[Game] Umineko no Naku Koro ni Chiru - Ep. 5 End of the golden witch

[TeeHee]

Originally Posted by Knicknevin

So where is Beatrice? What is she doing? And what drove her into the shadows of this game?

Beatrice keeps her promises, remember? That's the only thing I'm sure about.

By that, I mean Battler (and Erika) discovered the gold AND publicly announced it before anything could happen.

[Knicknevin]

Originally Posted by TeeHee

Beatrice keeps her promises, remember? That's the only thing I'm sure about.

By that, I mean Battler (and Erika) discovered the gold AND publicly announced it before anything could happen.

True, but Beatrice usually makes her presence known around dinnertime of the first day. Granted, in Episode 4 it was 'Kinzo' who Maria claimed gave her an umbrella, but given the level of trust between Maria and Beatrice, this was probably still Beato's doing. Maria is pretty stubborn when it comes to protecting Beatrice, and honestly everyone questioned the story of Kinzo giving her the umbrella alot less.

But in this game, there was no letter, no umbrella, and nobody claimed they met Beatrice coming into the mansion or whatever. Beatrice had gone to ground even before the epitaph was solved. Did Erika's arrival have something to do with it? Like, for example, Beatrice didn't want an outsider caught up in her game, or maybe Erika simply intimidated her?

One thing I feel pretty confidant of is that Beatrice took part in forming whatever plan the family came up with regarding the faked deaths etc.

Since Krauss had the same fake blood scattered around his room as the rest, either he was part of the ploy too, or else it was meant to look like he was.



I suppose the first questions we need to answer are- who came up with the plan? Who knew about the plan and were going along with it? And are the planner and the killer the same person?

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by TeeHee

Beatrice keeps her promises, remember? That's the only thing I'm sure about.

By that, I mean Battler (and Erika) discovered the gold AND publicly announced it before anything could happen.

I keep my promises. If you solve the riddle of the epitaph, you should be able to reach the Golden Land. When you have, the ceremony will be over. No more people will die.

Beatrice didn't limit that promise to "I won't kill anyone anymore", she said "no more people will die". Besides that Beatrice will take the blame of any murder that happens in Rokkenjima, the same way Gaap takes the blame for anything that disappears. We have clearly seen that in the case of the child of 19 years before.
If someone dies it's Beatrice's fault, that's how her magic works, and it's the very point of the game to demonstrate it isn't the witch's fault. If you demonstrate that the witch will die.

[Rei-Tenshi]

Random Question:

When Erika was talking about the most number of deaths in a mystery novel, Piece-Battler pointed out her mistake. Was this Bern-Battler in control? It couldn't have been Meta-Battler because he wasn't in control at this point. However, Lambda laughed at Bernkastel, who as the game described, was "struck with humiliation".

So... Who was controlling Piece-Battler at this point?
It couldn't have been Battler, and Bern making that move would just embarrass herself and Erika.

[Jan-Poo]

It was Lambdadelta, the same thing applies when piece-Battler makes Kinzo and Beatrice escape from Kinzo's study. It appears that Bern and Lambda had fun passing Battler's control to each other. Anyway since Bern elected Erika has her own piece, Battler's control is only given to Bern as a favor from Lambda.

[Marion]

Lambda seems to have control on the 2nd day. Bern pretty much used him for solving the epitaph with Erika. Technically speaking you don't see Erika acting all crazy and lunatic like until the 2nd day. She acts smug and all, but the only real signs of crazy show up when she tells Battler to get out of the way so she could she the bodies.

[Judoh]

Maybe we can look at episode 5 like this. The fake death plot and and the killing plot were totally unrelated. In previous episodes no matter who the culprit was there was always one family member they wanted to fall back on (Natsuhi, Rosa, Eva, etc). My best guess is that in the first twilight the killer only managed to kill two or three people before the gold was announced ( not enough to think of a fallback character). The bodies had already been hidden to be found later like in previous episodes. The plot against Natsuhi was just a game that the cousins and Rosa played for fun. It was a spur of the moment kind of thing, once they got into it they didn't want to stop. When they got really far into the plan and faked their deaths (with a little help from lying Battler) they ended up going through with it without ever hearing about the gold being found. The real culprit just played along with the Natsuhi plot knowing full well that he/she never killed the cousins and Rosa. So in episode 5 the culprit was just as deceived as the detective.

So there you go somebody killed a couple people before the gold was found, but the fake deaths were just a coincidence.

Edit: Sure Beatrice keeps her promises, but if Beatrice is never introduced and the culprit isn't pretending to be her in episode 5 than there are no promises to be kept.

[Jan-Poo]

There is just one big question to answer. If that was just the cousin's plot, how did they manage to deceive everyone? The way the have died doesn't leave much doubt about their dead/alive status. You'd have to think that everyone including the adults were conspiring as well. But in that case how could Eva be such a good actress? And more importantly how could she beat Natsuhi without anyone trying to block her? Even if Battler was the only one to know, wasn't that the right moment to say hey guys sorry it was just a prank. It was getting too much serious at that point.

Edit: Sure Beatrice keeps her promises, but if Beatrice is never introduced and the culprit isn't pretending to be her in episode 5 than there are no promises to be kept.

I repeat, Beatrice promised "no more people will die", she didn't promise "I will not kill anyone". George, Maria, Jessica, Rosa, Genji and Krauss died. it was confirmed in red.

[Judoh]

I don't think Eva was acting I think she really thought her beloved George was dead, but they didn't REALLY die until later. After that the only question is how did they get Nanjo to lie about the autopsy?

[Tyabann]

Originally Posted by Judoh

I don't think Eva was acting I think she really thought her beloved George was dead, but they didn't REALLY die until later. After that the only question is how did they get Nanjo to lie about the autopsy?

You'll notice that Eva goes from screaming at random people in tears after she learns of George's 'death'... right back to her usual self during the entire study sequence. It isn't normal for her... remember Ep3?

Pretty sure she was faking... up until, perhaps the final interrogation, where they've probably found the corpses.

[Judoh]

Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon

You'll notice that Eva goes from screaming at random people in tears after she learns of George's 'death'... right back to her usual self during the entire study sequence. It isn't normal for her... remember Ep3?

Pretty sure she was faking... up until, perhaps the final interrogation, where they've probably found the corpses.

Well I remember that she screamed at random people crying in episode 3. Either way we need to explain how they got Nanjo involved in it. Maybe Kumasawa helped a little to convince him, she likes jokes and pranks. I wouldn't be surprised if the blood was from a mackerel. In fact maybe the blood in the dining room in episode 1 can be explained with that too!

[Antera Caramichael]

It is really easy: the servant and Nanjo were threatened of obstruction against justice (or whatever it is called, well in brief: Prison =p)...

[Judoh]

Originally Posted by Antera Caramichael

It is really easy: the servant and Nanjo were threatened of obstruction against justice (or whatever it is called, well in brief: Prison =p)...

good job!

[Judoh]

I repeat, Beatrice promised "no more people will die", she didn't promise "I will not kill anyone". George, Maria, Jessica, Rosa, Genji and Krauss died. it was confirmed in red.

Was this promise ever affirmed in the human world? The only thing that maybe sounds like that promise in the human world is that she promised not to "collect interest" in episode 1. So can we even use that red for anything or is it just useless to begin with?

[Jan-Poo]

Was this promise ever affirmed in the human world? The only thing that maybe sounds like that promise in the human world is that she promised not to "collect interest" in episode 1. So can we even use that red for anything or is it just useless to begin with?

In the human world? In the human world red can't be used and any promise would be pointless.
There is no telling that Beatrice's letter were written by Beatrice herself.

But we have Beatrice in the meta world that said in red that she keeps her promises and she promised that no one would die anymore if they reach the golden land.

t is really easy: the servant and Nanjo were threatened of obstruction against justice (or whatever it is called, well in brief: Prison =p)...

You don't need a doctor nor an autopsy to tell that a person whose neck has been almost completely slit is dead.

[Judoh]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

In the human world? In the human world red can't be used and any promise would be pointless.
There is no telling that Beatrice's letter were written by Beatrice herself.

But we have Beatrice in the meta world that said in red that she keeps her promises and she promised that no one would die anymore if they reach the golden land.

That doesn't answer my question. She said in red that she doesn't break her promises. My point was that if nobody is aware of that promise in the human world what makes that red text useful? In other words why should we even keep it in mind?

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

You don't need a doctor nor an autopsy to tell that a person whose neck has been almost completely slit is dead.

If your still hung up on that than I guess you haven't read episode 5's ??? . If you haven't than you definitely shouldn't look at these spoilers...

Spoiler for episode 5 ???:

[LyricalAura]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

There is just one big question to answer. If that was just the cousin's plot, how did they manage to deceive everyone? The way the have died doesn't leave much doubt about their dead/alive status. You'd have to think that everyone including the adults were conspiring as well. But in that case how could Eva be such a good actress? And more importantly how could she beat Natsuhi without anyone trying to block her? Even if Battler was the only one to know, wasn't that the right moment to say hey guys sorry it was just a prank. It was getting too much serious at that point.

I don't know that a great deal of weight can be placed on anything in that scene. It happened after the meta trial, and Erika spent parts of it ranting at Natsuhi about red text, so there's a pretty good chance the whole thing was a post-midnight fantasy narrated by Bernkastel.

[Akuryou]

Maybe because Hideyoshi was killed, and that wasn't in their 'prank' plan? Or at least Eva didn't know about it.

[Knicknevin]

Originally Posted by Akuryou

Maybe because Hideyoshi was killed, and that wasn't in their 'prank' plan? Or at least Eva didn't know about it.

I have doubts that he was killed at all. If he was, it certainly wasn't in the guest room. When he was 'killed', Natsuhi was in the only hiding place that the family didn't check, and she listened carefully for movement. There wasn't any. The killer didn't make a move or a sound, and unless the entire family was in on the murder, he or she couldn't have gotten out of the room without anyone noticing.

The windows were locked and the shutters closed. The door was chained. And noone was found hiding in the room. Natsuhi didn't notice the presence of another person besides Hideyoshi. And for some reason everyone besides Erika made a point not to look in the closet. And prevented her from looking in there.

If you eliminate the impossible.... right?



And, I can see Rosa and the cousins going in on some kind of act. But there was the same blood in Krauss's bed. And Genji was 'killed' as well. My impression is that the killer knew of the plan, and abducted Krauss from his room after he finished preparing his own 'death'. Or maybe the killer planted the 'blood' on the bed to make it look like Krauss was in on the act when he actually wasn't.

So what was Genji's angle? I have a hard time seeing him doing something like that for fun. And the only people who could order him to do something so strange... were probably the two masters of the island- Krauss, and Beatrice. Unless he was bribed or blackmailed.

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by Judoh

That doesn't answer my question. She said in red that she doesn't break her promises. My question was that if nobody is aware of that promise in the human world what makes that red text useful? In other words why should we even keep it in mind?

I don't get what kind of logic you are following. We shouldn't we keep in mind something that wasn't said in the human world, all the red text are said in the metaworld.
Beatrice made a promise, and meta Battler is aware of that. Beatrice made that promise to meta Battler.

Originally Posted by Judoh

If your still hung up on that than I guess you haven't read episode 5's ??? . If you haven't than you definitely shouldn't look at these spoilers...

Don't worry I've read EP5 since the japanese release. The blue text is not relevant, it's just a theory and nothing else. Hell! If you'd have to believe to all the blue that were said there you'd have to believe that Battler was the killer, even though it was denied in red earlier...
As for the red text that's also not relevant because there has been two who were said a lot before that:

anyone looking at George, Jessica, Maria, Rosa, or Genji's corpses could confirm at a glance that they are dead

At a glance, anyone could confirm that these corpses are dead, so it is absolutely impossible that they are just people playing dead.

These reds were told by Virgilia before the second twilight. Of course this happened after they disappeared. Who was Virgilia trying to trick?
But this is hardly relevant.

The point is that at the time of the discovery unless you claim that everyone was in conspiracy the bodies of George Maria Rosa and Jessica were inside the cousin's room and visible. How they managed to trick everyone into believing they were dead? Or in the case you claim that they were fake corpses, how exactly Eva was tricked by a fake corpse? She can't recognize her own son anymore?