Fate/stay night Game discussion (Warning: Spoilers)

[DragoZERO]

Originally Posted by Cherry_Lover

I think the issue there is more what is implied (through Sakura's words) to have happened than what is shown to have happened.

I know it was implied, but everyone made it sound like it was shown.

[Reckoner]

meh. None of the characters are really all that important other than Shirou, Rin, and Saber to Fate/Stay Night. Those are the three characters that provide both the essentials to the Fate/Stay Night universe (Shirou) and the fanbase (Saber), as well as a helpful mechanism in moving the story (Rin).

Yeah, Sakura isn't even really mentioned in the other two routes because she doesn't even matter to those routes. Those two routes can stand on their own without her presence, so there is really no need to expand upon her. HF's ending results in a complete shut out of happily ever after (Fate doesn't offer much to off on), but UBW actually provides the mechanism to tell more in this story.

And don't get me wrong, Sakura, Illya, and all the other servants were interesting characters, but we don't need to bring them back for any reason. We can have new characters you know?

[Cherry_Lover]

Originally Posted by Reckoner

meh. None of the characters are really all that important other than Shirou, Rin, and Saber to Fate/Stay Night.

That's complete crap. It wouldn't be a story without all the other characters, and Sakura is a big part of the story.

the fanbase (Saber)

If they write a sequel using this attitude, I might have to fly to Japan just so I can kick Nasu in the fucking nuts. "The fanbase" /= "Saber fans". I am a fucking fan, and I certainly wouldn't be satisfied to see a story where they Deus-Ex machina'd Saber in there but did nothing for Sakura. And, I suspect the same applies to the fans of various other characters (Ilya, Rider, Archer etc.) who would be shafted by such an approach (although Sakura is the more egregious case, since she is still alive, and is suffering in the background throughout the whole damn thing).

as well as a helpful mechanism in moving the story (Rin).

Rin is only needed to give plot exposition. The second story wouldn't need that, so Rin isn't needed either.

Yeah, Sakura isn't even really mentioned in the other two routes because she doesn't even matter to those routes.

Except that she does. A lot of what Rin does, and a lot of the situations in the game are driven by her.

Those two routes can stand on their own without her presence, so there is really no need to expand upon her.

And HF can stand on it's own, largely, without the other two routes. All it needs is the basic plot exposition.

If Nasu didn't want HF to be considered as "as important" as the other routes, he would have said so. All three routes are equal, and when you add it up over the three routes Sakura is just as important a character as Saber, and perhaps as important as Rin. It's just that her importance is only obvious in HF.

HF's ending results in a complete shut out of happily ever after (Fate doesn't offer much to off on), but UBW actually provides the mechanism to tell more in this story.

Why? HF has the characters more powerful than ever, and there are easily ways you could make a sequel out of it, plus it involves all three of the main heroines of the game.

Not to mention that following UBW but ignoring Sakura's situation leads to the fact that people would be playing it knowing full well that Sakura is suffering in the background whilst it happened, which would just cause even more rage. For Nasu to do that would tear the fanbase in half even more than it already is, between people with a heart and people who don't care about Sakura.

And don't get me wrong, Sakura, Illya, and all the other servants were interesting characters, but we don't need to bring them back for any reason.

If you're going to cut those characters out, you might as well go the whole hog and cut Saber, Shirou and Rin out too, because you're already removed most of what makes the story interesting. Particularly since you're not retaining any of the "Grail War" aspects of it. You've cut out most of the characters (except the two favourite girls) and the original setting, it's barely even a sequel, it's just fanservice for Rin and Saber fans.

We can have new characters you know?

Yeah, if Nasu wants to lose about 50% of the fanbase out of sheer rage. As popular as Saber is, I can't imagine cutting out every single damn other character and then finding a way to shove her back in would garner anything but rage from the 50% or so of fans who aren't outright Saber worshippers (I'd say "people who think she could walk on water", but unfortunately they'd actually be right...)

[GDB]

Originally Posted by Cherry_Lover

Not to mention that following UBW but ignoring Sakura's situation leads to the fact that people would be playing it knowing full well that Sakura is suffering in the background whilst it happened, which would just cause even more rage. For Nasu to do that would tear the fanbase in half even more than it already is, between people with a heart and people who don't care about Sakura.

1) I don't think Sakura fans cover half the fanbase.
2) Just because people don't care about Sakura, don't like her as a character, or don't want to hear her story (repeated) doesn't mean they don't have a heart. She's a fictional character.

Yeah, if Nasu wants to lose about 50% of the fanbase out of sheer rage. As popular as Saber is, I can't imagine cutting out every single damn other character and then finding a way to shove her back in would garner anything but rage from the 50% or so of fans who aren't outright Saber worshippers (I'd say "people who think she could walk on water", but unfortunately they'd actually be right...)

People aren't really raging that much from Fate/Extra, other than how bad it is (and the lol choice for new-Saber), and it's missing a lot of the characters from Fate.

[aldw]

Originally Posted by Cherry_Lover

Except that it's not. Whilst the characters are 'canon', the actual events of the game itself are not.

Spoiler:

In fact, the whole thing is fake, so we have no idea what is actually going on.

HA is like Kagetsu Tohya, no matter if the route that leads to it is mentioned or not, doesn't mean that it didn't happen. It's quite clear from the readthroughs or playthroughs for that matter, and I would take Evospace's observations on that very much ahead of most here.

Also, Nasu has never said HF was more important than the other routes, they all have equal value in the story. It's strictly the Sakura-extremists who lash out at others who don't see things exactly their way.

[Cherry_Lover]

Originally Posted by GDB

1) I don't think Sakura fans cover half the fanbase.

No, but what about Ilya fans, Archer fans, Rider fans and so on? Or people who just wouldn't like to play a game where there is the fact that every single time you tell Shirou and Rin to go to sleep you're implictly condemning Sakura to another night of worm rape? Or people who would just be generally annoyed at the absense of most of the characters that they liked from the original game?

If you add up all the people who would be annoyed at them intentionally taking only the two favourite characters from the game and casting away the rest, I think it would add up to nearly half of the fanbase.

2) Just because people don't care about Sakura, don't like her as a character, or don't want to hear her story (repeated) doesn't mean they don't have a heart. She's a fictional character.

To me, if someone reads HF and doesn't feel horribly sad at Sakura's plight and want it to be better, then they don't have a heart. But that's just my opinion, so....

People aren't really raging that much from Fate/Extra, other than how bad it is (and the lol choice for new-Saber), and it's missing a lot of the characters from Fate.

Yeah, because it's quite obviously not a FSN sequel. In fact, of the characters from Fate, it has only Archer and Lancer. Rin and Shinji are different people who are using that look as an avtar, Sakura is an NPC and Saber just 'happens' to look the same. Nonetheless, it's rather revealing that, despite it being a different game in a totally different setting, they still chose to include a Sakura look-alike, a Rin look-alike, a Shinji look-alike, a Kotomine look-alike and a Saber look-alike, along Archer and Lancer.

There is a difference between making an RPG loosely based around FSN and making an actual sequel, and cutting out 90% of the characters from the original, especially if all you're doing is casting them into the background and leaving them to suffer horribly, like they would be with Sakura, is not going to win you any friends.

Go look at the 'sequels' Nasu has made so far. One thing that they all have in common is that they try to satisfy everyone. Nasu knows that he has a diverse fanbase, and to make a sequel which involves only a small proportion of the characters would destroy that, so he won't do it. Hence why we won't get a genuine FSN sequel, because someone would get angered by it....

Originally Posted by aldw

HA is like Kagetsu Tohya, no matter if the route that leads to it is mentioned or not, doesn't mean that it didn't happen.

No, but the Nasuverse is a multiverse. Just because HA may have happened in one universe, it doesn't mean that the FSN endings are suddenly not canon.

Also, Nasu has never said HF was more important than the other routes, they all have equal value in the story. It's strictly the Sakura-extremists who lash out at others who don't see things exactly their way.

Hey, when did I claim that it was?

If anything, it's the Sakura-haters (or at least, not-fans) who are taking the attitude that the three routes are not equal (claiming HF is 'less important'). That's certainly the impression I got, anyway.

[GDB]

Originally Posted by Cherry_Lover

To me, if someone reads HF and doesn't feel horribly sad at Sakura's plight and want it to be better, then they don't have a heart. But that's just my opinion, so....

And some people can differentiate between reality and fiction. Just because they don't care about her doesn't mean they don't have a heart, it just means they don't care about her. There could be any number of reasons.

[Reckoner]

Originally Posted by Cherry_Lover

That's complete crap. It wouldn't be a story without all the other characters, and Sakura is a big part of the story.

How so?

Originally Posted by Cherry_Lover

If they write a sequel using this attitude, I might have to fly to Japan just so I can kick Nasu in the fucking nuts. "The fanbase" /= "Saber fans". I am a fucking fan, and I certainly wouldn't be satisfied to see a story where they Deus-Ex machina'd Saber in there but did nothing for Sakura. And, I suspect the same applies to the fans of various other characters (Ilya, Rider, Archer etc.) who would be shafted by such an approach (although Sakura is the more egregious case, since she is still alive, and is suffering in the background throughout the whole damn thing).

Sakura has her own story, in the other routes she is irrelevant. If you wanted, you could consider them different universes where the only one abusing her is Shinji (And in UBW he changes in the end).

Originally Posted by Cherry_Lover

Rin is only needed to give plot exposition. The second story wouldn't need that, so Rin isn't needed either.

We don't know how this second story would be like because it hasn't been written. If we were further exploring the world of the magi, I would be inclined to disagree. Though her role could be fulfilled by someone else I suppose.

Originally Posted by Cherry_Lover

Except that she does. A lot of what Rin does, and a lot of the situations in the game are driven by her.

Doesn't mean Sakura is a necessity to a fate/stay night sequel. And she doesn't impact the other routes even 1/8 as much as you try to make it seem.

Originally Posted by Cherry_Lover

And HF can stand on it's own, largely, without the other two routes. All it needs is the basic plot exposition.

If Nasu didn't want HF to be considered as "as important" as the other routes, he would have said so. All three routes are equal, and when you add it up over the three routes Sakura is just as important a character as Saber, and perhaps as important as Rin. It's just that her importance is only obvious in HF.

Did I ever say HF wasn't important? I just said UBW has the most leeway to creating a decent and interesting sequel.

Originally Posted by Cherry_Lover

Why? HF has the characters more powerful than ever, and there are easily ways you could make a sequel out of it, plus it involves all three of the main heroines of the game.

Not to mention that following UBW but ignoring Sakura's situation leads to the fact that people would be playing it knowing full well that Sakura is suffering in the background whilst it happened, which would just cause even more rage. For Nasu to do that would tear the fanbase in half even more than it already is, between people with a heart and people who don't care about Sakura.

HF ends with Shiro living with Sakura and Rider with Rin visiting here and there. UBW can lead to another country, England. The change in setting provides much potential to making a whole new story. In HF there is no such change in setting possible (without making us go "lolwut"). Plus HF is missing the most popular heroine of them all, Saber, which is crucial to the game's success.

Again, Sakura's situation is irrelevant to the other routes. If you never played HF, it wouldn't of made any impression on your mind really to see what is really up with her.

Originally Posted by Cherry_Lover

If you're going to cut those characters out, you might as well go the whole hog and cut Saber, Shirou and Rin out too, because you're already removed most of what makes the story interesting. Particularly since you're not retaining any of the "Grail War" aspects of it. You've cut out most of the characters (except the two favourite girls) and the original setting, it's barely even a sequel, it's just fanservice for Rin and Saber fans.

My desire in such a story isn't to see more servants, or more of a grail war. I'm asking for a whole new story, continuing the adventures of these characters as they explore the world of the magi. I personally would find it more interesting to learn more about Nasu's world. In much of his stories he only hints at such things such as the magic association and such, without ever actually exploring such groups, people, or the like.

Originally Posted by Cherry_Lover

Yeah, if Nasu wants to lose about 50% of the fanbase out of sheer rage. As popular as Saber is, I can't imagine cutting out every single damn other character and then finding a way to shove her back in would garner anything but rage from the 50% or so of fans who aren't outright Saber worshippers (I'd say "people who think she could walk on water", but unfortunately they'd actually be right...)

You're seriously deluded if you think that much of the fanbase is that into Sakura. Saber staying alive isn't as much deux ex machina as many of the things that happened at the end of HF, so I wouldn't complain.

[DragoZERO]

Did Saber ever lose her armor when she ran out of magical energy like in the anime and they just never showed it until the very end of Fate?

[Moczo]

I'm recalling that when she, Rin, and Archer went in after Shirou at Castle Einzbern, Saber wasn't wearing her armor because she didn't have enough energy to create it. But I don't remember if she ever lost it in mid-fight. Possibly? It sounds like something that could have happened.

[Cherry_Lover]

Originally Posted by Reckoner

How so?

Well, do you think that Rin, Shirou and Saber would have had a Grail War worth writing about if they'd been the only three characters...?

Sakura has her own story, in the other routes she is irrelevant.

You could largely say the same about Saber. Outside of Fate, you could replace her with $generic_hero and it wouldn't matter all that much. At least no more than removing Sakura would, anyway.

Plus, even if what you say is true, that story is part of the game. You can't say "Sakura doesn't matter because she only matters in her route", because her route is part of the game itself. A FSN sequel is a sequel to the whole of FSN, even if it only follows one ending, so it has to consider the characters as they are throughout the whole game, and on that basis Sakura is about equal with Saber and a little behind Rin.

If you wanted, you could consider them different universes where the only one abusing her is Shinji (And in UBW he changes in the end).

No, you really can't. The stories all follow from a common continuity, and more importantly there are big hints in Fate and (especially) UBW that Zouken exists. Not to mention that, without Sakura's situation, Rin's mother would still be alive and Sakura's hair would be black.

We don't know how this second story would be like because it hasn't been written.

So, stop saying that Rin or Saber would matter but that Sakura wouldn't.

Though her role could be fulfilled by someone else I suppose.

Exactly. In fact, it could quite easily be filled by Sakura, who is a hell of a lot more knowledgeable about magic than she seems.

Doesn't mean Sakura is a necessity to a fate/stay night sequel.

Perhaps not, but nor is Rin.

And she doesn't impact the other routes even 1/8 as much as you try to make it seem.

Rubbish. She's a big influence on Rin (likely the reason why Rin saved Sakura), she's the true master of Rider, she's almost certainly the reason why Rin saved Shinji in UBW, and she has various other effects on the story.

Did I ever say HF wasn't important? I just said UBW has the most leeway to creating a decent and interesting sequel.

Actually, for what you're thinking of, a post-HF sequel where we followed Rin at the clock tower would probably work best, because she has the second magic to work on, Shirou and Sakura back in Fuyuki to help train and her own career to pursue. It'd allow you to cover most aspects of magic adequately, more so than UBW would, and there wouldn't be the issue of Sakura lying in the background (and, it does matter, because it would matter to Shirou and Rin if they found out).

HF ends with Shiro living with Sakura and Rider with Rin visiting here and there. UBW can lead to another country, England. The change in setting provides much potential to making a whole new story.

Well, perhaps, but either story could lead to things happening aterwards. But, anyway, if you're going for that, you may as well just make up a whole new set of characters, rather than pissing people off by doing a sequel to one route and discarding most of the characters, including one of the main heroines of the game.

In HF there is no such change in setting possible (without making us go "lolwut").

Well, Rin invites Sakura to London to study, and it's quite possible for her to take that offer once she graduates (along with Shirou). But, anyway, who says we need to follow Shirou?

Plus HF is missing the most popular heroine of them all, Saber, which is crucial to the game's success.

Sorry, but if you're going by this argument, then the only sequel you will ever see will be one following some hypothetical "good end", because just as including Saber is crucial to attract Saber fans, including Sakura is crucial to attract her fans, including Ilya is crucial to attract her fans and so on. Whilst you're right that Saber would matter the most, if they're going down that path (compromising story for fanservice), then they may as well go the whole hog and shove everyone in there.

Again, Sakura's situation is irrelevant to the other routes. If you never played HF, it wouldn't of made any impression on your mind really to see what is really up with her.

Perhaps, but HF is part of the game. You cannot exclude Sakura on the grounds that she doesn't really have much involvement in UBW, because this is a FSN sequel, not just a UBW one.

My desire in such a story isn't to see more servants, or more of a grail war. I'm asking for a whole new story, continuing the adventures of these characters as they explore the world of the magi. I personally would find it more interesting to learn more about Nasu's world. In much of his stories he only hints at such things such as the magic association and such, without ever actually exploring such groups, people, or the like.

Fair enough, but in that case it's not a FSN sequel, really, it's a totally different story set in the same multiverse. There's no reason to involve Shirou, Saber or Rin either. In fact, it's better for them if they do that, because then they don't have a pre-existing fanbase with certain expectations to appeal to and inevitably annoy at least part of (I'm certainly not the only person who would be pissed off at them leaving Sakura out, and I'm sure the same applies to other characters and their fans, plus you'd have the people who complain about them "milking" FSN and the people who like the "Grail War" aspect of it).

If you make a sequel, then it's expected that someone reading it will have read the original, whereas if they make something totally different it's not, which increases the potential fanbase. So, there's no good reason for such a story to follow on from UBW and include the FSN characters (at least not in any meaningful way).

You're seriously deluded if you think that much of the fanbase is that into Sakura. Saber staying alive isn't as much deux ex machina as many of the things that happened at the end of HF, so I wouldn't complain.

Please go back and read my comment again, more closely....

[DragoZERO]

Originally Posted by Moczo

I'm recalling that when she, Rin, and Archer went in after Shirou at Castle Einzbern, Saber wasn't wearing her armor because she didn't have enough energy to create it. But I don't remember if she ever lost it in mid-fight. Possibly? It sounds like something that could have happened.

Well, when she went to save Shirou, she was wearing the clothes Rin wore her. We only saw her in the armor clothes, without armor, at the very end. And it was an awesome outfit too. I was disappointed when they showed it so soon in the anime. I saw it as a nice treat at the end of the game.

[Moczo]

When did it show up first in the anime? It's been awhile since I watched the early episodes. And, well, 'Saber's armor disappeared' isn't the sort of detail that really sticks out amongst the wall of text that is the VN unless a picture's attached to it...

[DragoZERO]

Originally Posted by Moczo

When did it show up first in the anime? It's been awhile since I watched the early episodes. And, well, 'Saber's armor disappeared' isn't the sort of detail that really sticks out amongst the wall of text that is the VN unless a picture's attached to it...

Ummm...I think when she first faced Assassin.

Yeah, there is a lot of detail on those walls.

[Moczo]

Luckily, this is the PC that has FSN installed in it, so I was able to skip through and check.

Yes, her armor disappeared after her fight with Assassin. 'The armor Saber had on suddenly disappears. The girl in her defenseless blue clothes sways without turning around'. So it happens, we just don't get to see it until the end.

EDIT: Though weirdly enough, I kept going and her armor explicitly doesn't disappear after she nukes Rider. Rin mentions having to take it off her.

[DragoZERO]

I remember Rin saying she removed it. I guess they slipped up there.

Thanks for checking.

Also, does the RN patch add new music too?

[Moczo]

I... I don't know, honestly. I'm sort of a multitasker, so on my first read-through I sort of would have the music off pretty often so I could listen to the television in the background or something. So if I hear music that I don't remember, I'm not sure if it's new or if I just missed it last time.

[Cherry_Lover]

Originally Posted by DragoZERO

Also, does the RN patch add new music too?

Yeah, it did. There's a few tracks that weren't in the original game that are in Realta Nua, and at least some versions of the patch add them.

[DragoZERO]

Originally Posted by Moczo

I... I don't know, honestly. I'm sort of a multitasker, so on my first read-through I sort of would have the music off pretty often so I could listen to the television in the background or something. So if I hear music that I don't remember, I'm not sure if it's new or if I just missed it last time.

I don't think you should multitask in this situation. Not listening to the music really makes you lose a lot. Unless it's your second play through or something.

Originally Posted by Cherry_Lover

Yeah, it did. There's a few tracks that weren't in the original game that are in Realta Nua, and at least some versions of the patch add them.

Great, thanks. I know there is a lot of extra tracks on the OST, so yeah.

[Moczo]

Originally Posted by DragoZERO

I don't think you should multitask in this situation. Not listening to the music really makes you lose a lot. Unless it's your second play through or something.

Er... um... I'm listening to the music on my second play-through...

So it's like... maybe I did it backwards, but I'm getting the full experience in the end...