The world of Claymore

[Anh_Minh]

I agree that 450 millions is a lot. I gave ideas to bring that number down.

However, I disagree on the estimation of the size of the Claymore continent. We simply have no way of knowing how big it is.

We know a Claymore may have to march two or three weeks between missions, but does that really represent the size of her territory? Or just a small part? Or does she actually cross boundaries to pick up the slack of another who hasn't been replaced yet or is away on a team thing?


Also, ten deaths per accident seems rather high. Rabona was exceptional. In the case of a single yoma... They eat once every other week. Give it three deaths before they call the Claymore, another one while she's on her way... That's four. Some stuff will bring up the average (like youmas working in groups, or Awakened Beings, but ten seems rather high.)

Originally Posted by Kinematics

If one quarter of all deaths are due to yoma, that puts the total yoma population at about 700 per territory. That would mean one sixth of all yoma are being killed each year. If they had a reproductive rate capable of compensating for that, the human population would have been overwhelmed long before the Organization showed up.

Not necessarily. They'd just have needed some self-regulation mechanism. (Like killing each other for territory, or having a low birthrate when resources (ie, human population) were low.)

[dxanato]

I got another though about this world of Claymore. I guess this shown a bit more in the anime than the Manga but just about every inn they stay has room services. Even crappy inn offer room service. I wish more inn/hotel in out world would take a page from them.

[AVPlaya]

I like the theory of a medieval city-state model. There are no kingdoms but each city more or less govern and police themselves. It's also similar to ancient Greece. The rural townships hire arms for hire to beat off bandits and Claymores to fight off Yoma.

I think the Org is like a secret organization with actual power in this world. They seemed to have designed the world in their own liking and want to keep it this way.

My own theory on Claymores is that both them and Yomas are something created by the Org. Yomas are released periodically to terrorize the population and keep them scared and decentralized, while on the other hand they send out Claymores to collect "protection" money as a form of taxation. It's a very classic Mafia Model of underground economics. This model ensures that they're always in control, and that everyone pay them taxes voluntarily without complaints.

But the chink in the Orgs armor are Awaken ones; they are powerful and they no longer listen to the Org. Not sure why they started to organize - was it to overthrow the org or to dominate the other Awaken Kings? Maybe a bit of both...

[Amirali]

Originally Posted by AVPlaya

But the chink in the Orgs armor are Awaken ones; they are powerful and they no longer listen to the Org. Not sure why they started to organize - was it to overthrow the org or to dominate the other Awaken Kings? Maybe a bit of both...

Hmm..........or perhaps the awakened beings are secretly in cahoots with the Organization, and the main purpose of the claymores is to have the powerful ones periodically awaken and become evil? Sorry to all those offended by reckless speculation.

[Hypernova]

A large population require a matching infrastructure to support them. Given how these people live a rather medieval way of life and value total population shouldn't be more then 100mil. From their view of claymores and what not they don't appear to have sufficient medical tech to maintain high population density given that we don't see any form of sewage or running water. Which would increase rate of disease.

We can pretty much assume that the lowest populated unit is the town, we seen from Raki's case that strong as a yoma it didn't just go wipe out the town. The only case where we see that is when we had 5 of them together. Thus we can say that the average yoma can be taken down by enough men in a town say 30~50. By extension anyone living in farms would get wiped out as they lack the critical population density to have safety in numbers. This also puts a limit on food production as the only land usable are those close to town thus putting a limit on supportable population. And indeed most of the land we see in the anime don't have any signs of human presence.

[AVPlaya]

Originally Posted by amirali1985

Hmm..........or perhaps the awakened beings are secretly in cahoots with the Organization, and the main purpose of the claymores is to have the powerful ones periodically awaken and become evil? Sorry to all those offended by reckless speculation.

It's possible but I don't see how that will help the Org for people to know there are super-powerful beings the Orgs can't beat or control. I believe their true identity is hidden from the public, right? BTW not offended in the least..

Which raised another question by me... The Awaken Ones are really powerful Yomas the Orgs can't control. How did they control all those powerful Claymores? They perfectly loyal until the org betrays them; not a single one wanted to overthrow or destroy the org until they've awakend. Any of the single number Claymore can wipe out the entire Org and take over the Yoma Extortion Business, but they don't. If a Claymore learned all of the Org's methods, they don't really need those ugly men. They are the real power of the Org... or are they?

Spoiler for manga volume 12:

Maybe the Org is more powerful than we think... but if that's the case why do they need the Special Twin model Claymore to defend themselves against the invading Awaken Army? If they are not THAT powerful why don't some of the powerful and smart single number Claymores like Teresa just take over? Mind control? Hypnotism? Why do they need those greedy, selfish, murderous MEN? There sure are a lot of secret yet answered in this world.

[khryoleoz]

That's an interesting question. We can probably guess that the org exercises a form of psychological control to assert their will over their warriors and get them to comply. If the psychology of Claymores are not too different from or are even identical to humans', then we can make pretty accurate assessments by sheer inferences from human psychology.

Granted, we don't know what kind of living entities comprise the executive body of the org. If they're human, then they are by nature weaker than their warriors. Because their world, just like our own, is ruled by the strong, they need some power that is solely and exclusively at their disposal that gives them leverage. And this power is essential in order for them to exert reciprocal consequences to any action of a Claymore that is at variance to their expressed will to whatever degree, even only if they must operate on the theory that they will never have 100% of their warriors in complete obedience producing perfectly accurate work.

I don't quite buy the mercenary parallelism to the Claymore vocation. By definition, a mercenary is distinguished from a soldier in that he works in a military capacity for pay. It could be that as social pariahs, money would be of no value to them. But either way, with the variety of Claymore's we've met and of the few whose motivations we learn about, I have yet to recall one who fits the bill of mercenary.

[Mord]

You should remember that most did not become claymores willingly. Clare is probably the closest to an actual mercenary, while the others are more like slaves forced to act as mercenaries.

Clare willingly went to the organization so that she could accomplish her various goals, and as far as the readers knowledge goes, she is the only one that has willing joined the organization.

Also while they may not have much use for money, we have seen on a few occasions that at the very least they have quite a bit. As a child Clare was worried about the cost of the clothing that Teresa had bought her, and later on Clare left Raki with a quite a bit of money which prompted him to take up three bars and say that it would be more then enough for a week.

[Echoes]

I image they carry a certain amount of money with them at all times, to pay for certain living expenses (not that they have many) along the way. It would also make sense that the organization would promote a "better safe than sorry" policy, and make sure all Claymores keep some money with them in case of emergencies and such.

[Amirali]

Originally Posted by khryoleoz

I don't quite buy the mercenary parallelism to the Claymore vocation. By definition, a mercenary is distinguished from a soldier in that he works in a military capacity for pay. It could be that as social pariahs, money would be of no value to them. But either way, with the variety of Claymore's we've met and of the few whose motivations we learn about, I have yet to recall one who fits the bill of mercenary.

Over here, I'm relying more on fantasy novels than actual history, so if anyone has more specific information please share it. Just because an organization is mercenary/materiaistic, that doesn't mean the relation between its members and the organization is also so.

I've read novels where a mercenary band has a materialistic/monetary relation with their clients, carrying out jobs for the highest bidder and such. However, the members of the band themselves weren't loyal to their leaders just for a paycheque........rather they were loyal because a) they were grateful to their organization for looking after them or b) out of a sense of comradery or c) out of ideology to some organization philosophy or d) some combination of the above. Take example of berserk........Guts was loyal to Griffin and the mercenary Band of hawk, even though the money was never important to himself. Other Band of Hawk members were different of course which is why this isn't the best analogy, but I hope it helps illustrate my point that you could have a mercenary organization with nonmercenary members .

So my claim:
Nature of Org relation with Villlages = mercenary
Nature of Org leadership relation with Claymores = loyalty , gratitude , ?
Overall nature of Org + claymores = mercenary group.

[Echoes]

I see your point, however...
If Claymores are not allowed to leave the organization, and have to work for them basically until the end of time, I would consider it more of a slave organization.

For instance,

Spoiler for episode 13 or so:

Irene got killed for simply leaving the organization, and it's obvious that the organization enforces strict rules of conduct.

[Panzerklein]

Of couse, Org don't want to deserted Claymore become free protector for human or turn into enemy of Org and to keep the secrets of Org.

My opinion, Org is an Underground organization to make profit and control the world for them own. I think that because, if a town don't pay for Org after a mission, a large of Yomas will come and destroy that town after a few days. It see Yoma have a good organization and a good intelligent like CIA (they know which is the town have no protection in a short time and lauch an attack).

[khryoleoz]

Originally Posted by amirali1985

So my claim:
Nature of Org relation with Villlages = mercenary
Nature of Org leadership relation with Claymores = loyalty , gratitude , ?
Overall nature of Org + claymores = mercenary group.

You just had to pick an example rich in complexities. The Berserk analysis is all true. I'll respond to the points with which I have contention for now.

The first thing we must do is agree to a definition of the word mercenary. The definitions given by the dictionary permit for something as broad as any hireling. Many times arguments fall apart when we fall into the trap of equivocation, where the meaning of the word changes however slightly as we advance propositions. If we are to define the word along the conditions for which the Band of the Hawk would satisfactorily be called such, then the Organization does not meet the conditions.

Here are some contrasts.

1) BotH was a private military outfit, employed by nations for the purpose of waging war against other opposing nations. The Org by its origin and apparent purpose is security sans civic police, or crudely put highly advanced pest extermination.

2) BotH itself had a clearly identified, departmentalized internal organization of its members and definite leaders appointed charge. Guts commanded the Raiders. Caska, Corkus commanded their own separate companies with specific purposes. All are subordinated under the general leadership of Griffith, who by federal representation accepts the mission that the King bestows upon him. With one sole exception, members are recruited voluntarily, and throughout their careers rewarded stature (and presumably financial increase) depending on quality of performance and/or merited favor (the two are separate but may have a causality relationship). This at least potentially can foster loyalty among its members. They bear semblance to a military unit by their organizational structure, and they functioned in a military capacity operating in military affairs. In other words, they were mercenaries until their formal induction to the kingdom as its army.
On the other hand, the Org seems to target candidates whose lives are broken by the pests it's meant to exterminate, and acquired for conditioning. The Org ranks its "warriors" according to demonstrable power or a shift of balance therein, regardless of meritorious acts in missions, which at most earn pardons for any other rules broken. If one is really strong, she is told to awaken in the hope of turning back, then branded devil if she doesn't but is left alone only because they can't own her ass yet. Groups are organized in simple terms, a mix of high and low rankers and the highest ranked leads. This organizing seems often improvised and developed depending on whether it is the AB or the group members that need to be whacked. Ultimately, its warriors are aware of their dismal fates that mark the end of their careers. Consequently, the Org can more easily breed dissenters. Echoes' call seems more accurate, in that it is a slave trade organization. Rubel hints at this in a somewhat incriminating way when he explains to Clare that Raki was captured by such and contrasts what happens between orphaned boys (who are taken to the north) and girls (who are taken east). Makes me wonder where the Org headquarters happens to be located, given that the North, West, and South are territories occupied by those of the Abyss.

My summation [yes, more math], Org^Claymores = sweat shop (specializing in pest control). Otherwise, Teresa whom I adore would be wearing a medal, instead of being judged so inequitabily for vindicating human justice!

[Amirali]

Originally Posted by khryoleoz

You just had to pick an example rich in complexities. The Berserk analysis is all true. I'll respond to the points with which I have contention for now.

The first thing we must do is agree to a definition of the word mercenary. The definitions given by the dictionary permits for something as broad as any hireling. Many times arguments fall apart when we fall into the trap of equivication, where the meaning of the word changes however slightly as we advance propositions. If we are to define the word along the conditions for which the Band of the Hawk would satisfactorily be called such, then the Organization does not meet the conditions.

Echoes' call seems more accurate, in that it is a slave trade organization.

My summation [yes, more math], Org^Claymores = sweat shop (specializing in pest control). Otherwise, Teresa whom I adore would be wearing a medal, instead of being judged so inequitabily for vindicating human justice!

Some of my thoughts below. I beg pardon if I retread ground that Echoes and khryolez have covered:

1)Nice work with the BotH and Claymore contrast; it brings out some key differences between a conventional mercenary org and the organization............the primary one I see being that initial membership in one is voluntary, in the other it isn't as you rightly point out. Also, the hierarchy of the Claymore org is more akin to slave labour.........you have the Men in black controlling the soldiers from afar, instead of say, having leading claymores appointed as captains and generals with eventual promotion offered to highest level of org. (And that would be an interesting show in itself, to see claymores organized in that manner). Calling the org a sweat-shop is charitable, considering that most people join a sweat shop join of their own free will, unlike the Claymores.

2) The fact that the org has strict rules seems reasonable; many militant groups punish deserters with death for example. Same goes for punishing killing humans like Teresa did..........regardless of whether the act was justified or not, she had fair warning in advance of the law, and the org doesn't want to go around picking fights with humans unnecessarily(be they lawful citizens or large bandit groups). A soldier who doesn't obey orders or breaks rules is a liability. Also, the Org is arguably justified in taking out Claymores who have awakened or are even very near-awakening , like Clare and co. If the Org hadn't sent Galatea after Clare , she'd have been awakened by Riful easily.
Every specific action that the Org has taken against its Claymores could be debated as a necessary step that many reasonable, if not idealistic, mercenary organizations might take. Its the general approach and hierarchy of the Org that strikes me as cruel ; the way they slave recruit Claymores as children and give them no authority or reward for their services. (P.S: Its a common practice in some African conflicts to recruit child soldiers, as they're more loyal and more easily brainwashed)


3) I think we're all agreed, barring some minor differences, on the role of the Org viz a viz its clients. They're mercenaries, private security force or whatever other term we may call them..........its clear what they do: provide some limited security services, in terms of undertaking missions, for money.

[Bikerider]

So I saw in the Anime during the Slashers arc: Helen says there are 47 claymores, one for each area on the Contenant. Single. A contenant. Now later on in chapter 50

Spoiler for chapter 50:

Rubel says the orphans from the contenants: plural, are gathered up. Girls sent East and Boys sent North.

That tells me that there are more than one contenant on the Claymore world. AND humans live on more than one. BUT, Youma seem to be on only one. This one where the Claymores are. That is unless, there are no Claymores on the other contenants to control Youma. I'm thinking the Youma are being erradicated one contenant at a time. This contenant being their last refuge. OR.. it could be the other way. They showed up first on this contenant and have yet to spread to the others. I'm thinking the later. This is because the organisation has not been around for long and there have not been many claymores created. I'm thinking if I lived on that world, I'd be more inclined to go to a youma free contenant.

[Claymorefans]

I have a question, is there any money that like bars in the history ?

[dutchman]

Hello all,

After watching ep. 18 2 times (raw and subbed) I suddenly noticed a possible meaning to the colored hilts of the claymores. In the manga it was of course never visible. But in the anime I think some already noticed this.

But in this episode with so many girls gathered it suddenly made sense.

It appears based on the day light scenes (in the dark / cave scenes it not good visible).

That :

Blue = meant for single digits , Miria, Jean en Flora all appear to have blue hilts

Red = Is not for rank but for the offensive type of claymores, you see Clare, Helen having red hilts.

Green = Defensive type of claymores you see Deneve, Veronica having green hilts.

A bit of a problem is Udine however .. she wears both colors...

What do you guys think does it make sense of is it just a coincidence?

I haven't gotten a good look at Ophelia's hilt since i don't posses those episodes. But it should be blue since she was also a single digit.

[TinyRedLeaf]

Ophelia's hilt was blue. She was Number 4, so....that's possibly why.

Spoiler:

As for Undine's different coloured hilts.....well, one of the swords doesn't actually belong to her.

[Panzerklein]

Originally Posted by dutchman

A bit of a problem is Udine however .. she wears both colors...

What do you guys think does it make sense of is it just a coincidence?

Spoiler:

You will know why Undine's second claymore have difference color after they defeat 3 awaken ones and her true form is amazing

[throrine]

i'm not sure if this is the right place for this.

This is on how yoma view us and why they act so human in their since of eating what taste good to them.

The yoma that had been abusing clare when she was a child. What was the reason for that? The towns folk even say that they knew the person abusing her was probably or definatly was a yoma but they were to afraid to do anything about it. Adleast that is what i recall i dont have the 1st episode anymore.

This could be a showing that some yoma have just as many emotions and bad habbit as humans do. Perhpas that yoma wanted to torture her in his down time. Maybe hes just a child abuser? Perhaps yoma view us as a souless race. Just as we view animals without souls ( adleast most ppl do imo). To them we are just something that looks tasty and depending upon the writers decition on perpetuating the species, a ends to a means for continuing the species

Perhaps human emotions are flavoring to yoma? A good reason for why the one who assulted raki in the beginging ( as his brother ) even bothered to tell him before attempting to eat raki. Raki began crying completly filled with devestation over what has happened. Perhaps thats a good taste for yoma?