Toradora! - Character Discussion - Kawashima Ami

[Darknemo2000]

Kind of posted the same thing in episode 12 discussion but since it suits here too here it goes - I remember there is an Elton John song called "I want love" which goes with lyrics -

I want love
That doesn't mean a thing

I want love, just a different kind
I want love, won't break me down
Won't brick me up, won't fence me in
I want a love, that don't mean a thing
That's the love I want, I want love

Kind of suits what Ami said in a sense as her love/romance is similar to that. Her love isnt strong as such, it doenst make her dependable, but it is love in its own terms, just of different kind.

[BetoJR]

Originally Posted by Soul Assassin

Maybe, but I'm also thinking that if Ryuuji changed his decisions all of a sudden and goes like, "Ami is fine too..." (sorry, can't think of a better line to describe it) then... poof Ami got herself another chance. And that is what she might be thinking, in my opinion.

That's pretty much how it could go, mate. Like I said, consciously, she may be trying to back down. Now, if she's going to be able to do it - even more if he displays even an ounce of interest in her... well, that's another story.

[physics223]

It's the tragedy of most series that we often root for those with the infinitesimal chances.

But it's quite written in stone: ToraDora - and there you go, and there the series goes, and that's all folks.

[Voitan]

Originally Posted by physics223

It's the tragedy of most series that we often root for those with the infinitesimal chances.

But it's quite written in stone: ToraDora - and there you go, and there the series goes, and that's all folks.

Well not exactly, but it does looks like that.

As was said, the novel isn't over yet, and JC staff might give the anime a different direction.

[stormy001_M1A2]

There is always fanfiction or doujins.

[SageGaiGar]

Originally Posted by stormy001_M1A2

There is always fanfiction or doujins.

The last bastion of the desperate shipper.

[typhonsentra]

The Ami question I mentioned before:

Spoiler:

It seems that after Book 6 Ami settles on not pursuing Ryuuji any longer and acting as a sort of matchmaker between him and Taiga. As far back as book 2 she could tell that Taiga had feelings for him but even deep into what's been posted of book 6 she continues to try to hurt her by acting like she's stealing him away from her and in book 9 she apparently says that she stayed in the school in part to help Taiga after she saw her act hurt at the end of book 4. That doesn't seem to mesh with her actions in some of the subsequent books, what gives?

[roan]

Originally Posted by typhonsentra

The Ami question I mentioned before:

Spoiler:

It seems that after Book 6 Ami settles on not pursuing Ryuuji any longer and acting as a sort of matchmaker between him and Taiga. As far back as book 2 she could tell that Taiga had feelings for him but even deep into what's been posted of book 6 she continues to try to hurt her by acting like she's stealing him away from her and in book 9 she apparently says that she stayed in the school in part to help Taiga after she saw her act hurt at the end of book 4. That doesn't seem to mesh with her actions in some of the subsequent books, what gives?

Because..

Spoiler:

She has conflicting feelings in the matter, but a lot of the times, the light teasing is to either provoke Taiga, or at least to point out to her that what she's doing or thinking is unusual.

The type of backup she provides is pretty subtle and outwardly bitchy, but actually pretty nice. Like forcefully getting Taiga to become a part of the class in the Cultural Festival; from Taiga's perspective this is annoying, but it's also expand Taiga's world in the class beyond Ryuuji and Minori. She's helping Taiga more in the sense of maturing? (Alternatively, I'm thinking that this is how Ryuuji and Taiga's relationship should have been, in the dragon stands equal to a tiger sort of way)

She already knows that it's never going to be a matter of her vs. Taiga, but Taiga vs. Minori, so really the "her stealing Ryuuji" was never seriously in the running in anybody else's eyes (which is also where some of the frustration is building up I should add). What she does towards Ryuuji won't hurt Taiga, because Taiga doesn't take her as a real threat. On the other hand, with Minori...

She's turned passive after volume 4, because from the expression she saw in Taiga's face, she could tell the relationship between Taiga, Ryuuji, and Minori was messed up.

At least, that's what she confessed. From another perspective, she was trying to play the good girl, but built up stress when nobody noticed what she was trying to do.

In the novels anyway.

Actions contradict confused emotions is what it really comes down to for everybody.

I could translate a few scenes and pm them to you to highlight this if you want.

[typhonsentra]

That'd be too much trouble. The summary you provided was plenty, thank you.

[houkoholic]

Spoiler:

I must also add that Ami isn't really there to help just Taiga, but everyone in the circle.

She confessed that they were (besides Kitamura, who is her childhood friend) her first true friends where she can open up to. As pretty much what we can observe from her from volume 4 (the summer vacation eps) onwards, she deduced that their relationship (they being Ryuji/Minorin/Taiga/Kitamura) is messed up and going to hurt someone in the end. Her intentions was getting more and more clear in retrospect - she was using her own provocative way to try to get the others to be honest, to open their eyes to their true feelings (provocative is probably not quite true, since her true self is sort of "bitchy", so she was also in a sense being honest and hoping the other would also be honest in return). In her earlier approaches, especially during the summer vacation, towards Ryuji can probably be interpreted to be her trying to get Taiga to feel jealousy and thus wake up her true feelings towards Ryuji, and her teasing with Ryuji is also to point out to Ryuji how his feelings when he is with any of the girls are different and thus give him a chance to compare and contrast which feelings he has towards which of the girls are genuine love or just a passing puppy-love crush. As for her and Minorin, she took a similiar approach of trying to induce some sort of feelings from her and it was fear and anger. This was especially clear in volume 8 where she delibrately picked a fight with Minorin in hoping that out of anger Minorin will spill her heart about her true feelings towards Ryuji.

Ami's method seems to hurt is in one sense because she is being a little blunt with her methods and also too direct in pointing out the ugly facts, facts that the others didn't really want to acknowledge. Plus as ron said she had a conflicting interest as she also really wanted the appreciation from the group but didn't get it so out of spite she also ended up destroying what she wanted to make good. Sort of like a child being unable to get attention from adults and ends up breaking things or make a mess in the house in frustration.

[Amber.Dawn]

I've grown to like Ami.
At first, I didn't like her, but now, I see her in a different light.

She has opened up to the main characters, and seems generally nice overall.
So, what the posters above me have said.

[houkoholic]

The latest episode actually helped me in understanding Ami's character a bit more.

I think it is becoming very clear that Ami is not really interested in Ryuji in a physical attraction way nor a romantic sort of feeling, but rather the very specific quality that Ryuji demonstrates towards Taiga - namely pretty much how Ryuji will let Taiga run all over him yet still he would do his best to make Taiga happy, despite them not really be in a romantic relationship nor Ryuji wanting something in return from Taiga. Ami is secretly still wishing for this accommadating quality from a partner where she could be as selfish and bratty as she wants (without putting on her fake face) and still be accepted, while otoh she being a bit more matured and entered working society she also knew that she can't do that without being shunt on by her peers outside of school. This is where her conflicts comes from and why she looks at Ryuji differently. It's also very telling again on the author's view on relationship because it is almost ironic that Ami is supposedly the one with the perfect sexual appeal, yet she seeks preciously someone that is unmoved by her physical attractiveness and wants someone who would basically babysit her without demanding anything in return (I don't think I would be off by saying that this is the exact same fantasy dream partner for a few females) - the exact way that Ryuji takes care of Taiga. It says a lot about how the author wants to protray relationships in ToraDora when 2 out of the 3 main female characters ends up finding this quality in their potential interest to be the most attractive point.

I was particularly excited to see that the anime original scene where Ami happily accepting the "you're still a child" comment from Ryuji, which supports a similiar analogy by me above of Ami causing havok to seek attention as a child-like behaviour. It's always nice to be proven right. And a little kudos for dense Ryuji to be at least able to pick up some right hints from Ami for once.

[BetoJR]

You know, I have a little problem with people inferring that the male protagonists in romantic comedy/drama series are always dense. Maybe sometimes that's true, but here, on Toradora!, it's just not applicable.

And I do not agree with your point that Ami isn't romantically interested in Ryuji. At least to me, that's still very ambiguous. You could be over analyzing the situation a bit, there.

[Darknemo2000]

houkoholic I am not so sure about your point that Ami like Ryuuji is not physically attracted. We do see in novels a descriptions which do indicate that physically Ryuuji does find Taiga attractive. In anime, maybe not that much though. But the physical attractiveness exist in the novels it just never really gets expanded and is suppressed to show a dysfunctional relationship where one part of the relationship is overemphasized over the other.

[houkoholic]

Originally Posted by BetoJR

You know, I have a little problem with people inferring that the male protagonists in romantic comedy/drama series are always dense. Maybe sometimes that's true, but here, on Toradora!, it's just not applicable.

Actually it most certainly is. As a lot of the things I'm inferring is also based on the novels and it becomes a serious issue later on and gives rise to much drama. Ryuji might not be dense as a rock, but he is definitely a little bit on the thick side when it comes to the signals that Ami is sending out. In fact this becomes an issue really soon....

And I do not agree with your point that Ami isn't romantically interested in Ryuji. At least to me, that's still very ambiguous. You could be over analyzing the situation a bit, there.

Not at all, again I'm inferring a few things from the novel here along with what they have shown in episode 14 to come to this. Episode 14 shows how Ami tried to play adult in front of everyone (but always showing a sad smile afterwards) but only Ryuji saw through it shows preciously why she took an interest in him - she's longing for someone to cuddle her as a child. It's made pretty clear here and with some more knowledge from the novel towards the end it is quite obvious that emotional comfort is more of her priority than anything else.

Originally Posted by Darknemo2000

houkoholic I am not so sure about your point that Ami like Ryuuji is not physically attracted.

Er yes Ami is not physically attracted to Ryuji, it only takes a review of their first meeting to see that physically, the impression of Ryuji on Ami was very negative. Ami is really only attracted to Ryuji emotionally, whether that attraction is romantic or not is sort of debatable (but I'm saying it isn't), there's no debate that Ami doesn't find Ryuji not physically attractive.

We do see in novels a descriptions which do indicate that physically Ryuuji does find Taiga attractive.

Not the point of the discussion, I never said anything about what Ryuji thinks of Taiga. You're losing it. Unless you mean Ami, but unless you are picking on word sematics the fact is that Ryuji is still virtually unmoved or phased by the beauty of Ami unlike practically every other male (except Kitamura which is like the only other male besides Ryuji who don't fret over Ami) in the story whom worshipps Ami like a goddess and will fall head over heals for her. Don't tell me you don't see this. Also the scene in Sudobucks in ep14, the conversation between Ami, Nanako and Maya is *exactly* about how Nanako and Maya were envious of the beauty of Ami and how they think she can win any boy Ami wants, which leads to Ami denying it as she thinks of Ryuji who sees her in more than just her physical attractiveness. The story slaps this over the viewers head so many times it is not even funny.

But the physical attractiveness exist in the novels it just never really gets expanded and is suppressed to show a dysfunctional relationship where one part of the relationship is overemphasized over the other.

Again stop you dysfunctional BS. You've already acknowledge that the romance in ToraDora is a fantasy utopian sort of emotional love, a lot of love stories are written like that and people call it romantic and pure. Heck there's a term for this genre, "純愛" (Junai, lit. pure love). It's romantic fantasy and it's in entertainment for decades, get over it, because it just starting to look like you're disagreeing with everything I'm saying just for the heck of disagreeing without providing any support for your argument.

[BetoJR]

But what you're trying to say is that emotional comfort is the only thing she's seeking in Ryuji (or whomever else she pursues). There's not enough here to back that claim up. And I'm only talking about the anime version (or the novels up to the penultimate chapter of volume 4 - as I'm following the Baka-Tsuki translations).

As for him being dense, we'll just have to agree to disagree, then. I, for one, find him quite perceptive - a welcome change, in fact.

[typhonsentra]

Hou, I obviously can't argue with you about the novels as you've read more than I have but as far as the anime goes it seems pretty clear that JC Staff's goal with the new material is to solidify Ami having feelings for Ryuuji for the audience. Mainly by showing her longing/sad looks when he's with the other girls or leaving her at the end of a scene.

[houkoholic]

Originally Posted by BetoJR

But what you're trying to say is that emotional comfort is the only thing she's seeking in Ryuji (or whomever else she pursues). There's not enough here to back that claim up. And I'm only talking about the anime version (or the novels up to the penultimate chapter of volume 4 - as I'm following the Baka-Tsuki translations).

Ami is not really interested in Ryuji in a physical attraction way nor a romantic sort of feeling

Not really doesn't mean none last I remembered. I'm saying the emotional comfort takes a higher priority over the other feelings, be it romantic or not.

As for him being dense, we'll just have to agree to disagree, then. I, for one, find him quite perceptive - a welcome change, in fact.

Like I said, he is not dense as a rock, only thick towards Ami's signals. He is very perceptive towards Taiga though, which in fact just shows how much more important one is over the other in Ryuji's mind (ie he pays way more attention to Taiga than to Ami).

Originally Posted by typhonsentra

Mainly by showing her longing/sad looks when he's with the other girls or leaving her at the end of a scene.

Actually it only shows more about how much she wishes that Ryuji to pay the same kind of attention to her like he would to Taiga, as her jealous reactions are specifically towards when Ryuji acts nice to Taiga's selfishness and that only, she wants Ryuji to know that she is lonely and isolated just like Taiga. When she said Taiga is already very lucky/happy to Ryuji, she obviously wasn't refering to Taiga having a romantic partner, but rather the fact that Taiga has someone as caring as Ryuji who is worried about the happiness of Taiga even though they are not in a romantic relationship (and Ami knows Ryuji at this point really likes Minorin instead too!). Thus it doesn't say much about the romantic feelings because jealousy doesn't have to come from romantic feelings, jealousy can come from the preception that the other party is better off than onself. Again the whole analogy to a child misbehaving as a signal to compete for attention from an adult is IMO the right one here, as the conversation in ep14 shows that she'd rather not be treated as an adult and we were shown how Ami was trying to reach out to the other friends and peers she had but only Ryuji managed to pick up her distress signal this time.

[Darknemo2000]

I was arguing about Taiga because you drew a parallel between Ami's feelings to Ryuuji and Ryuujis feelings to Taiga. Since you said that Ami is not physically attracted to Ryuuji the same should be applied to Ryuuji and Taiga if we are to follow your parallel and this is something I cannot agree.

You call it pure love, or Junai, I call it dysfunctional relationship, everyone have their own right for the vocabulary. Your point is?

It is not like i am trying to convince everyone about it in my post, so your reaction is too exaggerated. This merely a term I am using to call the thing you are calling 'pure love'. In both cases both terms are valid as they are used as means to express oneself, if you don't like it, well sorry, but you'll have to bear with it.

I have already provided my musings about why I call it dysfunctional as I am referring them to the real world. If you want for me not to call that this way you should actually convince that such relationship exists in reality and is fully functional. So far from my own, short experienced I have came to conclusion of impossibility of such relationship existence and impossibility of the actual separation. You haven't answered to that yet all that you keep repeating like broken gramophone is that this is a relationship the author tries to portray, and this is, no point in argue, it doesnt change my point about it being dysfunctional though.

[typhonsentra]

Not all of her jealous reactions were caused by Taiga. Two scenes in the beach vacation arc specifically...

Spoiler:

- When Minori and him are out on the porch talking and you see her up in her room taking off her make-up.

- The next episode, when again Minori's with Ryuuji cooking. She's listening in behind the wall, looks down, grunts, and walks away.