2010-11-03, 21:07 | Link #18381 | |
Artist
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Yesterday!
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2010-11-03, 21:18 | Link #18382 | |
test
Join Date: Jan 2009
Age: 30
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2010-11-03, 21:56 | Link #18383 |
The True Culprit
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The thing is, you're treating Fantasy Scenes and Meta-scenes as if they're the same thing. They're not. A Fantasy scene is Beatrice claiming that Event X happened and showing Battler a very very complex cartoon that showed her little fairy tale. The Meta-Scenes are a higher level of reality, and, if nothing else, are a higher order of reality than the fantasy scenes. Even if we agree that the entire thing is a story written in a message bottle, we still have a clear difference between "Culprit X killed Jessica and Beatrice said it was Ronove" and "Bernkastel turned Ange into hamburger." The former statement is part of the premise that Beatrice is trying to take credit for mundane murders, and the second statement is a meta-fictional event taking place in the narrative, with no room for debate for Battler to claim it was Cosplaying Loli X.
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2010-11-03, 23:31 | Link #18384 |
Thought Being
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Canada
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I completely agree with Aura here. It's like how Virgillia was killed in the fantasy battle between Beatrice and herself and then easily showed up later to help Battler with his reasoning. It would have been completely different if Beatrice killed her in the higher plane.
The kind of 'murder' or trolling that people are attributing to Bern only matters to other beings on the same level. Beatrice can troll Battler because he can comprehend that Beatrice herself is screwing with him personally. Events that confuse characters on the game board, while could be called trolling by Beatrice, it isn't the right word for it. For example, by the time Erika kills the 6 people in EP6, it no longer really matters as trolling or murder to the people on the gameboard, it only really matters to Battler by this point (as reality is seemingly suspended for the characters on the lower reality from our point of view by that point). On the other hand, people like Erika can be killed by others on the same metaphysical level, as shown when she is completely denied at the end of EP6.
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2010-11-03, 23:57 | Link #18385 |
BUY MY BOOK!!!
Join Date: May 2009
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I think the issue is less who's doing what and what counts as what, and more how characters react to it. Battler has compassion for everyone, from pieces to his meta-world enemies. Even driven to full-on hate mode, he can't seem to help himself from sympathizing eventually. Someone like Magic/Meta-George seems to regard pieces with a very low opinion, but clearly values his own existence in some capacity. And then you have somebody like Bern who appears to have absolutely no consideration for anyone's existence on any level.
Whether an act against a particular character by another is "murder" or not in moral terms, who sees it like that is important.
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2010-11-04, 00:55 | Link #18388 |
Member
Join Date: Jul 2009
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I have one very random thought about the story and also a question. Forgive me in advance if I say something stupid (I tend to do that ^_^).
Maybe we are the culprit(s)? Not the culprit(s) of the games but in another way. We are affecting the games just by reading the "books". Each “Ep” seems to be a book written by different “witch hunters” (I forgot what they called them) and Toya Hachijo. In the Meta world these books seem to (in my mind) translate over as being different fragments of possibility. Right? Maybe? Ok, with that being said. On the back of the 7th Ep case is says something along the lines of “By whose will is this story truly being repeated?”. Since we are reading these different possibilities of the story the story continues. In 7th Ep Bttler puts a book in Beatrice’s coffin and says something along the lines of: This is a story of the truth that I will seal with you in this coffin (cat box). Since no one but you and I can read it no one will be able to defile it. So in a way have we been messing with the story by even looking at it? I know we needed them for clues to find the things we know and have yet to find. But still…? Ok that’s my 1 thought, next is a question that has been bugging me for a while. Who are Bernkastel and Lambdadelta (In this story of Umineko)? We pretty much can convert any magical being who has appeared in the story thus far into someone human. Yet Lambda and Bern remain (unless I missed something)… And since this story is a mystery, I find it hard to believe that they are real witches. Can they reflect us and how we view the story (one represents viewing the story with love and the other represents the story without love)? I have no clue -_-‘ Thanks for listening ^_^ (and please help)~ Last edited by vdaysnowstorm; 2010-11-04 at 02:00. |
2010-11-04, 01:26 | Link #18391 | |
Mystery buff
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Gone Fishin!
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apparently it doesn't break any mystery rules either. Edit: link here
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2010-11-04, 01:49 | Link #18392 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2010
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2010-11-04, 01:54 | Link #18393 |
Artist
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Yesterday!
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It still goes back to my point. If you consider LD and Bern murderers then you have to consider Beato and Eva much worst then them.
However it's just exactly as Renall said, and not just in the game. It's a matter of perspective. Clearly all of you consider what at least Bern did to be murder and clearly I do not. To me they're very similar to us, watching the game, enjoying it, having fun with it. We're not that cruel? No way, how many people alone seem to want Ange to die in arc 8 and be happy about it? Agreed it's not everyone who feels that way but overall I see them as characters who are mostly equivalent to us, readers, then anything. |
2010-11-04, 01:56 | Link #18395 | ||
The True Culprit
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Though seriously, they don't need a human form. Gaap is a phenomenon, the Siestas and Sakutarou are toys, the Inquisitors are Rules...most likely, Bern and Lambda represent different aspects of causality, like chance or fate or something. Or they really are witches, since they come from outside Beatrice's game and thus from outside the mystery. I would say that more likely, we the readers are the "True Gamemasters" or something, since Bernkastel denied being it, and our being the culprits would contradict like every single Mystery rule introduced. Quote:
Though that aside, you still can't compare us to Lambda and Bern in that respect. Wanting a character/person dead isn't the same as actually doing it.
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2010-11-04, 01:59 | Link #18396 |
Artist
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Yesterday!
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Well we could be the "antagonists" at most but not really the culprits.
... And anyway that would make Ryukishi into the mastermind. I really hope I'll never have to read a mystery novel to end up finding that the "real world author" is the "culprit" for having written it in the first place. |
2010-11-04, 02:05 | Link #18397 | |
Member
Join Date: Jul 2009
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... ohhhhh I see ~ That makes sense XD Thank you!!! |
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2010-11-04, 04:36 | Link #18399 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2008
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About the gold, can the siblings even sue for it? I mean, does it even belong to the Ushiromiya family? The story behind the gold has always been that Kinzo borrowed it from Beatrice. So, it doesn't really belong to him. In this regard, you could say none of Kinzo's children have any right over this gold. In fact, not even Kinzo does. This gold wasn't obtained through any legal means, and thus they are not subjected to law (unless you bring it to public knowledge). Thinking about suing anyone about this is basically telling the government "please come take 20 billion yen away from us!". If we were to say this gold belonged to Beatrice Castiglioni, then the only person who can claim that gold would be Yasu/Lion, but I'm sure that wouldn't work on any court either, unless there's any legal documentation that the gold belonged to Beatrice, and I'm sure no such documents exist.
About the Family Headship, that is not subject to legals matters either, I think. Kinzo can appoint whomever he wants as the head. So, if he wants to appoint Yasu/Lion as the head, he can do so, and no one can do anything about it, but to complain amongst themselves.
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2010-11-04, 05:32 | Link #18400 | |
18782+18782=37564
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: InterWebs
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On the very first episode, when Battler first introduced his name. Though it's subtle, I think this scene is borderline breaking the 4th wall to introduce us into the story. Though I'm not sure about the other rules. I'm not saying that I accept this theory. yet anyway. [edit] hell, if you count the text displayed when you hover your mouse to the episode cursor as part of the whole mystery thing, then we're introduced to the game before we even started it.
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