2013-03-27, 09:27 | Link #21 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2011
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not really. he's a racist, but that's it. humanitarians have worked with racists plenty of times in real world history to make things better or at least hopefully make things better. madara is pretty weak minded. i'm surprised how easily he supposedly turned |
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2013-03-27, 09:31 | Link #22 |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2004
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Did I say he was _the_ reason? I'm just saying that that he's been a large part even if it's unintentionally a trigger (like killing Izuna)
As for Madara being weak-minded, that was already a given. It was expected that he couldn't have had too great a reason to go nuts. To be fair, he was already mistrustful before this. It was a lifetime of fighting and hating after all. |
2013-03-27, 10:43 | Link #24 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: The Dark Side of The Moon
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considering that kishi is trying to get across the point that the more an uchiha loses, the more his brain gets fucked up and his eyes grow in strength, I can understand Madara's logic (on teh basis that the sharingan comes with a legitimate mental disorder)
Lost his brother (and wasn't even strong enough to avenge him even with his new eyes) Lost members of the clan from being too weak, Lost the trust of the entire clan... for apparently wanting too much power And finally when there's a glimmer of hope, loses that too, and realizes he has no one Hashirama is idealistic, but ultimately he'll do what the majority wants for the sake of peace, and Madara would barely find redemption, let alone acceptance in that world So Madara has literally no one right now, except for Hashirama who isn't that reliable except for idealistic and moral support. He needs Izuna thenn factor in Uchihaphrenia and bingo, cookoo bananas However, i honestly wonder if Madara even came up with the whole eye of the moon plan from now or not, becauseeeee now I'm almost positive that Madara didn't feign death and trick Hashirama, Hashirama probably spared him again. And maybe even gave him some of his lifeforce (through some jutsu) to help him stay alive in exchange for never returning to hurt the village and try and live a new life elsewhere to be free and happy for once. then rinnegan happens and madara gets a new idea
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2013-03-27, 11:12 | Link #25 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: East Cupcake
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To use Naruto as a comparison: Naruto was shunned, hated, and mentally and spiritually abused for over a decade. His only support was from an overly idealistic leader that never really did anything for him (beyond giving him a basic level of protection and security) and could only cheer him on from the side-lines. Despite this, he still managed to find a way to work within the society that hated him, and through years of effort and hard work (and saving the village...twice ) he was able to sway the people's opinion. True, Madara grew up in a time of war and lost his entire family during the years of conflict, but the basic ideal of peace leading to a better life is still found in both characters even if the level of tragedy is different. Madara's actions were simply those of a man who never even attempted to compromise on his own pride, rather he tried to force the world to bend to him, and when the world didn't bend he sought other avenues for subjugation. |
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2013-03-27, 11:54 | Link #27 |
Ultra noob
Join Date: Dec 2004
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Madara was right in his interpretation of the sentiments of the villagers and the next hokage. Given that there is no good way for him to solve the foreseen doom of his clan from within the village, it just makes sense for him to try without.
What his clan faced was not just shunning, but hatred, racism and likely eventual genocide. Comparing it to what Naruto faced is just off. Remember that he first attempted to get his clan to withdraw but they didn't trust him. So it's not like he didn't try or compromise. |
2013-03-27, 12:02 | Link #28 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: East Cupcake
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So why didn't he even attempt to change this outlook? Nothing Madara did was in any way conductive to trying to compromise or create equality. (Nothing Tobirama did helped either.) |
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2013-03-27, 12:22 | Link #32 |
Ninja Emperor
Join Date: Oct 2004
Age: 38
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I don't know what everyone is complaining about. The Senju and the Uchiha were mortal enemies. Madara has been taught since childhood that this clan is the enemy. He's seen all of his siblings die in war. He doesn't fully believe in the alliance even though he values the idea and Tobirama isn't making it a secret that he doesn't trust the Uchiha. Add to that the fact that Madara lost the support of the Uchiha clan. He's trying to protect them. He believes that Tobirama's distrust of the Uchiha will lead to their destruction when Hashirama can no longer keep him in check. His motivations for rebellion are not far fetched.
Keep in mind that Madara isn't to the point yet where he becomes the evil mastermind of the series. Right now he's at the point of rebellion against a power structure that he believes will lead to his clan's destruction. I think Kishimoto has done a decent job of showing what motivated Madara and has made it more interesting by making Madara and Hashirama friends in the beginning. I don't think Tobirama is fully to blame for what is happening. He doesn't trust Madara and Madara doesn't trust him. It's a vicious cycle. Unfortunately ninja don't have the sense to talk things out so when one has a problem with another the conflict is more likely to end in bloodshed than diplomacy. The only thing I didn't like about this chapter was Hashirama's willingness to kill himself just to appease Madara. That was ridiculous.
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2013-03-27, 12:28 | Link #33 | |
Ultra noob
Join Date: Dec 2004
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But he foresaw the inequality and probably saw no way around the doom he predicted. He did compromise by trying to pull his clan out, but his clan won't trust him (probably because they trusted the first more). He wasn't even doing it for his pride, but for his clan. He wasn't even depicted to be unhappy about not being chosen as hokage. |
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2013-03-27, 12:40 | Link #34 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2011
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yea, i think at least part of what kishi is trying to convey here is that madara is living out a self-fulfilling prophesy here. if he stayed things could have possibly been different, but he's forcing his own paranoid suspicions to come true basically |
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2013-03-27, 13:30 | Link #35 | |||
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: East Cupcake
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That being said, we do not need to see the itty bitty details to know what Madara (and others) are capable of or what they have already done. Madara is a character who demanded the death of his sworn rival rather than simply surrender (he even acknowledged that his death would mean nothing to a clan that had already forsaken him). He is a prideful character who refuses to compromise if he ever comes across as being the weaker of the compromise. Quote:
Additionally, I do not understand why you think telling the Uchiha to leave Konoha is a compromise. I guess it is technically a compromise for the Uchiha Clan, but it's not really a compromise with Konoha... Quote:
I should note, I do feel some sympathy for Madara (unlike Tobi, who I feel nothing by incredulity for). He is a product f his times who dreams of something better but through his own and others actions he can never actually achieve his dreams. There is something realistically tragic about Madara. Last edited by james0246; 2013-03-27 at 13:58. |
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2013-03-27, 13:33 | Link #36 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Hidden Village of Sake
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It was fun to read how "democracy" caused the whole problem
It says a lot about Madara's bad reputation that his own clan did choose Hashirama instead of him. Whenever we see Madara talking it's clear that he has some mental issues, the flashback made it so clear how much more reliable and kind person Hashirama was, and on top of that even stronger, so it's no wonder that in a democracy people chose him. It seems that Madara had already his dream of Eternal Tsukiyomi at the time he left the village. He already told to Hashirama that the world they live in is just entertainment, that's very similar to what Tobito tells when killing people, since according to their dream when Eternal Tsukiyomi beings anything that happened before becomes meaningless, one could say it was just entertainment. Madara seems to have complete self confidence at the end of this chapter, so i guess he already worked out his plan of stealing Hashirama's cells, otherwise he shouldn't have such self confidence after being defeated by Hashirama multiple times. Last edited by Ero-Senn1n; 2013-03-27 at 13:53. |
2013-03-27, 14:06 | Link #37 | ||
The First Rasengan!!
Join Date: Nov 2007
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just because you made a promise to someone or that someone entrusted the future to you, doesnt mean you have to do it alone or something like that... Quote:
for fun, i think the implant itself has much to do with madara being so ridiculous and as awful as this will sound, i feel sasuke implant will have something to do with why he returns to konoha (if he indeed does)
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2013-03-27, 14:07 | Link #38 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2012
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You can certainly relate Tobirama to Danzo. They both want what's best for the village and ironically they both had to besiege the Uchiha. There's no chance Tobirama didn't know that Madara was outside the window while he was talking to Hashirama. And obviously, Hashirama has to side with his Brother over Madara.
I think there's more to Madara turning evil than the small conversations and betrayals in this chapter. Compare Madara and Hashirama to Sasuke and Naruto. Sasuke was jealous of naruto at some points, and i think Madara was jealous that Hashirama was stronger than him, still had has family, was able to protect his family while Madara couldn't. Also, now i think its Madara who killed the remainder of the Senju clan, and possibly the Shimura clan too. |
2013-03-27, 15:07 | Link #40 |
Junior Member
Join Date: Oct 2012
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Two opposing forces coming together, do you think it was at that time Madara figured out that by fusing Hashirama's cells with himself he can gain new strength?
Hashirama's point of this whole flashback is to clear up some things for Sasuke, like the fact that the village ended a long era of fighting between the two clans and stopped the bloodshed of children but I wonder what will Sasuke's take be on all this.... |
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weekly spoiler discussion |
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