Umineko no Naku Koro ni - Episode 5 Discussion / Poll

[Jan-Poo]

Well okay that makes sense in a way. And now don't think that I know what the butterflies are, because no one does right now. However it's not like you don't have any element to make you think even overwhelming evidence should be questioned, you can decide to listen to Battler, he would tell you "why did you stop thinking?" as he did with his cousins. Everything can be explained with humans tricks. that's his firm standpoint. It is as if he was watching a David Copperfield show. No matter how incredible what he sees is. He can see David Copperfield flying and make whole building disappear, and it doesn't matter if he can't even get close to imagine how he did that. Magic doesn't exist so it's a trick.

Or you could follow Maria's thinking. Magic exists, it's just so easy to explain it with magic, why would you question that?

[plzd0ntkeelme]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

Well okay that makes sense in a way. And now don't think that I know what the butterflies are, because no one does right now. However it's not like you don't have any element to make you think even overwhelming evidence should be questioned, you can decide to listen to Battler, he would tell you "why did you stop thinking?" as he did with his cousins. Everything can be explained with humans tricks. that's his firm standpoint. It is as if he was watching a David Copperfield show. No matter how incredible what he sees is. He can see David Copperfield flying and make whole building disappear, and it doesn't matter if he can't even get close to imagine how he did that. Magic doesn't exist so it's a trick.

Or you could follow Maria's thinking. Magic exists, it's just so easy to explain it with magic, why would you question that?

Considering that Beatrice just pops out of nowhere in Bernkastel's house, and they both talk to each other about sorcery, I would have to conclude that magic exist in this anime universe.
btw anime is different than magic shows. Some anime will be scientific, some will be fantasy, it entirely depends on the writer's imagination and the viewer would have to interpret that. Whereas magician performance is designed to show magic tricks so of course you interpret anything that happen as merely that, tricks.

[Klashikari]

What you are actually mistaking is the fact that "the existence of witches" does NOT prove "witches exist where Battler comes from".
The thing is that: the first and second part of episode 1-5 are totally different in context, location. Therefore, the fact witches exist in a metaworld doesn't mean that witches existed in the world where 14 persons then the kids died.

If you had to take everything at its face value without taking note of the said context of each element, it will basically mean that you shouldn't even weave any theory, since magic solve anything without even any thought process.

Not wanting to make another shameless plug, but reading the demo or the analysis I've done should surely give a broad idea that the purgatory/metaworld has no effect on the real world (for the moment).

[June 1983]

By the way, that isn't Bern's "house". It's just another part of the meta-world, and part of Beato's domain. As Bernkastel mentions in her conversation with Beatrice, she's a "traveling witch".

[Pixelation]

The concept that belief can cause the things believed in to exist is common in fiction (the Terry Pratchett Discworld series completely revolves around this concept). If these are the rules, it seems Beatrice has two firm believers from day one (Kinzo and Maria) which could give her a some influence on reality. After that its just a matter of convincing others to do her killing until the belief is strong enough for her to manifest. At least that's my impression thus far...

[MeoTwister5]

Originally Posted by plzd0ntkeelme

Considering that Beatrice just pops out of nowhere in Bernkastel's house, and they both talk to each other about sorcery, I would have to conclude that magic exist in this anime universe.
btw anime is different than magic shows. Some anime will be scientific, some will be fantasy, it entirely depends on the writer's imagination and the viewer would have to interpret that. Whereas magician performance is designed to show magic tricks so of course you interpret anything that happen as merely that, tricks.

Correction. That house is... well techinically it's Beatrice's house when you consider just how much power she wields over this domain of hers. This house doesn't exist within the same physical frame of reference as Rokkenjima so the laws of physics and reality of Rokkenjima aren't necessarily the same as Beatrice's domain.

The main point of contention is whether magic exists on Rokkenjima's frame of reference alone, NOT Beatrice's house. Her house is not exactly in the same universe/kakera/whatever as Rokkenjima, and Battler's main point is that magic does not exist in HIS world, not Beatrice's. It's obvious that magic exists in her domain, but Rokkenjima is still in question, because this place isn't exactly her domain where she can do as she pleases.

[plzd0ntkeelme]

If that house is not even physical house but some kind of dimension, then more powerful these witches are because they can bend and shape dimension as they see fit.

I believe that magic exist during Battler's timeframe, 1. because the golden butterfly multiplies after shot, 2. there was Beatrice's laugh out of nowhere. If you're saying these are all illusions than the anime should reveal them later on. Take your time.

[chounokoe]

Originally Posted by plzd0ntkeelme

If that house is not even physical house but some kind of dimension, then more powerful these witches are because they can bend and shape dimension as they see fit.

I believe that magic exist during Battler's timeframe, 1. because the golden butterfly multiplies after shot, 2. there was Beatrice's laugh out of nowhere. If you're saying these are all illusions than the anime should reveal them later on. Take your time.

To add to the point of the others of Beatrice's 'house' being under different rules.
Saying that if they got magic there, they got magic everywhere would be like assuming that because we have got atmosphere for breathing on the earth it has to be on other planets to.
It is a common tool in many Sci-Fi stories to have alien visitors be regarded as gods, because they have powers that exceed those of the inhabitants by far, yet while those aliens are among their kind, they may be slightly stronger or weaker, but not of such different power that they can deffinitely say which one is superior.

Towards your 2nd point, nobody is saying you shouldn't believe in magic, it's a valid stance. But it is also common knowledge that those who believe in the mystery-solution to every murder will come and try to disprove you...that's what Umineko is starting and what is one of the fun points around here.
I have to give the point to you for the fact that those butterflies multiply after being shot. I could only argue that maybe they are all under some kind of drug or those butterflies are projections, but that wouldn't explain all circumstances, so that goes to you.
But, does a woman's laugh prove the existence of a witch? There could of course be someone with the voice of Beatrice on the island, there could be many explanations behind hearing that, that don't have to be instantly proving that Beatrice the Golden Witch exists on Rokkenjima.

[MeoTwister5]

They could be magic, they may not be magic.

That's our point entirely. You could believe that what you saw is the result of magic because they COULD be if you want to believe it as such, but what we mean is that these tings aren't exactly DEFINITIVE proofs of magic, which makes the definitive conclusion of the events being solely magic a very premature conclusion.

Likewise, you could also believe that what you saw were nothing more than illusions from a purely manmade source because they COULD be if one believes them as such, but there is also no DEFINITIVE proof that they were man mand, which also makes a conclusion of a man made source also premature.

In both cases, all you need is definitive proof that either belief is truth, but you cannot also disprove that either is false. You can only prove that the either is false if the opposition is true.

Thus, Probatio Diabolica.

[sainfate]

Originally Posted by Klashikari

Not wanting to make another shameless plug, but reading the demo or the analysis I've done should surely give a broad idea that the purgatory/metaworld has no effect on the real world (for the moment).

I pesonally took the time to read it and it was awesome, I bet you could have probably wrote more and expand on every little details but I am sure you must have been tired typing after a while. ;p

The main point of contention is whether magic exists on Rokkenjima's frame of reference alone, NOT Beatrice's house. Her house is not exactly in the same universe/kakera/whatever as Rokkenjima, and Battler's main point is that magic does not exist in HIS world, not Beatrice's. It's obvious that magic exists in her domain, but Rokkenjima is still in question, because this place isn't exactly her domain where she can do as she pleases.

I'm just going to recap what I understood since I am a "newbie" and only watched the anime and read what you guys have written.

So basically Beatrice exists, she is a witch and she has magical power, however she cannot fully exists in Battlers world/universe/kakera/dimension.

She can only show herself has a golden butterfly. (Just like "orbs" are interpreted to be the first manifestation of spirits/ghosts/angels etc.).

She wants everyone to believe in her, so she is happy to take the blame for the mass murders on the island, and she'll try to "hide" the truth and the real culprit.

Battler, being a firm non-magic believer, wants to prove that all those murders have been done by a human/s and can be explained.

He obviously run out of time in this arc, so I guess the next arc is some kind of Reset-Restart and keeping "memories" from what happens in the previous arc??? Is that Bern power? I suppose the events would be played slightly different since we will be in a different "kakera" ??? Am I getting this right, I might have confused other "newbies" but it makes sense in my head.

[MeoTwister5]

Originally Posted by sainfate

I pesonally took the time to read it and it was awesome, I bet you could have probably wrote more and expand on every little details but I am sure you must have been tired typing after a while. ;p




I'm just going to recap what I understood since I am a "newbie" and only watched the anime and read what you guys have written.

So basically Beatrice exists, she is a witch and she has magical power, however she cannot fully exists in Battlers world/universe/kakera/dimension.

She can only show herself has a golden butterfly. (Just like "orbs" are interpreted to be the first manifestation of spirits/ghosts/angels etc.).

She wants everyone to believe in her, so she is happy to take the blame for the mass murders on the island, and she'll try to "hide" the truth and the real culprit.

Battler, being a firm non-magic believer, wants to prove that all those murders have been done by a human/s and can be explained.

He obviously run out of time in this arc, so I guess the next arc is some kind of Reset-Restart and keeping "memories" from what happens in the previous arc??? Is that Bern power? I suppose the events would be played slightly different since we will be in a different "kakera" ??? Am I getting this right, I might have confused other "newbies" but it makes sense in my head.

Edit - Nevermind I'll answer you in PM.

[plzd0ntkeelme]

Originally Posted by chounokoe

To add to the point of the others of Beatrice's 'house' being under different rules.
Saying that if they got magic there, they got magic everywhere would be like assuming that because we have got atmosphere for breathing on the earth it has to be on other planets to.
It is a common tool in many Sci-Fi stories to have alien visitors be regarded as gods, because they have powers that exceed those of the inhabitants by far, yet while those aliens are among their kind, they may be slightly stronger or weaker, but not of such different power that they can deffinitely say which one is superior.

Towards your 2nd point, nobody is saying you shouldn't believe in magic, it's a valid stance. But it is also common knowledge that those who believe in the mystery-solution to every murder will come and try to disprove you...that's what Umineko is starting and what is one of the fun points around here.
I have to give the point to you for the fact that those butterflies multiply after being shot. I could only argue that maybe they are all under some kind of drug or those butterflies are projections, but that wouldn't explain all circumstances, so that goes to you.
But, does a woman's laugh prove the existence of a witch? There could of course be someone with the voice of Beatrice on the island, there could be many explanations behind hearing that, that don't have to be instantly proving that Beatrice the Golden Witch exists on Rokkenjima.

Well Beatrice is said to possess power to kill endlessly, and Bernkastel to make miracle as long the situation isn't zero probablility. If these don't apply to Battler and others in the "real world", then those are nothing but talks.

That laugh comes together with those butterflies. I wouldn't take them as separate source. And we wouldn't have discussion in the first place if they are all already proven wouldn't it.

[maximilianjenus]

Originally Posted by Sute443

Then why the whole ritual to revive the witch? That's a pretty important part of the Epitaph, you know. Ninth Twilight and all that.

The adutls in umineko (I am quite sure they mentioned that at least once in the anime) think the Epitaph is just a riddle and whoever solves it keeps the gold/ becomes the new head. It's not exclusive to reviving the witch, if you don't believe in magic you can take the same aproach as the adults and think of it as a simple riddle.

Originally Posted by Pixelation

The concept that belief can cause the things believed in to exist is common in fiction (the Terry Pratchett Discworld series completely revolves around this concept). If these are the rules, it seems Beatrice has two firm believers from day one (Kinzo and Maria) which could give her a some influence on reality. After that its just a matter of convincing others to do her killing until the belief is strong enough for her to manifest. At least that's my impression thus far...

Actually, some physics theories also believe on that.

[Jan-Poo]

really? I think only parapsychologists think the belief can alter reality. In quantum physic you can find theories that claim "observation" can alter reality, not belief.

[sainfate]

It would be interesting to know what people think the culprit is after watching the first Arc ... Beatrice or the other 18 people... Maybe someone that can could make a new poll and thread about this.

[Klashikari]

Originally Posted by plzd0ntkeelme

Well Beatrice is said to possess power to kill endlessly, and Bernkastel to make miracle as long the situation isn't zero probablility. If these don't apply to Battler and others in the "real world", then those are nothing but talks.

Absolutely not.
Let's take the example of a chessboard: both players have characteristic habits like Player A always wait for X turn to move their queen, while player B always try to dispatch their rook.
Now, if they have a specific trait, that absolutely won't change the chessboard itself, since there are rules applied to it.

Therefore, it is the same: regardless if Beatrice and Bernkastel powers are real or not, the fact it will set up the "game" doesn't mean their powers will go beyond the scope of creating the game board.
Consequently, you cannot declare that they can do whatever they like, otherwise the first game board wouldn't have so many inconsistencies for the Fantasy side.

[chounokoe]

Originally Posted by plzd0ntkeelme

Well Beatrice is said to possess power to kill endlessly, and Bernkastel to make miracle as long the situation isn't zero probablility. If these don't apply to Battler and others in the "real world", then those are nothing but talks.

Not that I think Klashi's answer wasn't suficient, I just thought it was a very high level comparison I thought of adding a more plain one.
[@Klashi: Hope your not offended...and I hope I didn't misunderstand your example myself)

Let's assume I would live on the moon and I can jump 5 meter into the air there.
Would you believe me if I told you I can do the same on earth?

You're not only bound by your own powers, you're also bound by your sorroundings.

[plzd0ntkeelme]

Sigh, again I never suggest anywhere that the witches are the killer. My post was simply about their existence. That's all.

If there are exceptions to their powers, like the location of effectiveness, then the anime did not mention it. The anime simply mention Beatrice can kill an individual endlessly, Bern can make miracle happen as long as no zero probability. That's all that the anime says, NO exception like earth or moon whatever. Either you listen to the show or calling those witches liars.

[Klashikari]

And this is the reason why I and several people mentioned the following statement:

What you are actually mistaking is the fact that "the existence of witches" does NOT prove "witches exist where Battler comes from".

Again, regardless if Beatrice is the culprit or not, her existence doesn't mean she exists in the said "real world", that's all. This is also why I and chounokoe demonstrated that their powers can be real without being directly applied to Battler etc.
We are not declaring elements are false, but you are interpreting in one dimensional way about what they can do, despite it was never stated they will barge in there and change the whole course of the plot.

The anime doesn't have to be explicit, heck the VN didn't even explain what was the real meaning of "endless" and "miracles" magic at this point of Ep1. This was however the interpretation that made sense the most, if you take the approach of "witches exist outside of Battler's kakera". That's all.

This is why your vision is attracting response, because you are taking everything presented to you to the very first degree, despite there is a much more meaningful possibility behind elements and facts the story had unfolded so far.
This is why, many of us believe it is rather too bad to stop the thought process, just because there is a mere "display of magic" without any real proof it is a definite setup to the whole "concept" of the world of Umineko.

And please do not worry, this kind of concept was already brought and expected by the VN players ever since Episode 1, it isn't related to our game knowledge from EP2-3-4.

[MarthX]

You should think the way you want to think. If you believe their power applies to all worlds then think that. You should always be the one to think for yourself. These are all anti-fantasy arguments anyway. That's only one side of the spectrum.