2004-10-09, 12:37 | Link #1 | |||
Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: China
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Zipang and politics
... I feel like the (sort of) official thread opener of series, for some reason. Is there an official title? What does the health plan cover? Any kind of a retirement package available?
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Something people tend not to do well, I will admit.
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2004-10-09, 12:48 | Link #2 | |
/Ultimate Magic Attack!!!
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Time Warp/Future
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PS: About that "biased" thing, I was replying to the previous poster's saying that I'm "overly concerned that this particular manga is so unbiased and inflammatory" (?), but I never said nor think it's unbiased |
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2004-10-09, 21:02 | Link #3 |
Banned
Join Date: Oct 2004
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"Oh, and I thought people in an anime forum should do better than some "THIS IS A CARTOON. If you take a CARTOON this seriously on this level, then something is wrong with you" kind of argument. Anime is no less of a form of media/art/entertainment than movies, novels, tv-drama, etc. etc. I hope you mean "This is a work of fiction like a movie, novel, tv-drama, etc. etc.", not "THIS IS A CARTOON". You should take an anime as seriously as you take a movie, novel, tv-drama, etc. etc. Else I don't think you are worth debating with."
Listen to what you just said. No less entertainment than a MOVIE, NOVEL, TV DRAMA, ETC.ETC. ENTERTAINMENT. ITS ALL ENTERTAINMENT. "You should take an anime as seriously as you take a movie, novel, tv-drama, etc. etc. Else I don't think you are worth debating with."" Do YOU take movies, tv dramas as seriously as you do zipang? When you watch a violent movie, do you cringe about what effect this might have on society? When you watch a tv drama, do you worry about the rampant sex and greed and the message it sends to society? Something tells me you don't. So that would make you a hypocrite. If you indeed DO apply the same seriousness to any medium of entertainment as you advocate in your above statement, then man, i feel for you. It must suck to watch or read anything and then overanalyze the hell out of it. I don't take ANY of this stuff seriously, because when you boil it all down, its all ENTERTAINMENT. Its something to keep you busy, that hopefully you will enjoy. Sitting around obsessing over the effect it has on the world around you is just sad, IMO. There's a lot more worrisome things to be concerned about. |
2004-10-09, 21:52 | Link #4 |
Daijoubu!
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Malaysia
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Zipang may play up the nationlism/militarism part but I intend to watch it to give them a fair chance of airing their views. It is going to be a tough sell outside of Japan considering it is going to go into World War 2 and drag out some matters that people outside Japan may not take kindly to. I want to see/hear/read/discuss about the viewpoints raised in this series for a lively but positive discussion (am I too optismitic and naive in asking way too much here? ) instead of it descending into an ugly mess of a shoutfest.
Personally, I have known about the manga for some time but haven't gotten round to buying the manga yet and would not want to jump to conclusions. The anime is going to be my main chance to hear them out. Problem is my fairly poor command of Japanese is going to make it tough time trying catch as much as I can of the dialogue in there. I may have to resort to getting the manga and using my well-worn Japanese reference books. |
2004-10-09, 22:03 | Link #5 |
Gomen asobase desuwa!
Join Date: Nov 2003
Age: 43
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( ・∀・ ) ニヤニヤ
Another way of euphemizing Nationalism/Militarism is Patriotism. But seriously, war makes shits happen. Is it then that for future generations to disdain their own country for all the crap that happened two generations ago? What I am saying is: everyone loves their own country one way or the other. How they express it is up to the individual itself - and it is a matter of opinion that is judgmental as any other opinion. Besides, "Zipang" is what I call the "Japanese anime version of the Hollywood film 'Final Countdown' - except this time it is the Maritime SDF that goes back in time to WWII." |
2004-10-09, 22:08 | Link #6 | |
Daijoubu!
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Malaysia
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While it's good to get some perspective that anime is entertainment, we should not just paint with such broad strokes to paint over some series that will come up with serious points for discussion. Please do remember animation is another media format to tell a story or get viewpoints aired. |
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2004-10-09, 22:16 | Link #7 |
Uber Coffee for da win!
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Middle of insanity
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I so far have liked how they have portrayed this anime. Given that I'm a huge WW2 buff and have learned a lot about the war from a multitude of sides, I'd be interested in seeing how they portray this anime from the "Japanese" point of view. I think it should be rather facinating. So far I haven't been disappointed with any of the viewpoints of any other country involved in WW2 as each saw the world through a different set of circumstances, beliefs, and events, so each is unique and tells the story of the greatest war ever one piece at a time.
Hence this is just another piece to that gigantic puzzle and for me should be thurougly enjoyable. Politicaly driven or biased or if it isn't, I'm simply going to watch it with an open mind and focus on the historical aspects, not the political. |
2004-10-09, 22:57 | Link #8 | |
/Ultimate Magic Attack!!!
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Time Warp/Future
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I don't like Zipang, just like I don't like some movies/books/whatever advertising for racism, Nazi, Japanese militarists, such things, especially those involve historical events and figure and try to "revise" them in a one-sided, super biased view, and I'll tell anyone to stay away from them. Simple as that. Also not all books/movies/art/anime/etc. are just entertainment, a lot of them are much more deeper than just entertainment. They can contain philosophy, politics, history, etc. things that try to make you think instead of just entertainment. If you read all novels/manga, watch all movies/anime, etc. like they are ALL ENTERTAINMENT, without any thinking involved, that's just ridiculous to say the least. There are definitely NOT ALL ENTERTAINMENT. There are things that written/drawn/made that is to make you think the issues and ideas it conveys. For examples like Citizen Kane, Platoon, Schindler's List, Sophie's World, they are movies/novels that's made for you to think about the issues instead of just having fun. The "they are ALL ENTERTAINMENT" argument is just immature and ridiculous. There are racist propaganda books that have zero entertainment value except trying to spread racism. Last edited by dreamless; 2004-10-10 at 00:15. |
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2004-10-09, 23:04 | Link #9 |
Illegal Additives
Join Date: Jun 2004
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Somehow I am minded of all the 9/11 banner waving that was forced into near every Hollywood production around 2002 when looking at this thread. I worked as a freelance subber [translation check for English to Malay] during this period and it was basically everywhere. So while I sympathise with the victims, having to translate American patriotism day after day for 6 months is not something I'd repeat again. The thing is a terrible tragedy had occured, but I feel admittedly removed from it because I'm not a US citizen. A bloke living half a world away and one living 50-60 years after the fact isn't going to have the same sort of anger or thoughts that apply for that time.
My point for this is, what is the value of this thing you are looking at and does it make sense to you? For the above, I can honestly say the value of what I did is personally not as great as another bloke living closer to the source. And to be critical of what I was watching, I must also admit to feeling that this cheapens the tragedy when it is indiscriminately tacked on. The same principle applies for Zipang, be it a revisionist take on WW2 history or unlikely fiction or just 1 guy saying they could have done better [Micheal Moore anyone?]- it doesn't change the real world fact that they lost big and still have trouble explaining to ppl why some of their cities are dangerously radioactive. I'll still watch this one, because by the end ot the day the only person who can ever decide if this show makes sense is me alone. That way if it really sucks and a fuse in my head gets blown from the preaching there's only one fool to blame |
2004-10-09, 23:48 | Link #10 | |
/Ultimate Magic Attack!!!
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Time Warp/Future
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If one does not learn from history, then one is doomed to repeat it. And that surely concerns me, if Japan is to repeat history, that means my family, my friends and I will be in great danger. I can enjoy reading the "Final Countdown part" of Zipang okay, but later it turns into a much much more mess than Final Countdown. the main part of Zipang is not about an SDF ship going back in time, it's about how a "patriotic" WW2 Japanese Imperial intelligence officer trying to use it to build a happy, peaceful, strong Japan without a sameful defeat in the past called Zipang, by manipulating historical events and stealing land and resources from other countries. Last edited by dreamless; 2004-10-10 at 00:16. |
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2004-10-10, 00:20 | Link #11 | |
Daijoubu!
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Malaysia
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May I presume you are a fellow resident of Malaysia considering your disclosure of translating English to Malay? |
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2004-10-10, 00:49 | Link #12 | |||
Daijoubu!
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Malaysia
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If I am to disagree with the viewpoints raised in there, it should be after careful consideration and not significantly coloured/influenced by other people's personal leanings and/or prejudices. Quote:
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2004-10-10, 01:37 | Link #13 |
/Ultimate Magic Attack!!!
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Time Warp/Future
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well, I'm also quite concerned about how China sees herself and the Chinese nationalism despite I'm an ethnical Chinese, I've read some chinese fan-fic/doujin novels across the net that sounds even much more awful than Zipang, but anyway this is about Zipang and politics, not chinese fan-fic novels and politics, I can write an entire essay on that matter. Also those are fan-fic novels not officially accepted nor published, so I'm a bit more concerned about the current japanese government's militarism/nationalism bent.
Yup, it's an alternate reality where in WW2 after the Japanese have invaded other countries and massacred countless Koreans, Chinese, Southeast Asians, they stopped and signed a "generous" peace treaty with the US and the Asian countries, hoarding the resources they have stolen to build an "ideal Japan", and it basically says there's nothing wrong with that. It's like a German writer writes a novel about in WW2 after the Germans invaded other countries and massacred countless Jews, and then stopped before Russia and signed a "generous" peace treaty with everyone and build an "ideal Third Reich", and basically says there's nothing wrong with that. Actually I'm pretty sure there are some German writers who have written those kind of things, but then they would be treated as Neo Nazi supporter and not accepted by the public. Of course all I have posted are my own opinions and takes on the manga, I got fed up with this piece of japanese militarist/nationalist garbage as much as I got fed up with all those chinese militarist/nationalist garbage I've come across online. So I won't recommend anyone to read them. Instead, read Murakami Motoka's Dragon -RON-, that's a very good historic/alternate-reality WW2 Asia setting manga and it shows that there are non-nationalist non-militarist japanese who can produce a manga with a balanced view and great story (no, it does not portray the Japanese back in WW2 as complete RATS as in some chinese nationalist novels or whatever else, a piece of nationalism garbage is a piece of nationalism garbage, despite where it comes from) Now that's a great manga instead of some japanese nationalism/militarism garbage. |
2004-10-10, 01:51 | Link #14 |
Banned
Join Date: Oct 2004
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Immature, blah blah blah. Great, im immature. Perhaps if i joined your one-man-cursade to save the world from itself, you'll put me on you list of "cool people"?
You keep comparing Zipang to racism, spend paragraphs decrying how we should all reject it because it paints japan in anything but the most dark and negative of lights......then you say you don't think the japanese should badmouth themselves or build monuments to how terrible they were? THATS BASICALLY WHAT YOU JUST TYPED PAGE AFTER PAGE SUGGESTING! "Well, no one tries to force anyone to disdain ther own country. No one tells the Germans that they have to keep saying how terrible their country was in the WW2 (but they build war museums and open concentration camps to show how terrible their country was in WW2 anyway). Now I'm not saying that Japanese people must build war museums and expose their country's atrocities in WW2 to the world in public, but when certain Japanese try to write things to paint the atrocities their country committed back then with a good color and try to revise the historical events and figures with a militarist/nationalist view, that surely becomes a problem." Where in Zipang do they put positive spin on any atrocities? Did they justify Nanking? Did they justify Baatan? Or are you just upset they dont flog themselves over the fact they started a war in the pacific. Ding ding ding. "...despite I'm an ethnical Chinese" - ah, i was wondering about this. That explains a lot. Look, my folks were run over by the japanese war machine as well, but you don't see me sitting around waiting on an apology. This discussion is over. Im too "immature and ridiculous" because apparently my feeble mind is too weak to realize that this piece of entertainment is really an effort to brainwash japanese youth, turn them into killing machines, and prepare them for another overrun-of-southeast asia. "Casting demons out of the bushes...", must be a hard way to lead a life. I pray for the day that I run into ONE anime fan that doesn't try to find some deep meaning-of-life message in EVERY ANIME THEY WATCH. |
2004-10-10, 02:53 | Link #15 | |||
/Ultimate Magic Attack!!!
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Time Warp/Future
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First off, I never said you are immature or anything. I mean statements like "all movies/novels/animes/manga/tv-drama/etc. etc. are ALL ENTERTAINMENT" are immature and ridiculous, and actually downright incorrect. It has nothing about whether you are immature or not. I'm refering strictly to that kind of statements.
Zipang is NOT "every anime", I don't try to find any deep meaning in some fan-service series or harem shows or whatever, I won't try to find deep meaning in a LOT of animes I watch. But seriously, have you read Zipang? How can you be so sure that Zipang is NOT one of those animes that has a deep meaning aside from pure entertainment? I have read the manga and I think it's a nationalism garbage. What makes you think Zipang should NOT be compared to racism, sexism, nationalism, militarism? Quote:
Another question, have you read Dragon -RON-? I love that manga, and no it's not badmouthing the Japanese, heck the main protagonist is a japanese who is supposedly the saviour of Asia in WW2. But it's not some militarism/nationalism garbage like saying it's alright for Japan to invade other countries for its own good. It seems you always have this little fiction/imagination that I'm on a crusade or whatever to paint the Japanese totally black, while I clearly showed that I love another manga where the Japanese are not painted even remotely black. Can't you understand there are whole spectrum of colors between black and white? Quote:
That's exactly why I have no problem about the early part of Zipang, and the early part of Zipang does not paint the Japanese in the most dark and negative of lights, not even remotely. So stop your imagination, I have NO problem about the Japanese not painting themselves in the most dark and negative lights. I have problem when they try to justify their invasion of other countries and stealing of land and resources by saying it's in order to build a strong and better Japan. Quote:
Seriously, I think you have absolutely no idea what the Zipang manga is really like and just pop random things out of your imagination. You showed no proof of why you think Zipang is better than some racist movies or novels, you showed no proof that you've even ever read Zipang. And then you just claim it's ALL ENTERTAINMENT. If you have no idea of what Zipang is like, then you shouldn't make those claims. Where did you see me saying that I try to find some deep meaning-of-life message in EVERY ANIME I WATCH? Or does that come from your imagination? When does Zipang = EVERY ANIME? Last edited by dreamless; 2004-10-10 at 03:48. |
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2004-10-10, 17:58 | Link #16 | ||
Lives under a bridge
Join Date: Dec 2003
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Yup, it's an alternate reality where in WW2 after the Japanese have invaded other countries and massacred countless Koreans, Chinese, Southeast Asians, they stopped and signed a "generous" peace treaty with the US and the Asian countries, hoarding the resources they have stolen to build an "ideal Japan", and it basically says there's nothing wrong with that. Quote:
If you accept manga as literature, there is something you need to realize: Literature is aimed at an intelligent mind, at the mind of the person who can see it for what it is and approach it from an educated background. The day we start dumbing it down because someone might read it who doesn't know enough to understand it is the day we'll live in a society I will want no part of. Do YOU want to be a part of that society, I wonder? |
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2004-10-10, 21:11 | Link #17 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2003
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2004-10-11, 00:58 | Link #18 | |
/Ultimate Magic Attack!!!
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Time Warp/Future
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I dislike a lot of literature works that I think they are racism/nationalism/sexism/whatever garbage and I tell people to stay away from them. This has nothing to do with censorship or legal system or whatever. I just dislike those kind of things, and that has nothing to do with where they come from. It just happens that this time it's Zipang and it seems some people think that I shouldn't dislike Zipang or tell people to stay away from it. So, what makes Zipang so special I wonder? I could care less whether you really decide to get Zipang manga/anime or not, I can't stop you anyway, actually I think I even suggested some people to read some of the Zipang manga if they really want to start a meaningful debate about this manga I basically just said I don't like it and I think people should stay away from this nationalism/militarism garbage. That should be quite clear. It's that mysteriously some people have this idea that I have a secret agenda of starting a crusade to paint the Japanese in totally negative and darkest lights, or that I have a ulterior motive of censoring Zipang or whatever. Heh, why don't they think that I have a secret agenda of promoting the series, which I'd say at least seems more likely than some secret internet crusade or censorship or whatever? (sarcasm) LOL maybe I'm a japanese nationalist/militarist who try to advertise Zipang to the world (/sarcasm) ===== NOTE: above is about Zipang, below is mostly just politics ===== BTW, this is nothing about Zipang the manga or anime itself, this is about politics, but since you mentioned it, about the japanese government's nationalism/militarism bent, well, of course Zipang alone doesn't mean much. But coupled with what the japanese government's been doing these years, like "revising" history books, officially paying respects to WW2 militarists as heroes of the country, I think it's quite clear about their militarism/nationalism bent. Stuffs like Zipang is just the icing on the top. Also sure it's good if a society or democratic nation (interesting note, in another thread a lot of Americans seem to try to convince me that there's currently no democratic nation in the world) or whatever has freedom of speech and no control of press, but when a lot of members of that society regard such racism/militarism/sexism/etc. literature as heroic, patriotic, hotblood, that's a worrisome sign if you ask me. If some author releases a pro-Nazi literature and the Germans regard it as heroic, patriotic, hotblood, shouldn't that be a worrisome situation? Of course this is not just about Japanese people, they are not unique in this. But then as geographically speaking they are quite close to me, and their past records don't sound that good, so naturally I'm more concerned about it. Those nationalists/militarists in japan definitely concern me more than, say, some nationalists/militarists in some south america country... About propaganda or not... well, sometimes it's hard to tell whether something is propaganda or not, now we can safely say that those Japanese animations produced at around WW2 time are propaganda, but at that time maybe no one thinks that way. A lot of things can be said as propaganda, like back in the cold war some USSR news report about all those bad things happen in US, and some US news report about all those bad things happen in USSR. They may not be fake news, they may be what really happened, but now we can say they are both propaganda trying to demonize the other side. Dictionary says propaganda as "the systematic propagation of a doctrine or cause or of information reflecting the views and interests of those advocating such a doctrine or cause". I guess Zipang could be said as part of japanese nationalism/militarism propaganda. Of course you can read it as just a work of literature and focus on the literature side, but the same can be said to a lot of other propaganda stuff. Last edited by dreamless; 2004-10-11 at 02:30. |
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2004-10-11, 02:51 | Link #19 | |
Gomen asobase desuwa!
Join Date: Nov 2003
Age: 43
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On the contrary, that notion is very absurd from our stance. Yasukuni Shrine was made over a century before the war to honor the Tokugawa Shogunate and all warriors that died in the battlefield - both past and future. The spirits of a samurai that died in the Meiji Restoration, an admiral who died in the Russo-Japanese War, a lowly private that died in Bataan, General Tojo, and JASDF forces serving in Iraq ALL go to Yasukuni Shrine. The US honors its war veterans at Arlington National Cemetary. Once again, you are contradicting your past statement. I'm sorry, but your tone on this sentence reflects a sense that "Japanese committed atrocities in the war, they have no right to honor veterans because they died because they deserved to." Now that really hurts if you meant it that way. My grandfather duly served at Midway and Guadacanal, he made it through as he saw his compatriots die in front of him by American forces. There are tons of Japanese soldiers that still lay on those islands to this date, that were left behind. We cannot honor those soldiers that died in the battlefield? Yes we lost the war. But they served and died for their country. We cannot honor them? If you can say that, then please, say the same to the American forces that are dying each day right now in Iraq. "Japanese committed atrocities in the war, they have no right to honor veterans because they died because that's what they deserve." "Americans commmitted atrocities in the war, they have no right to honor veterans because they died because that's what they deserve." |
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2004-10-11, 03:30 | Link #20 | |
/Ultimate Magic Attack!!!
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Time Warp/Future
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Personally I have no problem honoring some brave warriors who tricked by war militants and believed in their cause that died on battle field. But from my understanding that the notion about Yasukuni Shrine is that it contains the spirits of ALL those Japanese died in WW2, including militant Generals, war criminals, etc. etc. and honoring them all could be a problem. It means that it seems the Japanese Prime Minister can't distinguish the bad from the good, so in honoring those misleaded brave warriors who died in the course of the war, who deserves the honor, he also honors some japanese psychos and expansionist extremists who plotted and started the wars. In honoring the idea that one should fight and die bravely for his country, he also honors the idea that one should steal and rob land and resources from other countries to build a better Japan. Of course maybe I have this idea wrong, so if the Yasukuni Shrine doesn't contain the spirits of those war criminals or militant Generals who plotted and started the war, then I have absolutely no problem about it. So I have no problem if the American honors a shrine which contains the spirits of soldiers died in Vietnam and Iraq, but if the spirits of some psychos who ordered massacres in Vietnam and the spirit of George W. Bush (when his time comes that is) goes into that shrine too, then it could become problematic. And that raises another issue, something about the neo-history revisionism in Japan. It seems some Japanese intentionally try to be indifferent to the ideas of right and wrong, like Yasukuni Shrine, spirits of everyone died in war goes into it, not differentiating those honorable soldiers from those dishonorable militants. And now they are honored all alike. I think nowadays they try to say "war is war, there's nothing right or wrong about a war", and they try to paint WW2 in that color. Indeed there are some wars that there's nothing right or wrong about it, but when country A invades country B for its own profit, and country B fights back, then A is wrong and B is right, there should be no doubt about that. So we should make it clear that Japan was wrong in invading others for land and resources in WW2, and it was clearly right for other countries to fight back the Japanese invasion. So it's not just that "you lost a war" but rather "you lost a war that you should lose because you are wrong to try to steal lands and resources from others to benefit yourself". Of course historically a lot of "wrong wars/invasion to others" were won, but that doesn't mean one should try to advertise it as the right idea. Bush ordered US to invade Iraq and won, but I don't think anyone with a right mind should try to glorify and honor Bush for the war. Instead, they should clearly know that this war is wrong, despite they have won the war. So if the Yasukuni Shrine does indeed differentiate between war criminals/expansionist militants and brave warriors who fought for their country tricked by those war criminals, and does not contain those dishonorable spirits, then I'll retract my comments about Yasukuni Shrine. and if the japanese government doesn't try to write their history books trying to say Japan was not wrong in WW2, or that Japan was only wrong because she fought a war she couldn't win, not because it's wrong to invade others to start with, that there's no right side or wrong side in WW2, then I'll retract my comments about the history revisionism. At least most of the Germans I talked to admit that Germany was wrong in WW2, not because she lost the war, but because she started the war. And here I've met enough Americans who agree that it's wrong for Bush to invade Iraq, even despite the fact that they won the war. Oh, and it's not really about some individual atrocities commited by individual japanese soldier. I'm pretty sure there are individual angry Koreans, Chinese, Southeast Asians etc. who have commited atrocities to innocent Japanese civilians back in WW2, and I'm pretty sure there are individual angry French people, British people, etc. who have commited atrocities to innocent German civilians back in WW2. But that doesn't change the fact that on the grand scale of things, Japan and Germany are the wrong side, while the other countries fighting back their invasions are the right side. So excuses like "horrble things happen in war", "both sides commited atrocities to each other" etc. etc. regarding WW2 are just that, lame excuses. Japan invades others, they fight back, then on the grand scale Japan is wrong and those other countries are right. If some angry mob from other countries killed innocent Japanese civilians there, that doesn't change the fact that Japan is wrong and other countries are right. You can say what those angry mobs have done are wrong, you can say those innocent Japanese civilians are not wrong and are victims of war, but that doesn't mean you can say on the grand scale that Japan is not wrong and those other countries fighting back invasion are not right. Last edited by dreamless; 2004-10-11 at 04:20. |
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