2010-11-09, 17:52 | Link #18701 | |
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2010-11-09, 19:11 | Link #18702 | |
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2010-11-09, 19:17 | Link #18703 |
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Im well aware of this, but in those two particular cases there was no red to restrict that possibility. Then again the red doesn't look like it matters if you can skirt around it the way they are using it now. Im still holding out for EP8, I want a sort of master stroke to make it all come together.
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2010-11-09, 19:59 | Link #18704 |
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Join Date: Jul 2009
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Don't think the arc 7 tea party is that relevant.
Too much doesn't match up about it. It's too close to a repeat of arc 5's Natsuhi is the culprit theory to be the truth. Beside, for instance in arc 4 Ange says that the gifts bought to her by her mother were always really thoughtful and chosen carefully and long in advance, which seems to outright contradict what's claimed of her in arc 7. Generally speaking they act so much out of character it feels like connecting the Kyrie of arc 7's tea party to the Kyrie we generally know is like trying to match Rika from Higurashi to Bernkastel from Umineko. Same for Rudolph if not even more. Finally there's nothing that begins to make sense with the epitaph murder pattern with what's presented to us in arc 7's tea party. Generally speaking I'm willing to believe that a different gamemaster can result in a different culprit. However... the idea that each arc has a different culprit, tho somewhat appealing in a way, makes arc 1 a bit too convenient to just happens to have randomly picked up "Beatrice" as the culprit for her having no relation to most of the other arcs' murders. There's also however the context of the bomber. I'm eager to believe the bomber is not the epitaph murderer. I even tend to believe that on Rokkenjima Prime no murder outside of the explosion occurred, and that the explosion might not have been caused by Beatrice, but I think by this point the idea that Beatrice is not the epitaph murderer in at least most arcs is trying to dodge some small problematic questions by creating much bigger ones and generally overcomplicating the answer. Last edited by UsagiTenpura; 2010-11-09 at 20:09. |
2010-11-09, 20:41 | Link #18708 |
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Join Date: Oct 2010
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They are apparently disconnected, they all have different possible solutions using different characters. While we want a single unified solution that covers all of the games or at least the first 4 ones, there really is no guarantee that would happen until EP8 is released.
Last edited by Cao Ni Ma; 2010-11-09 at 21:04. |
2010-11-09, 21:19 | Link #18710 | |
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Basically if this is true then we've discovered the metaphor for Bernkastel. She's Studio DEEN! |
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2010-11-09, 21:54 | Link #18711 |
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Well, DEEN is pretty loveless, but in all seriousness, I found her much more to be a personification of people who are ripping apart the mystery to get to the truth as a game, with no regard for love or sympathy for the tragic figures involved. She doesn't care about reaching the truth so much as throwing out the most entertaining and satisfying answer to her; in other words, anything which she thinks sufficiently disproves the existence of Beatrice. Anything beyond that is unimportant.
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2010-11-10, 00:37 | Link #18712 | |
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- Hiding Kinzo group : Krauss(leader), Natsuhi, Nanjo, all servants except Gohda - Extorting Krauss group: Eva (leader), Hideyoshi, Rosa, Rudolf and Kyrie - Beatrice's team: Shannon(leader),, Nanjo, all servants (again except Gohda), George, and Maria - Hideous motive group: Kyrie (leader), and Rudolf - Innocene: The children, and Gohda Eva always have plan B that if they failed to force Krauss to sign up the terms to give them cash (which failed in EP1, EP4, EP5) in half a year's time. They would setup fake deaths in order to break into Kinzo's study (implemented in EP5). But her fake death plan did not involve magic theme. In EP1, Eva and Hideyoshi left early (before midnight), so as to make them to discoverer of the "corpse" (should be posed by Rosa, Kyrie and Rudolf). Shannon came after midnight to announce her fake death play. Kyrie and Rudolf flipped but failed. So in the next morning we observe their odd behaviour as if they know someone is going to disappear. EP2, Rosa did not have any alibi. If we buy Shkanon, then when Rosa went to study to find Kinzo, she would not find Shannon. Then Genji had to reveal Kanon = Shannon. They went to Jessica's room then. Rosa killed Jessica because when Kanon's identity was revealed in front of Jessica. Jessica thought she was cheated and accused the servants as deceivers and murderers. Rosa feared that Shannon would expose her as the real murderer so she killed Jessica. Rosa agreed to cover up for the servants about Kinzo's death and Kanon's identity in exchange for them to cover up the death of Jessica. This explained the 180 change of attitude of Rosa and her lies after she came back to the parlor. George only perceived it as an act to make Maria happy. Only Shannon knows it was also to pose a challenge to Battler. Well, Eva surely have flipped in EP3. Almost certainly it was Rosa who placed the letter in the parlor after they went to check Natsuhi's room in EP2. Erika's flip was admitted in EP6. In other episodes, it was Kyrie and Rudolf who started all real murders, and that was not a sudden flip. I believe EP8 will be used to redeem Kyrie and Rudolf. Cue Battler's comment that no one are really bad guys and Battler's mother is still kept as secret. (Really, to say the whole incident was caused by a hyperimaginative girl driven to become homicidal because some punk promised something stupid 6 years ago is so underwhelming. I want to add more ideas and twists to make the answer more appealing even though it seemed to complicate a lot.)
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Last edited by ijriims; 2010-11-10 at 01:05. |
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2010-11-10, 06:31 | Link #18713 |
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The problem is if we have so many people flipping out, we do not really have a mastermind. Sure, we could say Yasu planned something, but not the murders, as they would have been caused by different parties, who exploited the situation created by Yasu to kill the rest. I wouldn't know if something like this could be an answer for a mystery novel, and it would violate Van Dine's 12th rule - but, either way, we do not know if all the rules are valid in Umineko any way. I think it'd be of poor taste, though.
Anyway, in EP5, it seems someone knew about Yasu being the kid from 19 yeas ago. I doubt Yasu herself did those phone calls, and I doubt the one(s) who called Natsuhi just came up with some random story and by coincidence hit the nail. And this, ladies and gentlemen, is the answer to all questions in life. Thank you very much.
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2010-11-10, 06:45 | Link #18714 |
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Yeah, the person knew about the baby and must have had access into the Nats room to lay the cards down. They make Shanon too much of a likely suspect in that scene so I doubt it was her. The knowledge of Nats favorite season doesn't matter anyways since you can bypass that with multiple cards.
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2010-11-10, 18:31 | Link #18716 |
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It's a bit of a stretch, but I've been thinking what if the phone calls in EP5 didn't even happen? What if Natsuhi took up all of those strange actions(like hiding in the closet) by her own will, and she is the culprit in EP5? The scenes of her being threatened on the phone are merely ornamented falsehoods that we see because the interpretation "has love". Because of this, she is deliberately portrayed as a tragic figure.
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2010-11-10, 18:52 | Link #18718 |
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I'd call it unlikely not just because of the red, but because pretty much the first thing Bern says when Lambda pulls the phone call on her is "come on, did that really happen?"
While it's certainly always fun when the first thing offhandedly suggested turns out to be true, I'd argue we are also supposed to have the same reaction as Bern at that point, as the entire plot thread just seems to come out of nowhere. So if the immediate reaction is to dismiss it as having not actually happened or the caller not actually existing, it seems like Ryukishi wants us to wonder how it could be true even if it's not exactly as portrayed. Or maybe it's a fake-out.
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2010-11-10, 19:33 | Link #18719 |
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It also makes arc 5 into ... something even weirder.
If we go by Battler's red then Natsuhi is innocent in arc 5, so without the phone calls threatening her and controlling her actions you have to find out a new explanation for all her off behavior, especially hiding in the same room as Hideyoshi when he was ... uh... "second twilight-ed" (I'm not going to say murder). Also, this isn't really objective, but I always saw arc 5's phone calls as a confirmation that someone could fake voice (and thus that all the phone calls of arc 4 could've been done by a single caller). Entirely different topic but I'm digging in the question arcs in order to make a more complete version of my Battler is only a furniture theory and I can't help but notice that Ange's memories of Battler never mentions him coming back to live with Kyrie/Rudolph. |
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