2010-04-16, 15:16 | Link #8201 |
Mystery buff
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Gone Fishin!
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What's weird is that in episode 5 she DOES have Sakutaro in 1986. We just get away from a scene a day before the conference (october 3rd) where the servants are talking. Rosa receives a call from Rudolf and the narration says Maria is playing with Sakutarou and something about Rosa promising to take her the Delsney land. Well anyway in episode 5 Sakutarou is not torn apart. He's "alive" on october 3rd 1986. So the diary could have lied, or was extremely biased towards Rosa during the event, and it showed us the results of how she overreacted.
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2010-04-16, 15:18 | Link #8202 | ||
Dea ex Kakera
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Sea of Fragments
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Quote:
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2010-04-16, 15:19 | Link #8203 | |
The Great Dine
Join Date: Feb 2009
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Actually they can't be - Rudolf tells Rosa on the phone that tomorrow everyone would meet at a tea shop in Ginza. They can't meet there on October 4th of course. All we know is that those scenes take place before the 1986 conference. Ange says the last time she saw Maria was in 1985 and she had Sakutaro that day. So Sakutaro was ripped up between 1985 and 1986. |
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2010-04-16, 15:29 | Link #8204 |
Mystery buff
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Gone Fishin!
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Well I assumed it was October 3rd because the servants were talking on the day before the conference just before that scene. It could be any time before the conference though if they were meeting somewhere. Somehow I doubt it was that long before the conference though because they were talking about money and it sounded urgent. Rosa didn't want Maria to be around to hear the conversation. She got mad at Rudolf for suggesting to bring her.
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2010-04-16, 15:37 | Link #8205 |
別にいいけど
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
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It was probably very close to the family conference, which means, if nothing is wrong, that Sakutaro's death was a very recent event at the time of the family conference of 1986.
That might also explain why Maria was still in Rosa's custody after what Rosa did in front of the social worker. Maybe even if they lived they wouldn't stay together much longer.
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2010-04-16, 15:49 | Link #8206 | ||
Back off, I'm a scientist
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: In a badly written story.
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Ep1 ends with Natsuhi duelling someone who 'claims to succeed the head of Ushiromiya family'. Considering that Natsuhi herself has no legitimate claim to this position, there are only a handful people who could make that claim at all, according to the Ushiromiya ranking ladder, which has to be the succession ladder, Rosa is right next after Rudolf, Eva is definitely dead, and Krauss has no reason to shoot his own wife who is nothing but extremely loyal. Without some sort of leverage, Rosa is almost certain to get shafted somehow when inheritance is to be divided, if not completely than at least substantially, but if she manages to get rid of everyone above her, her future -- and Maria's -- is set. The red about who is alive in the shed is worded such that it is open to interpretation in various ways, so we can't strictly assume that everyone in there is dead, as has been explained numerous times before. The question is who killed them and how did they get out from padlocked shed. But here, the other plan triggers.
The only thing I'm quite positive on in that sequence is Kinzo's corpse issue -- everything else does not rule out, say, Rudolf, and is a jumble of conjectures. But the biggest puzzle throughout the series which may point to Rosa is Maria herself:
There's some other minor things which I suspect connect Rosa and Shannon ten years ago, but I'll wait on formulating them until I can dig up anything else to support them. Quote:
Mind you, that doesn't stop Rosa from being just ONE of the possible people who actually think they are "Beatrice" on the board. |
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2010-04-16, 16:11 | Link #8207 | |
Homo Ludens
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Canada
Age: 34
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About the social worker bit... I always figured that, after what Rosa did, she had become too scared of her retaliation to report her.
Japan does not have and has never really had the same quality of child services the West does... we can see Higurashi for more examples of that. Quote:
It's not impossible that he handed Kanon the extra key when he told him to get the chain cutter. |
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2010-04-16, 16:16 | Link #8208 | |
Back off, I'm a scientist
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: In a badly written story.
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They obviously have some spare padlocks, possibly more than one, but they don't have a boxfull of them. The spare key could have been removed previously by anyone with access to the storehouse, which any servant had -- then, Genji's cooperation is not required. |
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2010-04-16, 16:22 | Link #8209 |
Senior Member
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If the killer removed the extra key in advance, he'd have to know which box to take a key from, or to take one from all of them. Also, I think padlocks usually are sold shrink-wrapped and somebody'd notice if it were unwrapped.
If Kanon needed to get into the shed to get the bolt cutters, why didn't he ask Natsuhi to unlock it? Also, in Episode 4, Battler finds the bolt cutters and hatchet in the boiler room.
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2010-04-16, 16:25 | Link #8210 | |
Back off, I'm a scientist
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: In a badly written story.
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Quote:
We just know he didn't. He rushes to the location that is unambiguously identified as the rose garden storehouse both through text and through used background images, grabs the cutter and runs. Either he did go there or the whole scene is a lie and then he's the accomplice anyway. |
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2010-04-17, 03:15 | Link #8211 |
Mystery buff
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Gone Fishin!
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You know I've been thinking about something. If we look the epitaph from a plot line murder standpoint the cause should be the key right? Battler's sin is against the "key". The only person I've heard being called the key though is Maria by Kyrie. Kyrie calls her the key to finding out about who Beatrice is. She's also called the key in other instances too, but I can't remember all of them. Maybe that's why I liked ijriims's idea for Maria being the person Battler sinned against.
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2010-04-17, 05:21 | Link #8212 | |
Back off, I'm a scientist
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: In a badly written story.
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Quote:
But there's an interesting quote from Meta-Beatrice that I found that may explain how it is possible for Battler to have sinned against Maria: Beatrice: "...Imagine it. When people are born, they don't know of fraud. ...They get it from somewhere. And so they learn it." This jumps out of the flow of the conversation about keeping promises as if it's put in there specially, and sounds to me like it references someone who was very young at the time. What if Battler was the one who promised to show magic to Maria... and didn't?
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2010-04-17, 05:48 | Link #8213 |
I want to believe.
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Pennsylvania
Age: 33
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With all this talk of Battler sinning against Maria, I could definitely see Battler promising Maria her dad would come back or something with magic. He then tries to convince Maria's father to come back, and he fails miserably. He estranges himself from the family for 6 years out of guilt (and also that Kyrie/Asumu drama).
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2010-04-17, 10:31 | Link #8215 | |
Back off, I'm a scientist
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: In a badly written story.
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Quote:
But there's just as many ways to break a promise as there are to make them. The usual interpretation of this promise being made to Shannon to come back for her does not involve a time limit, but isn't the moment when you sin by breaking a promise when you do not do something at the appointed time -- not when you promise to do so?
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2010-04-17, 10:58 | Link #8216 |
別にいいけど
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
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that's why the sin is the fact that Battler forgot the promise and not the fact that he made the promise.
Beatrice asks Battler why he abandoned the Ushiromiya name, and that means this somehow is connected to the sin. Plus Beatrice said "the fact you don't remember is your sin". Additionally in EP5 Battler asks Beatrice when did he ever made a promise to her and Beatrice reacts by saying she doesn't care anymore if she disappears. So there are many hints that Battler's sin was the fact that he forgot the promise he made.
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2010-04-17, 11:59 | Link #8217 | |
Back off, I'm a scientist
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: In a badly written story.
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Quote:
I did mention above that Rosa might know something more specific. In particular, I don't think I caught any other Ushiromiya or any of the spouses consciously calling servants 'furniture' -- the cousins generation doesn't like the very idea, and the sibling generation skirts the issue entirely. But Rosa uses it in the scene where she expels the servants a second time. Eye glazes over it because previously, much of Ep2 was devoted to expanding on the topic, but it doesn't seem happen anywhere else. And then she offers to drink coffee with Shannon, which sounds very much out of place.
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2010-04-17, 13:21 | Link #8218 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2010
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Quick Note About the Letter-Sender
There's a scene right after the part where Rosa asks everyone who gave Maria an umbrella. Kumasawa and Shannon meet up with Genji and Kanon and Kumasawa asks if any of them gave Maria an umbrella, to which they all say no. Scenes like this can't be taken at face value, but it suggests that Maria getting the letter is not a plan from the faction trying to make it look like Kinzo is still alive. (The fact that the letter hurts Krauss's position strengthens that assumption.) This doesn't preclude someone going rogue, but this goes against the plan to make Kinzo seem alive.
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2010-04-17, 13:34 | Link #8219 |
別にいいけど
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
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In Ep4 Maria says it was Kinzo who gave her the umbrella (or so it seems, can't be 100% sure about that).
Anyway let's suppose that Maria actually said that, since we know Kinzo couldn't possibly be the one who lent the umbrella to Maria, then it's possible that someone from the "Kinzo is still alive" faction asked her to say that. It is also quite possible that one or more persons among the "kinzo is still alive" faction are also part of the "Beatrice exists faction", although they probably do not completely overlap.
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2010-04-17, 13:43 | Link #8220 | |
The Great Dine
Join Date: Feb 2009
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Quote:
It makes me only think more that the person who gave her the letter is aware of Kinzo's death. Saying "Beatrice gave it" would have a similar disbelief effect, but everyone on the island doesn't believe in her being real (well, except a couple like Maria). Saying "Kinzo gave it" means that Kinzo would actually be alive and well, thus countering Kyrie's theory about him already being dead. |
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