Macross Frontier Character Discussion - Ranka Lee

[DeX-kun]

Originally Posted by magnuskn

WHAT exactly implies here that she knows for a certainty that she is the only cause which attracts the Vajra? If you imply that as a possibility, YOU need to come up with evidence that supports that. Otherwise you are making just a frank assumption of motives, which runs contrary to the stated motives.

Episode 21 (14:35-14:45)



This surely let's us know that she is very much aware of her influence on the Vajra (whether it be in a positive or a negative way.)

[magnuskn]

Originally Posted by DeX-kun

Episode 21 (14:35-14:45)

Uh, everybody knew that, from episode 16 forward. That's not the same as saying "Why do the Vajra only come for meeeee?".


And I am liking my wild-ass claim that Ranka is a Vajra infiltrator even more! That'd explain the amnesia, a safety mechanism so that she can more convincingly pass as a human! What, Ranshe? Brera? Bah, who cares about evidence and actual things which were said, that is for sissies! My crazy-eyed hypothesis sounds INTERESTING and CONTROVERSIAL!

[Yot-chan]

Originally Posted by magnuskn

Mostly you are throwing shit at the wall to see if it sticks. Problem is, you need supporting evidence for that.

I think we're talking on totally different wavelengths. I'm disagreeing with you, not attacking you.

[magnuskn]

Well, you might back that up with better replies than "So you don't have any. Okay.".

I just provided evidence ( and I don't mean for Ranka being a humanoid Vajra larva ). Provide some counter-evidence which isn't "but she secretly knew it all along!". "Secretly" doesn't work very well if she made clear claims why she was leaving.

Or take option two, that she may have known it but told nobody about it. Which seems ridiculous to me and leaves Ranka in a much worse light than I painted her in. But it's viable in that light. Takes her from "reckless and irresponsible" to "incredibly stupid and oblivious to others feelings. And still reckless and irresponsible ( for other reasons ).". Choose your poison.

I'm turning in for the night. College tomorrow, need to be awake enough to participate in discussions.

[Yot-chan]

Originally Posted by magnuskn

Well, you might back that up with better replies than "So you don't have any. Okay.".

Yes, that was snippy. Sorry.

Originally Posted by magnuskn

I just provided evidence ( and I don't mean for Ranka being a humanoid Vajra larva ).

You provided your opinions and inferences, which I disagree with.

Originally Posted by magnuskn

Provide some counter-evidence which isn't "but she secretly knew it all along!". "Secretly" doesn't work very well if she made clear claims why she was leaving.

Or take option two, that she may have known it but told nobody about it. Which seems ridiculous to me and leaves Ranka in a much worse light than I painted her in. But it's viable in that light. Takes her from "reckless and irresponsible" to "incredibly stupid and oblivious to others feelings". Choose your poison.

Look at the scene beforehand, where she tries to speak, but can't, and then asks Alto to teach her how to make a paper airplane. I find this scene pretty interesting, because I'm not sure if she's trying to make Alto calm, trying to make HERSELF calm, or just trying to delay the inevitable (or perhaps all three). She's clearly having a tough time figuring out how to communicate to Alto what she's going to do, and that she wants his help.

And of course, as soon as Ai-kun shows up, it's too late. And then Brera shows up, and it's REALLY too late. She doesn't have much time to explain herself...and what she ends up saying is completely inadequate.

Now, apart from the fact that having Alto think of Ranka as a traitor helps move the plot along, by binding him (and Sheryl) closer to the bad guys as the rest of SMS turns renegade, I don't know why the "Ai-kun" line is what she blurts out. Similarly, you don't know why. I have my theories, as do you.

I doubt our ideas overlap much.

But to say that your ideas are rooted in the show, and mine aren't, is just flat-out wrong.

[Swampstorm]

Sorry to jump into the middle, but this discussion is a bit difficult to follow (especially since people love throwing around vague statements like "Ranka is the key to the entire conflict," which sound impressive but don't actually mean a whole lot).

There are two points that I would like to see clarified:
1) What exactly does Ranka wish to achieve by leaving in episode 21, and why?
2) What specifically is Ranka's master plan in episode 21, and how exactly do Alto and Ai-kun fit into it? How does this achieve her goals from #1?

[DeX-kun]

Originally Posted by Swampstorm

Sorry to jump into the middle, but this discussion is a bit difficult to follow (especially since people love throwing around vague statements like "Ranka is the key to the entire conflict," which sound impressive but don't actually mean a whole lot).

There are two points that I would like to see clarified:
1) What exactly does Ranka wish to achieve by leaving in episode 21, and why?
2) What specifically is Ranka's master plan in episode 21, and how exactly do Alto and Ai-kun fit into it? How does this achieve her goals from #1?

1) Simply put, coexistence. That would be because it's the only way she felt that she could help both the people of Frontier and the Vajra.

2) I'm not sure I can be specific here but for the most part, she needs a way to travel to the Vajra home planet which is where Alto fits in to this. Ai-kun is the most important piece because he knows where the home planet is and he is the catalyst that should bring about peace between Humanity and the Vajra. How it achieves her goals should be self-explanatory.

[Yot-chan]

Originally Posted by Swampstorm

Sorry to jump into the middle, but this discussion is a bit difficult to follow (especially since people love throwing around vague statements like "Ranka is the key to the entire conflict," which sound impressive but don't actually mean a whole lot).

What's vague about it? The Vajra wanted Ranka. Yes, they were being manipulated by Grace/Galaxy, but there intention was soley to get Ranka. Doesn't that make her the key (or focal point, if you prefer) of the whole thing?

Originally Posted by Swampstorm

There are two points that I would like to see clarified:
1) What exactly does Ranka wish to achieve by leaving in episode 21, and why?
2) What specifically is Ranka's master plan in episode 21, and how exactly do Alto and Ai-kun fit into it? How does this achieve her goals from #1?

It's hard to tell, since it didn't come to fruition, and she didn't tell us about it. I've got my speculation, but it's merely that.

And I don't know what you mean by "her goals from #1." As far as I can recall, in #1, her goal was to get to the Sheryl concert.

[Natsuki Hyuga]

Originally Posted by Yot-chan

And I don't know what you mean by "her goals from #1." As far as I can recall, in #1, her goal was to get to the Sheryl concert.

Errr... Yot-chin, Swampy means about her goals in regards to the question no.1 that he asked~

Originally Posted by Swampy

1) What exactly does Ranka wish to achieve by leaving in episode 21, and why?

Just remember to play nice everyone, and don't get too heated up by the debate. As in, don't get too... Personally offended. All is good in discussing, and I'm sure none of us actually intends to attack another

[Yot-chan]

Originally Posted by Natsuki Hyuga

Errr... Yot-chin, Swampy means about her goals in regards to the question no.1 that he asked~

Ah. Well, again, we can only speculate, because it didn't happen.

[magnuskn]

Originally Posted by Yot-chan

Look at the scene beforehand, where she tries to speak, but can't, and then asks Alto to teach her how to make a paper airplane. I find this scene pretty interesting, because I'm not sure if she's trying to make Alto calm, trying to make HERSELF calm, or just trying to delay the inevitable (or perhaps all three). She's clearly having a tough time figuring out how to communicate to Alto what she's going to do, and that she wants his help.

And of course, as soon as Ai-kun shows up, it's too late. And then Brera shows up, and it's REALLY too late. She doesn't have much time to explain herself...and what she ends up saying is completely inadequate.

Now, apart from the fact that having Alto think of Ranka as a traitor helps move the plot along, by binding him (and Sheryl) closer to the bad guys as the rest of SMS turns renegade, I don't know why the "Ai-kun" line is what she blurts out. Similarly, you don't know why. I have my theories, as do you.

I doubt our ideas overlap much.

But to say that your ideas are rooted in the show, and mine aren't, is just flat-out wrong.

Look, we got what she SAID against what you THINK SHE MIGHT HAVE SAID. She didn't mention anything about knowing for certain that she was the sole reason for the Vajra to show up. She had enough time. Alto only got on his spiel about "killing all Vajra" when she turned the topic to it, before that he was listening to her.

I am sorry, but your logic is wrong. You cannot claim out of nowhere that the absence of evidence suggests that there is evidence, if there is already existing evidence to the contrary.

[Father Hentai]

Originally Posted by Swampstorm

Sorry to jump into the middle, but this discussion is a bit difficult to follow (especially since people love throwing around vague statements like "Ranka is the key to the entire conflict," which sound impressive but don't actually mean a whole lot).

There are two points that I would like to see clarified:
1) What exactly does Ranka wish to achieve by leaving in episode 21, and why?
2) What specifically is Ranka's master plan in episode 21, and how exactly do Alto and Ai-kun fit into it? How does this achieve her goals from #1?

To reply on your questions:

1) Her wish is to complete the missing fragments in her head. She finally knows she is involved in the destruction of the fleet. So her goal is to go back from where it started and to find out what her exact role was. As far as I remember to star date it is for her still unclear that she was the reason what attracted the Vajra or she could not complete the puzzle to this yet. This memory came up, wenn she was caught by Grace.

2) She opened herself to Alto as she is assuming he will help her. But as he is more focussed on the defense of Frontier (I use another formulation here rather than saying he is deaf for other options than killing the Vajra). The casualties episodes before drives him into protecting the people he loves (Sheryl as well as Ranka although she leaves, as well as the other people around him).

The connection to Ai-kun is that he is different from the other Vajra. The question is why is he different. We assumed that the Vajra are brainless giant insect bugs who are only killing (Hi Starship troopers?). I think without Ai-kun she would also be able to to fly to the vajra planet but this would mean that Ai-kun might get hurt or killed, which on the other side would negate the theory that the Vajra can be peacefull as well. Best solution to this is to take it with her.

[Swampstorm]

Originally Posted by DeX-kun

1) Simply put, coexistence. That would be because it's the only way she felt that she could help both the people of Frontier and the Vajra.

That sounds reasonable enough. But why should she care? Episode 19 seemed to show that Ranka really wasn't interested in grand ideals like being the savior of Frontier (let alone both Frontier and the Vajra). What changed, why, and when?

Originally Posted by DeX-kun

2) I'm not sure I can be specific here but for the most part, she needs a way to travel to the Vajra home planet which is where Alto fits in to this. Ai-kun is the most important piece because he knows where the home planet is and he is the catalyst that should bring about peace between Humanity and the Vajra. How it achieves her goals should be self-explanatory.

I rather like this plan. But if that's the case, then wouldn't it be easier for Ranka to simply say "I'm going to have Ai-kun tell the Vajra to call off their troops"?

Originally Posted by Yot-chan

What's vague about it? The Vajra wanted Ranka. Yes, they were being manipulated by Grace/Galaxy, but there intention was soley to get Ranka. Doesn't that make her the key (or focal point, if you prefer) of the whole thing?

While being the "key to the whole conflict" is certainly a cool plot title that one might want to show off to their friends, but it doesn't actually provide any insight into a possible course of action. It's a bit like being a "protagonist of the whole story".

Even if the Vajra want Ranka, that doesn't necessarily mean that she wants to let them get to her - depending on what they actually intend to do with her.

Originally Posted by Yot-chan

It's hard to tell, since it didn't come to fruition, and she didn't tell us about it. I've got my speculation, but it's merely that.

I don't mind speculation, especially when people qualify it as such. When you were watching the story, surely you must have had some sort of a dominant interpretation that linked all the pieces together?

Originally Posted by Father Hentai

1) Her wish is to complete the missing fragments in her head. She finally knows she is involved in the destruction of the fleet. So her goal is to go back from where it started and to find out what her exact role was. As far as I remember to star date it is for her still unclear that she was the reason what attracted the Vajra or she could not complete the puzzle to this yet. This memory came up, wenn she was caught by Grace.

This is an interesting explanation, especially since she's just witnessed the destruction of a second home, and now's certainly a good time to start thinking about what's causing the trend. But it's also a fairly narrow goal, given the fact that it comes late in the series. I think part of the negative reaction to Ranka comes from people's expectations that she do something grand and heroic, given her role as a protagonist of the series (or "key to the entire conflict", if you prefer.)

But DeX seems to have something in mind that might fit along those lines, if I'm not mistaken.

[Father Hentai]

Originally Posted by Swampstorm

This is an interesting explanation, especially since she's just witnessed the destruction of a second home, and now's certainly a good time to start thinking about what's causing the trend. But it's also a fairly narrow goal, given the fact that it comes late in the series. I think part of the negative reaction to Ranka comes from people's expectations that she do something grand and heroic, given her role as a protagonist of the series (or "key to the entire conflict", if you prefer.)

But DeX seems to have something in mind that might fit along those lines, if I'm not mistaken.

I think it is explained in the letter she left for Ozma before she departed.

[wisteria233]

I personally believe that both opinions given are just speculation, regardless of how one feels

On one hand you have people saying that Ranka didn't care about Frontier and the situation it was in, and their evidence is the fact that when we did see Ranka in episodes 19-21 and especially 20 she didn't spare any thought to the destruction around her, instead focusing on her own memories, and her connection to the Vajra, rather than the plight of the people around. But it was never stated that she didn't care about Frontier.

And on the other hand you have those saying that Ranka did care about Frontier using the basis and went with Brera and Ai-kun to find out how to end the conflict, and that she remembered what happened to her previous home, so she might have at least wanted to protect her home. However, this is speculation because we never see Ranka acknowledge the destruction around her only her own feelings nothing in her actions and thoughts suggested otherwise, and the fact she never actually said that she wanted to end the conflict that was a by product of the plot helping her. Also if what she did really did resonate with fans then why did Kawamori recieve so much criticism for her character? Why did he have to change her character for the movie?

I also wouldn't put money on the re-watch changing everyone's views as while re-watching can change someone's views on a subject, it can also solidify others.

[justavisitor]

hmm, hold on, how do you know Kawamori has received many criticism about Ranka? Do you happen to know how many emails Kawamori have received each day that is about Ranka??...if you wanna say internet users, do you know how many TV audience have expressed their views in internet??


Plus imo I don't think Kawamori has changed Ranka much in the movie

I agree with the first half in your posts that opinions from both sides are probably more and less based on speculation, but then it seems like you make your speculation in the second half of the post (the part where you say Kawamori has received so much criticism about Ranka's character)

[Father Hentai]

I would not say that she did not care for the people of Frontier, but it is clear that she is only singing for one person.

Now here is the connection to Ai-kun and her fragmented memories. While the one important person cannot hear (the message of) her song, the Vajra can. We can now put a theory that she puzzled this together and the only way - for her - to understand why they can understand her is to go back to where it all started.

From this point it makes sense why she leaves the frontier and why she has dediced to go her own way. It may look suicide but in any open confrontation it is suicide if you fight against the vajra. And the way Leon has decided to maneuver the fleet is suicide as well. Just my cents to the theory that Rankas move was a suicide maneuver.

[magnuskn]

Originally Posted by justavisitor

hmm, hold on, how do you know Kawamori has received many criticism about Ranka? Do you happen to know how many emails Kawamori have received each day that is about Ranka??...if you wanna say internet users, do you know how many TV audience have expressed their views in internet??

Oh, please. You really think all the Ranka hatorade totally escaped Kawamoris attention? Try some less disingenous argument.

[wisteria233]

Originally Posted by justavisitor

hmm, hold on, how do you know Kawamori has received many criticism about Ranka? Do you happen to know how many emails Kawamori have received each day that is about Ranka??...if you wanna say internet users, do you know how many TV audience have expressed their views in internet??


Plus imo I don't think Kawamori has changed Ranka much in the movie

I agree with the first half in your posts that opinions from both sides are probably more and less based on speculation, but then it seems like you make your speculation in the second half of the post (the part where you say Kawamori has received so much criticism about Ranka's character)

Seems someone was asleep for the past couple of years. Yes a lot of people did have problems with Ranka's character in the television, and Kawamori did recieve criticism for her character (not just on this forum). Ranka used to (and maybe she still is) get trashed in Japanese forums even in the places that loved loli moe characters.

I haven't seen the movie yet (don't have time), but from the different reviews I've heard from different people from different camps she did change. So your in the minority for that.

Originally Posted by Father Hentai

I would not say that she did not care for the people of Frontier, but it is clear that she is only singing for one person.

Now here is the connection to Ai-kun and her fragmented memories. While the one important person cannot hear (the message of) her song, the Vajra can. We can now put a theory that she puzzled this together and the only way - for her - to understand why they can understand her is to go back to where it all started.

From this point it makes sense why she leaves the frontier and why she has dediced to go her own way. It may look suicide but in any open confrontation it is suicide if you fight against the vajra. And the way Leon has decided to maneuver the fleet is suicide as well. Just my cents to the theory that Rankas move was a suicide maneuver.

Problem is Ranka wasn't shown to care, we do get to her side of the story and not once does she bring up her home, and it stood out against the rest of the cast that actually did think about Frontier. Ranka wasn't shown to care, that's why its speculation to say that she did. Ranka's maneuver was a suicide maneuver especially after episode 20 where her song actually did fail to calm them down. I can't give her credit for what happened in the last episode because that wasn't Ranka's doing, that was the plot working its way to make everything better. If Alto and Sheryl weren't there and the plot were crueler she probably wouldn't have been around for the ending.

[justavisitor]

Originally Posted by wisteria233

Seems someone was asleep for the past couple of years. Yes a lot of people did have problems with Ranka's character in the television, and Kawamori did recieve criticism for her character (not just on this forum). Ranka used to (and maybe she still is) get trashed in Japanese forums even in the places that loved loli moe characters.

Then again, can you show me the number I was asking for?? You are just restating what you said basically

I am not gonna discuss the movie part with you since you haven't seen the movie yet