Magic and Technology of MGLN

[Kikaifan]

...since when? I can't believe nobody called me on that way back when we were arguing about the effectiveness of cyborgs as a replacement for mages and I was going on about how they can't really be mass-produced because they require relics.

[Jimmy C]

Nobody ever said the Cyborgs needed the Relics.
I remember many arguments related to the practicality of mass-producing combat cyborgs, but Relics weren't part of the arguments.

[Avatar_notADV]

Regius as a man of "immense moral courage"? I don't know if I can swallow that.

Villain? Eh. We can grant him pure motives, or at least semi-pure, in his decision that combat cyborg troops were necessary and that the only way to get them accepted would be to institute a deniable, "black" program to develop and deploy them.

However, he falls down in a lot of other areas. He totally fails to keep Jail's ambitions in check. He's got no regular control or observation of Jail's operations. By the time Strikers has started, Jail is totally off the reservation, pursuing his own goals with forces of which Regius knows -nothing-. There's a good reason to keep a big cut-out between Jail's ops and what Regius knows about them, but it's not an admirable one - it's so that Regius can survive politically if Jail gets uncovered. In essence, Regius covered his own ass so far that he didn't see what was coming.

At the same time, Regius is essentially cast as "Hayate's bureaucratic opposition". Regius is why Hayate doesn't have a big force instead of two squads. Regius is why Hayate has to make do with her old friends and a few rookies, instead of battle-hardened veterans of superior magical ability. Regius actively stomped on anti-AMF work, which is essentially what Hayate's unit is ostensibly for. (The fact that it is, in effect, the TSAB's derringer we can leave aside for the moment.)

The latter decision makes no sense. If you've got a potential loose cannon, you don't take steps to make sure he's invulnerable, you actively work to limit the damage he can do if he goes rogue. You definitely don't make enemies of the small unit that can go in and clean up your mess (except to the extent that you're worried that they'll track down the connection to you; thus Regius' antipathy has a huge element of stupid cowardice in it, not moral courage.)

There's also some straight-up prejudice. Hayate, Nanoha, and Fate represent what Regius doesn't want the TSAB to be - which is to say, an organization that relies on a small number of talented people. Of course he doesn't want to work with them or lean on them too much. Unfortunately for him, they're also conflated with the stuff he needed to prevent Jail from getting out of hand... His failure to see that, however, is difficult to excuse. The man's a staff officer, not a grunt. He damn well ought to be able to see past his own nose on such issues.

A competent version of what Regius tried to do might have included attempting to sneak the Numbers into a military unit; they could then whip some drone butt, and then Regius could unveil their origin and trumpet their unusual effectiveness (not to mention his own far-sightedness in anticipating the threat that, er, he caused...) Instead he got himself and the portions of the TSAB leadership which supported him killed. Whoopsie.

[Keroko]

I've re-viewed the scene Subaru-scene, and it really is nothing more then a backflip kicking down the drone, followed by Subaru pinning down the drown and drilling into it before it got any chance to recover. We've seen plenty of examples of powerful mid-air attacks by non-flight capable mages and cyborgs, this one was even smoother then most of them.

Originally Posted by arkhangelsk

She was going into it at low speed.

An hydraulic pincer goes at slow speed, yet it can tear through even extremely tough metal like a knife through butter.

Speed =/= power. Not does Subaru, a cyborg, going into a drone at slow speed prove anything about the drones armor. In fact, I can just as easily reverse the observation and say that since Subaru, with all the power she demonstrated in the manga, needed to drill into the drone slowly, the armor is actually very strong.

Originally Posted by arkhangelsk

IIRC, it was already one of those Type I's more agile days. Not to mention one of the days when the AMF is simulated as most effective - you don't see many complete disablements of magic after this... You can actually make an argument that Shari made the drones more effective than they would in real life - a common training technique.

Even though Nanoha explicitly states that they would start of easy?

Originally Posted by arkhangelsk

But Subaru nominally can't fly, and also, Occam's Razor.

Random example: Neither can Nove, and yet she drop-kicked Subaru into a wall.

And it's funny to see you stating Occam's razor, considering you often complicate things a lot more then is really necessary.

Originally Posted by arkhangelsk

Intuitively, it seems that way. Objectively, however, the amount of force is more or less comparable depending on the amount of acceleration you exerted. From an energy perspective, however, the minimum amount of energy needed to stop a heavy object from falling to the ground is actually zero and in fact you "rob" the falling object of KE as you stop it, so in theory you can recover some of the energy for yourself. Keeping something suspended, similarly, takes force but no energy.

Really? I find it funny your books state that, yet when I try to stop a heavy object from falling, I find myself spending considerably more energy then vice versa. It certainly doesn't take me 'zero' energy to stop it.

Originally Posted by arkhangelsk

Regius merely had other priorities and didn't quite have time to finish. I don't know why everyone tries to show him up as an incompetent villain. He's actually a person of immense moral courage who actively tries to find a strategic solution to his problems.

Giving approval to a request to train forces in anti-AMF tactics takes time now? It's not like he's training them himself. Heck, after the incident Vita's suddenly called out to train Genya's squad.

Originally Posted by arkhangelsk

There's another way to see the "handful of squads". We've always been wondering where the heck everyone else was in the final battle. Here's an quickie idea: everyone else was actually there, and they started out with entire regiments or even divisions, but out of all those units, those "handful of squads" were the only scraps of them that were trainable to be even marginally effective in the AMF environment. Knowing this they just glued them into two composite units under Nakajima (ground) and Hayate (air) and sent them into the fray. How's that?

Nope. Genya directly states that his own squad is the only Ground Force squad fighting. The Air Force units were the ones Nanoha trained, and they were split up between the Cradle and supporting Genya.

Originally Posted by arkhangelsk

If Regius or any other high official went and did a study on "How hard would it be to get our guys to be competent in a AMF environment", one of the first things they'll do is go to the principal, just like Fate did, and we all know the conclusion (right or wrong) she gave - it might be possible to get limited, elite groups to be competent in it, but as a forcewide program the prospects are poor, and it sure would be nice if mass weapons were allowed! Thus, the situation, as the decisionmakers would have perceived it, mass weapons were arguably the only viable solution!

Then there obviously was a re-study somewhere behind the scenes, or something was Lost in Translation, as later on grunts did prove to be very effective fighting against drones.

Originally Posted by arkhangelsk

First you crow about the advantages of magic, then you say an "auto-caster" and a "mass handgun" have "virtually non-existent" differences? Which is it?

Virtually no difference as an auto-casting gun is limited by pulling the trigger and firing a burst. A mage has a Barrier Jacket, can raise shields, control their shots, fly, attain above-human speeds, create illusions, attain above human strength...

Need I go on? All an auto-caster does is give a non-magic user a gun that uses magic instead of bullets. It doesn't make the user a mage, nor does it put them on the same level as a mage.

Originally Posted by arkhangelsk

When your nation's police force disarms itself on the same principles and sticks solely to batons and tasers even in the face of enemies that can be defeated only with guns, call me.

I find it amusing you compare a weapon that can potentially level cities to 'tasers and batons' Regardless, Mass-based weaponry is outlawed, so Mid does witch-hunts to anyone without the proper license holding such a weapon. This is, in fact, a practice that is often done in many countries, and is not at all unusual nor a sign of paranoia.

Originally Posted by arkhangelsk

Yes, I'm reviewing it, same as you, and I applaud your SoD acceptance. But I think it is important to be able to recognize between when you are recomputing your information because you have made an analysis error of the data you had, when you are recomputing because of information that existed but you missed, and when you are recomputing b/c the author threw a new wrench into the works. And to kick the author instead of yourself when it is the latter case.

In case you hadn't noticed, I have been defending the author all this time. When Jimmy started going in the direction of 'Do the authors of Nanoha have any respect for their work?' I was the first to jump in their defense and say that it is not them who made the mistake, but we for misinterpreting their work.

I am blatantly blaming myself here.

Originally Posted by arkhangelsk

I suppose you meant Eisen's head in Gigant form, not Hammer form

Nope. Hammer form:

Originally Posted by arkhangelsk

Anyway, when Nanoha pumped energy, she didn't use wiring, nor were the simulated drones in the magi-tech simulator wired in. It is all wireless transmission.

In this case you have just solved the power issue. The power for the magi-rifles is transfered wirelesly.

Originally Posted by arkhangelsk

Well, obviously, the new solution says criminals use mass, which is not so horrible a change when you consider the degree of indoctrination needed to get to even the last criminal.

And it also means that, in order to retain a logical explanation of why Mid hasn't fallen into anarchy despite criminals using mass weaponry against, magic is not inferior to mass based weaponry. Mid knows how to fight them, and has the ability to do so.

Originally Posted by arkhangelsk

In that case, the Bureau values its "ideals" over the lives and health of its members (see the analysis near the top for why). Which is still pretty uh, paranoid / indoctrinated.

The method was effective. There is no reason to alter that. If America valued the lives of its civilians over its values, why didn't they just nuke Iraq?

Originally Posted by arkhangelsk

By the way, when did Runessa get her licence? Is it possible that her getting the licence is one of the post-Scarlietti reforms?

Good question, I'm not sure.

Originally Posted by arkhangelsk

Actually, you hadn't been able to show any reason that it is inaccurate, other than your dislikes and your inability to believe (what happened to your acceptance up there) that Middie concrete (technically a concrete-lookalike) can be weaker.

And personally, I can't think of any better way for an author to slip in this little tidbit about Midchildran concrete than by showing it ... repeatedly.

Except that this is common occurrence in animation, which is something you are unable to accept. Heck, remember when we compared framerates and got completely different answers? That shows how inaccurate that is without even taking animation techniques into the calculation!

I have repeatedly shown that framerate doesn't say anything in regards to speed when it comes to animation, and yet you still take them as accurate and alter the composition of concrete to match your views! How the hell do those buildings stay upright with concrete like that? Which of us is doing the most physics-defying views here?

You say I'm in denial and that the framerate calculations are accurate, I say you're in denial and that framerate calculations aren't accurate when it comes to animation. Pot. Kettle. Black.

You want proof that the buildings are made out of normal concrete? Well, the mere fact that they are still in one piece rather then dust is enough proof for me. When Subaru got kicked into a wall by Nove, they were below the main HQ. That thing should have collapsed long ago were it made of material as weak as you are suggesting.

Now if you'll excuse me, I'll be over there claiming that drones have a leight-weight but bullet resistant armor that can only be penetrated by magic. Since you have no way to disprove it, you'll just have to accept it.

[Wild Goose]

Lightweight bullet-resistant armor (which suggests kevlar or aramid fiber) merely means that you up the ante and get .50cal Tungsten AP rounds, Raufoss Mk 211 Mod 0 HE/API rounds, or just a bigger gun. Hispano-Suiza 20mm is a good option; lots of HS 20mm cannons made on Earth, which can be liberated and armed. Let's not forget also the RPG-7, which is also readily available.

Shaped charges area also a good way of penetrating armor. And they can even be handmade too.

[Keroko]

Actually, that was just me being snarky. If Ark can claim concrete that holds up entire buildings, items, and the people in it is made of some sort of nonexistant material that can't even stand up to a person getting tossed against it, rather then simply assume it's concrete and that his framerates are inaccurate, then I'm going to go ahead and say the Drones are made out of a material that is extremely light-weight and is impervious to bullets.

I hardly believe that, of course. I haven't even argued .50 calls being able to tear Type-I's to shreds. Nor do I believe Mid-Childan concrete to be any different from our concrete.

[arkhangelsk]

Originally Posted by Keroko

I've re-viewed the scene Subaru-scene, and it really is nothing more then a backflip kicking down the drone, followed by Subaru pinning down the drown and drilling into it before it got any chance to recover. We've seen plenty of examples of powerful mid-air attacks by non-flight capable mages and cyborgs, this one was even smoother then most of them.

Yes, and the fact she can pin down the drone, without flying ability to "anchor" herself, says a LOT about the whole affair.

An hydraulic pincer goes at slow speed, yet it can tear through even extremely tough metal like a knife through butter.

Speed =/= power. Not does Subaru, a cyborg, going into a drone at slow speed prove anything about the drones armor. In fact, I can just as easily reverse the observation and say that since Subaru, with all the power she demonstrated in the manga, needed to drill into the drone slowly, the armor is actually very strong.

Subaru ran pretty fast and threw Teana quite high in that episode, but how does that prove an incredibly high strength for the armor (sure, I'll grant it is tougher than what an ordinary human fist can move through) is not yet clear. Calculations?

Speed = observable power. A high speed shot, given a mass known to reasonable accuracy, provides an estimate of energy, force ... etc, independent of other scenes. When something is stopped or grinding slowly, there are two solutions to the problem, one is that the force being applied is as low as zero, and the second is that the resisting material is very strong (the force can be almost infinitely high). Where the material is known, or the force has been bounded by other information, you can estimate it, but from the scene alone you can't deduce this.

Even though Nanoha explicitly states that they would start of easy?

I see you aren't contesting my observation. Remember what I said about iffy descriptions? Nanoha's idea of real training is fighting with her and the rest of the officer team. Given this, I suppose fighting a bunch of uprated drones can be argued as "easy".

Random example: Neither can Nove, and yet she drop-kicked Subaru into a wall.

We've evaluated the speed of that kick, remember? What I said about observable two sections up also is important.

And it's funny to see you stating Occam's razor, considering you often complicate things a lot more then is really necessary.

Randomly deleting information from the scene is not how to satisfy Occam's Razor, if that's what you are asking.

Really? I find it funny your books state that, yet when I try to stop a heavy object from falling, I find myself spending considerably more energy then vice versa. It certainly doesn't take me 'zero' energy to stop it.

You are putting out effort (force, a bit different from "energy") to stop it, but any energy you expended is due to the mechanisms of your muscles, not because stopping it inherently takes energy in a thermodynamic sense.

Giving approval to a request to train forces in anti-AMF tactics takes time now? It's not like he's training them himself. Heck, after the incident Vita's suddenly called out to train Genya's squad.

Did any such requests even reach his table? He's a Lieutenant General. Requests from mere battalion commanders don't necessarily even reach his desk.

And the idea of Regius training them himself sounds a bit ... tough seeing he isn't a mage.

Nope. Genya directly states that his own squad is the only Ground Force squad fighting. The Air Force units were the ones Nanoha trained, and they were split up between the Cradle and supporting Genya.

Oh, going by Coldlight, or maybe Yesy, because there's no way you could have used a dictionary. Actually, Genya just said うちの連中, with うち being a term meaning roughly like "insider" or "our". It can mean anything Nakajima chooses to treat as "insider" or "our" at that moment - it almost certainly includes his batalion, but can also include up to the entire Ground Force (or even all of the TSAB) as うち.

As for the Air Force ... Nanoha probably trained a lot of them, so it is just as surmised, the few scraps of people that can do it are thrown into the fray.

Then there obviously was a re-study somewhere behind the scenes, or something was Lost in Translation, as later on grunts did prove to be very effective fighting against drones.

Actually, the Japanese says the same thing. Maybe something was lost in translation b/w Midchildran and Japanese, but we would never know it.

And I wouldn't call them "very effective". They were barely holding on, and they have a lot to thank because the drones plain weren't very aggressive - such as Ep24, where we see they weren't even advancing.

Virtually no difference as an auto-casting gun is limited by pulling the trigger and firing a burst. A mage has a Barrier Jacket, can raise shields, control their shots, fly, attain above-human speeds, create illusions, attain above human strength...

But you can still adjust power and all that, so that's something.

Need I go on? All an auto-caster does is give a non-magic user a gun that uses magic instead of bullets. It doesn't make the user a mage, nor does it put them on the same level as a mage.

If the autocaster was worth a darn, it might be. Then it'll become the Equalizer.

I find it amusing you compare a weapon that can potentially level cities to 'tasers and batons' Regardless, Mass-based weaponry is outlawed, so Mid does witch-hunts to anyone without the proper license holding such a weapon. This is, in fact, a practice that is often done in many countries, and is not at all unusual nor a sign of paranoia.

And they are unwilling to throw out such licenses even in times of need. As for the "level cities" part, yes, a very few mages can do that. But very, very few as far as we can see.

In case you hadn't noticed, I have been defending the author all this time. When Jimmy started going in the direction of 'Do the authors of Nanoha have any respect for their work?' I was the first to jump in their defense and say that it is not them who made the mistake, but we for misinterpreting their work.

I am blatantly blaming myself here.

Aah, the virtues (not) of blind faith.

In this case you have just solved the power issue. The power for the magi-rifles is transfered wirelesly.

The big one according to me is IIRC modulation. On a ship, it can generate those little cubes like the training plate can generate simulated Gadgets. However, if such projections can be useful over more than an extremely limited area (such as the reactor room or within building height), one would think they can summon a few to help defend their own precious butts.

And it also means that, in order to retain a logical explanation of why Mid hasn't fallen into anarchy despite criminals using mass weaponry against, magic is not inferior to mass based weaponry. Mid knows how to fight them, and has the ability to do so.

We see extremely limited proliferation (and in fact, we see very little of their capabilities - for all we know, they've been making it so far because the guns fire bullets that crawl at the speed of most magic rounds), and you conclude this? I note that they are unable to rid all weapons, and I see it as because they know they can't do it without suffering prohibitive casualties, so they are forced to compromise with their attitudes.

The method was effective. There is no reason to alter that. If America valued the lives of its civilians over its values, why didn't they just nuke Iraq?

Even if you argue it did turn out to be effective, the data we were given (and presumably any decisionmakers in universe would be given) preidcts otherwise. America has such things as PR to think about, and as I said, the closest thing we have to the TSAB's paranoia would be nukes.

Except that this is common occurrence in animation, which is something you are unable to accept. Heck, remember when we compared framerates and got completely different answers? That shows how inaccurate that is without even taking animation techniques into the calculation!

Actually, we just counted them differently. I counted more frames than you, but your frames were a little longer (30 vs 24 FPS), so really in the end it evened out. Besides, even if they were equally long, the estimate will still be off only by 20% or less, which is not a huge error in visual estimation.

I have repeatedly shown that framerate doesn't say anything in regards to speed when it comes to animation, and yet you still take them as accurate and alter the composition of concrete to match your views!

Actually, an animator that cannot show how fast something is using his animation is a failure, because he can't tell the story using the media he works with.

How the hell do those buildings stay upright with concrete like that? Which of us is doing the most physics-defying views here?

While the voice is VTLed, changing the framerate means violating another law of physics. So, you rationalize using the points you can see as anchors - which means 1) the exterior can be dented by relatively low velocity impactors and 2) somehow, Middie structures stay intact. For a quickie example, imagine that Midchildran structures actually relies on the strength of a relatively thin metal poles. Or it relies on the strength of exterior walls rather than pillars. And so on. But whatever happens, if you can accept ultrastrong materials on the strength of observation, then by extension you must accept the possibility of weaker materials on the strength of same.

You want proof that the buildings are made out of normal concrete? Well, the mere fact that they are still in one piece rather then dust is enough proof for me. When Subaru got kicked into a wall by Nove, they were below the main HQ. That thing should have collapsed long ago were it made of material as weak as you are suggesting.

Read above. Maybe the building was just lucky, and that wasn't a strength pillar. Or the strength loading parts are in deeper than you think. And so on. Lazily throwing out Anchor 1 is just wishful thinking.

Now if you'll excuse me, I'll be over there claiming that drones have a leight-weight but bullet resistant armor that can only be penetrated by magic. Since you have no way to disprove it, you'll just have to accept it.

Actually, for such a thing, the onus will be on you to prove it.

Originally Posted by Avatar_notADV

Regius as a man of "immense moral courage"? I don't know if I can swallow that.

I don't know whether you can swallow that, but a glimpse of what you wrote says your arguments are more against his competence rather than his moral courage. Since competence (by Terran standards) has hardly been the TSAB hallmark in StrikerS, that's hardly a big black mark against him. Anyway, let's take a closer look.

Villain? Eh. We can grant him pure motives, or at least semi-pure, in his decision that combat cyborg troops were necessary and that the only way to get them accepted would be to institute a deniable, "black" program to develop and deploy them.

My thoughts here.

However, he falls down in a lot of other areas. He totally fails to keep Jail's ambitions in check. He's got no regular control or observation of Jail's operations. By the time Strikers has started, Jail is totally off the reservation, pursuing his own goals with forces of which Regius knows -nothing-. There's a good reason to keep a big cut-out between Jail's ops and what Regius knows about them, but it's not an admirable one - it's so that Regius can survive politically if Jail gets uncovered. In essence, Regius covered his own ass so far that he didn't see what was coming.

That would be a more valid argument if Regius is the sole partner / controller of Jail, but in fact he's a junior partner (pawn?) with The High Council, to the point where he can't even get his friend's body back after his death - the High Council arranged for his body, and his subordinates' bodies to be left to Jail for rework. Also, Jail does a lot of work in far off, uninhabited boonie worlds without a real GF presence, so monitoring them won't be within his easy reach - he might somehow arrange surveillance but then he'll have to go at it in a roundabout way and ruffle feathers. It would mostly be the responsibility of the High Council to do the watching and monitoring.

Further, while we can all agree Regius could have handled his security a lot better that day, the same is arguably true of our heroines, and we don't think too ill of them for failing to do so. What is undeniably true is that as far as the TSAB's thinkers go, an attack on GF HQ is real, real, real low prob. Even if Regius did have Hayate and Co as his advisors, we already saw they would likely tell him the same thing (and being trained in the same schools and having very similar zeitgeists they won't be doing good security either). The best that might have happened is that they would allow Devices inside the building, but seeing that Nanoha and Fate weren't exactly depressed about that decision, it is quite probable that the security arrangements won't change one iota.

As for the linking between Regius and Jail, for one thing, covering your own butt, if not quite heroic, is quite understandable, so there's no need to turn him into a villian for this. Further, it is just good strategy. Presumably, if Jail hadn't moved, one day sooner or later Regius would have desposed of him, and then presumably he's going to try and make the use of Combat Cyborgs official. Suppose he pushes it through. Now, what if, at this critical moment, someone IDs his link with Jail? Not only would he be arrested, which is no small matter for most, but people (especially critics) tend to associate ideas with people (the basis of the ad hominem and various defamation attacks), so even after its implementation his arrest would endanger the idea for which he had fought for (and already lost a friend for) so long. Now, a visionary might be able to contemplate his own sacrifice, but endangering his own great idea as well? Hell NO!

At the same time, Regius is essentially cast as "Hayate's bureaucratic opposition". Regius is why Hayate doesn't have a big force instead of two squads.

To be fair to Regius, we are told this story through one-side only. And even here, we can already see that Hayate and HQ isn't trying very hard to work with Regius either. Instead, they sneak this little force under in such a way Regius didn't even find out about it until Ep12. Wow, this is such a good start for cooperation!

Sure, there was that small hijink about the prophecy, but the prophecy magic is apparently not very well understood (it is not scientifically substantiated) and even its user claims it isn't that accurate. Apparently, based on this one point of disagreement HQ and Church felt the need to abandon all further hope of cooperation and resort to subterfuge. Add to that the perceived insult of being forever posted dead last on mage allocation. Hmm... if I'm Regius, I don't want to work with them.

Regius is why Hayate has to make do with her old friends and a few rookies, instead of battle-hardened veterans of superior magical ability.

"Her old friends" are supposed to be some of the best there is around. And HQ is technically senior to GF, so one can say Hayate's "bureaucratic opposition" actually is due to HQ being unable / unwilling to really back its own people, and the whole mess is caused by HQ's failure to maintain passable relationships with one of its major subordinate commands.

Regius actively stomped on anti-AMF work, which is essentially what Hayate's unit is ostensibly for. (The fact that it is, in effect, the TSAB's derringer we can leave aside for the moment.)

As I've pointed out in my answer to Keroko, it is actually quite reasonable for Regius or any General, given the information he's likely to have gotten to have put AMF on the backburner - basically that anti-AMF training as a force-wide thing is unlikely to really succeed. Even if you argue, like Keroko does, that events proved this estimate wrong in the end, this would nevertheless be the information Regius had to work with.

The latter decision makes no sense. If you've got a potential loose cannon, you don't take steps to make sure he's invulnerable, you actively work to limit the damage he can do if he goes rogue.

Yes, and Regius is taking his own steps. But he's thinking long run, rather than short term plans with a low chance of success. Arguably, getting a force that can fight without being hampered by AMF is a better idea that trying to train the one you have to struggle the best they can in an unfavorable situation.

You definitely don't make enemies of the small unit that can go in and clean up your mess (except to the extent that you're worried that they'll track down the connection to you; thus Regius' antipathy has a huge element of stupid cowardice in it, not moral courage.)

Is he making enemies out of them? He has a personal dislike of Hayate, but you can't really blame him for that, since according to the records, she apparently is a former criminal who grabbed cores and even activated the book for personal purposes, and while we know that's false, he can only go with what he knows - this is hardly the record that causes people to like someone. He wants to check out this unit that suddenly popped up on his turf? Oh, how offensive! And he even invites them to come help maintain security at his party. That's so hostile.

If anything, I can argue that it is Hayate and Co that started this hostile stance, by first sneaking in and setting up shop, then briefing what seems to be some of his guys without inviting him. If they had wanted to be cooperative, Hayate and Co should have requested an audience with Regius, brought flowers and cookies (and probably booze) ... etc.

There's also some straight-up prejudice. Hayate, Nanoha, and Fate represent what Regius doesn't want the TSAB to be - which is to say, an organization that relies on a small number of talented people.

Which is in fact a very healthy attitude. A good organization will attract a percentage of potential heroes (ability & character). However, a good organization arguably should strive to avoid turning them into heroes. Not only might they form potentially dangerous, authority usurping personality cults, but ideally the organization should arrange things so as long as everyone follows the plan and does their job, the problems will be handled without heroics. Of course things go wrong from time to time, and it is to the organization's credit that at those times someone in the crowd will stand up and be a hero, but when that becomes the basic strategy, something is badly wrong. It is HQ's idea of relying on them, a possible carry down from the hero worship of "The Three Admirals", that is arguably flawed.

Of course he doesn't want to work with them or lean on them too much.

They don't want to work with him either.

Unfortunately for him, they're also conflated with the stuff he needed to prevent Jail from getting out of hand... His failure to see that, however, is difficult to excuse. The man's a staff officer, not a grunt. He damn well ought to be able to see past his own nose on such issues.

And so he posts them, or at least agrees to allow them to provide security in his great meeting. Where in fact they prove they aren't such hot sh*t after all, getting their own base run over, failing to stop the attack even with the advantage of believing the prophecy (which proves that believing or not believing might not be such a big deal after all) ... etc.

A competent version of what Regius tried to do might have included attempting to sneak the Numbers into a military unit; they could then whip some drone butt, and then Regius could unveil their origin and trumpet their unusual effectiveness (not to mention his own far-sightedness in anticipating the threat that, er, he caused...) Instead he got himself and the portions of the TSAB leadership which supported him killed. Whoopsie.

With your plan, first he would have to get some Numbers, which is tough seeing he doesn't have any yet. Then your plan will associate him with a controversial idea, which might affect his ability to get it passed. Thus it is far from clear that your proposal would be superior.

Finally, again, he's the junior partner, so it is more like the TSAB leadership got themselves and their most loyal public underling killed.

[Jimmy C]

Originally Posted by arkhangelsk

I note that they are unable to rid all weapons, and I see it as because they know they can't do it without suffering prohibitive casualties, so they are forced to compromise with their attitudes.

Not quite. I believe we talked about this before. But if the black market in mass weapons is large enough, it'd simply be too extensive for the Bureau to shut down. Manufacturing plants could be anywhere, any trader could be a gun runner, and none of that stuff registers on special scanners like magical items.

Also, Jail does a lot of work in far off, uninhabited boonie worlds without a real GF presence, so monitoring them won't be within his easy reach

We're sure if those ilegal labs in the boonie worlds were Jail's or someone else's. Regardless, his primary facility is on Mid, near the Cradle's burial site. There's also the matter that Reguis thought he knew where Jail's base was. He had a line to Jail, his people found the "research facility" empty.

And even here, we can already see that Hayate and HQ isn't trying very hard to work with Regius either. Instead, they sneak this little force under in such a way Regius didn't even find out about it until Ep12. Wow, this is such a good start for cooperation!

Didn't they? Can you be sure Hayate and HQ didn't already exhausted all other possible alternatives to putting forces on Mid before they set up RF6? How about giving them the benefit for a doubt first?
And you have to remember, the larger the force, the more likely GF would have made noise, and the less likely that force would have been in position when the shoe dropped.

Which is in fact a very healthy attitude. A good organization will attract a percentage of potential heroes (ability & character). However, a good organization arguably should strive to avoid turning them into heroes.

The TSAB has a unique dilema in that regards. For most other organizations, their "star" employees are worth 10 regular employees, tops. For the TSAB, their "star" mages, the highest ranking, most capable, are worth like 100 lesser mages. And since these stars are almost always deployed against the toughest, most dangerous problems the Bureau encounters, problems that would kill entire armies of lesser mages, the results are inevitable.

and it is to the organization's credit that at those times someone in the crowd will stand up and be a hero, but when that becomes the basic strategy, something is badly wrong. It is HQ's idea of relying on them, a possible carry down from the hero worship of "The Three Admirals", that is arguably flawed.

What else would you have the Bureau do? Mages are few in numbers, and highly ranking ones are the rarest of all. In a way, the worth of the Bureau's personnel is more like that of a creative organisation than a labor one. As I mentioned previously, it's hard for even the best solider, or the best baseball player, to be 10 times better than the rest. But, the best computer programmers, the best actors can be worth a hundred times their merely average peers. When your organization needs the talents of these people, you simply have to deal with them.

And so he posts them, or at least agrees to allow them to provide security in his great meeting.

Did it occur to you that perhaps he ordered them to be part of the security detail (not the whole thing) just so he could throw egg on their face in the attack he knew was coming?

Where in fact they prove they aren't such hot sh*t after all, getting their own base run over, failing to stop the attack even with the advantage of believing the prophecy

We've been through this before. Given what RF6 knew and their expected threats, there's simply no better way for them to deploy their forces to cover the threats they expected to face. In the alternative deployments we gamed in the past, the results were actually worse with the possible loss of Subaru along with Ginga and Vivio. You think you can do better? Post your deployment in the Millitary Discussion and let's go over it.

With your plan, first he would have to get some Numbers, which is tough seeing he doesn't have any yet.

I think Avatar was asking why didn't Reguis plan on sneaking in a few Cyborgs all along? We know several of the Numbers were operational by MC0068 or so, why not put them into the Bureau? After some promising missions, it could be revealed that their success was due to being Cyborgs. That might be enough to blunt resistance to the idea. Or not, but it's worth trying.

[AdmiralTigerclaw]

Regius had no ability to control Jail. By MC0078 he was completely out of control but playing 'docile' to prevent Regius and the Brains from going Apeshit until it was too late.

Gotta' remember that Regius had one idea, the Brains had another, and Jail had his own plans. The Brains trumped Regius', and Jail was planning to double cross everyone from the get go. There's no way Regius could have gotten some cyborgs into the Bureau... At least, not without making things WORSE.

Anyway... Regius knew something was up and was forwarding his own countermeasure... the Einjarijar... Which someone mentioned was a bunch of giant cannons. Sounds to me like a Surface to Orbit (STO) defensive countermeasure... The kind that would have made a very bad day for the cradle.

Unfortunately, Jail was too far ahead with his time table and Regius' hands had been tied by the Brains doing their Armchair Commanding. (I think they watched Evangelion one time too many... they even tried to pull of the VOICE ONLY monolith bit...)

Jail's use of drones for just about everything up until his three major assaults would more or less quallify as effective misdirection. By the time Regius even realized Jail was well out of his control, it was way too late.


As a side note...

Some cyborgs DID get into the Bureau... Two of them. Pity old Reg didn't have anything flagged so he could recieve info on it. I'm sure he'd have been tickled pink to know about Ginga and Subaru early enough to take advantage of it.

[arkhangelsk]

Originally Posted by Jimmy C

Not quite. I believe we talked about this before. But if the black market in mass weapons is large enough, it'd simply be too extensive for the Bureau to shut down. Manufacturing plants could be anywhere, any trader could be a gun runner, and none of that stuff registers on special scanners like magical items.

It is one thing to have a thriving mass-weapons black market, especially if most of what gets exchanged are small-fry like handguns. It is another when entire worlds called Orusia seems to be at the game.

We're sure if those ilegal labs in the boonie worlds were Jail's or someone else's. Regardless, his primary facility is on Mid, near the Cradle's burial site. There's also the matter that Reguis thought he knew where Jail's base was. He had a line to Jail, his people found the "research facility" empty.

And what can Regius find out. If he finds out about Cradle, as ATC suggests that may be part of the motivation for Einharjar, and without the High Council agreeing he can't really make a decisive move on Jail anyway. As for the rest, he's making Cyborgs like he's asked to, so Regius can't shut him down on that ground, and the Gadgets can be justified as support for the Cyborgs.

In another direction, he may have been affected by what happened to Zest. If he places teams to observe Jail too closely, they might decide to attack prematurely (control and discipline are not high on the virtues of the TSAB). Or Jail might counterdetect the observing team and decide to get rid of them (as is his "right" as a criminal). Either way the battle goes, it is very bad news for him.

Didn't they? Can you be sure Hayate and HQ didn't already exhausted all other possible alternatives to putting forces on Mid before they set up RF6? How about giving them the benefit for a doubt first?

No, of course we cannot be sure. However, generally we don't give Regius a lot of slack, so let's take that in another direction. When we stop handing out free credits just because they are the protagonists, and seeing what credits we actually got to observe, we start seeing things another way.

And you have to remember, the larger the force, the more likely GF would have made noise, and the less likely that force would have been in position when the shoe dropped.

And isn't basing the plan on trying to get under GF's radar a sign of bad faith in the first place to say the least?

The TSAB has a unique dilema in that regards. For most other organizations, their "star" employees are worth 10 regular employees, tops. For the TSAB, their "star" mages, the highest ranking, most capable, are worth like 100 lesser mages. And since these stars are almost always deployed against the toughest, most dangerous problems the Bureau encounters, problems that would kill entire armies of lesser mages, the results are inevitable.

What else would you have the Bureau do? Mages are few in numbers, and highly ranking ones are the rarest of all. In a way, the worth of the Bureau's personnel is more like that of a creative organisation than a labor one. As I mentioned previously, it's hard for even the best solider, or the best baseball player, to be 10 times better than the rest. But, the best computer programmers, the best actors can be worth a hundred times their merely average peers. When your organization needs the talents of these people, you simply have to deal with them.

I see that you agree that this is hardly the ideal way to do business, and can only be justified as making the best out of a bad situation. Now, Regius and the High Council are working out their own plans to break out of this rather dreary (made even more dreary for Regius because those few mages apparently don't go to him) situation, while HQ is (as far as we can see) basking in the rather flimsy security of the current system. If for nothing else, the fact they are willing to at least try something in a system that otherwise reeks of stagnation is laudatory.

Did it occur to you that perhaps he ordered them to be part of the security detail (not the whole thing) just so he could throw egg on their face in the attack he knew was coming?

One would hope if he knew the thing was coming he might have deployed differently.

We've been through this before. Given what RF6 knew and their expected threats, there's simply no better way for them to deploy their forces to cover the threats they expected to face. In the alternative deployments we gamed in the past, the results were actually worse with the possible loss of Subaru along with Ginga and Vivio. You think you can do better? Post your deployment in the Millitary Discussion and let's go over it.

Improvement #1: Keep weapons close to hand. Good security response depends on time, and wasting the first minutes trying to rendezvous and deliver weapons to your most powerful units is a bad, bad idea.

Just making that ONE change could easily have turned a lot of the battle for the better. For example, Nanoha, Fate and/or Signum, they might have engaged Tre and Sette. Meanwhile, the Forwards might have been able to engage the Ground component of the team instead of disengaging. Seeing they managed to win one week later scattered, there's a reasonable chance they could have won the fight.

Improvement #2: Improve the defenses of home base. Hayate stays at home like usual. For a meeting between the worlds, a "2nd Ground Commander" is extremely low ranked, and Regius doesn't love her anyway. She isn't much in close combat but there's some uninhabited area around the base, so what she could have done when Otto and Deed comes in is shower them with bombardment. For sure that would at least slow them up.

Also (and this should have been done eons ago), call up Arf. Oh sure, Fate is all grown up now, but surely, she can still use some protection when her combat ability is shafted to AA - energy should have been reallocated - if anything, get around the stupid limiter limitation by puting almost everything into the familiar (of course, Arf is not part of RF6, but a civvie). If 9-year-old AAA Fate needs protection, so does 19-year-old AA Fate Needless to say, she "visits" and stays at HB on that day, and turns the defense from a Swiss cheese to a medium cheddar (to borrow Jon Parshall's description of Genda's Midway search plan).

A third improvement. Consider exploiting the possibilities of hololand (think of Picard using the holodeck on the Borg in ST:FC). When Otto and Deed attack, hide into the vast expanses of hololand and set up a sim that involves a lot of holowalls and holoweapons. They'll come through eventually, but it'll buy you time.

[al103]

Originally Posted by Keroko

Nope. Genya directly states that his own squad is the only Ground Force squad fighting. The Air Force units were the ones Nanoha trained, and they were split up between the Cradle and supporting Genya.

Ehm... He actually states that they are front line, which not excludes other units as support from the rear.

PS. About framerates... I already noted that framerates that should be counted are in ep2 of A's, where combat is given from Nanoha's POW... but i'll give counterexample. A's ep1 - about 21:20, where Nanoha is thrown to the wall - she shouldn't be at the wall at such speed, but dropped on earth surface - much less broke that wall by impact. So normal framerates show us much much slower action that it really is, with rare cases as A's ep2 and Strikers ep24 when we can see somewhat closer to real speed.

[Avatar_notADV]

You know, I typed up a big response, sat on it for a bit, and then thought... Ark's got a good point here.

There's LOTS of areas where Nanoha and Hayate screw up by the numbers, and we write it off as "well, the writers don't know jack about military affairs, so they can't have been expected to get it right." Regius, though, he's essentially in the same situation, but people don't take it easy on him (because he's mean to Hayate, and that means he is evil! Or maybe not, huh?)

The biggest problem with Regius is that he betrayed men under his command. Not just Zest and Quint, but Hayate and all of RF6 too, even if he's not their direct superior. That's not something you can wave off as a "whoops" mistake, that's a -sin-. In a way, it's similar to what Graham did in A's, but Graham at least owned up to it, knew he was doing wrong in a way that he couldn't expect to be forgiven for, even if it was the only way that he could see to prevent a great evil. There was a humility there.

Regius doesn't have that humility. He doesn't expect to crucify himself to get his plan across; he expects to be vindicated. But he doesn't deserve vindication; even if he was right about combat cyborgs (and, frankly, they're effective; possibly not enough to justify the ethical concerns, but they're effective enough), who the hell could follow a man like that afterwards?

But that's not necessarily something for which the writers have a proper appreciation. If you don't understand military honor (and dishonor), then maybe Regius COULD have expected to pull it off, and he just fell short in the planning stages.

We came to the conclusion long ago that the writers specifically contrived the base-attack scenario to take Nanoha, Fate, and Hayate out of the combat picture but still leave everyone else in. Of course it's kind of fake and artificial. (I could buy it if it was a ceremonial thing - "okay, everybody leave your devices with your second and let's come in here and talk", as a holdover from days where that might have been necessary to keep the meeting from dissolving into a bloodbath. But they never indicated anything like that, or indeed any knowledge that it was unreasonable... sigh.)

[arkhangelsk]

Originally Posted by al103

Ehm... He actually states that they are front line, which not excludes other units as support from the rear.

PS. About framerates... I already noted that framerates that should be counted are in ep2 of A's, where combat is given from Nanoha's POW... but i'll give counterexample. A's ep1 - about 21:20, where Nanoha is thrown to the wall - she shouldn't be at the wall at such speed, but dropped on earth surface - much less broke that wall by impact. So normal framerates show us much much slower action that it really is, with rare cases as A's ep2 and Strikers ep24 when we can see somewhat closer to real speed.

That's basically Keroko's argument. The problem is that the few scenes that are fast are NEVER voiced, and the ones that are slow are not only in the majority, but they are consistently voiced. In a scientific sense, it means the slow scene must be the true scene, because voices have frequencies and phonemes that lock down the plausible flow of time to very narrow limits so to say it is NOT introduces a new implausibility. Thus, we are obliged to come with a solution that somehow squares the two facts that you mention, the crawling speed and the damage. This can be done, for example, with misfiring active defenses and the like.

[Arkeus]

uh?

Not sure i get it. Isn't it *normal* that mid-ranked officer take of their weapons when meeting with political figures?

I may be wrong, but to me, it felt normal, especially as it's possible for RF6 to make a coup if they wished to, or some such.

just basic security.

Originally Posted by arkhangelsk

That's basically Keroko's argument. The problem is that the few scenes that are fast are NEVER voiced, and the ones that are slow are not only in the majority, but they are consistently voiced. In a scientific sense, it means the slow scene must be the true scene, because voices have frequencies and phonemes that lock down the plausible flow of time to very narrow limits so to say it is NOT introduces a new implausibility. Thus, we are obliged to come with a solution that somehow squares the two facts that you mention, the crawling speed and the damage. This can be done, for example, with misfiring active defenses and the like.

Or maybe you can remember the hundreds of films and animes where there is a countdown, which are voiced, but the countdowns doesn't match with real time speed.

Or maybe remember that even in MGLN and A's, heavy damage was done to earth without problem.

Or maybe remember that those scenes aren't voiced to show the speed.

oh well... a more reasonable argument though

[arkhangelsk]

Originally Posted by Arkeus

uh?

Not sure i get it. Isn't it *normal* that mid-ranked officer take of their weapons when meeting with political figures?

I may be wrong, but to me, it felt normal, especially as it's possible for RF6 to make a coup if they wished to, or some such.

Somehow, I don't think officers are supposed to take off their weapons when they are providing security. So, for example, it may be reasonable for Hayate to not have her Schwertkreuz, but certainly not for Nanoha and Fate who were providing security to not have their weapons.

As for countdowns, you can certainly count down without matching a one count to one second rate.

Regardless of the intentions of the author, in the scientific sense (and remember that we are doing scientific analysis of the show here), voice has consequences in terms of time expenditure. It is one of the reasons why the last 5 minutes of Namek was such a joke.

[krisslanza]

Originally Posted by AdmiralTigerclaw

Some cyborgs DID get into the Bureau... Two of them. Pity old Reg didn't have anything flagged so he could recieve info on it. I'm sure he'd have been tickled pink to know about Ginga and Subaru early enough to take advantage of it.

I wonder if he did actually. I'm pretty sure any of the doctors who looked at them knew along with people in RF6 perhaps... And there was technically a third too

[Jimmy C]

Originally Posted by arkhangelsk

If he places teams to observe Jail too closely, they might decide to attack prematurely (control and discipline are not high on the virtues of the TSAB).

It's called "initiative" you know. I thought you'd like Bureau personnel to actually use their brains and decide when to act instead of needing ot be kicked into action by their commanders.

And isn't basing the plan on trying to get under GF's radar a sign of bad faith in the first place to say the least?

Like I said, we were never shown if all other avenues were exhausted before. Or perhaps they had precedent from previous attempts to base HQ forces on Mid that Regius would be less than receptive to the idea.

One would hope if he knew the thing was coming he might have deployed differently.

That's assuming he's interested in completely defeating such an attack. What if his original plan was the HQ would come under attack by drones that would be driven off by the Cyborgs?

Improvement #1: Keep weapons close to hand.

Not going to happen. That's GFHQ's rules and RF6 is in no position to argue. Or did you forget that part? Why do you think they gave their devices to the Forwards in the first place?

Improvement #2: Improve the defenses of home base.

And where are they going to get those improvements from? They've already gotten all they can get past GF and Regius for RF6.

Hayate stays at home like usual.

That doesn't matter because, unless her limiter is released, Hayate is only an A-rank. And the only person who can release her limiter is Carim, who will be out of contact once the attack begins. Chrono having used up his release permission already.
End result, no improvement and Hayate could probably be so badly injured, she's out of the final battle.
Else Zafira and Shamal will be critically injured protecting her and be out of the final battle too. At best, they'll all recover in time to do the things they did in that battle.
It doesn't change the fact that this battle still goes down the tubes for RF6.

call up Arf. Needless to say, she "visits" and stays at HB on that day, and turns the defense from a Swiss cheese to a medium cheddar

If Fate's dialed down to AA, I don't think she really can send the excess to Arf. Since that's such a blatant exploit of a loophole, I doubt it's possible.
Unless her presence can turn the tide and drive off all the attackers, that's no improvement. The base still gets trashed. Vivio still gets captured. And Arf is likely to be as badly injured as Zafira by the end of it, so there's an extra casualty now for no extra gain.
Once again, no improvement, extra casualty.

Had Hayate or Arf actually been at RF6's base during the attack in the series, I think you'd complain about them being as useless as Shamal and Zafira at defense.

Consider exploiting the possibilities of hololand (think of Picard using the holodeck on the Borg in ST:FC). When Otto and Deed attack, hide into the vast expanses of hololand and set up a sim that involves a lot of holowalls and holoweapons.

You sure are willing the hypothesize whatever you need to strengthen your arguments while crushing other people's brutally. I think you're overrating the capabilities of the training field, I doubt holoweapons will be of much use against the Cyborgs, if the field's even capable of generating them in the first place. Not to mention, if they hole up in there and Jail's forces cut the power to the field, they will have no cover. There's also the fact that the drones had their AMF full up during this attack, you saw how it overwhelmed GFHQ's shields, how long do you think the field will last under that assault?
No improvement, leads to even faster defeat once they loose power.

They'll come through eventually, but it'll buy you time.

Time to do what? The reinforcements returning from GFHQ got intercepted, and everyone else is tied up back there. By the time they realise that Erio, Caro and Fate aren't enough to save their base, it's already too late to send more people.
End result: no improvement in outcome.

To be considered better than RF6's performance, you need to deny at least one of Jail's objectives in the attacks:
Wreck GFHQ
Wreck RF6's base
Capture at least one Type-0
Capture Vivio
Bonus objective 1, no extra casualties
Bonus objective 2, the new deployment makes you, ark, go "yeah! they kicked Jail's ass!" Instead of "They couldn't save their base or their friends, what losers"

The only thing I can think of is Nanoha or Fate being paranoid enough to set up an emergency teleport to send Vivio to Earth in the event of an attack on the base. That's extremely low-probability, they have more important things to spend their scarce resources on. Even if they did that, it might not be usable once the base is AMF'd.

Originally Posted by Krisslanza

I wonder if he did actually. I'm pretty sure any of the doctors who looked at them knew along with people in RF6 perhaps...

He might have. Since Zest still considered Regius a friend until he died, he might have told Regius about Quint adpoting the two Type-0s she freed. That might be enough for Regius to keep an eye on them. The thing was, neither of them ever used their ISes until StrikerS it seems. So that's not helpful to his agenda.

And there was technically a third too

And who would that be?

[krisslanza]

Originally Posted by Jimmy C

And who would that be?

I'll spoiler it to be safe.

Spoiler:

Due was in the TSAB as a double agent remember? She's a combat cyborg ;p

[Jimmy C]

Uh huh. And that one wasn't doing anything to help his agenda either.

[Comartemis]

If Fate's dialed down to AA, I don't think she really can send the excess to Arf. Since that's such a blatant exploit of a loophole, I doubt it's possible.

This depends on how exactly the limiters function in relation to familiars. While I agree it's doubtful Fate could just supercharge Arf with her excess mana, I'm not certain whether Arf would be affected by Fate's limiter. Pre-timeskip I think we figured her to be AAA, equal to Fate's level, so post-timeskip she may be an S-rank in her own right. This assumes, of course, that she can power up and ditch the loli form if she nees to; if she can't then she's probably not even remotely combat-capable since her loli form is supposed to consume as little of Fate's mana as possible. Since she's serving in a civilian role she wouldn't be subject to limiters. She and Yuuno could probably have made a significant difference if they'd both been present at RF6. I'd like to see Otto try to break through Yuuno's shields with that puny little hand blaster of hers.

But then again...

Unless her presence can turn the tide and drive off all the attackers, that's no improvement. The base still gets trashed. Vivio still gets captured.

Don't forget, Sein spends most of the battle on standby, apparently swimming on circles waiting to support her sisters if they need it. Even if the RF6 assault force is driven off, Sein can still swoop in and pluck Vivio right out of the base (at the cost of losing Cinque, but I don't think Jail would mind a casualty/capture if it was the only way to secure his target).