The Novel and Manga of Haruhi Suzumiya

[ijuinkun]

Originally Posted by Heatth

What you say is correct, however, it is kinda missing the actual discussion. Many, if not all, are under the impression that Mikuru's question implied that she didn't know that 'boats exist' and not that she didn't know that 'metal may float'. They are different things, and your post and analogy just reffer to the latter, being, therefore, a bad analogy to the former.

You and me seens to agree it is the latter, but the majority seens to think it is the former (other wise it wouldn't be people suggesting there was no ocean in future). Does anyone have the actual quote from the novel, to try to clear this up?

If it's about the size/design of the ship rather than about the concept of buoyancy, then it may be that Mikuru was feeling the same kind of awe that we feel when looking at Stonehenge or the Pyramids--in other words. "How could they have built/used such a thing with their primitive technology?" She would likely be just as awed at realizing that people of our era traveled to the Moon riding on three-thousand-ton firecrackers instead of fusion-powered antigravity craft.

This, again, is kind of similar to how these days we do not think about lighting a fire by rubbing bits of wood together, and instead tend to use prefabricated matches or cigarette lighters--you experience a bit of a mental disconnect when you realize exactly what lighting a fire in the ancient way entails.

[ultimatemegax]

I apologize for deviating from the Mikuru vs boat conflict, but there is something we may want to pay attention to:



On April 30th in Japan, in June's edition of "The Sneaker" there will be something about the Surprise of Haruhi Suzumiya (Novel 10). I cannot tell if it will be something like a prologue or something else, so I will not speculate as to the contents.

Edit: To confirm that it is a real book and not a photoshop, here is another view of the announcement:

Spoiler:

2nd Edit: I feel more comfortable detailing the fact that it appears to be the first part of the book revealed in the June issue after reading more information.

[darksassin]

The reason I asked about novel 4 is because my friend and I decided to alternately buy the novel. She buy the odd number, I buy even number.

Originally Posted by ultimatemegax

I apologize for deviating from the Mikuru vs boat conflict, but there is something we may want to pay attention to:



On April 30th in Japan, in June's edition of "The Sneaker" there will be something about the Surprise of Haruhi Suzumiya (Novel 10). I cannot tell if it will be something like a prologue or something else, so I will not speculate as to the contents.

So, it is almost confirmed that novel 10 will be out? If it is true,

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon

The way Mikuru describes the time quake, it seems as though that in the past they DID have access to pre-3YA time planes, and the object given to Tsuruya in Vol. 7 should probably prove that.

In the past?

You do realise that made no sense at all, right?
If Haruhi blocked backward time travel further than a specific point, it wouldn't matter WHEN it happened. Alteration of the past means the change occurs retroactively, as if it has always been there. Granted, there is a chance of alternate worlds that got re-written, but...

For reasons relating to the circumstances of Timetravel's very invention, Mikuru's people could not have gone back in time in an alternate version of the world before Haruhi blocked the past. That alternate world does not exist because

Spoiler for novel spoiler:

without Haruhi's thesis on time-planes, the time machine would never have been created.

[keri]

Originally Posted by ultimatemegax

I apologize for deviating from the Mikuru vs boat conflict, but there is something we may want to pay attention to:

Spoiler for for size:

On April 30th in Japan, in June's edition of "The Sneaker" there will be something about the Surprise of Haruhi Suzumiya (Novel 10). I cannot tell if it will be something like a prologue or something else, so I will not speculate as to the contents.

Edit: To confirm that it is a real book and not a photoshop, here is another view of the announcement:

Spoiler:

2nd Edit: I feel more comfortable detailing the fact that it appears to be the first part of the book revealed in the June issue after reading more information.

OMG OMG YAY. I'm doing a little internal dance of excitement that it's finally definitely coming out, though not a big one because I have a two-days-overdue paper I'm trying to finish with minimal distractions. (Also, even if it's June issue, it'll be a while before translations start surfacing, I imagine. And without baka-tsuki, I can't be lazy about looking for one.)

[M.Marangio]

It's also on ANN and they linked to this page: http://yunakiti.blog79.fc2.com/blog-entry-4762.html.

ETA: Also on gigazine.

[Tyabann]

So does that announcement say anything about it being the final book?

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

In the past?

You do realise that made no sense at all, right?

I've brought this up before... this is how it HAS to work.

They wouldn't have "noticed" that they couldn't go back past the 3YA event if they hadn't been able to do so to begin with. Of course, you could argue that the limitation has always been there, but then how do you explain that odd device? It certainly wasn't "aliens", as humans are the only sentient corporeal beings in the universe, according to Nagato.

[ultimatemegax]

Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon

So does that announcement say anything about it being the final book?

There is nothing about the novel being the last one that I have read so far. There's some text that can't be seen easily, so there is still the possibility.

[Heatth]

Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon

They wouldn't have "noticed" that they couldn't go back past the 3YA event if they hadn't been able to do so to begin with. Of course, you could argue that the limitation has always been there, but then how do you explain that odd device? It certainly wasn't "aliens", as humans are the only sentient corporeal beings in the universe, according to Nagato.

Precursors? Maybe there were some ancient very advanced civilization in Japan long ago. I am sure I saw something in tvtrope's WMG.

Or time travel to before 3 years ago [b]will[b] become possible in Mikuru's future. As far as we know, it can already be possible in Mikuru's(big) time.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon

So does that announcement say anything about it being the final book?



I've brought this up before... this is how it HAS to work.

They wouldn't have "noticed" that they couldn't go back past the 3YA event if they hadn't been able to do so to begin with. Of course, you could argue that the limitation has always been there, but then how do you explain that odd device? It certainly wasn't "aliens", as humans are the only sentient corporeal beings in the universe, according to Nagato.

You are talking about the Titanium alloy?
One possible explanation offered by the novel was that it was left over from an ancient human civilisation. Kyon hope that it was a time traveller or alien who did this instead, because there is enough strange people around him already as it is.

And as I mentioned in the spoiler, they MUST have always been unable to go further back in time. They just don't understand why they can't.

[quigonkenny]

Originally Posted by Heatth

Precursors? Maybe there were some ancient very advanced civilization in Japan long ago. I am sure I saw something in tvtrope's WMG.

You do realize that invoking TV Tropes' WMG automatically loses you the argument, right? It's the equivalent of invoking Hitler in a political argument. We can no longer take you seriously. ^_^

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

And as I mentioned in the spoiler, they MUST have always been unable to go further back in time. They just don't understand why they can't.

Causality is a fairly malleable thing when Haruhi is involved.

[Tyabann]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

And as I mentioned in the spoiler, they MUST have always been unable to go further back in time. They just don't understand why they can't.

You're assuming that Haruhi's powers follow conventional logic. Mikuru describes Haruhi's time quake as just that... a "quake". Which means that it must have been some kind of observable event, after which the time travelers found themselves unable to go back further into the past from 3YA.

Furthemore, the possibility of an "ancient civilization" feels ludicrous to me, unless its existence is hidden as a result of some sort of conspiracy.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon

You're assuming that Haruhi's powers follow conventional logic. Mikuru describes Haruhi's time quake as just that... a "quake". Which means that it must have been some kind of observable event, after which the time travelers found themselves unable to go back further into the past from 3YA.

Furthemore, the possibility of an "ancient civilization" feels ludicrous to me, unless its existence is hidden as a result of some sort of conspiracy.

Of course the time-quake is observable. They know when in time it happened, and have the instruments to measure it. But it has ALWAYS happened at that time.

As for lost civilisations, that actually occur all the time IRL. Civilisations don't last that long. You don't need a conspiracy, not when no one remembered it as anything but myth.

[Heatth]

Originally Posted by quigonkenny

You do realize that invoking TV Tropes' WMG automatically loses you the argument, right? It's the equivalent of invoking Hitler in a political argument. We can no longer take you seriously. ^_^

I was not really trying to be serious. If I had to guess something I would say it was from an alternativ dimension. At last fits better.

Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon

You're assuming that Haruhi's powers follow conventional logic. Mikuru describes Haruhi's time quake as just that... a "quake". Which means that it must have been some kind of observable event, after which the time travelers found themselves unable to go back further into the past from 3YA.

Like time travel to before 3 years ago being impossible from year XXXX to year YYYY but possible after or before that?

This is kind of a possibility to. However, what your stop the time-travelers to go back to before said event and, from there, go back to before 3 years ago.

Hmmm, now I stop to think, there is no place saying they find this limitation a problem, just that they want to study Haruhi. They could just trying to find why a random girl can mess with time, even if it didn't effect them. Still, there is something kinda wrong, why would Haruhi, from 3 years ago, just effect year XXXX+?

Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon

Furthemore, the possibility of an "ancient civilization" feels ludicrous to me, unless its existence is hidden as a result of some sort of conspiracy.

Well, yeah, that would be. It is as logic as a Agency spying a high school studant or time traveling existing yet no rogue future people appearing telling everyone about that. Anyway, I don't like it either. There is no kinda of foreshadowing of such thing, no one never mentioned it in the novels as far I remember. I find ghosts existing more probable. I preffer my other dimension explanation.

PP:

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

s for lost civilisations, that actually occur all the time IRL. Civilisations don't last that long. You don't need a conspiracy, not when no one remembered it as anything but myth.

The problem is that civilization must be advanced. That means she had to be least for a long time. And they have to had been in Japan at last once. Leaving no traces is kinda weird.

[Tyabann]

Yeah, I guess my theory doesn't make any real sense. It's just that the word "quake" implies to me that, at some point in the time travelers' own past, they observed an event in the happening, which, after that point, cut them off from pre-3YA time planes.

But like I said, it doesn't make any sense if you think about it.

Originally Posted by Heatth

Leaving no traces is kinda weird.

Actually, it isn't. Since iron, steel and computer chips erode faster than rock and brick, any ancient civilization as advanced as our own would leave next to no trace of its existence.

[ultimatemegax]

From the official translation:

"It was three years ago. A large timequake was detected. Oh, um. Three years ago if you count from the current time. Back around when you and Suzumiya became middle school students. After arriving in the past to investigate the matter, we were shocked. No matter what we tried, we were unable to go any further back in time.
Again with the three years ago business, huh?
"The conclusion was that a large time fault had appeared between time planes. But we couldn't figure out why the fault was limited to this epoch. We only learned the possible reason recently....Ah, recently for the future I come from."

I would gather to say that when they were able to begin measuring time (ie the beginning of time travel), they found that a time fault appeared between the planes between three years ago and before three years ago. When they went to investigate the cause, they found that they weren't able to cross the planes due to the fault. Right before Mikuru was sent back (and likely due to why she was sent back) they discovered that Haruhi was the cause of the fault and sent people to observe if she would create another time fault.

[Heatth]

Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon

Actually, it isn't. Since iron, steel and computer chips erode faster than rock and brick, any ancient civilization as advanced as our own would leave next to no trace of its existence.

But I tought plastic last, like, forever? Well, since we have no idea what they did use I guess it could be. But, they would have also never had any contact with any other civilization (so there is no records), while had being in Japan at some point. But I guess they could be just that old (like, before ancient China and Egipt).

Actually, if they are that old things would be simpler. There are no other civilization to remember about them and it would be old enough to the traces disappear.

[keri]

Originally Posted by ultimatemegax

From the official translation:

Spoiler for quote:

"It was three years ago. A large timequake was detected. Oh, um. Three years ago if you count from the current time. Back around when you and Suzumiya became middle school students. After arriving in the past to investigate the matter, we were shocked. No matter what we tried, we were unable to go any further back in time.
Again with the three years ago business, huh?
"The conclusion was that a large time fault had appeared between time planes. But we couldn't figure out why the fault was limited to this epoch. We only learned the possible reason recently....Ah, recently for the future I come from."

I would gather to say that when they were able to begin measuring time (ie the beginning of time travel), they found that a time fault appeared between the planes between three years ago and before three years ago. When they went to investigate the cause, they found that they weren't able to cross the planes due to the fault. Right before Mikuru was sent back (and likely due to why she was sent back) they discovered that Haruhi was the cause of the fault and sent people to observe if she would create another time fault.

Here's a crazy theory.
Mikuru says "we couldn't figure out why the fault was limited to this epoch." What exactly does she mean by epoch? Perhaps the thing about animation frames is more or less correct, and an epoch is like a reel of film? I don't know what could split an epoch, but if Mikuru is technically from a different epoch than ours, they would be able to go prior to the 3YA if they go to an epoch prior to ours, or come from a different epoch (thus leaving the alloy thing), but traveling from within our epoch to an earlier than 3YA point in our epoch is what's no good.

Timeline: ( --- some previous epoch ---)(--- our epoch ---)(--- Mikuru's epoch ---)
Our epoch: (x-can't travel to here-x -|| 3YA ---)

So if you leapfrog over our epoch, you can still move forward normally to get to prior-to-3YA, but you can't move backwards to that point.

Wild mass guessing, though, and mostly dependent on Mikuru's meaning of "epoch".

[Reckoner]

Unfortunately because Baka-Tsuki took down their novel translations, all I can do about novel 10 now is cry.

[dragon4dudes]

the time traveling discussion should go to Ontology thread or somewhere else.