Toradora! - Episode 23 Discussion / Poll

[wistfulloner]

Originally Posted by aldw

If anything Minori behaviour over those episodes just disappointed me, I mean passive-aggressively trying to get Taiga and Ryuji together by ignoring Ryuji really is no better than Taiga actively trying to push Ryuji and Minori together. Real life couples date first to see if they click, if it works that's great, if it doesn't move they onto someone else. If the people in this story actually tried to date first they wouldn't have to have stupid arguments over 'who's better for who'.

Ya know, these arguments might be caused by our knowing how the anime will end, but the studio still slowly trying to slowly feed us that ending. Something might be painfully obvious to us, but it might not be to the directors who don't come to these forums.

[Waking_Dreamer]

Originally Posted by aldw

If anything Minori behaviour over those episodes just disappointed me, I mean passive-aggressively trying to get Taiga and Ryuji together by ignoring Ryuji really is no better than Taiga actively trying to push Ryuji and Minori together. Real life couples date first to see if they click, if it works that's great, if it doesn't move they onto someone else. If the people in this story actually tried to date first they wouldn't have to have stupid arguments over 'who's better for who'.

You know what would be interesting...If instead of the 3/4 of the series being hush - hush about their true feelings, how about each of the girls ask out Ryuji when they actually realise they have feelings for him.

Dating doesn't mean being a solid couple. That way we get to see the dynamics of RyujiXMinorin AND RyujixAmi in the actual series and hopefully less of those under-your-breath remarks and those hateful/sideways glances.

I mean thats the only fair way I think.

[frubam]

Originally Posted by Proto

Hmm... I'm kinda surprised at people saying that Minori acted out of character this episode. Haven't we known for more than 10 EP's that Minori is an internal mass of contradictions and self lies waiting to explode? (e.g. this episode).

You're saying she's a yandere ?

[MeoTwister5]

Actually I don't think Kushieda acted OOC; if anything, her explosive anger near the end is definitive proof of her paradoxical personality that has already been evident about halfway through the season. At least NOW it comes into full view just how conflicted she is in her hypocrisy.

[Bonta Kun]

ho ho just spotted Yuri-chans skill with the pen!

haven't been able to do that for some time, stopped doing that after I left school

[houkoholic]

Originally Posted by Proto

Hmm... I'm kinda surprised at people saying that Minori acted out of character this episode. Haven't we known for more than 10 EP's that Minori is an internal mass of contradictions and self lies waiting to explode? (e.g. this episode).

People are assuming she is conflicted/hypocrite only because they assume that EVERYONE wants romance to be the top priority in their life. To that you should take Minorin's quote of the episode to heart "No one but myself can decide my happiness for me".

Minorin has bigger goals in her life than romance. She already rejected Ryuji and decided she doesn't want romance with him because
1) she has other goals which are more important to her tha love currently, which she wants to achieve (hint: it's related to her working so many part time jobs, which should be revealed next ep)
2) she might like Ryuji, but she doesn't want people to tell her that "YOU MUST LOVE HIM BACK AND BE A COUPLE BECAUSE WE SAID SO", plus dictating to her that romance with Ryuji=happiness
3) Minorin knows Taiga loves Ryuji much more than she does, and Taiga has nothing else in her life to live for (Taiga only changed her own life style for the sake of hooking up Ryuji/Minorin, otherwise she would not do so), plus refer to 1) which makes Minorin not really sacraficing her own happiness either, unlike Taiga.

Minorin is not contradicting herself - because romance is not her top priority in life right now.

[MeoTwister5]

"No one but myself can decide my happiness for me"

This is precisely why I find her actions paradoxical and almost a hypocrisy, due to the fact that while she adheres to this philosophy on herself, she finds it unnecessary to practice it on other people. The issue isn't anymore whether she seeks romance or not because she clearly doesn't, people are labelling her as a walking paradox for the simple fact that she does not practice what she preaches.

I've already posted her contradicting actions because for me, quite frankly, I find it again a hypocrisy to demand that other people not try to give her her happiness when she clearly wishes to do that for herself, but conveniently finds it necessary to push Ryuuji and Taiga together on the guise that "they will be happy" if they do. While it does add depth to her character, it of course alters my view on a character that's almost being self-righteous. Whether or not it's the best for Ryuuji and Taiga again isn't the point, the point is that Kushieda's character being blatantly obvious that she applies her own philosophy only to herself and disregards the need to practice it upon other people.

[houkoholic]

Originally Posted by MeoTwister5

but conveniently finds it necessary to push Ryuuji and Taiga together

There's you problem right there - she never tried to do such things.

Minorin hasn't done anything to try to push Taiga/Ryuji together, she's only asking them to be truly honest with their deepest feelings. Whereas Taiga always tried to create situations for them to get together despite what Taiga herself and Minorin feels.

Minorin is asking Taiga to come clean with her deepest feelings (Taiga has nothing to live for other than Ryuji). Minorin already has come clean with hers - she doesn't need romance to be happy, she decided to rejected Ryuji because it is not what she lives for, NOT because she is wanting to push Taiga and Ryuji together, she is being honest, unlike Taiga and Ryuji where their lifes are completely build around each other yet they still deny it, which everyone else in their group can see.

You're still missing the difference in that Minorin doesn't need romance in her life now and this is not what she seeks in life, whereas Taiga/Ryuji's life completely breaks down if they don't confess to each other.

[Nenkitsune]

I don't really know how she's being a hypocrite or anything. she isn't trying to push Ryuuji and Taiga together, she's just sick of the both of them denying the very obvious fact that they like each other. she's sick of Taiga constantly trying to push ryuuji onto her, knowing that Taiga is in love with Ryuuji.

she knows that the BOTH of them are in love with each other, and is sick and tired of them trying to hide and lie about those feelings.

or something like that.


aww, houkoholic worded it better for me.

Just think back to some of the previous episodes.
Minori is FINE without being anywhere near Ryuuji
Taiga breaks down and turns into a MESS at the thought of not being near ryuuji (x-mas episode)
Ryuuji likes Minori, but when Taiga isn't around, he zones out and crap (or something like that) and when she comes back the only thing he can think is that being with her is best.

Just from that it's very obvious which combination would be the only one that would let everyone still be happy.

[MeoTwister5]

Originally Posted by houkoholic

There's you problem right there - she never tried to do such things.

Minorin hasn't done anything to try to push Taiga/Ryuji together, she's only asking them to be truly honest with their deepest feelings. Whereas Taiga always tried to create situations for them to get together despite what Taiga herself and Minorin feels.

Minorin is asking Taiga to come clean with her deepest feelings (Taiga has nothing to live for other than Ryuji). Minorin already has come clean with hers - she doesn't need romance to be happy, she decided to rejected Ryuji because it is not what she lives for, NOT because she is wanting to push Taiga and Ryuji together, she is being honest, unlike Taiga and Ryuji where their lifes are completely build around each other yet they still deny it, which everyone else in their group can see.

You're still missing the difference in that Minorin doesn't need romance in her life now and this is not what she seeks in life, whereas Taiga/Ryuji's life completely breaks down if they don't confess to each other.

And for me, merely trying to find ways alongside asking them to be honest with their feelings is itself trying to mediate. Fact is, by confronting Taiga here, pinning her to the wall and practically going apeshit because Taiga still refuses to be honest even though Kushieda was being as cautious enough as it is screams meddling. Then she calls Ryuuji a lier and gets angry at him for also not being honest. If that's not meddling I don't know what is, and I've seen too much of that to last me a lifetime.

I'm not missing the point that she doesn't need romance to live life happily because it's obvious enough she can live without it just fine, my point being if you didn't see it is that she again isn't practicing what she preaches when she deals with other people. Fine if you find it annoying and exasperating when people are meddling into your personal affairs, but when people see this, they expect you to practice the same philosophy onto others, which she isn't doing.

Again, it's not a problem of whether or not she wants romance, it's whether or not she even treats people the same way she wants to be treated. Do unto others is it not?

[Nenkitsune]

There is such a thing as a breaking point though.

There's only so much Minori could take before she got sick of how much Taiga was trying to meddle in her love life, while also knowing that Taiga is being completely untrue to herself, before she finally snapped at the both of them for doing nothing but lying to themselves this entire time and trying to get into her personal life too much.

and Treating people the way you want to be treated.

Taiga has been trying to push into Minori's personal life from the VERY START. Minori put up with it FROM THE VERY BEGINNING. she finally couldn't stand it anymore and snapped. This isn't a problem of Minori not treating people the way she wants to be treated, it's actually QUITE THE OPPOSITE.

[houkoholic]

Originally Posted by MeoTwister5

Fine if you find it annoying and exasperating when people are meddling into your personal affairs, but when people see this, they expect you to practice the same philosophy onto others, which she isn't doing.

She's not annoyed that people are meddling into her personal affairs. Minroin is annoyed that people is telling her that she is not honest and burrying her feelings, and that she must go with Ryuji to be truly happy, that is the difference.

Thing is she *is* being honest - her feeling is that she doesn't need romance to be happy because that's not what she seeks, and she doesn't need help to be with Ryuji. The opposite is not true for Taiga - she knows Taiga is not going to be happy without Ryuji but is burrying her true feelings. Minorin is not being hypocritic or contradictory - Minorin came clean, Taiga has not.

Again, it's not a problem of whether or not she wants romance, it's whether or not she even treats people the same way she wants to be treated. Do unto others is it not?

Because she is so not doing what Taiga is doing?

[physics223]

Originally Posted by MeoTwister5

And for me, merely trying to find ways alongside asking them to be honest with their feelings is itself trying to mediate. Fact is, by confronting Taiga here, pinning her to the wall and practically going apeshit because Taiga still refuses to be honest even though Kushieda was being as cautious enough as it is screams meddling. Then she calls Ryuuji a lier and gets angry at him for also not being honest. If that's not meddling I don't know what is, and I've seen too much of that to last me a lifetime.

I'm not missing the point that she doesn't need romance to live life happily because it's obvious enough she can live without it just fine, my point being if you didn't see it is that she again isn't practicing what she preaches when she deals with other people. Fine if you find it annoying and exasperating when people are meddling into your personal affairs, but when people see this, they expect you to practice the same philosophy onto others, which she isn't doing.

Again, it's not a problem of whether or not she wants romance, it's whether or not she even treats people the same way she wants to be treated. Do unto others is it not?

Fuck yes.

I thought this episode was quite weak. For all my gushing about it, I hope Toradora doesn't fall into pieces, because I was ready to place it as among my top anime of all time.

[wistfulloner]

Originally Posted by physics223

I thought this episode was quite weak. For all my gushing about it, I hope Toradora doesn't fall into pieces, because I was ready to place it as among my top anime of all time.

It might not win a "Best Anime" Award, but it most definitely will win an award for "Best Anime Under Constrained Circumstances", if there ever is one.

[MeoTwister5]

Originally Posted by houkoholic

She's not annoyed that people are meddling into her personal affairs. Minroin is annoyed that people is telling her that she is not honest and burrying her feelings, and that she must go with Ryuji to be truly happy, that is the difference.

Thing is she *is* being honest - her feeling is that she doesn't need romance to be happy because that's not what she seeks, and she doesn't need help to be with Ryuji. The opposite is not true for Taiga - she knows Taiga is not going to be happy without Ryuji but is burrying her true feelings. Minorin is not being hypocritic or contradictory - Minorin came clean, Taiga has not.



Because she is so not doing what Taiga is doing?

Uh... isn't the fact that people are telling her what she is, isn't, should and should not be doing being essentially the same as people meddling into her personal affairs? I don't see a difference, and I'm sure most other viewers won't see a difference either.

Again you're not even discussing the same issue with me. It's not whether or not she's being honest or coming clean, because I agree that she is, it's whether or not she's doing unto others what she wants done to herself. They are her friends, and for all their attempts to tell her what to do, I'd assume they think they're acting out on her best interest, which Kushieda believes is unnecessary. In the same way, again, she thinks it's best if Ryuuji and Taiga end up together, and acts accordingly. THAT'S where I find the hypocrisy. Even if she KNOWS 100% that it's the best thing for Taiga and Ryuuji to be together, the fact still remains that she's trying to get them to be honest with each other, an act that is itself still meddling.

[b0nyb0y]

I think Taiga x Ryuji relationship reached this stage because they both have been playing house for too long. They tried to do what's best for each other, and stick to such scenario, without trying to see what's actually happening (i.e., how they actually feel toward each other).

Before, this "house playing" was limited to just two of them. But now they kind of made all other people around them (Minorin, Kitamura, Ami) to play along with it. This is of course ain't gonna happen, especially when it can seen that neither of them (Taiga, Ryuji) are truly happy with it. So, even though all this pretending is troublesome to the rest of the crew, it's them (Taiga & Ryuji) who ended up getting hurt the most (just as Ami foreshadowed back in ep. 18).

I guess what I'm trying to say is, the current relationship of Taiga and Ryuji has its own problems. And the solution to it can come later and be anything Taiga and Ryuji want it to be. But in order to do that both of them just have to accept the reality first. There is no way in hell to solve it if they just continue with this house playing. They can't continue and expect other people to play along with it forever. Not when Ryuji's still oblivious to his own feelings, while Taiga is ready to break down any minute.

You may feel that all three of them (esp. Minorin) were invading into their affair, and everything should be all up to Taiga and Ryuji themselves. But from another POV, all three of them are already involved, as they were dragged into this house playing quite some time ago.

[Nukerjsr]

Originally Posted by MeoTwister5

And for me, merely trying to find ways alongside asking them to be honest with their feelings is itself trying to mediate. Fact is, by confronting Taiga here, pinning her to the wall and practically going apeshit because Taiga still refuses to be honest even though Kushieda was being as cautious enough as it is screams meddling. Then she calls Ryuuji a lier and gets angry at him for also not being honest. If that's not meddling I don't know what is, and I've seen too much of that to last me a lifetime.

I'm not missing the point that she doesn't need romance to live life happily because it's obvious enough she can live without it just fine, my point being if you didn't see it is that she again isn't practicing what she preaches when she deals with other people. Fine if you find it annoying and exasperating when people are meddling into your personal affairs, but when people see this, they expect you to practice the same philosophy onto others, which she isn't doing.

Again, it's not a problem of whether or not she wants romance, it's whether or not she even treats people the same way she wants to be treated. Do unto others is it not?

Exactly. That's why I didn't like parts of this episode.

Let's think about this from a standpoint. She always has viewed her friendship with Taiga above anything. Despite that fact that Taiga wants to help her out and vice-versa, Minori will not accept the help that comes her way. She automatically believes that Ryuuji being with Taiga is the right way to go, no matter what happens.

While most of us can agree that Taiga and Ryuuji should be together, why is it necessary for Minori to act this way and create this whole scenario of having the two confess to each other? Imagine your best friend forcing you against the wall and spilling your guts, just because HE/SHE believes it's the best thing to do.

You aren't really supporting the "I want to be Taiga's friend" aspect. And if she was willing to sacrifice her own friendship in the first place...what was the point of even hanging around Taiga in the first place?

A lot of the faults from Minori's actions is the fact that she has problems, but chooses not to acknowledge them. Ami and Taiga have comes to terms with their problems and understand them. Minori has not and continues to preach hypocritical values. Several things need to be mentioned about Minori's history in the last two episodes for me to have sympathy for her.

[MeoTwister5]

I actually liked this episode to some degree because it finally showed exactly what's wrong with Minorin, despite what ever claims to emotional stability she claims to have.

[typhonsentra]

Huh? She was right to get angry with Ryuuji. She just found out that he was purposely ignoring her best friend's feelings for him. She loves Taiga and values her friendship with her above most everything else besides perhaps her secret aspirations. There is no "Emotional Instability", she knows exactly what she did and it makes since to me why she'd do it.

[kk2extreme]

i got my new found respect for haruta