Ichimaru - hate or ... like?

[Langus]

^^ Holy crap batman! That pic is phenomenal!

[AceD]

whats not to like about Gin? hes one of the cooler bad guys for sure

[felix]

Gin is an awesome character. I love his style.
I don't mind the anime making him out as this scarecrow figure, to me Gin is just born into attitude.

Damn stupid poll, why is it comepletly backwards to the title.
I was thinking of the question asked if I hated him (like the title suggests) lol.

[BleachOD]

I like him as a murdering sadist. Why do people insist on trying to redeem him?

[Langus]

Because he deserves redemption

(Almost as much as Ichigo deserves to get laid. IMO anyway...)

[BleachOD]

No he deserves to stay bad! He's good at being bad (If there is such a thing) I think Ulq and Grim are redeemable. Gin isn't and I like him that way. You saw the past!!! There is no changing him...

[Langus]

Originally Posted by BleachOD

No he deserves to stay bad! He's good at being bad (If there is such a thing) I think Ulq and Grim are redeemable. Gin isn't and I like him that way. You saw the past!!! There is no changing him...

Ulq redeemable? Heck no! Out of all the characters he is the LEAST redeemable because he's used cold hard logic to justify all of his actions. He has no heart, no emotions, therefore he has nothing to redeem!

Gin on the other hand - definitely redeemable as a character. I think once all is revealed it will be shown that he actually isn't a baddie, so to speak.

And yes, I did see the past.

Spoiler for Flashback series:

Didn't you notice his reactions to his actions and Aizen's? They were childlike in their simplicity. He didn't see their violent actions as inherently wrong, particularly when he was very young. To him it was as though it was very much a game, one that Aizen created for him. Aizen found him as a child and it is very easy to manipulate children into what you want them to do or how you want them to see the world. Aizen has probably been manipulating Gin since the day he reached SS society.

Spoiler for Space:

Just look at how he reacts - he's grinning ear to ear like he just won a competition or a prize. He doesn't understand what he's done in the least - to him it was a game, a test of strengths. It's one thing to suggest that adult Gin is a sadistic murderer, but what child, especially that young, is one without being manipulated somehow? It's a bit of a stretch in logic.

Spoiler for Space:

Here as well, he has no understanding of how serious their situation is. He doesn't understand that there will be serious ramifications if they are caught and consequences for their actions. To him it's all a game.

But to suggest that Aizen's manipulation is purely what drives Gin's actions is to give the guy too much credit. He is a genius after all. Out of all the people with him I think Gin is the most dangerous to Aizen's goals. His loyalty is first and foremost to himself and what is important to him (Matsumoto). We still don't know why he stays with Aizen but I'm sure that will be revealed eventually. I would even go so far as to venture that he has ZERO loyalty to Aizen or his cause.

Just look at the scene on Sougoku Hill when SS caught them before they left. Gin didn't stop Ichigo from attacking/interfering and brushed it off with some easy comment about how he didn't see him coming (my ass he didn't).

Spoiler for Scene - Spoiler for space:

Later when they were caught and he was caught by Matsumoto he simply throws up his hands and goes "oops, we're caught." Judging by Aizen's reaction he didn't expect Gin to allow himself to get caught.

Spoiler for Spoiler for Space:

Besides that, if he's as sadistic and heartless as you say why would he bother apologizing to her at all? Wouldn't he be relishing in her pain? Wouldn't he be excited about leaving? Instead he's saying that he wishes she could've held him longer and apologizes for everything he's done to her. Sounds like a redeemable character to me.

Spoiler for Space:

Whew, and I'm done.

[Mitsuomi1971]

Well Grim is not reedeemable cause he is dead...and I think Ulq will be joining him soon...as far as Gin...as Yamamoto would say...He is a traitor and must be executed...now on with the show.

[Langus]

I'm willing to bet hard currency Grim isn't dead (yet).

Re Gin: I never denied he was a traitor to SS. By SS's laws he will have to be executed. But who says SS is the correct authority anyway? Hasn't Kubo shown us over and over again throughout the series how antiquarian and arbitrary their laws are? Just look at the second movie - great example right there. SS may be the governing authority but that doesn't necessarily mean they are the good guys.

[Mitsuomi1971]

So are you theorizing that Aizen and Gin are the real good guys?

We can all make a case for every criminal ever to exist...oh he had a bad childhood, he/she was abused,he/she didn't get enough hugs. Everyone has a story. Everyone has a choice...I choose to side with Soul Society and the rules. Gin is evil.

And if you are willing to bet hard currency about Grim not being dead, then you must know something perhaps from the manga? Cause according to the anime he got pwnd and killed. Though I did theorize a while back that Grim might have survived because of the so called resurrection form he was fighting in...however I had people quickly dismiss my theory and say I was wrong...

[Langus]

I'm not going to enlist spoilers or anything like that, just trust me when I say he isn't dead.

It's very much like comic book law - the bad guy isn't actually dead until you see his body in the ground.

[Mitsuomi1971]

Interesting...a spoiler without an actual spoiler

[Zu Ra]

I always pictured Gin as a homicidal sadistic trickster the chances for redemption are pretty slim .

Spoiler for MANGA:

Gin killed the former third seat of Shinji's 5th division for lulz

[Langus]

Originally Posted by Geta Boshi

I always pictured Gin as a homicidal sadistic trickster the chances for redemption are pretty slim .

Spoiler for MANGA:

Gin killed the former third seat of Shinji's 5th division for lulz

Meh - I already covered that. Read my post above. Children are easily manipulated.

[Zu Ra]

Spoiler for MANGA:

For manipulation theory to be true . Aizen has to know Gin before he murdered 3rd seat . From the convo between Gin & Aizen they are meeting for the very first time .

Aizen : " Imprresive ,Your even better than RUMORS suggests "



I really dont see how Aizen could have manipulated at that point of time .

[Langus]

Originally Posted by Geta Boshi

Spoiler for MANGA:

For manipulation theory to be true . Aizen has to know Gin before he murdered 3rd seat . From the convo between Gin & Aizen they are meeting for the very first time .

Aizen : " Imprresive ,Your even better than RUMORS suggests "



I really dont see how Aizen could have manipulated at that point of time .

Spoiler for Manga Spoilers:

I fail to see how Aizen's words imply that that is their first meeting. You could assume that of course, but asking to hear his name AGAIN seems to suggest that they've had at least one prior meeting. Saying that he was better than the rumours implied only indicates that it is Aizen's first time seeing Gin's power in person.

But let's say, for the sake of argument, that this IS the first time Aizen has met Gin. I think it highly likely, based on his comments and Gin's responses, that Aizen set up the match between Gin and the 3rd div guy to test the kid genius's abilities for himself.

In order to do this he probably structured it as a game since children, most of them, like games as the win/lose scenario is easy for them to understand. An "I've heard your powers are quite impressive. Why don't you prove just how strong you are by attacking that guy over there" type of deal. As a youngster Gin obviously went along with it. Aizen's question about the abilities of the 3rd division guy makes this scenario even more likely. Gin's response is 100% bragging - that guy was nothing special etc. Why else would he talk like that unless the fight between them had been set up as a test of abilities - pitting one against the other to determine who was strongest?

Over and over again young Gin demonstrates a complete absence of understanding that his actions are wrong and immoral. All of his responses seem to indicate that for him, going along with Aizen is like being part of a game. He has no appreciation for the consequences of his actions or any real understanding that there are some.

Taking someone on as a protege at that young of an age, Aizen undoubtedly nurtured him to be exactly what he wanted him to be. Though it remains to be seen whether he will be redeemed, I think he is most definitely redeemable. Kubo might just throw us for a loop and make SS into the bad guys.

[BleachOD]

Originally Posted by Geta Boshi

I always pictured Gin as a homicidal sadistic trickster the chances for redemption are pretty slim .

Spoiler for MANGA:

Gin killed the former third seat of Shinji's 5th division for lulz

Damn the cookie Nazi says no!



He's not a redeemable character. I don't see why anyone would want him to be

He's good at being bad. He is what he is. A " homicidal sadistic trickster "

I think people are projecting their wants onto him and turning them into characteristics he doesn't posses.

@Langus..his lack of understanding makes him a SOCIOPATH as well as a " homicidal sadistic trickster " Your post scared the hell out me! Gin scares me. To me it just proves. He's rotten to the core and beyond redemption. Sociopaths reason the same way he did in your post above.

[Langus]

*sigh* Nevermind. Gin is what he is. I look forward to the day when Kubo redeems him, even if it's only partially.

[BleachOD]

Originally Posted by Langus

*sigh* Nevermind. Gin is what he is. I look forward to the day when Kubo redeems him, even if it's only partially.

Oh why?! I wanted to discuss it. Don't do the *wanders off* thing just yet...

[Langus]

Originally Posted by BleachOD

Oh why?! I wanted to discuss it. Don't do the *wanders off* thing just yet...

Hahaha sorry I was having a very apathetic kind of day. Alrighty if you want to discuss Gin I'm all for it.

Spoiler for Just one big fucking spoiler really:

While I do agree that an ADULT having no mens rea makes them somewhat of a sociopath, particularly if they take to killing people, in legal terms (at least in the West) they are free from criminal liability. Children do not have a concept of mens rea until they reach a certain age and even then it has to be taught to them. Think of your own little ones - how many times have you told them "no that's bad" "no this is wrong" probably countless times. Children need to be taught right from wrong but when you grow up in a desolate place with no relatives or familial structure of any kind beyond another child your own age what structures are in place to teach you that necessary difference between right and wrong? None.

I'm willing to bet that the first time Gin was exposed to such a social structure was when he reached Soul Society and it is fairly obvious from the manga, at least as far as I have read, that Aizen latched on to him very early on. If that's the case, then you had Aizen teaching/dictating what was right and wrong to him from a very young age. Just think about the implications of that for a second...

God, that even gives me the creeps.

However, all of this only removes child Gin of criminal culpability for his actions. What about adult Gin? Well that's a little easier. As an adult he understands the difference between right and wrong and that there are consequences for his actions. Case in point - has the anime or manga shown him specifically killing anyone (with the exception of the flashback arc when he was a kid)? No, it hasn't.

Matsumoto and Hitsugaya assumed Gin had killed Central 46, mainly because Hitsugaya has it out for Gin re: Momo. It was never confirmed that he did it and for all we know Aizen, Kira or Tousen killed them all.

Another point of fact - if he's as sadistic and homicidal as you say, why did he bother to spare Ichigo - not once, but twice? At their first meeting at the gates of seireitei he could've easily killed him, yet he forced him back through the gate instead. He could've easily killed Jaidinbo (sp?) but only cut his arm instead. On Sougyoku Hill too before their departure he had ample opportunity to step in and kill Ichigo to defend Aizen but he didn't lift a finger to do so.

The only character Gin has shown any outright hostility towards is Momo and even her he didn't end up killing (I'm not sure why this is yet - perhaps a rivalry for Aizen's affections? Having known him from such a young age he could look up to Aizen as a sort of mentor figure so the amount of time/affection he dedicated to Momo could have been an aggrivator if he was jealous of her....but sorry, I digress)

Point is, Gin as an adult has consistently shown a conscious awareness of right and wrong and chosen his path accordingly (Gin: "You know I don't like sad stories."). There were many opportunities for him to kill members of our good guy team and he made the conscious choice not to. Over and over again he has shown that he cares for the wellbeing of those close to him. Matsumoto, Kira (by letting him out of jail, by saying that he's glad he's doing okay without him, etc.). Gin seems to have loyalty to those who put their faith/trust in him. That makes him human, not sociopathic.

For me he's one of the most interesting characters I've ever come across, and that's not limited to the Bleach series alone. The only other one who holds remotely this much interest for me is Kakashi from Naruto but he's a bad ass ninja no one can hold a match to anyway.

So I think that gives you enough to go on right? Look forward to your response