[Manga] Naruto Chapter 602 Discussion Thread

[Jpmartinez]

Originally Posted by SeanQ

Chicks...they are the cause of all evil - Obito.

I think it be better to say they are trigger for man to cause evil rather than they being evil themselves.

I wonder how Rin really died.....The only way I see Obito changing so drastically after the dead of Rin is if Obito himself killed her, of course not knowing it was her. Something like kabuto and his step mother... If is not that then definitey kishi will have to explain.

[itachi-san314]

Originally Posted by james0246

Free will isn't really a counter-argument to the moon's eye plan. In fact, arguably free will is the entire reason the moon's eye plan was created in the first place.

i dont follow what you're saying. the moon's eye plan's purpose is to take away free will so that there will be no more suffering

Originally Posted by b1gdawg

There's gotta be more to it, Madara must have saved him, but how? He's old and can't detach from that thing. His powers must be low.

hopefully when zetsu gets introduced this whole rescue of obito will make more sense. one of things i'm most curious about is what/who zetsu actually is. of course, i'm also a bit hesitant to want to know since his story can easily be horrible based on how complex a character he already is

This chapter 90% revealed that Madara gave Nagato the rinnegan not Tobi, but why would Tobi say he gave Nagato the rinnegan? There was no reason for him to lie to Konan since he was about to kill her anyway. There must be part of Madara inside Obito.

i think it's more like 100%. and the explanation is 1 of 2 things. either obito was completely in character as madara (like groucho marx or borat or the magician Teller who just never break character no matter what the situation is) or madara put some of his chakra in obito at some point so that tobi can officially say that he is indeed madara and not be lying. i think the latter makes more sense and is what i've thought all along, but i'm not strongly opposed to the first option given a good enough reason for obito to mentally become madara

Now i want to know where he got his left sharingan and why not the right one too. Why would he only take 1 eye and not both.

yea that should be interesting. taking 1 eye raises more questions than 2 for sure. is it possible he put the other in zetsu and transformed it into something else. black zetsu's eye doesn't look like a sharingan but it is certainly strange and on the side that madara is missing right now

[Nintendo]

Im going to assume and this is a big assume that madara implanted a memory inside of nagato that when he came to a certain age or a certain emotional state the memory would have triggered. so thats pretty cool if that is actually the case.

I also say obito seems to want to leave to help is friends, so yeah, hes not listening to madara about loss and whatnot so when rin dies on a mission and obito finds out, he no doubt comes to terms with winners and losers and agrees to side with madara.

[milan kyuubi]

Obito finding Madara's hideout is the same as Suigetsu and Jugo finding Orochimaru's secret room.

Originally Posted by Jpmartinez

Well we don't know what kind of complicated plan madara could have created in all the years being alive. He probably gave the eyes to nagato then use the sharigan on some couple leaf ninjas to kill his parents. Then he had zetsu watch over him and make sure he didn't die and from there on looked for another uchiha (Obito) and brainwash him to carry the rest of the plan. So as you see there isn't a plot hole here the possibilities are infinite. Also think about it, its too much of a coincidence that Obito fell right under madaras secret cave. Seen madara beat five kages while he repeated it was futile gives me the impression he knows better than to play the dice. He wouldn't risk unless he knows the outcome.

That's all speculation. Which I agree we all do since we don't know the full story yet. Just wanted to point this... If Zetsu was indeed watching over Nagato. Then he did a poor job at it. Since Nagato was nearly killed many times (starvation, sanin battle etc etc).

[james0246]

Originally Posted by itachi-san314

i dont follow what you're saying. the moon's eye plan's purpose is to take away free will so that there will be no more suffering

The moons eye plan was created because Madara and Obito (and Nagato, though he had a different plan) all felt that free will (as an expression of a force seeking to dominate others) was destroying the world. Consequently, free will by itself is not the counter-argument to the moons eye plan, rather the moons eye plan was the counter-argument against free will run rampant over the land.

[RDF2050]

Originally Posted by Jpmartinez

I think it be better to say they are trigger for man to cause evil rather than they being evil themselves.

I wonder how Rin really died.....The only way I see Obito changing so drastically after the dead of Rin is if Obito himself killed her, of course not knowing it was her. Something like kabuto and his step mother... If is not that then definitey kishi will have to explain.

This is what I believe how she died. I am sure Madara is responsible for this to happen.

[Ero-Senn1n]

Originally Posted by b1gdawg

I don't really like how Obito got to where he is. Madara's secret lair just happened to be under that battle ground? There's gotta be more to it,

In this manga everybody has faith in events that are extremely unlikely to happen. Minato instead of helping Naruto grow up and the village against Tobi chose to die, having faith that Tobi will not return right after he and Kushina died and take baby Naruto away to get back the kyuubi. Itachi didn't rush out to save Sasuke from Orochimaru, he also didn't rush to kill Deidara when Deidara decided to go after Sasuke, he believed that Sasuke will survive and get stronger. Itachi also amaterasued Sasuke believing that Sasuke will survive that. Tsunade sent out 5 genins to save Sasuke even if she knew well that the enemy is Orochimaru, who almost destroyed Konoha. Jiraiya threw Naruto into the abyss believing that Naruto will then be able to summon gamabunta and survive. Genins are being sent into the forest of death where many of them almost die, but somehow they don't die. Naruto can go on missions even if the hokage and the village knows that other villages and missing ninja would like to capture the strongest demon. Kurenai, Asuma, Kakashi and Gai believe that they have a chance against a guy who killed the legendary Uchiha clan by himself when he was 13 years old (they don't know that Tobi helped him). We could go on forever with these examples So why couldn't Madara just have faith that his great plan that contains some extremely risky elements cannot succeed?

[b1gdawg]

Originally Posted by SuperRareTreeCat

Did anyone else notice on Page 15 the Zetsu figure hanging from the Mazo? no left arm but had a right arm with the spiral face which also looks to be adult sized, pretty good foreshadowing there. Awesome chapter yet again.

Madara said he had given his eyes away, doesn't confirm he gave them away to Nagato. Although he probably did seeing as where this is headed but still not confirmed as to who.

We get to see Obito's clumsy comedic side, that was funny. Shows he's still himself at that point. And how Madara said that he was "Between this and the other world" in an underground passage, could be the other dimension that Obito is now stuck in also. Only really possibility i see to this is that Obito having activated his sharingan somehow was able to use the space time to the other dimension, which would explain why the rock was there considering he was probably touching it. Just a thought, although I don't thing at all that there would be an underground passage exactly where he was crushed.



1. Read above for first part . 2. Then Tobi(Obito) was using Madara as an alias and saying what he would say, and yeah I don't see a reason to lie either but don't think Madara is in there. 3. Page 17 Madara says he had an eye implanted afterwards but would like to have a few extras.

I doubt that it's another dimension, Madara would have had to transport that huge Mazou thing with Hashriama's DNA

And come on, Obito just unlocked his Sharingan, then he uses his space time Ninjutsu a few hours later? for the first time? that's complete shit, and for Madara to have the same technique is highly unlikely

[Kafriel]

Originally Posted by RDF2050

This is what I believe how she died. I am sure Madara is responsible for this to happen.

I'm more of the opinion that she died as a soldier in war/on a mission. Gotta wonder how much preparation they get at the academy for this kind of stuff...

[solidguy]

Madara is Obito's ancestor...interesting.

[Artimus_Prime]

Originally Posted by prakash123

I dont think obito used kamui to slip through.I think it's a sharingan space time tech.his sharingan has to be special.kamui is an ms tech

for now, i may just agree with you. on several occasions obitos right eye is shown with only two tomoe this chapter. did his eye jump from two tomes to a mangekyou to save his life? maybe…but it also doesn't make sense that only a underdeveloped sharingan (and one at that) give him that intangibility property. but for now it seems to be the right answer since we know kamui is a MS tech and obito doesn't have that yet. ( i suspect he gets it when rin dies). just speculating...

Originally Posted by milan kyuubi

But what in the meantime? Between giving his eyes to Nagato and waiting for someone to manipulate? Nagato could have easily been killed or starved to death. Madara's plan (with the info we know now, it could change in the future) was to give his eyes to Nagato. And then expected that Nagato will resurrect him. There are many flaws in this plan. And for someone who was praised as one of the best ninja ever. Madara sure let a lot of things things to a chance. He didn't know if Nagato will survive in a war torn land. He didn't know if he will unlock rinnegan. He didn't know what kind of a person he will turn out to be. He didn't know if Nagato will resurrect him when he gave his eyes to Nagato. This is the same as it's with Minato. Madara gave his eyes and knew it will go how he wanted just because. The same way Minato knew Naruto will be the savior, just because.

Perhaps, as other have mentioned, he anticipated the eyes being protective. if we look at the actual story and not what could have happened, we see that every time nagato was in danger, he was saved by the rinnegan

Originally Posted by Casshern

Instead of giving his rinnegan away, he could've used rinne tensei to bring back Izuna. Even better, he could've used edo tensei to rez him. An immortal indestructible Izuna would've been perfect to carry out his plan; the only other character who was on par with Madara, other than Hashirama. Madara and Izuna together would've been unstoppable.

i think there is some kind of time factor on the rinne jutsu as state by nagato. izuna died long before madara activated his rinnegan

Originally Posted by haegar

Oh and Obito just so happens to fall into Madara's secret tunnels when the rocks fell ?!?! - oh b**** please, u kiddin? I'd have much prefered Madara was scouting Obito from early on as he suspected the kid had a special sharingan. Not so sure I like this "sudden coincidence karma of two uchiha fucked over by fate meeting in some underground rathole to plot revenge on the world" angle.... (though maybe that is just Madara giving things a spin to win over Obito, we shall see...)

as kannabi bridge was at the border of two territories (if i recall correctly) it makes sense for madara, thought to be dead to have underground passages to infiltrate places…just speculating

this would also mean the current tobi hideout where tobi took kabuto where the gedo statue flower thing is, is likely near that bridge which in retrospect is kinda cool to me.

Originally Posted by b1gdawg

I don't really like how Obito got to where he is. Madara's secret lair just happened to be under that battle ground? There's gotta be more to it, Madara must have saved him, but how? He's old and can't detach from that thing. His powers must be low.

I also want to know where they are. Madara didn't really explain that. This chapter 90% revealed that Madara gave Nagato the rinnegan not Tobi, but why would Tobi say he gave Nagato the rinnegan? There was no reason for him to lie to Konan since he was about to kill her anyway. There must be part of Madara inside Obito.

obito likely very loyal to the plan, was instructed to be madara til the real one return. whether on a boat, in a plane, or shotgun in a car…
i've wondered at times tho whether obito planned to betray madara…the real madara has alluded at least twice that obito must have something in mind hastening the plan like he did. obito did want to know how to end the edo tensei

Originally Posted by SuperRareTreeCat

Madara said he had given his eyes away, doesn't confirm he gave them away to Nagato. Although he probably did seeing as where this is headed but still not confirmed as to who.

Kisame

all speculation...

[itachi-san314]

Originally Posted by solidguy

Madara is Obito's ancestor...interesting.

maybe interesting, but not yet. i think all that is implied by that statement this chapter is that madara is an old uchiha, hence obito's and all other living uchihas' ancestor. there is no direct familial ties mentioned. at least not yet. and seeing as how this all apparently happened by chance and not by madara's design (unless he's lying which would make more sense actually) then the reason for madara being directly related to obito just flew out the window. but i do hope it's a lie. obito falling into his lair is just too random. much like the juugo suigetsu scroll find which was mentioned earlier in this thread. happenstance is fine in a story, but there is a line that those 2 events cross imho

[SuperRareTreeCat]

Originally Posted by b1gdawg

I doubt that it's another dimension, Madara would have had to transport that huge Mazou thing with Hashriama's DNA

And come on, Obito just unlocked his Sharingan, then he uses his space time Ninjutsu a few hours later? for the first time? that's complete shit, and for Madara to have the same technique is highly unlikely

I don't think Obito would have realized he used it considering he thought he was dead, seems sharingan abilities awaken in different ways for certain people. Seems more plausible then to say he's got an underground chamber beneath the place where obito got crushed.

The Mazo's a summoning doesn't seem to hard to get it there, also we don't know how long he's been there.

[Artful Dodger]

Originally Posted by milan kyuubi

Madara giving Nagato his eyes. And them somehow expecting Nagato to revive him later on. When Nagato knew nothing of this. This is a plot hole. Madara didn't know Obito will show up in his hideout when he gave the eyes to Nagato.

…And none of this was stated to have actually happen this chapter. You just created your own set of events and are complaining about the outcome. Even if any of this actually happened, it still wouldn’t be a plothole since there are still possible explanations for certain events, not to mention the backstory isn’t even finished unfolding.

[King Lycan]

And the 50 chapter back story of Obito begins

[Hiking_Bear]

Kishi is definitely flirting with some plot holes here. I'm not talking about Rin. Obito's motives for becoming Tobi may turn out to be far-fetched (we'll see), but honestly, if you didn't drop the manga after Itachi's true motives were revealed, or when Nagato did his 180 degree change of heart and revived half of Konoha, then you're not going to bail over Obito's story.

The real problem is the timeline. I'm thinking back to Chapter 560 where Edo-Madara stated that he awakened the Rinnegan shortly before his death. Now, I don't know if this is a mistranslation or if there is some hyperbole in these words, but Madara encountered Obito in the cave perhaps more than 10 years after Nagato already received the Rinnegan. Consequently, these last two chapters seem to contradict Chapter 560. And even though Madara is long-lived, I still wouldn't consider a decade to be a short period of time. A lot can be accomplished in a decade.

Also, why would Madara downgrade his eyes, if he could have kept the Rinnegan for himself? Sure he's feeble and confined to his cave, but think about Nagato's state. Nagato was an emaciated cripple who was confined to his Metagross-chair, and yet he still managed to lead Akatsuki in the capture of several tailed-beasts. At least Madara could walk on his own.

EDIT: One possibility that would clear things up is if Madara words in Chapter 560 were meant to refer to the moment when Nagato summoned the Gedo Mazou against Hanzou. If this is what Madara meant as the moment in time when the Rinnegan truly awakened, then the timeline makes more sense. Although, now that I think about it ... this would introduce another contradiction. Madara must have possessed the awakened Rinnegan at some point, since Tobi stated that Madara was able to becaome the 2nd Six Paths Sage. hmmm....

[Dengar]

Originally Posted by b1gdawg

There was no reason for him to lie to Konan since he was about to kill her anyway.

Was there any particular reason to tell the truth?

[b1gdawg]

Originally Posted by Dengar

Was there any particular reason to tell the truth?

There was no reason to lie -_-
Yes there was a reason to tell the truth, there are a billion people reading this stuff.

And honestly I've been second guessing Naruto after they revealed Tobi. Usually i can't wait till Wednesday so i can read the chapter. Now, I read it and get disappointed at how stupid the story is getting. The Kabuto flash backs were nothing short of pointless, and now these flashbacks are gonna take 1-2 months to get through. Obito shouldn't have been Tobi. Woulda been more satisfied if it was someone we never seen before or just never unmask him. Now the next 2 months of the Manga are gonna make me stop reading, when i'd much rather watch the fights and see how they would interact. Show the flashback when some one is dying or about to lose the fight, not when tons of fans are disappointed after the 3 year build up to the unmasking of Tobi.

[Dengar]

Originally Posted by b1gdawg

There was no reason to lie -_-
Yes there was a reason to tell the truth, there are a billion people reading this stuff.

But in-universe. Did he have any reason to tell the truth?

[mystogan]

i don't understand why is Obito so much messed up over protecting Rin, she is a ninja herself!!, a chunin at that, and we have already seen very powerful ninjas at genin level, Obito is making it sound as if it's his biggest aim in life, "just to be Rin's bodyguard", and he is pulling kakashi into forever just protecting someone nonsense, it makes me even sick