Aquarion EVOL - Episode 21 Discussion / Poll

[wisteria233]

Originally Posted by Destined_Fate

Yes he did. His reaction to her is just like how his heart reacted to Mikono in the past. From personal experience I know what that feeling is and I know what it feels like to feel nothing when someone kisses you(If he didn't feel anything for her he wouldn't have flown from that kiss, he would have been angry or confused not having his heart beat for her). He felt something when she kissed him and it was a feeling that he only, up to that point, felt for Mikono. So yes, at that moment he temporary forgot about Mikono and loved Zessica than watched her get taken away from him.

Mikono is going to get a surprise when Amata reaches her, he's going to be a different man. Especially if she acts all happy to see him, while sighing about Kagura, when he's still dealing with his grief over losing Zessica after feeling something like that from her.

And from personal experience I know if you are kissed by someone who is attractive, and you are surprised by it then you will react, regardless of whether or not you have feelings for them.

Wow, prepared to be disappointed then.

[mixordia]

Kissing is good, surely that was Amata first kiss, of course he would have different "reactions"... When he has emotions, of any kind, He flies ... "You fly by anyone" Mikono words

But Amata has made it clear... he loves Mikono. I will not let someone I love go He said it or something, I don't remember now.

Do you cease to love someone if another person kiss you???

[mayumi]

What I would like from Amata is actually question himself, why he likes Mikono in the first place? Now that its revealed that Amata(original) = Amata(now) + Kagura. Why do both half's of original Amata like Mikono? If the answer is reincarnation business or she looks like his mother then it kinda puts off the whole Amata/Mikono stuff, because it felt like Amata was trying to fight fate to get with Mikono instead of Kagura.

In the end they could just change the fighting fate to back what we initially assumed about how they break the cycle and no one dies this time and amata-mikono get together by jumping fate. But i rather they didn't go by this interpretation.

[Faerie]

Originally Posted by mayumi

What I would like from Amata is actually question himself, why he likes Mikono in the first place? Now that its revealed that Amata(original) = Amata(now) + Kagura. Why do both half's of original Amata like Mikono? If the answer is reincarnation business or she looks like his mother then it kinda puts off the whole Amata/Mikono stuff, because it felt like Amata was trying to fight fate to get with Mikono instead of Kagura.

That is the very question that bothers me about Amata's feelings for Mikono. Why does he care for her indeed? It always bothers me when characters fall in love at the start of a show, it always lacks substance (RomeoxJuliet anyone? Didn't feel it through the entire show. Then again, it's based on a book about teenage infatuation, not love, so.). They were attracted to each other (physically? because of their issues? reincarnation business), and then went through no development or trials or anything at all whatsoever :/
Unless you count the jelly and the Kagura-angst. Which I don't.
I'm just baffled by the portrayal they've gotten, if they are indeed the intended couple.

[Destined_Fate]

Originally Posted by wisteria233

And from personal experience I know if you are kissed by someone who is attractive, and you are surprised by it then you will react, regardless of whether or not you have feelings for them.

Wow, prepared to be disappointed then.

Not exactly. If he just wanted her body he wouldn't be blushing or having his heart beat. His other head would just wake up. If Amata just wanted Zessica for her body and didn't care for her he could have easily asked her a long time ago to get in the bedroom and I doubt she would have refused his advances.

Furthermore, that's not true in the least. When I was growing up I wanted to get with a woman like Jessica Alba, but there was no heart fluttering effect or anything. I was just a teenage boy at the time that wanted to do what most teenagers dream of doing all the time. Also, Amata has shown that even with Zessica's teasing he never had his heart react to her until she kissed him, so it wasn't what you're describing and you're way off point on that regard. What you're describing is lust which doesn't fit the way Amata reacted to Zessica.

Originally Posted by mixordia

Kissing is good, surely that was Amata first kiss, of course he would have different "reactions"... When he has emotions, of any kind, He flies ... "You fly by anyone" Mikono words

But Amata has made it clear... he loves Mikono. I will not let someone I love go He said it or something, I don't remember now.

Do you cease to love someone if another person kiss you???

No, he's confused. She was the first girl, he's attracted to her and she looks a lot like his mother. He feels it's destiny that's why he pursues her while Mikono ignores him and lusts day and night for Kagura even when Amata is sitting next to her.

And yes. If a woman like Zessica, who clearly loves me, kisses me and apparently sacrifices herself for me I would seriously question why I've been ignoring her and fawning over a girl like Mikono who has been leading me on this entire time. No one likes women like that, they're the worst and most selfish of all women. They wont commit but refuse to stop leading you on because they don't want you to direct your attention elsewhere to someone that actually cares.

[wisteria233]

Originally Posted by Destined_Fate

Not exactly. If he just wanted her body he wouldn't be blushing or having his heart beat. His other head would just wake up. If Amata just wanted Zessica for her body and didn't care for her he could have easily asked her a long time ago to get in the bedroom and I doubt she would have refused his advances.

Furthermore, that's not true in the least. When I was growing up I wanted to get with a woman like Jessica Alba, but there was no heart fluttering effect or anything. I was just a teenage boy at the time that wanted to do what most teenagers dream of doing all the time. Also, Amata has shown that even with Zessica's teasing he never had his heart react to her until she kissed him, so it wasn't what you're describing and you're way off point on that regard. What you're describing is lust which doesn't fit the way Amata reacted to Zessica.

And that's a fallacy since Amata isn't you. And its been established that he "flies for anyone" regardless of his own personal feelings. Also as mixordia said it was likely his first kiss.

But I said it before I'll say it again, if you hold this belief then prepare to be disappointed.

[Destined_Fate]

Originally Posted by wisteria233

And that's a fallacy since Amata isn't you. And its been established that he "flies for anyone" regardless of his own personal feelings. Also as mixordia said it was likely his first kiss.

But I said it before I'll say it again, if you hold this belief then prepare to be disappointed.

You say that yet you put your own experiences to try and state what Amata felt was lust. So really, it's the pot calling the kettle black. Also, he "flies" for everyone isn't the same as his heart beating to Mikono and now Zessica, the only two that have gotten that reaction from him even though he has flown for both men and women thus far. First kiss doesn't change that Zessica made his heart flutter like it did for Mikono.

Whatever you say, nothing can disappoint me more than how Mass Effect 3 ended.

[wisteria233]

Originally Posted by Destined_Fate

You say that yet you put your own experiences to try and state what Amata felt was lust. So really, it's the pot calling the kettle black. Also, he "flies" for everyone isn't the same as his heart beating to Mikono and now Zessica, the only two that have gotten that reaction from him even though he has flown for both men and women thus far. First kiss doesn't change that Zessica made his heart flutter like it did for Mikono.

Whatever you say, nothing can disappoint me more than how Mass Effect 3 ended.

I only gave you that example to show you that how you feel isn't the same for everyone.

And again prepare to be disappointed.

[Destined_Fate]

Originally Posted by wisteria233

I only gave you that example to show you that how you feel isn't the same for everyone.

And again prepare to be disappointed.

No you said from your own experience. That isn't just an example, you're talking through personal bias than you go and say that I have no right to do the same. It doesn't work that way.

And as I said, what ever.

[wisteria233]

Originally Posted by Destined_Fate

No you said from your own experience. That isn't just an example, you're talking through personal bias than you go and say that I have no right to do the same. It doesn't work that way.

And as I said, what ever.

So know you think that you know what someone else is thinking better than the person themselves?

[GoldenLand]

This was a very good ep, IMO. Nice to have it confirmed that Amata and Kagura are one and the same, but I would have liked to see that earlier in the series or after more interaction between the two. At this point I can't see much of a way for Mikono not to be Silvia, what with her talk to Fudo. The Amata-Kagura thing is a fairly simple plot twist, and it works fine, but I'm still a little disappointed. There were so many creative possibilities for them. Personally, out of people's suggestions I rather liked the Amata=Silvia theory. The Mikono and Zessica = Silvia theory was good too. But there's still hope for the Zessica=Touma theory. Whatever happens, I seriously hope that Mykage isn't Touma. To me, those two are different types of fabulous villainy, no matter how alike they look.

One rant to get out of my system! Here:

I still really hate what the writers have done with Zessica. It's unfortunately true that her role has been reduced to nothing more than angsting because she loves Amata. I want to make a point of blaming the writers and not the character, because Zessica really had a lot of potential which hasn't been tapped into at all. Even despite the writing, she still manages to show good qualities. But what has happened is a total waste even more for knowing that Zessica could have been so much more as a main character. She's supposed to be one of the main cast, and yet we don't know anything about her past. We know more about Mix and Shrade's pasts than hers. I re-watched a few of the earlier episodes, before she was all-Amata all the time, and she came over so much better. It's such a pity.

The scene with her sacrifice in this ep was very sweet, but it can't make up for the hack job the writers have made of her. There's no way she's dead, so I can only hope that the writers have something in store for her other than mooning over Amata.

At this point, as a Zessica fan I think the worst thing that could possibly happen for Zessica's character would be if the writers went "Surprise! We decided to make Zessica/Amata happen after all. Zessica, please accept your happy ending!". Because the thing that's wrong with Zessica is that her love for Amata has become the only thing defining her as a character. Handing Amata to her won't do anything to salvage her. The writers can't take back their mess, but they do have a chance before the series ends to treat Zessica with the respect she deserves. At the least, give the girl a chance to move on and accept the situation.

Like people have mentioned, the main problem with Aquarion is that the writers hit the pause button on character development, interaction and plot for so long. Amata and Mikono's relationship? Pause button! Zessica's character development? Paused! Paused while on the lovelorn angst setting, no less. Poor girl. This is all just bad writing. Don't tell me they couldn't have made this series work without having to artificially freeze the character development and not-so-artfully preventing people from talking.

Speaking of freezing the plot, I am pretty sure that if this thing played out in a world where the writers weren't doing their best to stop the characters communicating and advancing the plot sensibly, this Altair vs Vega thing wouldn't have happened. Because Izumo, who is a sensible type, would surely have tried talking to Vega before kidnapping people. Rare iguras probably have a good chance of surviving the trip to Altair. "Come to Altair and we'll worship you as a goddess if you stay a woman, and if you don't we'll let you live in the most luxurious way we can provide for you, or return you home to Vega." If there were any women who wanted to be men, they would get a good deal. And hey, maybe the turning into a man thing is reversible? We don't have any info on it yet. Yunoha and Zessica got better when they went back to Vega, so it's not as if the process can't be observed and avoided in time. Bring all the rare iguras through at once, see who gets sick, and send them back home before they turn into blokes. Done, and without having to waste much energy on travel.

(And if it's not reversible, I'd still like MIX and Andy to get a happy ending together.)

Some of the discussion on the past few pages about how Mikono is the "worst of all women", some sort of evil temptress slobbering sexually 24 hours a day over Kagura while leading poor bewitched Amata on, is patently ridiculous. And the suggestion that Amata is obliged to date Zessica just because she wants him is also ridiculous.

[Vena]

I'm not going to bother replying to any one post and just make a general reply.

I really don't think that they could have made the visual choreography of this episode anymore identical to the first two episodes without just replaying them but changing out a couple of characters. Not only that, point for point, you go through every single *big* event of the first two episodes in Ep. 21 except for the initial forming of the Aquarion.
(1.) Kagura recognizes Mikono as his Sylvia :: Kagura recognizes Amata as his other half
(2.) Black Wedding Vision :: New Black Wedding Vision
(3.) Amata in the theater meets Mikono and the 12,000 year line :: Amata in the theater meets Zessica and the 12,000 year line.
(4.) Falling debris, Amata protects Mikono :: Falling debris, Zessica protects Amata
(5.) Trapped, Amata lifts off on a heartbeat to save himself and Mikono :: Trapped, Zessica makes Amata lift off on a heartbeat to save his life.
(6.) Memory of Alicia sneakily showing Kagura and Amata :: Memory of Alicia explicitly showing Kagura and Amata

The episode's second half is quite literally a retreading of the past by multiple characters, Kagura is remembering his past, Amata is wandering through his past, Zessica is walking in Mikono's shoes.

Mykage's dialogue is also pretty telling in what role each character plays and the past pieces of not-so-clear-why-he-did-what-he-did, make sense now. Why did he not help Kagura when he had Mikono? Because he doesn't care about just Kagura and Mikono, and he needs them on Vega. He wants Amata + Kagura (Amagura) and Mikono all together to wake the Wings of the Sun. Why was Mykage feeding Kagura false memories? Because he cannot risk to feed Kagura the real deal lest he remember exactly who he was, a part of Amata, before the pieces were truly in place for the Wings to awaken. (This actually makes sense, feed the fake movie nonsense to get a similar end result but being able to effectively keep control of a brainwashed Kagura/Apollo. If Kagura knows he's part of Amata, he may well try to defect.) More, going back to Ep. 11 we now know what the hell Mykage was talking about with the golden eyed, flaxen haired boy. And we know that he's known that they were one and the same this whole time. Why did Mikono get electrocuted? Because Amata started her up and, his other half, popping up finished her off. Why did Mikono stop Amata? Because he was about to shoot himself (her reasoning afterwards is still really stupid though). Why is Kagura/Mikono or Amata/Mikono forbidden as far as Aquarion and Fudo are concerned? Because their not whole and are fragments, while Mikono/Sylvia/Celianne seems to be quite whole. Why did Amata appear in the second mirror TV broadcast for Zessica? Because that was the complete Amata, golden hair and golden eyes. (Next paragraph expands what I'm about to say as an aside, why did Mykage show Zessica the full scene? To shatter her heart even more and make completely defenseless against him.) (Also, its fairly evident that Mykage knows the legend of Celianne and Apollonius perfectly well, he makes that explicitly clear this episode, and he's fairlywell informed of the legend of Apollo and Sylvia, he just has no knowledge of the finer details (he's probably not Toma, therefore). The fake story he tells Kagura is very, very close to the story of Apollo and Sylvia with some details mucked up.)

A lot of old ?? are falling into place now with these reveals, and if anything, this episode did a good job in bringing up some rather obtuse inconsistencies from the plot of before and tying them together neatly. The biggest mystery left is what is the deal with his manipulation of Zessica. Her falling in love with Amata was of her own devices and preferential allusion in the first episode (made more clear in the BD to be honest). He's quick to use her but to what end? He made it no secret that he does not approve of her actually getting in the way of the old legend, and his promise about the gate may very easily have been for her to turn into a man, removing her as an obstacle. (Little else makes much sense right now.) Her promise was effectively to die for him/get out of the way and he gave her what she wanted: to be free from the pain.

She could well be dead even if this isn't what I'd expect from anime on how to kill a character.

Heck, I thought this was probably one of the better written episodes recently as it started putting the pieces together and showing that a lot of those wiggly, loose ends of the past actually were something and not just god awful writing. People are looking at this far too strictly with shipping goggles on, and the beauty in the details is getting lost over drama.

As a complete aside, what is this about thematics? This show has multiple thematics and if I have to, I'll dig through the old episode discussion to point out how many times people talked about exactly what has been convenient for pairing X, Y, or Z (everyone, even I myself).
(1.) The New Legend
~ When we were on the Kagura is Apollo train, this meant that Amata was going to break the cycle by ending up with Mikono.
(2.) The wings to fly above fate said by Alicia, repeated by Amata for movie episode.
~ See above.
(3.) Fight fate, what matters is what is true now.
~ See above.
I'm not kidding when I say that the themes of this show have been changing episode to episode as far posts are concerned in here and how people view said "themes". What are the themes as far as we've actually have confirmation from some sources or the story in and of itself?
Fight fate was in the interview spoilers that kuro translated a while back.
The story of the end is token.
The new legend is Fudo and he's back to it this last episode.
Forbidden Lovers if Mykage, Aquarion, and Fudo didn't make it clear enough.
Shrade is immortal, Cayenne's visions are confusing obviously this is a theme.

[wisteria233]

Originally Posted by Vena

I'm not going to bother replying to any one post and just make a general reply.

I really don't think that they could have made the visual choreography of this episode anymore identical to the first two episodes without just replaying them but changing out a couple of characters. Not only that, point for point, you go through every single *big* event of the first two episodes in Ep. 21 except for the initial forming of the Aquarion.
(1.) Kagura recognizes Mikono as his Sylvia :: Kagura recognizes Amata as his other half
(2.) Black Wedding Vision :: New Black Wedding Vision
(3.) Amata in the theater meets Mikono and the 12,000 year line :: Amata in the theater meets Zessica and the 12,000 year line.
(4.) Falling debris, Amata protects Mikono :: Falling debris, Zessica protects Amata
(5.) Trapped, Amata lifts off on a heartbeat to save himself and Mikono :: Trapped, Zessica makes Amata lift off on a heartbeat to save his life.
(6.) Memory of Alicia sneakily showing Kagura and Amata :: Memory of Alicia explicitly showing Kagura and Amata

The episode's second half is quite literally a retreading of the past by multiple characters, Kagura is remembering his past, Amata is wandering through his past, Zessica is walking in Mikono's shoes.

Mykage's dialogue is also pretty telling in what role each character plays and the past pieces of not-so-clear-why-he-did-what-he-did, make sense now. Why did he not help Kagura when he had Mikono? Because he doesn't care about just Kagura and Mikono, and he needs them on Vega. He wants Amata + Kagura (Amagura) and Mikono all together to wake the Wings of the Sun. Why was Mykage feeding Kagura false memories? Because he cannot risk to feed Kagura the real deal lest he remember exactly who he was, a part of Amata, before the pieces were truly in place for the Wings to awaken. (This actually makes sense, feed the fake movie nonsense to get a similar end result but being able to effectively keep control of a brainwashed Kagura/Apollo. If Kagura knows he's part of Amata, he may well try to defect.) More, going back to Ep. 11 we now know what the hell Mykage was talking about with the golden eyed, flaxen haired boy. And we know that he's known that they were one and the same this whole time. Why did Mikono get electrocuted? Because Amata started her up and, his other half, popping up finished her off. Why did Mikono stop Amata? Because he was about to shoot himself (her reasoning afterwards is still really stupid though). Why is Kagura/Mikono or Amata/Mikono forbidden as far as Aquarion and Fudo are concerned? Because their not whole and are fragments, while Mikono/Sylvia/Celianne seems to be quite whole. Why did Amata appear in the second mirror TV broadcast for Zessica? Because that was the complete Amata, golden hair and golden eyes. (Next paragraph expands what I'm about to say as an aside, why did Mykage show Zessica the full scene? To shatter her heart even more and make completely defenseless against him.) (Also, its fairly evident that Mykage knows the legend of Celianne and Apollonius perfectly well, he makes that explicitly clear this episode, and he's fairlywell informed of the legend of Apollo and Sylvia, he just has no knowledge of the finer details (he's probably not Toma, therefore). The fake story he tells Kagura is very, very close to the story of Apollo and Sylvia with some details mucked up.)

A lot of old ?? are falling into place now with these reveals, and if anything, this episode did a good job in bringing up some rather obtuse inconsistencies from the plot of before and tying them together neatly. The biggest mystery left is what is the deal with his manipulation of Zessica. Her falling in love with Amata was of her own devices and preferential allusion in the first episode (made more clear in the BD to be honest). He's quick to use her but to what end? He made it no secret that he does not approve of her actually getting in the way of the old legend, and his promise about the gate may very easily have been for her to turn into a man, removing her as an obstacle. (Little else makes much sense right now.) Her promise was effectively to die for him/get out of the way and he gave her what she wanted: to be free from the pain.

She could well be dead even if this isn't what I'd expect from anime on how to kill a character.

Heck, I thought this was probably one of the better written episodes recently as it started putting the pieces together and showing that a lot of those wiggly, loose ends of the past actually were something and not just god awful writing. People are looking at this far too strictly with shipping goggles on, and the beauty in the details is getting lost over drama.

As a complete aside, what is this about thematics? This show has multiple thematics and if I have to, I'll dig through the old episode discussion to point out how many times people talked about exactly what has been convenient for pairing X, Y, or Z (everyone, even I myself).
(1.) The New Legend
~ When we were on the Kagura is Apollo train, this meant that Amata was going to break the cycle by ending up with Mikono.
(2.) The wings to fly above fate said by Alicia, repeated by Amata for movie episode.
~ See above.
(3.) Fight fate, what matters is what is true now.
~ See above.
I'm not kidding when I say that the themes of this show have been changing episode to episode as far posts are concerned in here and how people view said "themes". What are the themes as far as we've actually have confirmation from some sources or the story in and of itself?
Fight fate was in the interview spoilers that kuro translated a while back.
The story of the end is token.
The new legend is Fudo and he's back to it this last episode.
Forbidden Lovers if Mykage, Aquarion, and Fudo didn't make it clear enough.
Shrade is immortal, Cayenne's visions are confusing obviously this is a theme.

The fake story was based off of the movie, which was very close to what actually happened, minus a few key differences.

[kuromitsu]

Originally Posted by GoldenLand

(lots of stuff)

Exactly. You pretty much summed what I was trying to say all this time. ^^;; (Except about the reincarnations, but we'll see, we'll see.)


Re: themes, I still don't think that "new legend" was ever a theme. There was only one mention of a new legend in the entire series, and IMO it obviously meant Evol as a new series, with Amata as the new main chara (poor boy, if he only knew).

The themes I see in the show:
1) Forbidden gattai, the actual tagline of the series: literally the mixed gender gattai, and less literally, Mikono with Kagura/Amata (Amagura? lol)
2) The legend of the end/Owari wo daita shinwa: spoken by Fudou and Crea, pretty much seems to imply that the reincarnation cycle is going to end in one way or another.
3) Romance is forbidden: this actually hangs on the wall in Crea's office. It hasn't been mentioned lately, and apparently Aquarion doesn't really give a damn after all (maybe it just didn't like Donar)
4) Overcoming fate, introduced in ep 12, mentioned a number of times later, and quite forgotten recently.

[Vena]

Originally Posted by kuromitsu

Re: themes, I still don't think that "new legend" was ever a theme. There was only one mention of a new legend in the entire series, and IMO it obviously meant Evol as a new series, with Amata as the new main chara (poor boy, if he only knew).

The reason I say that "new legend" is a theme has to do with this episode, very heavily. Mykage is quite adamant and definitive in his position of seeing the legend repeat verbatim, I mean he says it outright when he interrupts Zessica. Fudo, on the other hand, talks of the legend repeating anew but given his past dialogue concerning the legends, he's talking about it repeating in structure but not characters. Top it off with the fact that Fudo and Mykage are definitive foils of one another, and I wouldn't be quick to dismiss this as an underlying theme but very veiled.

Also, how dare you not agree on the last theme!?

[Triple_R]

Those are certainly very interesting ideas and interpretations you've put forward there, Vena. Great work piecing all these clues together to come up with it.

I guess that some of us have simply lost faith in the writing of this show to the point that we (or at least I) never imagined they could manage something as carefully complex, detailed, and precise as what you just laid out.

I'm not 100% convinced that you're right (mainly since if you're right, I would think that the writers would have foreshadowed this better), but it's a very solid interpretation you have going right now. It would also serve to explain certain writing elements that many of us have found questionable.

[pingva]

Originally Posted by kuromitsu

4) Overcoming fate, introduced in ep 12, mentioned a number of times later, and quite forgotten recently.

It's not forgotten. This episode showed that Mykage wants to repeat the same old legend(he even out of fear of changing the old legend cuts off Zessica) which pretty much means that if you want to defeat Mykage you need to create a new legend, basically you need to do some drastic change in the old legend (change the fate).


The legend is about Angel falling in love with a human. It's a story about Apollonius falling in love with Celliane - the old legend which Mykage seeks. He says that Zessica and Amata shouldn't write their false tale which means that Mykage's plan would be ruined if Apollonius would fall in love with not Celliane or Celliane would fall in love with not Apollonius.

[kuromitsu]

Originally Posted by Vena

The reason I say that "new legend" is a theme has to do with this episode, very heavily. Mykage is quite adamant and definitive in his position of seeing the legend repeat verbatim, I mean he says it outright when he interrupts Zessica. Fudo, on the other hand, talks of the legend repeating anew but given his past dialogue concerning the legends, he's talking about it repeating in structure but not characters. Top it off with the fact that Fudo and Mykage are definitive foils of one another, and I wouldn't be quick to dismiss this as an underlying theme but very veiled.

I think this just plays into the "legend of the end" theme. Somehow the "legend" is going to end, and in the meanwhile, both Mykage and Fudou are trying to influence how it plays out. It's a new legend insofar as it's obviously different from what went on before, but it's not "new" as in "a new legend will start."

Originally Posted by Vena

Also, how dare you not agree on the last theme!?

? I didn't say I agreed or disagreed with either, I just listed them. The themes are there whether I like them or agree with them or not. ^^;; Btw no matter how much I agree with something this series has shown that it's perfectly possible to screw up the execution, so yeah.

Also, forgot to comment on this:

Originally Posted by Vena

Heck, I thought this was probably one of the better written episodes recently as it started putting the pieces together and showing that a lot of those wiggly, loose ends of the past actually were something and not just god awful writing. People are looking at this far too strictly with shipping goggles on, and the beauty in the details is getting lost over drama.

Coming up with a decent setup and decent story is one thing. Adapting that story to various media is another thing. (Me, I have several great ideas for stories in my head, well, I think they're pretty cool. But I suck at plotting so any attempts of writing them would fail miserably.) It's not simply the drama that make people not see the "beauty in the details," it's the entire execution of the story that pushed the main players into the background (to say nothing of poor Zessica), screwed up the focus and the pacing, and made many people lose interest in either all of the main characters, or just some of them. We all knew, or at least had some idea for why Mikono protected Kagura - at the very least, we knew there was something that we didn't know and would learn sooner or later. The problem is the way the scene and the aftermath was presented. (As I said back then, that "forgive him" must have something behind it, otherwise it's just plain wrong on every single level - but it not only hasn't been elaborated on since then, in any way, but the incident was pushed into the background so much we could only guess how it was influencing those involved. And of course everyone else's reaction was wtf.) Last minute revelations and pieces falling into place only work when there's proper foundation for them.

[BetoJR]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Especially from the perspective of a male viewer, it's very easy to feel sorry for Zessica, and to think "What is wrong with Amata?"

That very thought has certainly crossed my mind a few times, specially after that fabulous love declaration. But I'm still hopeful of some kind of resolution, here - even if not a happy one.

[miketyson]

Vena: that's a fantastic point and you pointed out a lot of things I hadn't noticed that this episode had cleared up.

Regarding themes, I'm not willing to try to make any guesses at the final themes that fit into short phrases like "fighting fate" -- it seems too soon for that -- but I'm thinking that overall the best-fit to what we've seen so far, where currently at, and where we're apparently going is that the eventual themes will mostly be very "down" on most aspects of the series' original mythology.

Not necessarily outright "this was bad/wrong", but more "down" on that front than I'd thought it'd be at first. Beyond that really hard to guess and speculate anything now.