AnimeSuki Forums

Poetic Justice · 2010-05-14, 18:29

I find the whole thing silly to be quite honest. JRPG is just a term used to describe games from japan which have certain rpg elements. It's just a common term and people shouldn't throw a hissy fit over the whole thing particularly the bioware guy who feels the need to 'define' what an rpg is.

Raa · 2010-05-14, 19:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by WanderingKnight

No, really, I would like to hear your opinion -- put your money where your mouth is. I haven't found any worthwhile criticism of the article, and I don't recall many people claiming it was "idiotic commentary".

Read the goddamn article. He explains what an RPG is and why the JRPG label is a misnomer.

Jesus christ people. At least STAND up for what your ideas are instead of dismissing criticism altogether. I'm not asking you to like the guy, or think he's the most awesome thing ever (I think he's quite insane to be honest), but damn.

It doesn't explain anything. Only people who haven't played WRPGs and JRPGs can be fooled with such blatant attention seeking.
This argument is 20 years old mind to know, and arguing about semantics of 20 years ago is beyond silly.

So called character creation in WRPGs isn't any creation, you choose between several preset classes and dozen of avatars/portraits, in Suikoden there are 108 unique characters, no WRPG ever offered that, and they all have personalities unlike your created characters in WRPGs.
So no, he is bloody wrong, FF13 is an RPG, JRPGs are RPGs and WRPGs are RPGs. RPG is just very diverse genre.

WanderingKnight · 2010-05-14, 20:39

Quote:

JRPG is just a term used to describe games from japan which have certain rpg elements.

Except those "elements" (I'm gonna go on a limb and assume you're referring to numbers and levels and stuff, since it's the only thing you can possibly link to any real RPG) are present in almost every game even if they're hidden, no matter the genre, and are actually supposed to be avoided in real RPGs. I stopped playing D&D because it was too number-heavy.

Quote:

It's just a common term and people shouldn't throw a hissy fit over the whole thing particularly the bioware guy who feels the need to 'define' what an rpg is.

lol, man, he's not throwing any hissy fits (even though I agree, he is quite insane), but look beyond that. I posted it on the topic of the difference between Japanese and Western mindset when it comes to a particular type of genre. It just so turns out that the Japanese completely misunderstood what an RPG is, and they went on to "redefine" (for worse) the genre. As Kierkegaard puts it, it's a blatantly simplified strategy game disguised with pretty colors. There's no single element that makes JRPGs unique, except the fact that a great part of your role in the game is to make numbers go up.

Quote:

It doesn't explain anything. Only people who haven't played WRPGs and JRPGs can be fooled with such blatant attention seeking.
This argument is 20 years old mind to know, and arguing about semantics of 20 years ago is beyond silly.

Semantic misunderstandings have begotten entire misinterpretations of a lot of things in the history of mankind -- semantics are important, no matter the time. Though I agree, JRPG is now a word that stands on its own (for worse) -- but it's completely beyond the scope of why I posted the article. I was trying to show you the difference between Western and Japanese game development in terms of a particular genre, and it's really important to understand the origins of that genre before attempting to discuss it.

Quote:

So called character creation in WRPGs isn't any creation, you choose between several preset classes and dozen of avatars/portraits, in Suikoden there are 108 unique characters, no WRPG ever offered that, and they all have personalities unlike your created characters in WRPGs.
So no, he is bloody wrong, FF13 is an RPG, JRPGs are RPGs and WRPGs are RPGs. RPG is just very diverse genre.

Seems you completely misunderstood the article. WRPGs aren't RPGs either. "Character creation" (lol) has absolutely nothing to do with what a real RPG tries to achieve.

Poetic Justice · 2010-05-14, 22:00

Er..D&D has defined what RPG's have been since their inception, The japanese took some elements from that and made their own kind of games. I don't see what's the problem here. Unless were going to be debating the legitimacy of the word use.

It's understandable though, People have debated for years whether zelda is an rpg or an action-adventure game. I just think its quite silly to make an issue out of the intentional attempt to 'troll' the overzealous Jrpg fans.

roriconfan · 2010-05-15, 03:22

Why is it so hard to see the difference?
Wrpgs give a lot of freedom at tempering with the set statistics and abilities a character has during his creation. Good and balanced Wrpgs allow the player to do only specific actions according to his class. If he wants to do other actions, he has to play the game again and chose a different class.

Jrpgs are not like that. They focus more on the personalities and backdrops of a character, which usually has little to do with his statistics.

Thus Wrpgs have more balanced and numerically excused gameplay, while Jrpgs have more interesting characters and stories.

Sheba · 2010-05-15, 04:05

What wrpgs have tried to achieve is to reach the sandbox level that pen & paper rpgs have allowed.

Let's take Deus EX, firstly, in combat, you can go with brute force all guns blazing, or sneaking or hacking sentry guns against the enemies. And that is just the combat. I remember one scene in the bar in Hong Kong arc. When I played the game for the first time, the conversation with the barman was pretty basic. But then I played again and had the curiosity to read every books and articles my character came across for a better understanding of the game world. And what happened? I found out I have unlocked much more conversation options and it deepened the conversation with a fucking barman who had no relevance to the plot. It may not have an influence in the overall plot but it was pretty cool. Of cource, Fallout went the extra mile and made it so that your conversation options ARE determined by your attributes (Charisma and Intelligence helps) and your Speech level.. Back to Deus EX, the fates of your brother and the chopper pilot are actually determined by your actions in game. My first playthrough had both of them dead. However, in my second one, I was well determined to find a way to save them both. I did, and it was cool. It just required careful planning in your action for the first, and curiosity for the second.
Back again to Fallout, you can finish the final boss without fighting! I don't think it had been done before in the computer and console RPG genre. You may think, "Oh wow, big fucking deal.", but you when think about it, it doesn't go against the character of those who made the Vault Dweller a diplomat and smooth-talker.

In the end, Bob and Joe may have small and subtle differences over how they finished Deus EX. And as for Fallout (I am talking about the first Fallout, to avoid all misunderstanding), Joe and Bob may have vast differences between their own Vault Dwellers. More differences than Joe and Bob's Cloud can hope to have.

Let's talk a bit about the pen & paper rpgs:
As for the number crunching in D&D, the system is in part at fault, as well as the players and the gamemasters. I think that's the reason why White Wolf came up with that light game system in Vampire the Masquerade. However, splatbooks had to be written to cater to the numbers crunchers who does play Vampire. To be honest, the hardest game to play and the most minimalist in term of rules have to be Amber. And say what you want, be all defensive for all I care, but you will never seize what the article guy was trying to say and getting at UNLESS you have actually played pen & paper RPGs, and different games (Dungeons & dragons, Vampire the Masquerade, Star Wars, Shadowrun, Call of Cthuluh, Legend of the Five Rings, and those are the most played in the hobby), months after months and years after years, with different gamemasters.

Benoit · 2010-05-15, 08:37

The term "RPG" when applied to video games, as others have said, is now devoid of meaning, and that's why the article is silly. It's looking at the term, analyzing it, and then ranting about why the games we term "RPG" aren't RPGs. That's the gist of it.

We all know they're not digital D&D campaigns.

roriconfan · 2010-05-15, 17:17

A broad term: If the characters have levels, it's rpg.
Because levels dictate a sense of progress and progress needs a sort of character to evolve or change.

Sheba · 2010-05-15, 21:34

Call of Cthuluh, Shadowrun and Kult don't have levels. And are still RPGs.

Kyero Fox · 2010-05-15, 21:34

if theres a leveling system and invitory system its a RPG?

~~Arbitres~~ · 2010-05-15, 21:42

This is becoming ridiculous.

An RPG isn't determined by that kind of thing, it isn't restricted to that only. An rpg can lack an inventory system AND a leveling system, and still be able to come off as a RPG. If that is what it's called by the creator's, then you are

1) Arguing with the game designers, losing war
2) Trying to make a moot point by trying to prove them wrong.

An rpg can be old fashioned or an entirely new game. The elements are important, but the setting is too. Or am I entirely off base?

Kyero Fox · 2010-05-15, 22:16

and when did it become about RPGs?

asaqe · 2010-05-27, 15:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kyero Fox

i wonna see japan try to beat the Fallout Series at its own game (post-apoctolptyic) world

Well there was SMT: Digital Devil Saga. But the major difference between WRPGs and JRPGs is that WRPGs are pretty pessemistic and gritty in terms of their Magnum Opus games. The best in the series are also the darkest, not to rag on JRPGs being unable to make a dark RPG as Nocturne and anything by Cavia is quite along the veins of WRPGs bleak storylines

Kyero Fox · 2010-05-27, 17:47

WRPGs bleak? atleast our RPG's dont always consist of princesses

HayashiTakara · 2010-05-27, 21:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kyero Fox

WRPGs bleak? atleast our RPG's dont always consist of princesses

yeah just ugly girls

asaqe · 2010-05-27, 22:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kyero Fox

WRPGs bleak? atleast our RPG's dont always consist of princesses

It is much bleaker then most JRPGs, Dragon Age is basically Bioware's response to Planescape Torment with its extremely dark storyline, KOTOR2 was generally bleak in nature with most of the storyline taking place in rather crapsack locations, Fallout is self explanatory. And that's not mentioning Warhammer series (Both of them)

Kyero Fox · 2010-05-27, 22:51

yep, dats us americans. we bad at storytellin yo.
(btw, that was sarcasm

)

asaqe · 2010-05-28, 00:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kyero Fox

yep, dats us americans. we bad at storytellin yo.
(btw, that was sarcasm

)

Nah, I like it, but I just feel that Western RPGs could lay off the grimdark a bit.

Kyero Fox · 2010-05-28, 00:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by asaqe

Nah, I like it, but I just feel that Western RPGs could lay off the grimdark a bit.

i think their kinda bored with the Pretty princess and the pretty boy hero saves the world.

asaqe · 2010-05-28, 00:39

I don't think WRPGs even have a princess, the female companion you have is always this Amazoness Chick who may or may not be designed after a model

2010-05-15, 04:05	Link #126
Sheba RUN, YOU FOOLS! Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Formerly Iwakawa base and Chaldea. Now Teyvat, the Astral Express & the Outpost Age: 44	What wrpgs have tried to achieve is to reach the sandbox level that pen & paper rpgs have allowed. Let's take Deus EX, firstly, in combat, you can go with brute force all guns blazing, or sneaking or hacking sentry guns against the enemies. And that is just the combat. I remember one scene in the bar in Hong Kong arc. When I played the game for the first time, the conversation with the barman was pretty basic. But then I played again and had the curiosity to read every books and articles my character came across for a better understanding of the game world. And what happened? I found out I have unlocked much more conversation options and it deepened the conversation with a fucking barman who had no relevance to the plot. It may not have an influence in the overall plot but it was pretty cool. Of cource, Fallout went the extra mile and made it so that your conversation options ARE determined by your attributes (Charisma and Intelligence helps) and your Speech level.. Back to Deus EX, the fates of your brother and the chopper pilot are actually determined by your actions in game. My first playthrough had both of them dead. However, in my second one, I was well determined to find a way to save them both. I did, and it was cool. It just required careful planning in your action for the first, and curiosity for the second. Back again to Fallout, you can finish the final boss without fighting! I don't think it had been done before in the computer and console RPG genre. You may think, "Oh wow, big fucking deal.", but you when think about it, it doesn't go against the character of those who made the Vault Dweller a diplomat and smooth-talker. In the end, Bob and Joe may have small and subtle differences over how they finished Deus EX. And as for Fallout (I am talking about the first Fallout, to avoid all misunderstanding), Joe and Bob may have vast differences between their own Vault Dwellers. More differences than Joe and Bob's Cloud can hope to have. Let's talk a bit about the pen & paper rpgs: As for the number crunching in D&D, the system is in part at fault, as well as the players and the gamemasters. I think that's the reason why White Wolf came up with that light game system in Vampire the Masquerade. However, splatbooks had to be written to cater to the numbers crunchers who does play Vampire. To be honest, the hardest game to play and the most minimalist in term of rules have to be Amber. And say what you want, be all defensive for all I care, but you will never seize what the article guy was trying to say and getting at UNLESS you have actually played pen & paper RPGs, and different games (Dungeons & dragons, Vampire the Masquerade, Star Wars, Shadowrun, Call of Cthuluh, Legend of the Five Rings, and those are the most played in the hobby), months after months and years after years, with different gamemasters. Last edited by Sheba; 2010-05-15 at 05:23. Reason: More about Fallout

2010-05-15, 08:37	Link #127
Benoit Bishoujo Game Enthusiast Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Belgium Age: 38	The term "RPG" when applied to video games, as others have said, is now devoid of meaning, and that's why the article is silly. It's looking at the term, analyzing it, and then ranting about why the games we term "RPG" aren't RPGs. That's the gist of it. We all know they're not digital D&D campaigns. __________________ SeaMonkey - surfing the net has never been so suite

2010-05-15, 21:34	Link #130
Kyero Fox Tastes Cloudy Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Snake Way Age: 35	if theres a leveling system and invitory system its a RPG? __________________

2010-05-15, 22:16	Link #132
Kyero Fox Tastes Cloudy Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Snake Way Age: 35	and when did it become about RPGs? __________________

2010-05-27, 17:47	Link #134
Kyero Fox Tastes Cloudy Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Snake Way Age: 35	WRPGs bleak? atleast our RPG's dont always consist of princesses __________________

2010-05-14, 18:29	Link #121
Poetic Justice 100Shots100Hits LuluLaLu Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Inside your heart... Age: 35	I find the whole thing silly to be quite honest. JRPG is just a term used to describe games from japan which have certain rpg elements. It's just a common term and people shouldn't throw a hissy fit over the whole thing particularly the bioware guy who feels the need to 'define' what an rpg is.

2010-05-14, 22:00	Link #124
Poetic Justice 100Shots100Hits LuluLaLu Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Inside your heart... Age: 35	Er..D&D has defined what RPG's have been since their inception, The japanese took some elements from that and made their own kind of games. I don't see what's the problem here. Unless were going to be debating the legitimacy of the word use. It's understandable though, People have debated for years whether zelda is an rpg or an action-adventure game. I just think its quite silly to make an issue out of the intentional attempt to 'troll' the overzealous Jrpg fans.

2010-05-15, 03:22	Link #125
roriconfan Banned Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Thessaloniki - Greece	Why is it so hard to see the difference? Wrpgs give a lot of freedom at tempering with the set statistics and abilities a character has during his creation. Good and balanced Wrpgs allow the player to do only specific actions according to his class. If he wants to do other actions, he has to play the game again and chose a different class. Jrpgs are not like that. They focus more on the personalities and backdrops of a character, which usually has little to do with his statistics. Thus Wrpgs have more balanced and numerically excused gameplay, while Jrpgs have more interesting characters and stories.

2010-05-15, 17:17	Link #128
roriconfan Banned Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Thessaloniki - Greece	A broad term: If the characters have levels, it's rpg. Because levels dictate a sense of progress and progress needs a sort of character to evolve or change.

2010-05-15, 21:34	Link #129
Sheba RUN, YOU FOOLS! Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Formerly Iwakawa base and Chaldea. Now Teyvat, the Astral Express & the Outpost Age: 44	Call of Cthuluh, Shadowrun and Kult don't have levels. And are still RPGs.

2010-05-15, 21:42	Link #131
~~Arbitres~~ Disabled By Request Join Date: Jan 2010	This is becoming ridiculous. An RPG isn't determined by that kind of thing, it isn't restricted to that only. An rpg can lack an inventory system AND a leveling system, and still be able to come off as a RPG. If that is what it's called by the creator's, then you are 1) Arguing with the game designers, losing war 2) Trying to make a moot point by trying to prove them wrong. An rpg can be old fashioned or an entirely new game. The elements are important, but the setting is too. Or am I entirely off base?

2010-05-27, 22:51	Link #137
Kyero Fox Tastes Cloudy Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Snake Way Age: 35	yep, dats us americans. we bad at storytellin yo. (btw, that was sarcasm ) __________________ Last edited by Kyero Fox; 2010-05-27 at 23:21.

2010-05-28, 00:39	Link #140
asaqe Augumented Paranoia Join Date: Nov 2003	I don't think WRPGs even have a princess, the female companion you have is always this Amazoness Chick who may or may not be designed after a model __________________ Old McDonald had a farm...Eyey Eyey O...And on his farm he had a Khzithak...Eyey Eyey O...With a ARHHFAHHAAAAAAAAARRRGIIIAAA HELP AAAUUU HELP! IT'S GNAWING OFF MY...