Umineko no Naku Koro ni - Episode 5 Discussion / Poll

[Klashikari]

^ this is actually where discussions become interesting when people share different interpretations.
For obvious reasons, there was no attempt to convert anyone whatsoever, just bringing each other points. I think we had some even more rocky discussions in the past between VN readers regarding interpretations and theories

The purpose of such discussion is always debating regarding an interpretation and exposing their pos and cons. It is up to the individual to discard or retain elements from such discussions, that's a given.

[plzd0ntkeelme]

Originally Posted by Klashikari

And this is the reason why I and several people mentioned the following statement:
Again, regardless if Beatrice is the culprit or not, her existence doesn't mean she exists in the said "real world", that's all. This is also why I and chounokoe demonstrated that their powers can be real without being directly applied to Battler etc.
We are not declaring elements are false, but you are interpreting in one dimensional way about what they can do, despite it was never stated they will barge in there and change the whole course of the plot.

The anime doesn't have to be explicit, heck the VN didn't even explain what was the real meaning of "endless" and "miracles" magic at this point of Ep1. This was however the interpretation that made sense the most, if you take the approach of "witches exist outside of Battler's kakera". That's all.

This is why your vision is attracting response, because you are taking everything presented to you to the very first degree, despite there is a much more meaningful possibility behind elements and facts the story had unfolded so far.
This is why, many of us believe it is rather too bad to stop the thought process, just because there is a mere "display of magic" without any real proof it is a definite setup to the whole "concept" of the world of Umineko.

And please do not worry, this kind of concept was already brought and expected by the VN players ever since Episode 1, it isn't related to our game knowledge from EP2-3-4.

As i said my interpretation is based on what the anime tells so far. If the anime reveal that the words they're using are totally different meaning, then we'll discuss that in the future.

I never said they will barge in there and change the plot. Please don't put word in my mouth.

Is my post some kind of threat to the forum or something. Is it a crime to stop this 'thought process'? Am i not allowed to post my own interpretation? Everyone comes with their own interpretation. You can't have all the forum members to only accept your interpretation. If you disagree with it then sure, but you can't stop me from discussing it.

From what I read the answer arc hasn't been released yet so everything so far is just interpretation, and I nor anybody else shouldn't take it more than that.

[Klashikari]

^ And this is also the reason why there are various different interpretations with the anime alone.

And no, it isn't a threat: I will return the same kind of reasoning: Is it forbidden to point problems with an interpretation? Is it forbidden to share a conflicting information?
There are no problem with these, and as much as I can see the previous messages of chounokoe, jan poo etc, non were "you are wrong, deal with it".
We disagree with your intrepretation, that doesn't mean we want you to stop claiming this. However, there is also a point when a different interpretation should be disclosed in order to give other interpretations more chances to be relevant or to be corrected in some aspect. And even for these, it is up to the individual to discard these inputs or not.

I will be blunt: like other topics we had gone through with this series (be it adaptation, quality discussion, characters, theories etc), there is always a margin for debate and confronting different interpretations. Therefore, there is no need to start being on the sharp defensive if one doesn't agree, otherwise, it will be like talking to a wall. Any discussion are open to everyone, and as result, (dis)agreements will raise naturally.

And no, please do not believe you "need" the answer arc to clear interpretations into facts. Like Higurashi, Umineko's questions arcs are pretty nifty with mystery and intwined clues and answers by themselves.
You will realize this pretty soon with Episode 2 anyway.

[chounokoe]

Originally Posted by plzd0ntkeelme

As i said my interpretation is based on what the anime tells so far. If the anime reveal that the words they're using are totally different meaning, then we'll discuss that in the future.

I never said they will barge in there and change the plot. Please don't put word in my mouth.

Is my post some kind of threat to the forum or something. Is it a crime to stop this 'thought process'? Am i not allowed to post my own interpretation? Everyone comes with their own interpretation. You can't have all the forum members to only accept your interpretation. If you disagree with it then sure, but you can't stop me from discussing it.

From what I read the answer arc hasn't been released yet so everything so far is just interpretation, and I nor anybody else shouldn't take it more than that.

I think you shouldn't be so affraid of your stance being attacked, it is common knowledge that in a mystery different interpretations will collide.
Like Klashi said, nobody is attacking you for anything you've done, if you have the opinion that witches can exist on Rokkenjima, then stay with it, argue in it's defense, struggle for your opinion to win...but what many people (at least I think so, because it was my impulse) found rather saddening was that you stopped at mere visual things that were displayed to you. That is why many people here want you to think about the possibilities that the other side could have pretty valid points against the existence of witches.
Said shortly, we're trying to convince you that one of the first steps should be 'turning the chess board'.

Saying that the anime did not verbally state that witches are limited in their power to one dimension seems to be thinking a bit to simple.
Because why should the witches tell or show you that they are limited, when they want to convince you of the exact opposite.
It's like handing a teacher an examination-form from your doctor with the words 'I went to the movies yesterday, it's fake.'. It's not how you fight.

Of course you don't have to believe in either side, you could also just sit back and watch, see how it evolves. But you have to accept that for many people, the fun lies in the challenge of trying to disprove something that is presented to you. Or even in disproving the people who try to disprove.

[plzd0ntkeelme]

My interpretation is based on the events happening in the show as opposed to things being symbolic/illusion etc. Let people judge for themselves which make more sense, no need to claim which interpretation is more sensical and all, especially given the nature of this show.

Lastly if anything told or shown in the show can't be taken for what it is, then there will be nothing to discuss in the first place. Because any character or event, can simply not exist. If this is the approach you're going for then sure, I never said anything wrong with that.

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by Klashikari

And please do not worry, this kind of concept was already brought and expected by the VN players ever since Episode 1, it isn't related to our game knowledge from EP2-3-4.

Yes that's a thing that needs to be made clear.
When I finished Ep1 I had pretty much the same knowledge that an anime viewer has about witches and Beatrice, but in the end I reached the conclusion that witches didn't have anything to do with the murders.

My reasoning was as follow: Battler is the protagonist, Beatrice is the antagonist. Battler denies witches, Beatrice wants him to believe in witches at all cost. That alone to me was proof enough. What I thought is: The story can only progress in a way that in the end the witches will be denied and a human culprit will be found.
And you can't say that those elements that made me reach that conclusion aren't present in the anime, they are there, and quite evidently so.

There was another reason. This is a mystery story. The point of a mystery story is to find the solution of a mystery. However if you accept witches then where's the mystery? Everything was done by a witch, the culprit is a witch. No need to find a human culprit. And there isn't any problem either into explain how the murders were committed, because with magic you can find an easy answer.

So to sum it up. Our knowledge of future events has absolutely nothing to do with us claiming that Beatrice=culprit is not set in stone.

Of course I don't think it is possible for us to be 100% sure about what would we think now if we had only seen the anime. However we remember what we thought when we saw the end of Ep1 and we seem to agree that the anime isn't really that different in such regard.

And to further clarify it. You thinking that Beatrice exist and she is responsible for everything is not incorrect. And I think your opinion wouldn't be different if you read the VN. What we don't agree with is that the anime doesn't leave any other choice but to think that. This is what we are questioning, because we think the elements to think otherwise exist.

If you prerer to think Beatrice did it, it is your choice, not an inevitable conclusion.

[plzd0ntkeelme]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

Yes that's a thing that needs to be made clear.
When I finished Ep1 I had pretty much the same knowledge that an anime viewer has about witches and Beatrice, but in the end I reached the conclusion that witches didn't have anything to do with the murders.

My reasoning was as follow: Battler is the protagonist, Beatrice is the antagonist. Battler denies witches, Beatrice wants him to believe in witches at all cost. That alone to me was proof enough. What I thought is: The story can only progress in a way that in the end the witches will be denied and a human culprit will be found.
And you can't say that those elements that made me reach that conclusion aren't present in the anime, they are there, and quite evidently so.

There was another reason. This is a mystery story. The point of a mystery story is to find the solution of a mystery. However if you accept witches then where's the mystery? Everything was done by a witch, the culprit is a witch. No need to find a human culprit. And there isn't any problem either into explain how the murders were committed, because with magic you can find an easy answer.

So to sum it up. Our knowledge of future events has absolutely nothing to do with us claiming that Beatrice=culprit is not set in stone.

Of course I don't think it is possible for us to be 100% sure about what would we think now if we had only seen the anime. However we remember what we thought when we saw the end of Ep1 and we seem to agree that the anime isn't really that different in such regard.

And to further clarify it. You thinking that Beatrice exist and she is responsible for everything is not incorrect. And I think your opinion wouldn't be different if you read the VN. What we don't agree with is that the anime doesn't leave any other choice but to think that. This is what we are questioning, because we think the elements to think otherwise exist.

If you prerer to think Beatrice did it, it is your choice, not an inevitable conclusion.

Sigh, I guess I have to clarify once again that I believe the culprit is not Beatrice, but a human. You forgot to mention the fact that the killer tries so hard to conceal all the murders from the survivors should clarify that the killer is using some sort of tricks and are trying to hide them. Heck that's the basis of all detective stories. So no, I do believe that the culprit is a human.

[chounokoe]

And before you say again, that you never saif Beatrice was the culprit, that's not it either.
It's the fact that there are right now enough evidence to suspect that there was no witch present on Rokkenjima in those 2 days, at least not in direct contact with the crimes.
For her to be able to say what she said in the end, she would have had to watch the groups the entire time, which we should have seen, but there was no physical evidence that Beatrice herself was at the point of any crime, apart from the butterflies that Shannon, Kanon and Natsuhi encountered.

[Jan-Poo]

Yeah sorry I should have noticed that. But then when you say that magic exists in Rokkenjima, what kind of magic do you think is at work beside the golden butterflies?

[plzd0ntkeelme]

Originally Posted by chounokoe

And before you say again, that you never saif Beatrice was the culprit, that's not it either.
It's the fact that there are right now enough evidence to suspect that there was no witch present on Rokkenjima in those 2 days, at least not in direct contact with the crimes.
For her to be able to say what she said in the end, she would have had to watch the groups the entire time, which we should have seen, but there was no physical evidence that Beatrice herself was at the point of any crime, apart from the butterflies that Shannon, Kanon and Natsuhi encountered.

If you claim that those golden butterflies have completely nothing to do with Beatrice when characters in the show like Genji, Kanon, and Kumasawa believe otherwise, sure. That's your interpretation. Beatrice also doesn't need to watch the entire group all the time. By just listening to their discussion, she could hear about all the events unfolding. If you're saying that after the first night with Shannon, the golden butterflies just left the island, sure. I am not in the anime so obviously I can't find this physical evidence unless they're depicted in the show.

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

Yeah sorry I should have noticed that. But then when you say that magic exists in Rokkenjima, what kind of magic do you think is at work beside the golden butterflies?

I don't think we should discuss an anime character's magical capabilities. The possibility is limitless.

[chounokoe]

Originally Posted by plzd0ntkeelme

If you claim that those golden butterflies have completely nothing to do with Beatrice when characters in the show like Genji, Kanon, and Kumasawa believe otherwise, sure. That's your interpretation. Beatrice also doesn't need to watch the entire group all the time. By just listening to their discussion, she could hear about all the events unfolding. If you're saying that after the first night with Shannon, the golden butterflies just left the island, sure. I am not in the anime so obviously I can't find this physical evidence unless they're depicted in the show.

Many people claim they are to be connected to Beatrice, yes of course.
But I think that does not mean they have to be, because people's words can be false. That's not saying the anime is giving us false evidence, it is just that the characters, too, may not know any better.
It's like an old woman in a horror movie, screaming at a dropping painting 'It's the curse, it's the curse!', while in fact we can be sure it is a human culprit roaming the house and the painting has no connection whatsoever to the actual events.

I don't think we should discuss an anime character's magical capabilities. The possibility is limitless.

Why not, especially if it is one of the topics of the whole game. Namely the fact if said magical capabilities are as great as she claims to be.
Of course she could have endless magical powers, but she did not put forth any so far, except from warping around places.

[plzd0ntkeelme]

Originally Posted by chounokoe

Many people claim they are to be connected to Beatrice, yes of course.
But I think that does not mean they have to be, because people's words can be false. That's not saying the anime is giving us false evidence, it is just that the characters, too, may not know any better.
It's like an old woman in a horror movie, screaming at a dropping painting 'It's the curse, it's the curse!', while in fact we can be sure it is a human culprit roaming the house and the painting has no connection whatsoever to the actual events.



Why not, especially if it is one of the topics of the whole game. Namely the fact if said magical capabilities are as great as she claims to be.
Of course she could have endless magical powers, but she did not put forth any so far, except from warping around places.

It's just my interpretation based on the anime. So no, nothing is certain yet.

Since she has just warp around so far, how do you think I can determine the extent of her magical powers. I don't want to write a page of list of magics. Anyways, Detective shows are about solving the murder tricks, to me at least. If you wish to discuss the magics, then feel free to do so.

[orion]

I like the way that Battler implied that Beatrice was just like Shrodinger's cat. She can only exist if people believe in her. Thru out episode 1 we have been assaulted with events that "have to be done by a witch", seals that appear after events that had to be done by the witch and gold that came from the witch to make us believe in Beatrice's existence.

The events do not have to be caused by Beatrice. It's only the "belief" that Beatrice caused the events that solidifes her existence.


There's no mystery in saying that it's done by a witch. No fun for me. So I choose to believe in a human cause.

[Lio]

The tea party reminds me of Tsukihime an Fate's bad end lessons. I like that.

Well, MUCH better than the previous episodes. Less crazy Maria, less blatant inconsistencies between events and characters' reactions, and Natsuhi's death! I thought they presented that whole segment very well. Jessica's screaming, Battler's anger. I also enjoyed the interplay between Beatrice and Rika. Best episode yet imo.

Anybody else sensed the uncanny resemblance between Eva and Beatrice?

[ipernorris]

Guys are you trying to say Umineko will start having the parallel dimensions thingy? If it's so I think I'll drop this show because I don't want to see five episodes only to find out later they were just an illusion...

[Ithekro]

Personally I think the VN players are being baited into these debates right now. If someone wants to believe what they see in the anime, with no other knowledge or confirmations...let them. Don't try to direct them, or correct them unless they got something totally wrong that was shown in the anime. (like if they missed a sequence, skipped something, or didn't get a line of dialogue, kinds of things).

If it is a conceptual thing, let them think that way. They might be right. They might not be. If they want to believe this is a mystery, then it is a mystery. If they want to believe in witches, let them. Who can say they are wrong? At this point, no one really can....so don't get caught by the bait...or Beatrice will get you.

[Starlight]

Originally Posted by Lio

The tea party reminds me of Tsukihime an Fate's bad end lessons. I like that.

Well, MUCH better than the previous episodes. Less crazy Maria, less blatant inconsistencies between events and characters' reactions, and Natsuhi's death! I thought they presented that whole segment very well. Jessica's screaming, Battler's anger. I also enjoyed the interplay between Beatrice and Rika. Best episode yet imo.

Anybody else sensed the uncanny resemblance between Eva and Beatrice?

Heh heh, thats what I thought. I loved how Beatrice was the "Game Over". I felt like I was playing a vn again!

And it was Berncastel not Rika. Although she does sit like Rika.

[chounokoe]

Originally Posted by Ithekro

Personally I think the VN players are being baited into these debates right now. If someone wants to believe what they see in the anime, with no other knowledge or confirmations...let them. Don't try to direct them, or correct them unless they got something totally wrong that was shown in the anime. (like if they missed a sequence, skipped something, or didn't get a line of dialogue, kinds of things).

If it is a conceptual thing, let them think that way. They might be right. They might not be. If they want to believe this is a mystery, then it is a mystery. If they want to believe in witches, let them. Who can say they are wrong? At this point, no one really can....so don't get caught by the bait...or Beatrice will get you.

What we VN players posted on the last few pages, I wouldn't call it being baited into the discussion. More or less, of course, we also want to take part in the anime discussion, but the problem is that mostly only after a completed cycle, like now, do we have an immediate chance for that.
If you're, as a VN player, are able to refrain from posting future spoilers and just rely on events that are true in the context of one episode I think there's nothing wrong in participating.
As you said, nobody can say who's wrong or right, but therefore it is still fun to discuss especially because anime only viewers might have a totally different view of events.

Of course it would be wrong going around saying 'you're wrong, that's going to be disproven' but nobody did that for a while I think.
What we did was point out thoughts that we ourselves had back then after only reading one Episode...it's not wrong sharing different oppinions, is it?
And of course, rather farfetched sounding idead will attract more attention then one's who sound totally appropriate.

[orion]

Originally Posted by ipernorris

Guys are you trying to say Umineko will start having the parallel dimensions thingy? If it's so I think I'll drop this show because I don't want to see five episodes only to find out later they were just an illusion...

A witch hypothesis prob isn't going to be straight forward either. Schrodinger's cat has already popped up and we are only 5 episodes in.

Even if parallel dimensions is part of the explanation (Witches don't exist in Battler's plane of existence. Beatrice and Berncastel come from an alternate dimension to play. But there is some rule that limits their entrance into/interaction in Battler's plane hence the mass murder to "revive" Beatrice.), it should be interesting imo.

Edit:

When you think about it...

Spoiler for size:

It would explain a lot. If you have the gold in another dimension or time continuum and just transported it over, then it makes you look like some powerful deity and you can take advantage of the situation. It would also explain the size problem that I had with the gold bar. One dimension or time continuum has 1 standard size. The other uses another standard size.

Look at it from another perspective. If the Enterprise crew showed up in 1600, they would have been called witches.

This scenario could have existed because someone took advantage of a civilization's disparity in technology compared to their own.

[June 1983]

^Oi, that article about Schrodinger's cat you linked to explained superposition better for me than the VN did. XD That's just one of the things that I love about this series and Ryukishi. You can't approach this story in a simple way. It's always going to stretch your mind and make your brain hurt.

Just because we see "magic", it doesn't mean it exists. It means that we don't know whether the cat is alive or dead in the box right now. Therefore, both "magic" and "a human culprit" are technically real at the same time. Our job and Battler's job is to open up the box once and for all in order to find out what the truth is. (And even then, it might not be so simple.)