Penguin Drum - Episode 20 Discussion / Poll

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by Narzia

I don't think Kanba, and Kenzan for that matter, are evil. Well, uh, at least not completely. They just have - ah - questionable methods of doing things for the greater good. After all he is against the child broiler.

Blowing the subway away along with all the people there is a little more than "questionable" to me though.

They might no be evil, but they're still murderers, and there's no way to justify that IMO.

Having said that though, I do think the show is trying to make the viewer not to lose sight of the social problems those terrorist bring to the forefront in the first place: society is shit, that is true (also, the child broiler is probably a metaphor of that social shittiness and not a real place. let's keep that possibility in mind)

[Kirarakim]

Originally Posted by Narzia

So KIGA is the new name of the Penguin Force. It should've been obvious, seeing as Aum changed their name too.

Ah I didn't even think of that but that does make sense.

I really do wonder what Ikuhara ultimately wants to say about the Sarin Gas Attacks, because I do think he wants to say something.

[DragoonKain3]

Still not sold on Kanba and Masako being real siblings. For instance, why wasn't Kanba living with them in episode 16? Why Mario for the successor and not Kanba? Why no mention of Kanba being a Natsume from the Grandfather? Lots of pieces do not fit, but the letter from eps 16 did say 'can't wait for the time the FOUR of us will live together again', so it's not like it doesn't have any merit if we take out the mom.

Honestly can't say anything about Kanba/Masako as of right now, but man, Ikuhara after selling me RingoXSho for like three quarters of the entire series, makes it seem so natural that I should be rooting for HimariXSho within the span of an episode. Kinda makes sense now as to why they didn't explicitly have Sho return Ringo's feelings... much more drama this way.

Finally, can't still decide if child broiler is meant to be a state of mind of the person, who thinks they'll never amount to anything and thus become 'invisible' to society. Or if it merely is just euphemism to a child committing suicide. Hmm, gotta think more on this...

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by DragoonKain3

Finally, can't still decide if child broiler is meant to be a state of mind of the person, who thinks they'll never amount to anything and thus become 'invisible' to society. Or if it merely is just euphemism to a child committing suicide. Hmm, gotta think more on this...

Definitely the former, IMO. It fits with Ikuhara's take on Japanese society and shit. It also fits with the load of Murakami references in the show.

[DSPaul]

IMO, The Child broiler represents multiple things. It's foster care, or the special needs class, or juvenile detention, or the mental hospital. It's where kids get sent when they've been labeled as "troubled" or "disadvantaged" -- which is just another way of saying that they'll never amount to anything. They become invisible to society, and grow up to be faceless, alienated adults -- interchangeable, like the blank silhouettes on traffic signs.

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by DSPaul

IMO, The Child broiler represents multiple things.

It's all the same. It all comes down to the fact that society is cruel and children have it tougher than anyone else. But I don't think the Broiler represents those places themselves. Rather I think it represents the children's feelings of loneliness and lack of self-worth that places such as those (and parents and society at large) inflicts on them.

EDIT: I don't know why I didn't think of it before, but the line "I'll never amount to anything"... when a kid ends up feeling that way, well that's the Child Broiler!

[CJ_Walker]

WAITwatiwatiwatiwatiwatiwat....

I just watched the episode, and I really thought that the child broiler was not a metaphor but a real place, (from what the father said about it and the multiple flashbacks of that place). I mean Yuris fathers house was *real* in the universe they were in before Momoka pulled a Hyouin Kyouma.

I figured it would make a lot of sense if it was real after this episode, considering whats been going on, theoretically making the takakura parents the good guys. . .

My head almost exploded when I thoguht about that and I was like whoa wtf is going on now?

I have acutally been getting tired of the whole Ive loved you since I was 8 years old so were destined to be together kinda thing thats been going on throughout the whole series-tabuki and momoka, yuri and momoka, yuri and tabuki, now the traianlge of child love(?) thing going on, to the point where it is just feeling contrived and eye rolling worthy. I pretty much stopped caring about the characters except for sho and ringo (even though I HATED ringo at first)

I have been feeling uneasy becuase everybody in the anime world pretty much is saying this is the perfect anime or whatever but I just couldn't seem to care. . .untill the possibility about the child broiler being real(and not a metaphor) hit me towards the end of this episode. . .THAT is VERY interesting...

I have no idea why I couldn't see how good this anime is supposed to be though other than the child broiler part, maybe I felt like it was trying to hard to be epic, with all the symbolism and over dramaticism that has been there. . .I cant put my finger on why I think the show overall is kinda *meh* (including some eye roll inducing parts) I have been kinda wanting the guy to just get on with the meat/main overarching conflict/whatever of the story.


P.S, Also after thinking about this episode and the child broiler thing, Im getting the feeling that Momoka isnt dead, that she has a big part in this, and that we will be seeing her again soon.

[Hooves]

Now it's definitely a triangle with Sho, Himari, and Ringo. I first thought the one who shared the fruit of fate was Kanba since it gave hints of that, and Himari got the brothers mixed up. But it proved to actually be Sho, now I'm kinda scared for the Sho and Ringo combination since Himari is getting in the game. While Ringo has made absolutely no progress with Sho.. They might brush Ringo aside for Sho and Himari??

[Guardian Enzo]

That was the best ep of the series for me in terms of emotional punch. I think Ikuhara did a brilliant job of making the symbolism of the child broiler come to life as personified by Shouma and Himari. The two characters who always seemed as if they would be at the heart of the conclusion but were mostly observers up to now finally emerged as real actors in the drama. Incredibly beautiful animation and use of BGM.

As for the child broiler, I agree it's representative of many things. It's a Buddhist hell, and it's also symbolic of the way modern society (specifically Japan) wants desperately not to have to look at the undesirables who mar their image of a perfect society that exists for the good of all. And for every Shouma or Momoka or Superfrog who takes action just because they should, there are countless others who either do nothing or - like the Kiga Group - foul their karma and the world's by responding to injustice by lusting for revenge. I think the conclusion will be nothing less than a clash of world views, with Shouma and Kanba at the heart of it.

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by Hooves

Now it's definitely a triangle with Sho, Himari, and Ringo. I first thought the one who shared the fruit of fate was Kanba since it gave hints of that, and Himari got the brothers mixed up. But it proved to actually be Sho, now I'm kinda scared for the Sho and Ringo combination since Himari is getting in the game. While Ringo has made absolutely no progress with Sho.. They might brush Ringo aside for Sho and Himari??

I think you're thinking too much in terms of pairings. Ikuhara couldn't care less about that. The interpersonal relationships in this series are just a tool to bring certain themes to the forefront....

As for Ringo, I believe her character still has a few things to say (again, thematically speaking) so I don't think she's going to be brushed aside, neither individually or from her relationship with Shouma.

In fact I think it's obvious the only character who can inspire Shouma to stop wallowing in self-loathing and grow up is Ringo herself. There's no one else who could do that, I think.

[Sides]

Have to give it a ten, for two reasons: great story this week and antarctica, the other place I want to visit, besides japan.
But it still didn't explained how Shoma managed to bring Himari into the family.

[Hooves]

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

I think you're thinking too much in term of pairings. Ikuhara couldn't care less about that. The interpersonal relationships in this series are just a tool to bring certain themes to the forefront....

As for Ringo, I believe her character still has a few things to say (again, thematically speaking) so I don't think she's going to be brushed aside, neither individually or from her relationship with Shouma.

In fact I think it's obvious the only character who can inspire Shouma to stop wallowing in self-loathing and grow up is Ringo herself. There's no one else who could do that, I think.

Maybe I'm overthinking things, but with only 4 more episodes closing in for Penguin Drum. I'm getting a little worried on how they will end this excellent development on the plot and the characters. Of course this is not feeling rushed at all, everything is running smoothly but things maybe be rushed a little to fit the time. I'll be shocked if this still ends in the smooth pace it has been going with and still make an excellent impact which I'm looking forward to with some things being held back.

You're right that Ringo may be the only one to actually help Shouma out of his hatred for himself for not being able to do anything about what's happening to his family. While at the same time cursing at his parents for inflicting this burden on them in the first place, in order to show just how bad the current world is with children getting broiled into nothingness. Kanba is on the parent's side while Shouma isn't, will certainly be interesting when the possibility of them clashing heads together over this matter occurs. Himari herself did say she would not chase, so Ringo might be the chaser instead. Which will probably help Shouma snap out of it like you said.

[SoFarGone]

well if Kanba is really a Natsume then its kind of weird for him to focus on saving Himari when his real sibling Mario is suffering the same fate.

[lightbringer]

Originally Posted by CJ_Walker

I just watched the episode, and I really thought that the child broiler was not a metaphor but a real place, (from what the father said about it and the multiple flashbacks of that place). I mean Yuris fathers house was *real* in the universe they were in before Momoka pulled a Hyouin Kyouma.

A place where they shovel kids onto conveyor belts and then crush them to pieces? I doubt it. It has "metaphor" written in big red letters all over it. Yuri's story was also laced in metaphor and I'm not sure how much of what she experienced was real. I think we can only safely say that she was physically abused (and potentially sexually assaulted) by her father.

PengDrum has been a rollercoaster so far, but I'd wait until the very end to decide whether it was a product of real genius or just drama for the sake of drama. It depends on the payoff.

[klare]

feel like Himari talked to the wrong person about love...

it was Sho all along, i think he choosed Himari as a family, nothing more

so far i still cant link all these things together, could Kenzan is actually the old Natsume's son? the voice seems different tho

[YayPepsi]

While Ringo has made absolutely no progress with Sho..

Well, look on the bright side - Sho chose to share that story with Ringo. Isn't that a bit of progress on their part? He's opening up to her.

[Kanon]

So the only one of the three siblings who looks nothing like either of his parents turns out to be the only one related to them. They got me good. I'm very curious to find out how Kan became a Takakura and why he rejects his real family. Incidentally, that brings back the incest component which I thought disappeared last week, since Masako has more than sisterly feelings for Kan.

They made Shoma x Himari look way too adorable. It doesn't seem like Shoma holds any romantic feelings for her, however. I think Himari misunderstood his intention when he chose her. He wanted her to join the family as his sister, and never as his lover/wife. Now to explain that to her...

At any rate, I'm still rooting for Shoma and Ringo, the only two sane people of this anime. Yes, Shoma has serious guilt issues but I believe he is relatively sane.

[Toto y Moi]

Originally Posted by lightbringer

A place where they shovel kids onto conveyor belts and then crush them to pieces? I doubt it. It has "metaphor" written in big red letters all over it. Yuri's story was also laced in metaphor and I'm not sure how much of what she experienced was real. I think we can only safely say that she was physically abused (and potentially sexually assaulted) by her father.

PengDrum has been a rollercoaster so far, but I'd wait until the very end to decide whether it was a product of real genius or just drama for the sake of drama. It depends on the payoff.

I don't think either were metaphorical. It's surrealism. Ikuhara is pretty obviously influenced by Murakami, who does the exact same thing in all of his novels. Even the dialogue in this show (the conversation between Himari and Sanetoshi at the beginning especially) is reminiscent of Murakami's style.

Fantastic episode, fantastic series, 10/10, best anime series I've watched in years, etc, etc, etc.

[Kirarakim]

Wonderful episode and I am not really worried about Ringo X Shouma because despite the talk about 1st man and woman what it seemed both Shouma & Himari were looking for was family.

The thing that is still confusing is how Kanba became part of the Takakura family, but I guess that will be cleared up next week. Part of me wonders if he is (and Masako & Mario then by extension) related to Shouma but as a half brother.

Although I guessed the possibility of Kanba & Masako being related since episode 16 (when Masako mentioned 4 of them being a family again) I think this was the biggest misdirection of Ikuhara's. I mean Masako did not act like she was trying to get a brother back in those early parts of the series. I even shipped them a bit but now I am content with them being brother & sister.

And really what is Mario's role in all this going to be?

Even though Shouma had his Emo voice again I loved that he shared everything with Ringo.

But really the flashback with Himari & Shouma was wonderfully done and very heartfelt but I wish they didn't have to do that to the cat.


edit: Yep I also definitely see the connection to Murakami's style.

[Utsuro no Hako]

Originally Posted by Toto y Moi

I don't think either were metaphorical. It's surrealism. Ikuhara is pretty obviously influenced by Murakami, who does the exact same thing in all of his novels. Even the dialogue in this show (the conversation between Himari and Sanetoshi at the beginning especially) is reminiscent of Murakami's style.

Have you read 1Q84 yet? Because I'm about halfway through and I can't help but feel that Ikuhara must've been reading it when he came up with the idea for Penguindrum.