2009-07-15, 04:35 | Link #181 | |
Logician and Romantic
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Within my mind
Age: 43
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Because if there was a "time" when they could travel further into the past, then they just have to travel to that time as a pit-stop to go further back. What you are looking for, isn't "time", but "world". There might well have once been a future world/universe where they could go further back in time, but that future universe no longer exists.
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2009-07-15, 04:42 | Link #182 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2007
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^a future universe that no longer exist?
Are we assuming that the future is linear and multiple futures don't exist? Or should we assume that the future universe that no longer exist was changed similar to how Yuki changed the world in volume 4. |
2009-07-15, 04:42 | Link #183 | |
Senior Member
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It is hard to say for sure (however, I would not be too quick to believe Koizumi). Oh, yeah, having a "time" when the time-travelers could bo back prior 4 years ago do not make sense. Unless it is a problem on the future, not in the past (like some bug on the time machine) |
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2009-07-15, 04:48 | Link #185 | ||
Logician and Romantic
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Within my mind
Age: 43
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You see, I believe Haruhi's capacity to alter things outside Space Time, including committing Genocide on the Data Overmind if she so wish, means the "Data Explosion" didn't HAPPEN 3 years ago. It's just that 3 years ago is as far as anyone is capable to observing, because Haruhi has permanently blocked off access. Haruhi could have been using her god-like powers before 3 years ago... But no one would know because no one could check. Quote:
In a way, it doesn't matter if there was a universe before three years ago. I mean, for the duration of Endless Eight there was no universe after the 1st day of August. Yet no one cared to ask if the older Future Mikuru who got recreated is "real" or not. The future was gone, then it came back. But it made no real difference. Yuki's attitude to all this is what I follow: As long as the data is transmitted perfectly, it doesn't matter what technically happened, what matters is what you get in the end.
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2009-07-15, 04:55 | Link #186 |
Homo Ludens
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Canada
Age: 34
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Holy...
How's this for an idea? Before 3YA, Haruhi was perfectly aware that she was God. The 3YA event was a side effect of her sealing away her own memory of them, in order to stop being God. (It didn't work.) CRACK as all hell, but I think it's an interesting idea. (At that point, she also separated herself into two distinct individuals... nah, that's too CRACK.) |
2009-07-15, 05:26 | Link #187 | |
Senior Member
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Well, a have tought something like that some time ago. As a sollution to "how the Cretator could not remember creating am being part of it creation?" But where is goes the baseball event? The one when she start to feel melancholic? |
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2009-07-15, 05:42 | Link #189 | |
Kneel Before Your King!
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To put it a different way, I am currently 24. Should I be considered a reliable source of information about events that occured centuries or even one year before I was born? I have no way of knowing this information beyond what I am told by others, who may not know themselves.
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2009-07-15, 05:51 | Link #190 |
Name means little...
Graphic Designer
Join Date: Dec 2004
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Unfortunately, how much trust would we put in Koizumi... in some sense, when we doubt the intrinsic value of all the information presented, it would then becomes incredibly difficult to decide what is true, given that Kyon himself is questionable as he has his own bias. Nagato does convey more weight to Kyon given her track records, so we have no choice but to conclude that Nagato's accounts hold more weight to Kyon, our source of information.
Kogetsu Shirogane's argument would make how that everyone "stand on the shoulder of giants" regarding human knowledge to be quite problematic given that most of us have no way of knowing much of historical information beyond what we were told, who may not know themselves... such as how we call out on the site of cremotoriums, let along how we go about to figure out sites of the fabled X'ia dynasty of China.
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2009-07-15, 05:57 | Link #191 | |
Logician and Romantic
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Within my mind
Age: 43
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Did it matter that the future was briefly annihilated during Endless Eight? No, because the future was restored, so there was no effect in the end. So why would the existence of the past matter, as long as the effect is the same? That's what Yuki meant, when she claimed as long as data is transmitted accurately, actual time travel was irrelevant. Kyon wasn't sent back to the future by Yuki; he was frozen in time and unfrozen later. But since the effect is the same, then for all intent and purposes he did time travel. Whether a past actually existed or not... does it really matter? For Yuki, it wouldn't. The data that suggested a past existed is there, thus it exists.
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2009-07-15, 07:11 | Link #192 | |
Explodes when thrown
IT Support
Join Date: Jan 2009
Age: 37
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2009-07-15, 07:24 | Link #193 |
The Hawk
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Berlin, Fatherland
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Or, in Koizumi's words:
"We cannot erase the possibility that the world was created 5 minutes ago." Well, nobody know what happened 3 years ago. Maybe the world was created then. However, Mikuru does not believe that, according to Yuki. I cannot imagine the Data Entity being 3 years old either, which would fit with Mikurus theory that Haruhi did not create this world and that it existed in this state long before her. Maybe Haruhi just cut off the past, in a way like she cut off the future in Endless Eight. That's why nobody can travel past that point. Maybe it's a defense mechanism so someone cannot do something to her before she started using her powers. |
2009-07-15, 08:19 | Link #194 |
Name means little...
Graphic Designer
Join Date: Dec 2004
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I guess we are falling into a dangerous fallacy of continuous chain of speculation. It becomes to tempting to look into the validity and worth of everything starting from page 1 of Melancholy, but if we do that, then we'd be going in circles just on the nuances of whether or not if the actual age of the universe holds any meaning to the crew whatsoever.
About information, matter and energy... information itself may just "disappear" if the medium goes into a black hole and then gets "converted" and spews out, when that's not supposed to have happened given that you supposedly should, in theory, have the ability to reassemble the information from whatever form the medium becomes... well, that might be scary. Lost information in this universe, in Hawking's mind goes into some baby or alternate universe (no relation), or that it's tied up in the cause and effect of things, which becomes a real issue since it would mean that nature doesn't really 'evolve' with time...
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2009-07-15, 08:20 | Link #195 | |
Logician and Romantic
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Within my mind
Age: 43
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Because, let's face it, if you ask "when" in time was the Past cut off, it made no sense. If Haruhi has annihilated the past the same way she annihilated the future in Endless Eight, then the fact that there was once a past before 3 years ago then no longer matters. It doesn't exist now, so it never existed, unless Haruhi puts it back.
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2009-07-15, 10:37 | Link #197 | |
Logician and Romantic
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Within my mind
Age: 43
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But the past can't exist somewhere in time, it IS time. By Haruhi cutting out the Past, it would never have existed at all. The past either exists or doesn't; once the past vanished, by definition it has never been. Once again, I bring up Endless Eight: Obviously for the majority of the show, Adult Mikuru's time in the future exists. But for a short while, it doesn't exist. It wasn't erased; it just doesn't exist at all. But then, it exists again. For when it exists, it has always existed. For when it was gone, it was never there. "When" something happens, is meaningless when we are talking about altering time itself. This reminds me of a Discworld Novel, whereby mystical monks had to spend a long... "something", to repair a time-crash, in order to sew a damaged timeline back together. How much "time" it took for them to fix it, didn't make much sense as a question...
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2009-07-15, 11:24 | Link #198 |
The Hawk
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Berlin, Fatherland
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It's all speculation now, I just thought that maybe the past continues to go on, only seperate from Haruhi's world.
It basically split in two lines, only one line (the world now) starts at that point. Also, I think it's a difference if Haruhi cut off the past or created a new universe. Because cutting off the past means that she did not create aliens, time travelers and such and they existed before her. If she did create the world, they're all 3 years old and their memories should be considered artificial. At least the Entity should be able to find out wether it's 3 years old or billions of years old... From the Entities point of view, it's been observing the Universe since.. Ever. Then, Haruhi happened. Good lord, this is confusing. |
2009-07-15, 11:37 | Link #199 |
Bittersweet Distractor
Join Date: Nov 2007
Age: 32
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Well of course the biggest issue is that Mikuru once stated that they were not able to time travel past 3 years ago.
The thing that I find funny is that Kyon rarely has talked (If at all) about memories that existed before 3 years ago. We learned about him and Sasaki, but that was within the 3 year gap between the explosion of information and his meeting of Haruhi. It just leads me to believe that everyone's memories before the 3 year gap are perhaps fabricated by Haruhi and that the world truly began at that point. There is no proof to this, but it makes sense considering that they cannot time travel behind this date. The thing about Endless Night is that it was a time recursion, you cannot travel foward in something that is just a loop. The bridge between the present and future was burned, but it is not like there is no future as a paradox would form with Mikuru's existence since she is from the future. Bah, I hate time travel. Never makes sense.
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2009-07-15, 13:32 | Link #200 | |
Sasaki-ist
Join Date: Mar 2008
Age: 36
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So what if Mikuru didn't have a past for those two weeks? None of the other characters did either. Just like you can't go forward in a loop, you can't go backwards in a loop. Take a length of string. Cut a smaller length from the middle of it and connect the two ends of that piece together. The segments you cut off from the inner segment represent the past and future, with the middle segment of course being the loop. The fact that the pieces are no longer connected does not stop them from existing. It makes perfect sense if you are willing to stop clinging to that pesky "causality" thing. |
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