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Old 2016-07-10, 19:52   Link #5821
germanturkey
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pobga was playing the defensive mid role even though they had sissoko and matuidi. he should have been the tip of the midfield triangle.

portugal had to play defensively, since their attacking talents aren't geared towards possession oriented goals. they're not spain or germany, and instead relied on ronaldo and nani to hit quick. with ronaldo off, they had to go even more defensive. i thought they did a great job opening up in the second half and in extra time. the introduction of eder really changed the game.

also, say what you want about ronaldo, but the guy went of and came back on twice before finally calling it quits. even if he was capable of 70%, he would have stayed on. it must have been crushing for him to go off. his dedication and commitment are things everyone who plays the game should look up to.
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Old 2016-07-10, 20:29   Link #5822
justavisitor
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Quote:
Originally Posted by germanturkey View Post

also, say what you want about ronaldo, but the guy went of and came back on twice before finally calling it quits. even if he was capable of 70%, he would have stayed on. it must have been crushing for him to go off. his dedication and commitment are things everyone who plays the game should look up to.
Can't agree more,and he comes back in extra time to encourage his teammates , good job as a captain
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Old 2016-07-10, 21:49   Link #5823
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RapidPotential View Post
2. Martial. He was brought on with so little time to make a difference. Why wasn't he up there as centre-forward instead of Gignac. He'd have offered much better mobility and he has the ability to get that half-yard for a shot. Giroud did a pretty good job considering his limited role as a target man, and Portugal did well to shut crosses in to him.

3. Pogba's defensive mentality. I don't know what was going on in his mind but if Ronaldo had gone off injured, it was his time to take charge and run the midfield. Instead he was getting all shy about it and gave a lot of respect (read: room in midfield) to Portugal. I don't like how he hollered at Matuidi, Sissoko and Gignac, because he didn't play well enough to warrant doing that. Hell, Sissoko was the French threat throughout the game. Pogba just proved why Ł100m for him is hyperbole and isn't worth the money. He hasn't proven to rise to occasions (CL Final 15 and now this).
The bit with Martial has been my biggest gripe with Deschamps on an attacking front. When I saw players like Payet, Griezmann, Martial and Coman emerging the way they did, the first thing that came to my mind was that any France manager has his front 4 right there. When you look at it, that front 4 should have had plenty of mobility and creativity to succeed against almost anybody. If the plan of using Giroud as a target man doesn't work, then the situation is begging for a more mobile player like Martial. Gignac reminds me of the wasteful Stéphane Guivarc'h, against whom I cursed a number of times for missing scoring chances in the 1998 World Cup.

Pogba... I think it's not his place to play as defensive midfielder. He puts in a shift when he can, but IMHO he's wasted as a sitter in front of the back 4. He should have been the box-to-box mid whereas Kanté and/or Matuidi fit better in tha CDM role. It goes to the main criticism people have against Deschamps about being too defensive when he uses 2 sitters in front of the Ds. Pogba is another Patrick Vieira, not another Claude Makélélé.

Quote:
Originally Posted by germanturkey View Post
also, say what you want about ronaldo, but the guy went of and came back on twice before finally calling it quits. even if he was capable of 70%, he would have stayed on. it must have been crushing for him to go off. his dedication and commitment are things everyone who plays the game should look up to.
Can't argue against that. He's a very proud athlete, and he does a good job as a captain until the bitter end. I have to tip my hat off to him for encouraging his teammates from the sidelines as he did.

Last edited by KiraYamatoFan; 2016-07-10 at 22:00.
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Old 2016-07-10, 22:31   Link #5824
justavisitor
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Originally Posted by KiraYamatoFan View Post
Pogba is another Patrick Vieira, not another Claude Makélélé.
Didn't Vieira play the exact same position as Pogba did in france back in 2000? I am pretty sure zidane played in the number 10 role, and vieira was partnered with makelele in front of D
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Old 2016-07-10, 23:24   Link #5825
KiraYamatoFan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by justavisitor View Post
Didn't Vieira play the exact same position as Pogba did in france back in 2000? I am pretty sure zidane played in the number 10 role, and vieira was partnered with makelele in front of D
Yeah, but even in those days, Vieira was given the OK to go box-to-box whereas there was either a Didier Deschamps or a Claude Makélélé whose job is dedicated into sitting in front of the Ds.
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Old 2016-07-11, 04:53   Link #5826
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Pogba and Vieira were similar yes, but their skill sets were quite different.

Vieira excelled in the defensive side. He had better tackling, was better at marking men and had a great playmaking sense despite playing box-to-box.

Pogba is more an excellent technician, a better dribbler than the former was, and his defensive side doesn't impress me. Don't get me wrong - he is a decent defender for his position, but he cannot impose himself on games. He also has more propensity to end up in wide areas than Vieira did.

And yes, I guess Ronaldo really is a champion at heart. He did his best to encourage his team and the belief that rubbed off on to them showed with the winning goal. I kind of disliked how he seemed to hog the trophy though. If he could take it home forever, he definitely would.
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Old 2016-07-11, 07:05   Link #5827
Kakurin
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Originally Posted by RapidPotential View Post
Football in the end, is about winning, even if you sucked and didn't seem to deserve it. Greece have proved it, and even Spain looked unconvincing winning 1-0 pretty much all the way to their world title in 2010, even if they did dominate games.
I'm a bit puzzled how you can be dominant but unconvincing? If you look at the score line, yes perhaps, but Spain throughout their reign were masters at keeping a clean sheet. They go up 1:0 on you and it's over. The issue is simply to abandon the idea of the tiki-taka as an offensive strategy but see it as a defensive strategy via possession to keep the ball away from the own goal. I've seen a lot of good defensive teams over the years, but Spain 2008-2012 is the best defensive team I've ever seen in international play. I don't remember them ever getting pressured in the final 15 minutes of a match when they led 1:0. They simply killed off the game by keeping the ball in their ranks the entire time. And when they lost it they immediately got it back with an intense pressing which they could maintain the entire match.

In the 19 matches of Euro 2008/2012 and World Cup 2010 they only allowed a grand total of 6 goals. Of which all came in the group stage. In the 10 knockout stage matches they kept a clean sheet every single time.
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Old 2016-07-11, 07:21   Link #5828
RapidPotential
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Originally Posted by Kakurin-san View Post
I'm a bit puzzled how you can be dominant but unconvincing? If you look at the score line, yes perhaps, but Spain throughout their reign were masters at keeping a clean sheet. They go up 1:0 on you and it's over. The issue is simply to abandon the idea of the tiki-taka as an offensive strategy but see it as a defensive strategy via possession to keep the ball away from the own goal. I've seen a lot of good defensive teams over the years, but Spain 2008-2012 is the best defensive team I've ever seen in international play. I don't remember them ever getting pressured in the final 15 minutes of a match when they led 1:0. They simply killed off the game by keeping the ball in their ranks the entire time. And when they lost it they immediately got it back with an intense pressing which they could maintain the entire match.

In the 19 matches of Euro 2008/2012 and World Cup 2010 they only allowed a grand total of 6 goals. Of which all came in the group stage. In the 10 knockout stage matches they kept a clean sheet every single time.
Yes, you can be dominant yet unconvincing. Example, Barcelona against Celtic a couple of seasons ago (2012) in the Champions League. 89-11 in possession, and still failed to win, with Celtic winning 2-1.

Tiki-taka is a primarily the game based around attacking football. They drag opponents out with their passing patterns, so it isn't a game focused on defence more than it is to retain the ball for future attacks. Again I'm only focusing on the World Cup win, which I was never impressed with, given the nature it came about (scraping to the win by 1-0s).

Their 2012 campaign was amazing in its right though, with one of the more one-sided finals in recent history.
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Old 2016-07-11, 07:50   Link #5829
Kakurin
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Originally Posted by RapidPotential View Post
Tiki-taka is a primarily the game based around attacking football. They drag opponents out with their passing patterns, so it isn't a game focused on defence more than it is to retain the ball for future attacks.
Here's where I disagree. The primary purpose of the short-passing tiki-taka is to retain possession. Hence the avoidance of long or diagonal passes which have the potential to gain much more ground in one sweep but are more prone to getting intercepted. The tiki-taka is designed to be very, very patient and wait for the defence to make a mistake. It philosophically is not much different compared to a catenaccio, parking-the-bus style game where you seal off the spaces for the attacking team and wait for a mistake which is to be exploited during a counter-attack.
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Old 2016-07-11, 08:05   Link #5830
RapidPotential
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Originally Posted by Kakurin-san View Post
Here's where I disagree. The primary purpose of the short-passing tiki-taka is to retain possession. Hence the avoidance of long or diagonal passes which have the potential to gain much more ground in one sweep but are more prone to getting intercepted. The tiki-taka is designed to be very, very patient and wait for the defence to make a mistake. It philosophically is not much different compared to a catenaccio, parking-the-bus style game where you seal off the spaces for the attacking team and wait for a mistake which is to be exploited during a counter-attack.
I guess we'll have to agree to disagree here. I always believe that tiki-taka was a patient game where attacking focus was always the key - hence why we see recycling of possession in deeper areas when the opposition defence closes gaps up, before using the deeper playmakers as a spring-board. It is noted that tiki-taka style has a propensity for quick one-touch passing to gain advantageous attacking positions with swift movement and exploiting gaps that open up with opposition pressing. Tiki-taka's philosophy is basically "start on the front foot and maintain that attacking pressure to force opponents back and into mistakes". I'd go as far as saying this attacking pressure is sustained by the high amount of sideways passing that goes with the interchanging of positions and passes.

One thing about the strategies; catenaccio is likened to a lock, whilst I view tiki-taka to be a "key" of sorts that unlocks the defence, so I always saw them on opposite spectrums, and hence less-reliance on counter-attacks with tiki-taka.
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Old 2016-07-11, 11:39   Link #5831
Blaat
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So let me get this straight we had a final between an unfancied underdog vs tournament favourites in front of their home crowd and the following things happened:
  • Underdog team start nervously with lots of bad passes while being under great pressure from the favourite team
  • Underdog team loses their star player early into the game
  • Injured star supposedly gives an inspirational speech at half time.
  • Underdog team barely survives the onslaught in the 2nd half
  • Underdog team brings in, below average striker, who has never scored a competitive match goal for the team.
  • Favourite team hit the post in the dying seconds of normal time.
  • Below average striker scores the winning goal in extra time.
  • Underdog team wins the game.

This sounds like your typical sport anime.
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Old 2016-07-12, 04:58   Link #5832
RapidPotential
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Just one thing to get off my chest though...

Remember Ronaldo blasting Iceland for their defensive mentality in the opening game?

Well, look back on the final and see if Portugal weren't playing counter-attacking football and just sitting back defending.

A wonderful player and great talent he is, but what a hypocrite. It is only okay if his team does the "defensive mentality" thing and wins. Imagine how much he'd have to say if Iceland went all the way and won it.
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Old 2016-07-12, 05:37   Link #5833
Sheba
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it's deliciously ironic when you remember who won and who lost, and how, in Euro 2004.
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Old 2016-07-12, 05:53   Link #5834
Kakurin
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Originally Posted by RapidPotential View Post
Remember Ronaldo blasting Iceland for their defensive mentality in the opening game?
He didn't blast them for a defensive mentality. He blasted them for a "small" mentality because they were celebrating a lucky draw like a big win.
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Old 2016-07-12, 07:03   Link #5835
RapidPotential
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Originally Posted by Kakurin-san View Post
He didn't blast them for a defensive mentality. He blasted them for a "small" mentality because they were celebrating a lucky draw like a big win.
Certainly a damning assessment from him, but note that Iceland had never been in a major tournament all their history; celebrating what was considered a huge moment for them was perfectly justified.

They weren't even fancied to score a goal against Portugal. Of course, Ronaldo being Ronaldo, having won things in his glittering career, chose the bitter way to describe the opponents. He didn't score in the game either, mind, so the salt was strong.

Moreover, one of his quotes was, "“They were just defend, defend, defend and playing on the counterattack."

Was that not what Portugal were doing in the final?
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Old 2016-07-12, 07:43   Link #5836
Kakurin
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Was Ronaldo petty? Sure he was. But the point he, is wasn't really hypocritical which is for what you are blasting him.
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Old 2016-07-12, 08:09   Link #5837
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You criticise other teams for doing so, and when your team does it it's okay. That is what I'm trying to put across. His statements come across as hypocritical when you look at how his team plays in the final.

This debate aside, now that Ronaldo's pretty much out for the rest of the year, I believe he might win the Ballon D'Or this year, unless Griezmann continues some electric form for the first half of the upcoming season.
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Old 2016-07-12, 13:50   Link #5838
Blaat
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Originally Posted by Sheba View Post
it's deliciously ironic when you remember who won and who lost, and how, in Euro 2004.
The only thing missing to complete the picture is Platini with a sad face handing over the trophy. I'm guessing for the first time Platini must have been happy he was banned from UEFA activities.
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Old 2016-08-09, 15:14   Link #5839
KiraYamatoFan
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Less than a month after the Euro, the club campaigns in Europe are about to start already. In the Community Shield on last Sunday, it was the first official match of Jose Mourinho's Manchester United team. It really didn't take long before Zlatan Ibrahimovic (free transfer from PSG) made his mark with a winning goal.



Among the transfer news, there have been plenty of note this summer: Paul Pogba (to Manchester United for a record 105 million euros), Henrikh Mkhitaryan (to Manchester United), N'Golo Kanté (to Chelsea), Granit Xhaka (to Arsenal), John Stones (to Manchester City), Ikkay Gündogan (to Manchester City), Victor Wanyama (to Tottenham), Sadio Mané (to Liverpool), Georginio Wijnaldum (to Liverpool), Fernando Llorente (to Swansea), Martin Skrtel (to Fenerbahce), Mats Hummels (to Bayern), Gonzalo Higuain (to Juventus), and André Gomes (to Barcelona) among others.

Regarding Arsenal, people have been talking about a number of questionable decisions made by Arsene Wenger on the transfer market in the last few years. Now that he is 68 and possibly hitting his last miles with the club, it will be interesting to see if he will go "all in" or rather maintain the statu quo.

Last edited by KiraYamatoFan; 2016-08-09 at 21:34.
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Old 2016-08-10, 02:27   Link #5840
Azuma Denton
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It took Mertesacker and Gabriel injury before he decides to finally serious about purchasing Mustafi.
So I highly doubt we will see a different approach...

Our Squad is strong enough...
Feels like new signing...
Judge me in May...
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