To Aru Kagaku no Railgun - Episode 10 Discussion / Poll

[DJ Trouble]

Originally Posted by Forbin

But it's ok for people to fall into a coma from watching a TV Episode of Pokemon? (Yes it happened thought it was more of an epiletic fit)

Come on DJ, if a visual can do it, why not an audio?

Wasn't that just the Japanese, though? If so, then it doesn't matter, because we all know the Japs are inherently fucked up. I mean honestly, diaper fetishes? <________________________________< Yea . . .

But seriously, I don't think anyone expected to fall into a coma from watching a few flashing lights . . . sure, we might be wary of it now, but it wasn't expected. Same with the LU. I wasn't saying it's impossible or couldn't possibly happen. My point was that there's no reason that the average person would have any reason at all to suspect they'd fall into a coma from it. Even now, do you shy away from brightly flashing red and blue lights for fear of experiencing an epileptic episode? I would hope not . . . because
>That's really stupid.

[Shinji103]

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

If Saten's friends' parents actually did charge her with endangering their lives, what would the verdict be? What would the punishment be? How much 'responsibility' do you think Saten would reasonably have to bear? While you might have sympathy for the hysterics of parents acting in this manner, such exaggerated and blame-seeking thinking would be nowhere close to reality.

Wow, you really don't understand the average person, do you? People call for blood over much less than this, I'm afraid. It's a sad world, sure, but it's the only one we have.

Your 'terrifying absence of wariness and common sense' is ridiculously exaggerated too. Again, it's just a freakin' .mp3 file. See below.

Yeah, some .mp3 file. Again, anything that gives any normal person superpowers or upgrades an Esper's existant powers has to be something that alters your mind/body in some way, and that's obviously nothing simple. That fact is BEYOND debate. Your efforts to try and make it sound simple are more terrifying, actually.

Why, in a world of scientifically based extra-sensory-powers, do we have to stretch our suspension of disbelief and the bounds of science to demonify a measly sound file? I made this point before, but the falling into a coma isn't even a 'side effect'. Level Upper itself doesn't have any side effects. The coma is a result of something else, in no way related to the normal functioning of the level upper.

Why are you saying it's a measly sound file? How is this a measly sound file? It gives a person superpowers. What's so measly about that? Something like that is nowhere near measly. Not only are you totally understating the whole thing, you don't seem to be getting the point either; whether or not it's the Level Upper itself, Kiyama is using LU to take advantage of people. She's tricking them into taking something that she knows they normally wouldn't take by hiding it in something that people would take. If it was all fine and good, then why is she tricking people into it?

So your 'obviously Level Upper has some nasty side effects' falls flat. List even one? As I mentioned in my last post, the only concievable (on the basis of science, on the basis of commons sense) side effects of something like Level Upper would have been stuff like headaches or insomnia, at worst temporary fainting spells, and Level Upper doesn't even have those. The 'terrifying bodily consequences' that some of you are imagining are nothing more than wild and illusionary fantasies.

Right, so these kids falling comatose are wildly illusionary fantasies. I could have sworn they were real.
The mere fact that you're not willing to even accept the fact that Kiyama is using people against their will by tricking people with LU really makes me want to give up on this. I fear for people that are as easily fooled.......

Anonymous altruism isn't all that unbelievable. I'd find it perfectly reasonable if someone did develop something like the Level Upper out of (maybe sympathy for) the same kind of suffering Saten has gone through, and distributed it out of the good of his heart. That is certainly more within the realm of 'common sense' than the assumption of a psychotic out to create anarchy.

Spoiler:

People who would condemn Kiyama for how she treats Level Upper users are of a 'treat people better than they deserve' moralistic tendency. That the power hungry fall into a coma is just deserts, while the naive ultimately come to no harm, justifying in part their assumption of good will, though they are also forced to realize that it was too good to be true after all.

So you'd be willing to take such a leap of faith and use something you know nothing about? As a certain background story in the manga of this arc shows, and if you've read the manga you know what I mean, even this anime world is

Spoiler:

a really sick place.

Heck, we don't even need that backstory to point it out; the SISTERs arc of Index made it clear enough. If Level Upper had been something so good, why isn't your hypothetical sympathetic person suggesting Level Upper to the government? If it had no side-effects, then why not? Answer: Because Kiyama is using it for her own purposes, without the best interests of the users in mind. if she gave it to the government to let them test it and distribute it, they'd find out about what she's trying to do. I.e., not a legitimate "drug," for lack of a better term. So obviously it's not quite so outside the realm of common sense.

Spoiler for Reply to Sol's spoiler:

So why don't we just lock up or kill all the criminals ourselves then? If we're just going to let people like Kiyama do whatever she wants with peoples' brains for the purpose of thining the herd of the unworthy, why not just do it for her then?

I don't have kids (...why are you framing the situation this way?), and I don't really want to speak hypothetically, but even in the situation you have set up, I wouldn't cross out the option entirely, especially if the kid wanted it. The only stumbling point is the 'freakout stranger doctor' part, which could quite potentially be alleviated by a little conversation.

Obviously you don't have kids. Your standpoint is making it quite clear. As for why I'm framing the situation this way, well, it should be quite obvious. But thank you for pointing out part of my point; you'd let your kid use LU if you could speak to the doctor who made it, right? But where in this situation are people able to ask the creator of LU about it? Saten got it off a website. With no contact or origin information.

To say that any sane person would want Kiyama executed is a truly boxed and closed definition of 'sane'.

Now you're cearly exaggerating my points. Who said "execute?" I said "head on a silver platter," which by no means equals killing anybody. It's a figure of speech. But they'd sure as heck want her brought in to answer for her doings.

I'd say Saten's 'fear' might have been more parts 'I'm breaking the implicit rules set by Judgement, AC's enforcers of public order, as represented by my friend' than 'this might be seriously bad for my health'. On that level, the friends' (or just about everybody's) willingness to 'break the rules' has very little negative reflection on Saten. The worst you could say about her being an 'enabler' might be that she's a 'bad influence', but that would be make some rather dubious assumptions on the personalities of both Saten and her friends.

And where is this pointed out? Not only are you trying to reshape the obvious, stated truth to fit your point, it still means she intentionally involved her friends in "breaking the implicit rules" that were set forth by the city's law-enforcing powers.
Like I said, what her friends wanted is irrelevant, and it doesn't mean it's okay to help them. Giving them the means makes her responsible for the consequences.

Requiring that Saten should have taken the Level Upper on her own and tested it before sharing it with friends is ridiculous in any case. You couldn't ask or expect that of any kid.

Lol, oh really? So it's okay to just throw the thing around to everybody when your own instincts are clearly telling you not to use the thing? And I certainly wouldn't ask her to take it alone; I'd ask her to not take the dang thing at all. But if she's going to take the thing no matter what I or her friends say anyway, then why not take it alone before putting others at risk as well? She says she cares about other people and has acted on that before, but apparently that was selective because she didn't act on it this time. This is definitely a big reason for why I criticize her.

Originally Posted by DJ Trouble

I don't think anyone would expect to fall into a coma from listening to music though. That's really stupid.

Except they should know perfectly well it's not just music. Even if they don't know the exact science behind it, it's pretty obvious. It gives you superpowers. How could that possibly be ordinary music?

Spoiler:

Kiyama is using the processing power of the created brain network to make a prediction that will expose the unethical practices of the bigwigs of Academy City, or something like that. So, she's a rebel and she can't really be out in the open. I'm not saying that justifies her actions, but there's a reason why she's not open about it.

Also, in the manga at least, when Uihara points out the negative consequences of people randomly falling into comas, Kiyama shows concern and worry about their well-being, and that she hadn't considered that possibility. Again, I'm not saying she's justified, but she's not a super calculating evil villain looking to get her way by any means possible.

Spoiler:

She's also obviously not open about it because she knows it isn't healthy for people, otherwise she could just start an underground movement and get help from people who agree with her. But she knows that people aren't just going to "chug" something that can/will send them into a coma, so she tricks people into using it.

Showing concern for it obviously isn't stopping her from doing it. I never said she's super evil, that was an example to show the people taking Level Upper have no idea what the maker's intentions are and are just being stupid. Kiyama is still an example of someone taking advantage of the naivety and desires of others for their own purposes, which is in no way unrealistic. That's why we have terms such as "ripped off" and "fraud."

However, Kiyama's exact reasons and justifications aren't really my point; my point is that LU turned out to be another "drug" that someone used to take advantage of others for their own purposes. There are people like this all over the world, and that's why people need to use common sense to avoid being tricked by these people.

[DJ Trouble]

Originally Posted by Shinji103

Except they should know perfectly well it's not just music. Even if they don't know the exact science behind it, it's pretty obvious. It gives you superpowers. How could that possibly be ordinary music?

I didn't say anything about it being "just" or "ordinary" music. It's the Level Upper. If they thought it was just regular music, they probably wouldn't bother to listen to it because they wouldn't think it'd do anything.

I already answered this in response to Forbin's post, but I'll add to it. No matter how unusual, extraordinary, or experimental music is, there's no reason at all for anyone to think you'd fall into a coma from listening to it. I can't think of any diseases that include the patients hearing music and falling into a coma. The kids using LU probably all reasonably healthy. So, music = coma is still really stupid.

Spoiler:

She's also obviously not open about it because she knows it isn't healthy for people, otherwise she could just start an underground movement and get help from people who agree with her. But she knows that people aren't just going to "chug" something that can/will send them into a coma, so she tricks people into using it.

Showing concern for it obviously isn't stopping her from doing it. I never said she's super evil, that was an example to show the people taking Level Upper have no idea what the maker's intentions are and are just being stupid. Kiyama is still an example of someone taking advantage of the naivety and desires of others for their own purposes, which is in no way unrealistic. That's why we have terms such as "ripped off" and "fraud."

Originally Posted by Shinji103

The fact is, Kiyama is using peoples' naivety and desire for superpowers to use their brains for her own purposes. If she actually cared about the people she was giving it to, why is she tricking them into it?

The bolded part was actually the only thing I was responding to the first time.

Originally Posted by Shinji103

However, Kiyama's exact reasons and justifications aren't really my point; my point is that LU turned out to be another "drug" that someone used to take advantage of others for their own purposes. There are people like this all over the world, and that's why people need to use common sense to avoid being tricked by these people.

If you're not talking about her reasons, then why bother quoting that part of my post? Her reasons were the only thing I was talking about . . .

[Shinji103]

Originally Posted by DJ Trouble

I already answered this in response to Forbin's post, but I'll add to it. No matter how unusual, extraordinary, or experimental music is, there's no reason at all for anyone to think you'd fall into a coma from listening to it. I can't think of any diseases that include the patients hearing music and falling into a coma. The kids using LU probably all reasonably healthy. So, music = coma is still really stupid.

It seems you're mincing words and/or not completely following my point. I'm not talking about comatizing specifically, I'm talking about side-effects in general. Indeed, nobody could know the exact side efffects of something new and untested (at least by the government) like Level Upper. Which is exactly why people should be at least wary of something like this. Where's the study saying LU doesn't cause people to fall into a coma, or to develop mental or bodily disorders of any kind? If it was fine and there were no problems with it, then it wouldn't need to be distributed so suspicuiously. Kiyama obviously couldn't fully hide the part of LU that she didn't want known, so she bypassed the risk of being found out by government testing by distributing it like this. And she knew there would be people naive enough to use it without regard for their own safety.

If you're not talking about her reasons, then why bother quoting that part of my post? Her reasons were the only thing I was talking about . . .

Because I was using that her and her "selfish" intentions to show that she is in fact another person "ripping off" the users of Level Upper by tricking them into taking something they normally wouldn't take.
The LU users were just lucky it was Kiyama and not someone worse; both the Railgun manga and the Index anime/manga/novels show that their are many people in high positions of power in the Index/Railgun world who would literally kill their test subjects for the purpose of completing their experiments. For all the LU users knew, these people, or people like them, could have been the ones behind LU.

[DJ Trouble]

Originally Posted by Shinji103

It seems you're mincing words and/or not completely following my point. I'm not talking about comatizing specifically, I'm talking about side-effects in general. Indeed, nobody could know the exact side efffects of something new and untested (at least by the government) like Level Upper. Which is exactly why people should be at least wary of something like this

If you're speaking in general, then yes, I can somewhat agree with this. People should think about potential consequences when trying something new. Should. There's a fact that's being overlooked that I'll address later.

Originally Posted by Shinji103

If it was fine and there were no problems with it, then it wouldn't need to be distributed so suspicuiously. Kiyama obviously couldn't fully hide the part of LU that she didn't want known, so she bypassed the risk of being found out by government testing by distributing it like this. And she knew there would be people naive enough to use it without regard for their own safety.

Spoiler:

This is wrong. Why are you trying to connect the way LU was handled and the effects of LU. Those two things are unrelated. Kiyama wasn't hiding away because of the effects of LU. She wasn't hiding because LU is dangerous. She was hiding because of her ultimate purpose. There's also no need for testing LU out. Kiyama knew exactly what effects LU would have. The effects, good and bad, of LU aren't even permanent. And, that brings us back to that earlier fact.

Level Upper has been around the city for a few weeks from what I can tell. It's been in use by hundreds and thousands of espers for weeks. It was in use well before episode one. Now, in all that time, in all those weeks, there have been no mention of strange side effects from LU users. For weeks people have been using LU and only seeing an increase in their powers. In that kind of situation it's only natural that people aren't thinking about side effects from using LU. Others have been doing it with no mention of side effects for weeks.

If you want to argue that a few weeks isn't enough time for side effects to fully show themselves or something, that's fine. But, in real life, most people aren't gonna think like that when a seemingly good opportunity is in front of them. They're thinking "Hey, I want this. Oh, others have been using it with no problems. I'll use it, too."

And before anyone mentions the cafe scene, Saten heard a vague explanation about side effects that may or may not have had anything to do with LU. Hardly persuading enough to make her not do it, and she's the only LU user that had that information, so it doesn't really matter when looking at everyone else.

Originally Posted by Shinji103

Because I was using that her and her "selfish" intentions to show that she is in fact another person "ripping off" the users of Level Upper by tricking them into taking something they normally wouldn't take.
The LU users were just lucky it was Kiyama and not someone worse; both the Railgun manga and the Index anime/manga/novels show that their are many people in high positions of power in the Index/Railgun world who would literally kill their test subjects for the purpose of completing their experiments. For all the LU users knew, these people, or people like them, could have been the ones behind LU.

Haha, such an ironic statement to make.
Also, there's no way to know that people wouldn't have still used the Level Upper under different circumstances. Even though the effects aren't lasting, there's still experiencing what it's like to have stronger powers. I imagine a lot of the espers would have still used it.

[Shinji103]

Originally Posted by DJ Trouble

Spoiler:

This is wrong. Why are you trying to connect the way LU was handled and the effects of LU. Those two things are unrelated. Kiyama wasn't hiding away because of the effects of LU. She wasn't hiding because LU is dangerous. She was hiding because of her ultimate purpose. There's also no need for testing LU out. Kiyama knew exactly what effects LU would have. The effects, good and bad, of LU aren't even permanent. And, that brings us back to that earlier fact.

Spoiler:

How are they unrelated??? They're directly connected; because LU has side effects that Kiyama doesn't want people to know about, she's distributing it like this so that she doesn't the government doesn't stop her before she can get enough people to take it. If she gave it to the government, they'd analyze it and quite possibly find out what she hid in it. Just like drug dealers don't sell heroine or crack as store items in a grocery store. So the fact that it's being distributed like contriband, making it look shady and suspicious, is a big indicator. And you're also going on the horribly immoral idea thast just because it isn't permanent, it's okay. I cannot put into words how terrifying that idea is. If it's okay to put someone in a coma as long as they recover from it, why isn't it okay to beat somebody half to death as long as they recovered from that as well? Or cut off a person's arm as long as it can be surgically reattached, good as new?

Level Upper has been around the city for a few weeks from what I can tell. It's been in use by hundreds and thousands of espers for weeks. It was in use well before episode one. Now, in all that time, in all those weeks, there have been no mention of strange side effects from LU users. For weeks people have been using LU and only seeing an increase in their powers. In that kind of situation it's only natural that people aren't thinking about side effects from using LU. Others have been doing it with no mention of side effects for weeks.

Well there are reports now, aren't there? So obviously there are side effects. What law says that side effects have to happen in a few weeks? If LU caused cancer, it might not show up for months. Heavy smokers don't get cancer quickly.

If you want to argue that a few weeks isn't enough time for side effects to fully show themselves or something, that's fine.

Lol, and I just got finished typing it up, so I'll just leave it there.

But, in real life, most people aren't gonna think like that when a seemingly good opportunity is in front of them. They're thinking "Hey, I want this. Oh, others have been using it with no problems. I'll use it, too."

Hence, naive people fall prey to being "ripped off" like this. Fraud sometimes isn't exposed for years after people have fallen for it.

And before anyone mentions the cafe scene, Saten heard a vague explanation about side effects that may or may not have had anything to do with LU. Hardly persuading enough to make her not do it, and she's the only LU user that had that information, so it doesn't really matter when looking at everyone else.

Actually I wasn't going to mention it, but now that you have, it's far from irrelevant; it may have caused her fear of taking LU alone, and if it didn't, then she took it despite hearing that it may be dangerous and despite her own instincts. There's nothing proving the rumor was wrong, and just because everyone else isn't keeling over yet doesn't prove anything. Sometimes side effects don't even affect everybody. But Saten had her doubts, she used it anyway, and look what happened.

Haha, such an ironic statement to make.
Also, there's no way to know that people wouldn't have still used the Level Upper under different circumstances. Even though the effects aren't lasting, there's still experiencing what it's like to have stronger powers. I imagine a lot of the espers would have still used it.

Ironic but true.
And similarly, drug users abuse drugs even knowing they could easily kill themselves doing it. As I said to another person some time before, we call these people "idiots." There are lots of people like these in the world; I wouldn't be surprised at all if there were idiots who still took Level Upper knowing it could comatize them. But it doesn't make abusers right, and that's the important part.

[Sol Falling]

Originally Posted by Shinji103

Wow, you really don't understand the average person, do you? People call for blood over much less than this, I'm afraid. It's a sad world, sure, but it's the only one we have.

Missing my point, and making baseless insults while your at it too. People can call for blood, sure, but that doesn't mean any blood should or would be spilled. The 'parent's' perspective isn't helpful in this instance because it would likely be dubious and hysterical.

Yeah, some .mp3 file. Again, anything that gives any normal person superpowers or upgrades an Esper's existant powers has to be something that alters your mind/body in some way, and that's obviously nothing simple. That fact is BEYOND debate. Your efforts to try and make it sound simple are more terrifying, actually.

Ooh, anything that alters one's body in any manner must be shady and dangerous, right? Your fragile conception and compulsive fear of the human body and what a sound file can do to it has no basis in reality. Given the setting, how would something that grants a person superpowers presumably work? In a similar way as the officially sanctioned process, right? And you don't see normal users falling into comas left and right. The presumption that level upper is inherently dangerous is equivalent to saying that powers are inherently dangerous. That is antithetical to the very existance of academy city.

Why are you saying it's a measly sound file? How is this a measly sound file? It gives a person superpowers. What's so measly about that? Something like that is nowhere near measly. Not only are you totally understating the whole thing, you don't seem to be getting the point either; whether or not it's the Level Upper itself, Kiyama is using LU to take advantage of people. She's tricking them into taking something that she knows they normally wouldn't take by hiding it in something that people would take. If it was all fine and good, then why is she tricking people into it?

So the basis of your argument has nothing whatsoever to do with the level upper itself, but rather with the fact that Kiyama is a 'villain', and Saten is terrible for letting her have her way? lol.

Right, so these kids falling comatose are wildly illusionary fantasies. I could have sworn they were real.
The mere fact that you're not willing to even accept the fact that Kiyama is using people against their will by tricking people with LU really makes me want to give up on this. I fear for people that are as easily fooled.......

I thought I'd stated pretty clearly that the comas aren't an effect of the level upper. At the very least, they aren't an effect of the level upping part of the leverl upper, which doesn't even function as it might be presumed to anyway. The argument that 'level upper must have dangerous side effects!' (lol at your random subject change) is completely dismantled.

So you'd be willing to take such a leap of faith and use something you know nothing about? As a certain background story in the manga of this arc shows, and if you've read the manga you know what I mean, even this anime world is

Spoiler:

a really sick place.

Heck, we don't even need that backstory to point it out; the SISTERs arc of Index made it clear enough. If Level Upper had been something so good, why isn't your hypothetical sympathetic person suggesting Level Upper to the government? If it had no side-effects, then why not? Answer: Because Kiyama is using it for her own purposes, without the best interests of the users in mind. if she gave it to the government to let them test it and distribute it, they'd find out about what she's trying to do. I.e., not a legitimate "drug," for lack of a better term. So obviously it's not quite so outside the realm of common sense.

Spoiler for Reply to Sol's spoiler:

So why don't we just lock up or kill all the criminals ourselves then? If we're just going to let people like Kiyama do whatever she wants with peoples' brains for the purpose of thining the herd of the unworthy, why not just do it for her then?

That would be because the government would have no reason to use it, or no reason to use it for what Kiyama wants to achieve. The level upper doesn't actually increase people's levels, it just connects them to a network that allows them to 'pool' and 'borrow' others' power. There is no net gain in ability, so while interesting, it's actually a pretty useless invention (spoiler: the government wouldn't even be interested in the prospective computing power, as they've got the tree diagram for that).

Obviously you don't have kids. Your standpoint is making it quite clear. As for why I'm framing the situation this way, well, it should be quite obvious. But thank you for pointing out part of my point; you'd let your kid use LU if you could speak to the doctor who made it, right? But where in this situation are people able to ask the creator of LU about it? Saten got it off a website. With no contact or origin information.

You're framing the standpoint in this manner in order to artifically enforce a perspective which would make Saten look bad? Sorry, but it doesn't work. As a viewer, I don't care about Saten's parents' or Saten's friends' parents' perspective. I care about Saten's, and whether or not she is a sympathetic character.

The hypothetical situation you inflicted upon me also departs from the show in that I would know precisely the costs/repurcussions (a bit of time spent unconscious), and that the effect is impermanent. Not to mention, parents don't actually live in Academy City. Kinda irrelevant all around, really.

Now you're cearly exaggerating my points. Who said "execute?" I said "head on a silver platter," which by no means equals killing anybody. It's a figure of speech. But they'd sure as heck want her brought in to answer for her doings.

And? Where did I imply that Kiyama shouldn't be brought in for questioning? I simply stated that I, in no way representing the authorities and having only a 'my own safety' stake in public order, would find Kiyama's activities relatively harmless. Or rather: given my semi-omnicient view into the lives of fictional characters,

Spoiler:

few of the people affected by the level upper could ultimately be considered victims.

And where is this pointed out? Not only are you trying to reshape the obvious, stated truth to fit your point, it still means she intentionally involved her friends in "breaking the implicit rules" that were set forth by the city's law-enforcing powers.
Like I said, what her friends wanted is irrelevant, and it doesn't mean it's okay to help them. Giving them the means makes her responsible for the consequences.

What reshaping an obvious, stated truth? Saten said pretty clearly "I didn't know it caused users to fall unconscious." Furthermore, "I was hesitant because you mentioned arresting those who used it." Nowhere is it implied that Saten's fear was based on health-related grounds. And if you're condemning Saten strictly on the basis of dabbling in some moderately shady underground activities with her friends, then I just have to say that not everybody's some perfect, utterly law-abiding, model-citizen-from-the-age-of-14 paragon like you.

Lol, oh really? So it's okay to just throw the thing around to everybody when your own instincts are clearly telling you not to use the thing? And I certainly wouldn't ask her to take it alone; I'd ask her to not take the dang thing at all. But if she's going to take the thing no matter what I or her friends say anyway, then why not take it alone before putting others at risk as well? She says she cares about other people and has acted on that before, but apparently that was selective because she didn't act on it this time. This is definitely a big reason for why I criticize her.

Again, you're misunderstanding Saten's fear to be based on health and well-being. Projecting your personal revulsion over anything that tampers with the delicate functioning of the human body. And using your meta-knowledge of a coma that in fact results from unrelated and unpredictable causes to justify that fear. When in fact, Saten had no certainty over the reality of 'side effects', no conception of their severity, and really quite reasonably believed that nothing as bad as completely non-functioning comas could possibly occur. The nature and degree of Saten's 'punishment' more closely resembles getting nailed and sued for being a torrent user than anything drug related.

[Jin Kizuite]

OMG, I visit and I see pages long of intensive discussions. O_O
*Drowns in text*

Anyway just wanted to say, best episode ever! Also glad they showed Satan's ability was wind control which they didn't in the manga from my memory. Was also quite the tearjerker when she and Uihara were talking on the phone.

I can die happy now.

[Joe_fh]

Originally Posted by Haak

She was just happy that she finally got it. I mean she spent years of depression over not having an ability. And after all, they all have to start somewhere.

Point is she didn't want it to help people at that point. She was just being slefish - every person is at some point. Still I'm not saying it's wrong to be selfish since that's not really possible but she decided to to something stupid dangerous and didn't even consider the consequences which is wrong.

Also from a completely different point of view the fact that she tries to help might not be because she is a good hearted person but because she is a level 0 and the only way to show she is capable of doing something is by helping others. It sounds logical and is as likely as everything else.

Originally Posted by Haak

I'm really not sure how living alone and coming at an early age can somehow make her manage to come to terms with things.

My point was that by living alone all this time she should be more mature for a person her age. This has more to do with the decision she made.
And my other point was that by living in AC for all this time and being a level 0 all this time should have helped her come in terms with the fact she is a level 0. Even if that feeling isn't completely gone she should still have moved forward.

Originally Posted by Haak

She probably did, too, but like I said being around Kuroko and Misaka only made things worse for her, rather than better. Misaka said it herself that Saten was actually trying to talk to her about it and Misaka herself admitted that she didn't think she could help.

We can't be sure since we haven't seen her before. She was sort of dpressed in episode one when she just met Misaka. Either way I believe that having people to talk to (in this case mostly Uiharu since she is in a similar situation and has been in it for quite some time as well) would halp you move forrward. You have to admit that when she actually talked to Uiharu on the phone in this episode it really helped her. But coudln't she do it before using the LU? Of course she could and Uiharu would have said the same thing to her yet she didn't for some reason and made that inconsiderate stupid and dangerous decision instead.

Originally Posted by Haak

I think the way Saten talked about it as if it was something painful, suggests that we were meant to look at it from her POV rather than as more background. She thought she was going to die and right in the middle of a conversation with Uihara she starts thinking about her. I just think it's too important to consider as just background info. Misaka clearly condsidered it important.

Background character infromation helps build a character thus it's important for character development. So I do believe it was that kind of information. It was there to give us a better understanding of Saten's character.
And saying mommy while you're scared isn't really something strange that needs further explanation.

Originally Posted by Haak

I think she must have had a reason for believing she was defective. If I'm not mistaken, in Index, that pink haired sensei explained about the oddities of Level Zero and said it herself that they were an odd case that go against all the theory. Even Misaka recongised that there is a case of "Levels mean everything". Perhaps Misaka could've been wrong but I think that bit was the authors attempt at trying to explain Saten's character though Misaka. It's not like he hasn't done it before.

Well it all depends on the point of view and the person since we've seen many points of view on levels in AC. Mine is that it shouldn't but every person has one. That however again doesn't jsutify what she did which is the whole point of all this. As I said I felt sympathy towards Saten for being a level 0 and having her dreams shatered as a fellow human being but not for what she did.

Originally Posted by Cyrus17

Btw guys did you remember that argument from the 5th ep. thread about whether Kuroko can teleport people by holding to their clothes or not? Here is the answer:

Yes I noticed that as well so I guess I was wrong in my asumption. Or maybe she coudln't at that time? Who knows? Fact is she didn't otherwise we wouldn't have had that sort of character development. Oh and in episode 9 she also teleported people by touching their clothes^^

Originally Posted by Ansalem

You can't separate all the things you've said. You have said that she deserves to have fallen into a coma. A child deserve that? For taking level uppers? You can't just avoid your words.

How am I avoiding them when I just repeated what I said earlier? A person stupid enough to do something dangerous because he doesn't think about what might happen deserve what's coming to them. In her case she also didn't consider the impact her actions would have on her friends. The more dangerous the thing you ignored the dire the consequences.
Id doesn't mean I don't want her to get better. I just don't feel sorry for her because she screwed up big time and involved the people around her.

Originally Posted by Ansalem

Again, not being drugs (or medicine) does not create the inherent potential for more danger.

Do you really not understand the thing I said or you just don't want to understand it?

Originally Posted by Ansalem

I know you weren't the person who brought up the term, but you defended it. In any case, there is still no way that a reasonable person would expect LU to cause all users to fall into a coma. There is nothing for her to add up. It's a new substance, that seems to work in a similar way to the process they induce powers in the first place, and she's heard there may be side effects. You make it sound as though there's pile of dubious evidence. Sure, it may not be the best idea. It seems shady. But it's a well known urban legend, with seemingly wide underground usage. A reasonable person would not expect that substance to cause a coma for all users. There's really not much more on this point.

Again with the coma.
Yes no one would expect they might end up in a coma because that's a specific side effect that can be known only after seeing the result of using the LU.
What if it wasn't a come what if it was cancer, or a stroke or paralysis or hundreds of other outcomes of messing around with a person's brain. Again it's your brain how is tamepring with it in an uknown way safe? How can a reasonable person consider this safe?
How is it similar when you have no information on how it works who made it and what happened to the people who use. The only information you have on users is a theory by a person in Judjement based on the facts they have at the moment.
Not to mention you found the thing in a hidden link on the internet which puts it's credibility below shady.
And ignoring all these things seems reasonable to you?

Originally Posted by Ansalem

I addressed all your points. Reasonable people do try new things. She did not hear any solid information, even if it was from a Judgment. The entire city that they live in is based on the idea of messing with their brains in novel ways. That's why it's reasonable.

And I already said what kind of new things reasonable people try. Reasonable people take reasonable risks when trying new things.
Messing with their brains by official scientists in a safe and tested way. How is the LU similar to this?

Originally Posted by Ansalem

The problem here is you are trying to think of reasonable to do = a good idea/something with absolutely no problems. That's not what this is about. It's about whether the outcome would be predictable by a normal person. Which it's not.

I didn't say there are no problems. I said he thinks about what the problems might be and he makes his decisions based on the pros and cons. It's common sense that if the cons out-weight the pros by far it is not a reasonable risk to take. Which seems to be the case here.
As I said above (yet again) this specific outcome isn't predictable because it's too specific but there are even more dangerous possible outcomes of using the LU

Originally Posted by Ansalem

She made a mistake. There are no laws against this. The main issue here is that is the immense ridiculousness and callousness of someone saying that a middle school girl using a new unknown substance with her friends deserves to fall into a coma. Good grief.

No the main issue here is that her actions are not jutified at all. You are missing the whole point of the discussion at hand.
If she is stupid enough to use an uknown substance in the first place. That migh lead to absolutely all kinds of outcomes.

Yes maybe I am a bit callous and that's probably because she is a fictional character and I don't like to see fictional characters which in a sense promote acting like an idiot adn saying it's ok. I'm baffled by the fact that some people see her actions as reasonable and justifiable.

Originally Posted by DJ Trouble

This is funny. Your definition of reasonable fits closer to most people's definition of wise. Thinking things through, planning ahead, weighing the consequences of your actions; these are all signs of a wise person and things that children are not expected to do. These are things that even most adults struggle with.

I didn't mention planning ahead though^^ But yes I believe thinking about the pros and cons of your actions when it comes to something like this is "reasonable" . That's why I said we probably have a different definition of reasonable in the first place. Though I thik the definition of reasonable has to do with having sound judgment which you can't have if you don't think about what you're doing.
Well different people have different definition bu as I said again and again using something made by god know who that you have no information about and it messes with your brain in an unknown way to give you super powers does not seem reasonable to me at all.

Originally Posted by DJ Trouble

I don't think anyone would expect to fall into a coma from listening to music though. That's really stupid.

I already said why it's dangerous and what the side effecst might be considering what is needed to give a person esper powers and that is tamper with the brain in some way.
Tampering with the brain = can potentionally have really dangerous side effects.
Or at least this seems logical. Note I'm not talking about the coma but the dangers of meddling with the brain which might lead to things even worse than a coma.
You and Shinji talked more about this but I think covers most of the points you made about this.

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

Ooh, anything that alters one's body in any manner must be shady and dangerous, right? Your fragile conception and compulsive fear of the human body and what a sound file can do to it has no basis in reality. Given the setting, how would something that grants a person superpowers presumably work? In a similar way as the officially sanctioned process, right? And you don't see normal users falling into comas left and right. The presumption that level upper is inherently dangerous is equivalent to saying that powers are inherently dangerous. That is antithetical to the very existance of academy city.

I believe that if something alters your body/mind in any way and you have no idea who made, how it works and what are the dangers of using it you should probably reconside using it.
Look at this way - the only way to gain a power is to tamper with the body/mind.
This means that the only way for the LU to level you up is to mess with your mind/body.
You have no idea what this might cause (explained in my first point) unlike the official way since it has been tested and it is safe. That doesn't mean the LU works in the same way thus it's alos safe. The LU just tampers with the brain in some unknown way. The fact that Kuroko was surprised by it being a music file shows that it works in a completely different way than the official "power giving" method in AC.

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

I thought I'd stated pretty clearly that the comas aren't an effect of the level upper. At the very least, they aren't an effect of the level upping part of the leverl upper, which doesn't even function as it might be presumed to anyway. The argument that 'level upper must have dangerous side effects!' (lol at your random subject change) is completely dismantled.

Really? If by using the LU you go into a coma how is that not a side effect?
I don't want to spoil anything about the LU at this point so I can't say what's a side effect, what is the main purpose of it and how it actually works but it doesn't change the fact that the people that use a LU go into a coma.
About the part "why it must have dangeous side effects" see above. You are using your meta-knowledge of how the LU actually work to dismiss the health risk but none of the characters in the anime knew what and how the LU really worked.

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

Again, you're misunderstanding Saten's fear to be based on health and well-being. Projecting your personal revulsion over anything that tampers with the delicate functioning of the human body. And using your meta-knowledge of a coma that in fact results from unrelated and unpredictable causes to justify that fear. When in fact, Saten had no certainty over the reality of 'side effects', no conception of their severity, and really quite reasonably believed that nothing as bad as completely non-functioning comas could possibly occur.

I mentioned the potential health risks that come with using the LU and they should be the most logical from what she knew at the time.
The fact that her fear was apperantly not based on that simply showed that she didn't even consider them in the first place when in fact they seem pretty obvious even if they are only potentionally there. Of course it might not cause any harm but it also might kill you by causing your brain to go haywire. There' no way to know that for sure. Not considering tham doesn't mean they are not there in the first place.
Also she did ignore the theory Kuroko made about the LU users having a tendecy to commit crimes which was based on the facts they had at that time thus making quite the sound theory at that point. Since she is the one investigating this her oppinion has enough credibility on it's own.
She didn't consider the health risks and she didn't even consider anything Kuroko told her. What if she turned violent and started trying to kill people like the bomber guy? She would have gone to jail and forever having to bare theconsequences that followed plus the scar of hurting her firends (in this case mostly Uiharu) and betraying them for the rest of her life because she didn't think about how dangerous and inconsiderate her actions were.

It's not a question about law-abiding at all - it's about considering the dangers and the consequences of your actions to you and to those that you care about.

Sorry for not adressing all your points but those were the ones that caught my eye plus you're actually talking to Shinji and not me in the first place.

How's this for a wall of text

[Haak]

I reckon this is cleaner. Those who are addressing more than one person can make seperate spoiler tags.

Spoiler for space:

Originally Posted by Joe_fh

Point is she didn't want it to help people at that point. She was just being slefish - every person is at some point. Still I'm not saying it's wrong to be selfish since that's not really possible but she decided to to something stupid dangerous and didn't even consider the consequences which is wrong.

She might have done. i don't see why not. Just because she was happy that she had an ability that couldn't be useful yet, does not mean it was her only reason.

Also from a completely different point of view the fact that she tries to help might not be because she is a good hearted person but because she is a level 0 and the only way to show she is capable of doing something is by helping others. It sounds logical and is as likely as everything else.

True, but if I ever judged someone, then I'd rather give them the benefit of the doubt. I mean come on. You said that one of her friends ought to die to teach her a lesson. Now that's a tad bit extreme when you consider your judgement rests on subjective premises, right?

My point was that by living alone all this time she should be more mature for a person her age. This has more to do with the decision she made.

Pehrpas in some aspects she might have been, but i see no correlation between living alone and being able to resisting social influences. I don't think it applies in this case.

And my other point was that by living in AC for all this time and being a level 0 all this time should have helped her come in terms with the fact she is a level 0. Even if that feeling isn't completely gone she should still have moved forward.

I think you're greatly underestimating the powers of social influences. I mean conformity and social norms is probably the biggest factor in shaping our beliefs. Even if you are aware of them they're extremely difficult to get rid of. She could have moved on. But I think that's expected far too much. The fact that she lived there for a long time doesn't mean anything if she was a child the whole time.

Also bear in mind the culture. I think you're presenting very Individualistic morals whilst Japan is known for being more Collectivist. And there is a correlation between Collectivist societies and more conformity:
http://www.informaworld.com/smpp/con...l~jumptype=rss

Background character infromation helps build a character thus it's important for character development. So I do believe it was that kind of information. It was there to give us a better understanding of Saten's character.
And saying mommy while you're scared isn't really something strange that needs further explanation.

It didn't really give us any info other than the fact that she had a very supportive mother that she loves very much. It doesn't sound like something that needs to be repeated like Misaka did. If it wasn't something that had any affect on why Saten did what she did, then why did the author make Misaka talk about it again?

Well it all depends on the point of view and the person since we've seen many points of view on levels in AC. Mine is that it shouldn't but every person has one. That however again doesn't jsutify what she did which is the whole point of all this. As I said I felt sympathy towards Saten for being a level 0 and having her dreams shatered as a fellow human being but not for what she did.

Haven't we only seen two? And the other one was Uiharu having an emotional conversation with a distressed Saten, whilst the other was shown quite frequentl in both Railgun and Index. Anyway, I'll reiterate that i'm not trying to justify her actions, but simply show that we can't completely condemn her either.

[Ansalem]

Originally Posted by Joe_fh

How am I avoiding them when I just repeated what I said earlier? A person stupid enough to do something dangerous because he doesn't think about what might happen deserve what's coming to them. In her case she also didn't consider the impact her actions would have on her friends. The more dangerous the thing you ignored the dire the consequences.
Id doesn't mean I don't want her to get better. I just don't feel sorry for her because she screwed up big time and involved the people around her.

Ah, Saten is stupid now, too. Good to know.

Do you really not understand the thing I said or you just don't want to understand it?

I understand perfectly what you're trying to say. That still doesn't make it make sense. I've said why it doesn't.

Again with the coma.
Yes no one would expect they might end up in a coma because that's a specific side effect that can be known only after seeing the result of using the LU.
What if it wasn't a come what if it was cancer, or a stroke or paralysis or hundreds of other outcomes of messing around with a person's brain.

Yes, the coma again. If you don't want to argue criminal negligence, you shouldn't have defended it. Action: Taking level uppers. Result: Coma. Normal person expect this: No. Finding: No criminal negligence.

I didn't say there are no problems. I said he thinks about what the problems might be and he makes his decisions based on the pros and cons. It's common sense that if the cons out-weight the pros by far it is not a reasonable risk to take. Which seems to be the case here.
As I said above (yet again) this specific outcome isn't predictable because it's too specific but there are even more dangerous possible outcomes of using the LU

It's not whether a reasonable person would do it, it's not whether it's a good idea. It's whether a reasonable person would expect that an outcome like that would happen. I'm not saying they need magical foresight. We're not going to take a jury ignorant to the story, give them the background, then if they don't predict coma, Saten's off the hook. But a person would not expect a coma or worse from LU in the situation in which Saten found herself.

No the main issue here is that her actions are not jutified at all. You are missing the whole point of the discussion at hand.
If she is stupid enough to use an uknown substance in the first place. That migh lead to absolutely all kinds of outcomes.

I posted because people, including yourself, were portraying Saten in a horrific light. That was my main issue, and still is my main issue. I have never said that I would have done what Saten did. Or that I don't think it was a mistake. But I do think that many people, especially children, would do it. I don't think it's necessary to vilify her.

Yes maybe I am a bit callous and that's probably because she is a fictional character and I don't like to see fictional characters which in a sense promote acting like an idiot adn saying it's ok. I'm baffled by the fact that some people see her actions as reasonable and justifiable.

Yes, we should all learn our life lessons from anime, so it should portray all people as model citizens. It is perfectly natural to see how a teenage girl would do all the things she did. It is human to sympathize with such a character. If that baffles you, I'm sorry.

[Sol Falling]

Originally Posted by Joe_fh

I believe that if something alters your body/mind in any way and you have no idea who made, how it works and what are the dangers of using it you should probably reconside using it.
Look at this way - the only way to gain a power is to tamper with the body/mind.
This means that the only way for the LU to level you up is to mess with your mind/body.
You have no idea what this might cause (explained in my first point) unlike the official way since it has been tested and it is safe. That doesn't mean the LU works in the same way thus it's alos safe. The LU just tampers with the brain in some unknown way. The fact that Kuroko was surprised by it being a music file shows that it works in a completely different way than the official "power giving" method in AC.



Really? If by using the LU you go into a coma how is that not a side effect?
I don't want to spoil anything about the LU at this point so I can't say what's a side effect, what is the main purpose of it and how it actually works but it doesn't change the fact that the people that use a LU go into a coma.
About the part "why it must have dangeous side effects" see above. You are using your meta-knowledge of how the LU actually work to dismiss the health risk but none of the characters in the anime knew what and how the LU really worked.



I mentioned the potential health risks that come with using the LU and they should be the most logical from what she knew at the time.
The fact that her fear was apperantly not based on that simply showed that she didn't even consider them in the first place when in fact they seem pretty obvious even if they are only potentionally there. Of course it might not cause any harm but it also might kill you by causing your brain to go haywire. There' no way to know that for sure. Not considering tham doesn't mean they are not there in the first place.
Also she did ignore the theory Kuroko made about the LU users having a tendecy to commit crimes which was based on the facts they had at that time thus making quite the sound theory at that point. Since she is the one investigating this her oppinion has enough credibility on it's own.
She didn't consider the health risks and she didn't even consider anything Kuroko told her. What if she turned violent and started trying to kill people like the bomber guy? She would have gone to jail and forever having to bare theconsequences that followed plus the scar of hurting her firends (in this case mostly Uiharu) and betraying them for the rest of her life because she didn't think about how dangerous and inconsiderate her actions were.

It's not a question about law-abiding at all - it's about considering the dangers and the consequences of your actions to you and to those that you care about.

Sorry for not adressing all your points but those were the ones that caught my eye plus you're actually talking to Shinji and not me in the first place.

Guy, seriously. Cancer? A stroke? Paralysis?! Acquire a basic understanding of what actually causes these things before you go all 'uahhh a sound file my brain!!1!' etc. etc. etc. Try to understand: it's the (physical) body that shapes the (non-physical) mind, not the other way around. Listening to a sound file cannot cause a cell to grow uncontrollably, clog your arteries, or degenerate your motor nerves. The only thing a sound file could possibly do to you (aside from shatter your eardrums if you play it really loudly) is alter your mental state. The kind of stuff you are saying is utterly impossible, and any reasonable person would know that.

You've also got a completely wrong idea about the 'level upper users tend to commit crime' issue (in case you're not clear about this, go watch episode 9 again: this is all Kuroko says about crime and level upper). Tending to commit crime does not mean level upper causes it. Rather, it is obvious that the correlation is caused by the fact that people with criminal intentions are more likely to make use of it. If you didn't have at least a vague purpose in mind for the power Level Upper would give you, why would you use it in the first place?

Not to mention, the idea that Level Upper somehow hypnotizes its users into being criminals is a huge stretch by any standard. It's a tiny .mp3 file that's already got its hands full trying to give people superpowers. Adding a mind-altering component to it would be stupidly complicated (not to mention, what's the point? From a design standpoint).

Please let me reemphasize that Kuroko never even suggests that Level Upper causes people to commit crime. The idea that Level Upper could turn her into a criminal would (rightly) never have even crossed Saten's mind.

[Cyrus17]

How do you like this brand new WoW item?

Here:

[Primary Consult]

For all of this "Saten should have known better" crap, I have to point something out.

She is a first-year middle school student, which in most cases is age 11-12. She is not a Judgement member with the appropriate training and insight into the world of unsightly things.

As someone who grew up in a major city (and thus had mobility without supervision since that age), I can tell you, your "common sense" is at 'level 1', if even, compared to the level of after college. While in a literary sense, we can draw a parallel between LU and potentially harmful drugs, your average inferiority-complex laden 11 year old will only see the beneficial effects of it.

And finally, the LU is an .mp3. You know what else is an .mp3? Sleep hypnosis and Language learning aids. Which is more reasonable to assume, that an .mp3 could physically harm you, or that an .mp3 can help you do something you couldn't do before?

Edit: Cyrus, I spilled my Pepsi thanks to that, kudos .

[Forbin]

Originally Posted by Cyrus17

How do you like this brand new WoW item?

Here:

Lol Cyrus, we have that! It's called buying your character.

Level 80's running around who don't know how to use their class. /sigh

[Haak]

Just so everyone knows, I made another ninja edit, where i provided a link to a study that shows how Collectivist societies such as Japan are more conforming.

[Joe_fh]

Originally Posted by Haak

She might have done. i don't see why not. Just because she was happy that she had an ability that couldn't be useful yet, does not mean it was her only reason.

Well from all the things she said this episode it seemed like that to me.
When I think about it helping otheres to prove herself does sound reasonble in this case.
Still I prefer her being a good hearted person side for some reason.

Originally Posted by Haak

True, but if I ever judged someone, then I'd rather give them the benefit of the doubt. I mean come on. You said that one of her friends ought to die to teach her a lesson. Now that's a tad bit extreme when you consider your judgement rests on subjective premises, right?

Haha yes that was extreme but I only said it once just after watching the episode because I was really angry with Saten for involving her friends. After that I completely dropped it.
As I said earlier to Ansalem I don't like when fictional characters in a sense promote acting like an idiot and walking unhermed from it without sufferig the consequences. This was my way of saying she should realise how dangerous and ignorant her actions were in an extreme, angry way.

Originally Posted by Haak

Pehrpas in some aspects she might have been, but i see no correlation between living alone and being able to resisting social influences. I don't think it applies in this case.

It's not about this but about how as a more mature person she should have understood better the dangers of her actions.

Originally Posted by Haak

I think you're greatly underestimating the powers of social influences. I mean conformity and social norms is probably the biggest factor in shaping our beliefs. Even if you are aware of them they're extremely difficult to get rid of. She could have moved on. But I think that's expected far too much. The fact that she lived there for a long time doesn't mean anything if she was a child the whole time.

Yes probably I am. Otherwise I wouldn't be watching anime since society as a whole looks down on this for some reason. (that is a completely different topic though) But in general you're right. As I said it wasn't necessery to have moved on but just made her first steps in moving on. From what we saw in ep 1 she didn't at all which is quite hard to understand considering there are people who are always there for her.

Originally Posted by Haak

Also bear in mind the culture. I think you're presenting very Individualistic morals whilst Japan is known for being more Collectivist.

Point taken

Originally Posted by Haak

It didn't really give us any info other than the fact that she had a very supportive mother that she loves very much. It doesn't sound like something that needs to be repeated like Misaka did. If it wasn't something that had any affect on why Saten did what she did, then why did the author make Misaka talk about it again?

Actually it gave us information about Saten's dream and that even her mother who was against it to begin with believed it was what she really wanted. I mean it's hard to let your 7 eyer old child go to a city far away on her own. So in a way Saten felt she would probably disappoint her mother for not having a power which of course was just her imagining things.

Originally Posted by Haak

Haven't we only seen two? And the other one was Uiharu having an emotional conversation with a distressed Saten, whilst the other was shown quite frequentl in both Railgun and Index. Anyway, I'll reiterate that i'm not trying to justify her actions, but simply show that we can't completely condemn her either.

You also have Touma's one and I believe there are others but I can't give you a clear example right now. Point is not everyone thinks level is everything.

You also missed one of my ninja edits though
And wall of texts are fun so no spoilers for now ^^

Originally Posted by Ansalem

Ah, Saten is stupid now, too. Good to know.

Way to avoit everything I just said and quote onyl one word^^

Originally Posted by Ansalem

I understand perfectly what you're trying to say. That still doesn't make it make sense. I've said why it doesn't.

No you said something random that doesn't make sense and never said anything about the explanation I gave you.

Originally Posted by Ansalem

Yes, the coma again. If you don't want to argue criminal negligence, you shouldn't have defended it. Action: Taking level uppers. Result: Coma. Normal person expect this: No. Finding: No criminal negligence.

Hmm I gave it as an example how by definition ignorance doen't mean your actions were right. After that the dabate about what a reasonable person would expect started and I said that using criminal negligence is going a bit far .I don't believe that's actually defending it but oh well.
I still think it's going too far but I'll gvie an example either way:
Action: taking LU . Result: any kind of harm to the body or mind caused by it (in this case coma). Normal person (who like Saten knew that the LU tampers with the person's brain in an uknown way and it's creator is also unknown) expecting it : A coma no, potential health problems: yes.

Originally Posted by Ansalem

It's not whether a reasonable person would do it, it's not whether it's a good idea. It's whether a reasonable person would expect that an outcome like that would happen. I'm not saying they need magical foresight. We're not going to take a jury ignorant to the story, give them the background, then if they don't predict coma, Saten's off the hook. But a person would not expect a coma or worse from LU in the situation in which Saten found herself.

Ahaa so you still don't see the tampering with your brain part having a potentionally dangerous side effect?
The question was and still is will a reasonable person use it considering the possibly dangeous side effects.

Originally Posted by Ansalem

I posted because people, including yourself, were portraying Saten in a horrific light. That was my main issue, and still is my main issue. I have never said that I would have done what Saten did. Or that I don't think it was a mistake. But I do think that many people, especially children, would do it. I don't think it's necessary to vilify her.

Well I said I wasn't trying to portray her as a monster or even anything close nor did anyone else from the things I've read thus you're just seing it this way.

In this train of thoughts I can say you're justifying her actions and saying everything she did is perfectly ok and in general when a person does something wrong because he didn't really think about the dangers of what he's doing he did the right thing and it's ok. That of course would be wrong since you said you didn't justify her actions.

Originally Posted by Ansalem

Yes, we should all learn our life lessons from anime, so it should portray all people as model citizens. It is perfectly natural to see how a teenage girl would do all the things she did. It is human to sympathize with such a character. If that baffles you, I'm sorry.

I never said that. I meant that since it's an anime I'll be ok with more extreme consequences for doing the wrong thing instead of thinking it through.
From your last point it seems to me that anything done by a teenage girl with crushed dreams that doesn't consider what might happen even if it's obviously potentially very dangerous and will hurt the people around her is a person we should sypathize with.

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

Guy, seriously. Cancer? A stroke? Paralysis?! Acquire a basic understanding of what actually causes these things before you go all 'uahhh a sound file my brain!!1!' etc. etc. etc. Try to understand: it's the (physical) body that shapes the (non-physical) mind, not the other way around. Listening to a sound file cannot cause a cell to grow uncontrollably, clog your arteries, or degenerate your motor nerves. The only thing a sound file could possibly do to you (aside from shatter your eardrums if you play it really loudly) is alter your mental state. The kind of stuff you are saying is utterly impossible, and any reasonable person would know that.

Yes Cancer is really far-fetched but it was used as an example. There are many things that are dangerous and connected to brain activity yet I'm not going to list them all. I'm sure you know there are many of them.
I think it's not a strech to say that in a world where super powers exist a music file can in some way use sound frequency to somehow influence brain impulses or simply by overwelming your brain with signals (since it stimulates your senses) maks your brain go haywire thus paralysis is not out of the question at all. It's not only caused by degenerate your motor nerves but impulses not reaching the muscles. Again listening to music can cause a rise in blood presure thus causing a stroke. If this could be manipulated in a way it can be used to cause a stroke for sure.
How come you think an mp3 file can give you superpowers but can't cause any kind of other harm when it does things to your brain and you don't know what they are?
And if it can change your brain waves to fit a certain pattern they have the technology to make it cause all kinds of different health problems as well. Saten didn't know it makes the brain waves fit a certain pattern but I think she was aware of the scietific progress in the world around her especially considering the fact she lives in AC.

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

You've also got a completely wrong idea about the 'level upper users tend to commit crime' issue (in case you're not clear about this, go watch episode 9 again: this is all Kuroko says about crime and level upper). Tending to commit crime does not mean level upper causes it. Rather, it is obvious that the correlation is caused by the fact that people with criminal intentions are more likely to make use of it. If you didn't have at least a vague purpose in mind for the power Level Upper would give you, why would you use it in the first place?

And why do you think she meant something different when in fact at that time the only people that were known to have used the LU commited crime.
And why would you use the LU? For a ton of reason. Did they know of other people using it except for the ones thatcommited crimes? No. Did these people commit crimes before? No.
"have a tendency to commit crime" means that most people who use the LU commit crime. Fact is there weren't so many cases before the LU so I don't see how that is huge strech at all.

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

Not to mention, the idea that Level Upper somehow hypnotizes its users into being criminals is a huge stretch by any standard. It's a tiny .mp3 file that's already got its hands full trying to give people superpowers. Adding a mind-altering component to it would be stupidly complicated (not to mention, what's the point? From a design standpoint).

What kind of argument is that "It's a tiny .mp3 file that's already got its hands full trying to give people superpowers."? How do you know how big the file is or what's actually on it in the first place. It's really a strech to say this actually.
We have absolutely no idea for what it was made and Saten doen't even know who made it.
Why is adding a mind-altering component be stupidly complicated when it has a brain wave altering component in it? In fact it would be really easy to add it.
And what's the point you ask? Depends on the person that made it. Like most bad guys the objective might be terror and mayhem.
Actually what do you think is the poin of increasin someone's level and sharing this without getting anything in return?(Saten has no idea who made it and why and with what Kuroko said plus increasing crime rates it should make you wonder)

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

Please let me reemphasize that Kuroko never even suggests that Level Upper causes people to commit crime. The idea that Level Upper could turn her into a criminal would (rightly) never have even crossed Saten's mind.

She said that LU users commit crimes. Simple as that. It's your point of view that it has nothing to do with the LU and is caused by the people that use it since you know this is true. Kuroko didn't know waht you do at that time so my point is valid. Not to mention they said they might take LU users into custody for their own protection just before Kuroko mentione the crime tendency. For a person hearing only those two points it will suggest that they'll take them into custody so they not do something violent and dangerous which will make them a criminal or even worse. I'm well aware that she meant it because of the come but they didn't mention that at all. Thus these two things sound in a completely different way from Saten's point of view compared to the Viewrs(who are rpovided with all the infromation) point of view at to a lesser extent Kuroko's.

[Haak]

Originally Posted by Joe_fh

Well from all the things she said this episode it seemed like that to me.
When I think about it helping otheres to prove herself does sound reasonble in this case.
Still I prefer her being a good hearted person side for some reason.


Haha yes that was extreme but I only said it once just after watching the episode because I was really angry with Saten for involving her friends. After that I completely dropped it.
As I said earlier to Ansalem I don't like when fictional characters in a sense promote acting like an idiot and walking unhermed from it without sufferig the consequences. This was my way of saying she should realise how dangerous and ignorant her actions were in an extreme, angry way.



It's not about this but about how as a more mature person she should have understood better the dangers of her actions.


Yes probably I am. Otherwise I wouldn't be watching anime since society as a whole looks down on this for some reason. (that is a completely different topic though) But in general you're right. As I said it wasn't necessery to have moved on but just made her first steps in moving on. From what we saw in ep 1 she didn't at all which is quite hard to understand considering there are people who are always there for her.



Point taken

Actually it gave us information about Saten's dream and that even her mother who was against it to begin with believed it was what she really wanted. I mean it's hard to let your 7 eyer old child go to a city far away on her own. So in a way Saten felt she would probably disappoint her mother for not having a power which of course was just her imagining things.

There's nothing really here, i can argue with...

You also have Touma's one and I believe there are others but I can't give you a clear example right now. Point is not everyone thinks level is everything.

Touma doesn't count. He's the freaking Messiah.

You also missed one of my ninja edits though

Damn! I haven't been watching enough Naruto!

[spawnofthejudge]

Two logic and math points:

First, correlation does not equal causation. There is a connection between the LU and crime, which Kuroko has mentioned aloud, but that doesn't mean it's the reason, particularly by itself, that these people are committing crime.

Plus, a 'tendency' only implies that the group of those who have used the LU are more likely (by some amount) to commit crime than those who haven't. This could be 4% to 20%, a significant difference (Five times more likely!) but still not MOST of the LU users. It also could be 10% to 90%, or 8% to 33% or even 4% to 6% (This is where we start getting to the point that knowing Japanese would be extremely helpful, as knowing precisely what Kuroko is implying seems to matter here). As Kuroko only knows the people who have the LU who have comitted crimes her sample's biased.

For what it's worth, I don't think Saten's acting out of line (particularly not criminally so). Made a mistake, yes. Gonna pay for it (is paying for it), yes. Sympathetic anyway? Yes.

[Ansalem]

Originally Posted by Joe_fh

Way to avoit everything I just said and quote onyl one word^^

You haven't said anything new except that's she's stupid.

No you said something random that doesn't make sense and never said anything about the explanation I gave you.

I did not say something random that doesn't make sense. You compared it to being drugs. I said it's not, it's unique. You said that being unique makes it potentially more dangerous than if it were drugs. Nothing in this situation would make someone think that being its own substance creates an inherent danger, especially one greater than drugs. I have covered your explanations. You stopped arguing to posts ago and have just been saying I'm too dumb to get your point or I'm spouting nonsense.

Hmm I gave it as an example how by definition ignorance doen't mean your actions were right. After that the dabate about what a reasonable person would expect started and I said that using criminal negligence is going a bit far .I don't believe that's actually defending it but oh well.
I still think it's going too far but I'll gvie an example either way:
Action: taking LU . Result: any kind of harm to the body or mind caused by it (in this case coma). Normal person (who like Saten knew that the LU tampers with the person's brain in an uknown way and it's creator is also unknown) expecting it : A coma no, potential health problems: yes.

Sigh, if you aren't defended that it's criminal negligence, why are you still arguing this point? Ignorance does indeed not mean your actions are right. If you are ignorant of a law and break it, you are still breaking it. In this case, Saten did not break any laws. However, from her actions, she and her friends have gone into comas. I think there is nothing that would make a person think that a coma could result from using level uppers. You think there is. There's nothing further to argue on this point.

Ahaa so you still don't see the tampering with your brain part having a potentionally dangerous side effect?
The question was and still is will a reasonable person use it considering the possibly dangeous side effects.

What question? We were talking about criminal negligence and that's NOT what that means. I also like how you add dangerous every time you use the word side effects.

Well I said I wasn't trying to portray her as a monster or even anything close nor did anyone else from the things I've read thus you're just seing it this way.

For the love of god, you say she deserves to be in a coma! How can you say that a girl Saten's age deserves that from what she did? Obviously she must be horrible to deserve that fate. You have called her stupid, ignorant, inconsiderate, dangerous, deserves no sympathy, and deserves to be in a coma. You can paint a picture without naming it.

Originally Posted by Joe_fh

In this train of thoughts I can say you're justifying her actions and saying everything she did is perfectly ok and in general when a person does something wrong because he didn't really think about the dangers of what he's doing he did the right thing and it's ok. That of course would be wrong since you said you didn't justify her actions.

Does not compute. In fact, you're saying I'm saying the opposite of what I am saying. I do think Saten made a mistake. I don't think it was a good idea. I still don't really know what these obvious "dangers" you think she is ignoring, because you haven't shown any. But I do think that she's a young girl. We don't judge children as adults. She did not do something outrageous, she did something that is a very normal outcome for a young person in her situation. Her actions are understandable and sympathy is a natural reaction to a person in her current plight.

I never said that. I meant that since it's an anime I'll be ok with more extreme consequences for doing the wrong thing instead of thinking it through.

No, you said "she is a fictional character and I don't like to see fictional characters which in a sense promote acting like an idiot adn saying it's ok." How do those mean the same thing?

From your last point it seems to me that anything done by a teenage girl with crushed dreams that doesn't consider what might happen even if it's obviously potentially very dangerous and will hurt the people around her is a person we should sypathize with.

No. It is not "obviously potentially dangerous and will hurt the people around her." If it were, she wouldn't have used it. Come on! Hearing something has side effects does not imply that! You make it sound like to gain powers, she deliberately set off a bomb while her friends are standing around it or something ridiculous to that extent.