2012-05-20, 20:24 | Link #28941 |
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I've never actually thought about why Ikuko had the Book of One Truth which I believe is synonymous with Eva's diary. Was it stated in text how she got it?
Eva must have somehow gotten in contact with Battler/Tohya after the incident. There's a reason Eva was hiding it. I don't play with George culprit theory, and I know Eva is not Prime's culprit. But she knew Battler was alive and she hid even that from Ange. As I think about that Higurashi's "Demon Script" plays into my mind... Also, talking about how the diary got into Ikuko's hands... how did it get into Featherine's? Bernkastel (a miracle) took it from Ange (Resurrection/Truth) who got it from the Chapel. Has the significance of the chapel ever been discussed like this? As in there's more to the chapel than just the sacrifices for the epitaph. What the heck happened in the chapel that night?
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2012-05-20, 22:11 | Link #28942 | |
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Might be wrong on the specifics, 'cause I'm too lazy to go to my laptop and check, but it definitely involved a nurse finding it, and some shady purchase. Assuming you choose to believe her, anyways. Assuming Ikuko did have possession of Battler pretty much since October of 1986, I guess it wouldn't be ... too crazy to assume she paid Eva a visit at some point... Would've been hella awkward. |
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2012-05-21, 05:05 | Link #28943 | |
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Join Date: Apr 2012
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How nice of her never to mention it to Eva that she totally had Battler....
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2012-05-22, 05:14 | Link #28949 | |
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As for the mystery, having never read any mysteries I found it quite enjoyable (though I accept it was cliche, however Ryu sort of implied he knew that and was waiting for people to figure it out to crank up the difficulty, but the audience at large did not). Aside from that it was an interesting tale with a good message, a new take with the whole lying in narrative thing, and also it was solvable for the most part. So i would say not too bad on the whole. |
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2012-05-22, 06:01 | Link #28951 | |
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Sometimes, though, I gotta wonder what the hell the Japanese fandom was thinking at certain points. I only have the story in it's finished state to go by, and apparently EP5 happened because people STILL heavily suspected Natsuhi at that point or something ... and some people decided it was unsolvable after Kanon drew his blade in Turn ... and I just don't ... understand how one could come to those conclusions? Even without a basic familiarity with mysteries? I mean, I've always enjoyed golden age mystery tropes, but was by no means a buff. My understanding is that the Japanese also have a rather notable history with the genre, too, so ... I dunno. I WONDER ABOUT THOSE READERS SOMETIMES. |
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2012-05-22, 06:40 | Link #28952 | |
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Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Ruins of the Golden Land
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Plus, that sort of cliche usually have some charm for most readers. It varies from person to person.
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Last edited by Captain Bluebeard; 2012-05-22 at 07:19. |
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2012-05-22, 09:03 | Link #28953 | |
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Join Date: Apr 2012
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I don't really have a problem with the setting, mystery writers (and especially in this case) often need to close off their characters from the outside world somehow. Besides, you are forgetting for the Japanese it would be more unusual for such a rich and old family to be so Western, in fact it was sort of the point. I guess it would be similar for us to read a ghost story set in a house that turns out to be inhabited by demons the next day, and all the delicious food you ate was maggots etc (sort of a Japanese staple I think).
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As for the Japanese readers, I can sort of understand people who were trying to explain it as a mystery getting stuck with the whole Kanon blade thing. For anyone who hasn't seen it happen before it is a big leap to simply say the author is lying, because then what do you trust? (Though I guess the presence of the red truths really should have taught them stuff could be a lie, but we didn't know about Battler's objective perspective until after EP 4). Wouldn't it have been interesting if Ryu's fanbase had all actually read some golden age novels? Battler would have been more competent for one thing. And Ryu would have had to create some interesting tricks, because as Erika stated, most of the sensible ways to create a closed room murder have already been thought of and solved. If they were going to be as good as the super long and twist filled journey of the bodies in TW1 game 1 (come on, you know he did a good job with that one) then I really would have liked to read it. |
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2012-05-22, 11:49 | Link #28954 | |
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This just makes the message... confused? Ange's life was not really any better for her retreat into her personal (and in her case, quite dark) fantasies. And certainly he piled on the tragedy with her, to the point that it seems like you couldn't help but think he was saying it was unhealthy. But then he sometimes suggests otherwise, especially in Requiem/Twilight. And further, he offers no real alternative except "have a happier delusion," and he doesn't even really commit to that either. If his goal was to portray some kind of happy medium between cynical adherence to reality (anti-fantasy?) and useless escapism from real problems (anti-mystery?), it didn't come together in the end as a really obvious "answer" that the author seemed to actually be endorsing. Even the notion that Ange could move on and channel her imagination in a more productive manner wasn't as thematically addressed as it probably should have been. The elements are there, it just feels half-assembled at times. And then at other times he just seems to have been going off the rails entirely, from a moral standpoint. Sympathy for mass murder, covering up possible crimes (or failing to expose an earnest accident), justifying Kinzo's behavior at some points or condemning it at others, etc.
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2012-05-22, 12:09 | Link #28955 | |
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Well, I think he wanted the readers to come to their own conclusions on the moral issues in the story. One of the major themes of the story seems to be that he wants you to keep thinking about it - that's why he provided such cryptic answers to the closed rooms and the culprit's motive, after all.
The varying opinions on these issues come from different characters, most of the time. It's hardly a surprise that different people have different views on these things. Also... Quote:
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2012-05-22, 12:52 | Link #28956 |
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I think the problem is that people like to cast what the real Ange did as delusion. I think what Ryukishi was trying to say (and was not quite clear enough is) that there's a difference between Maria's unwavering hope in her mother loving her and being slowly destroyed by it versus Ange-Prime's unwavering hope that Battle or her family will return. Ryukishi needed to cast the difference better here though, but I think a can sort of understand some of the themes here.
Unfortunately calling this "delusion" really leads to dead end thinking, as if anyone who's ever had a loved one go missing is delusional to think they could return. This is the problem with the fanbase on the internet, it's to easy to resort to negative, thinking-shut-down ideas. Which Ryukishi definitely used to his advantage. 8) |
2012-05-22, 12:56 | Link #28957 | |
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2012-05-22, 14:24 | Link #28959 | |||
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The "Pieces can't do what their real selves couldn't" thing is complete bullshit and always has been. It's a handwave he used to plug up a plothole but it doesn't hold water. Quote:
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She also taught Maria's magic 'read: total delusion' to a bunch of orphans, complete with a Beatrice painting. Even if you argue that she herself is not delusional per se, Yukari sure seems to be endorsing it.
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2012-05-22, 15:50 | Link #28960 | |||
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Well, I guess when it comes to mystery, themes like that are the most charming, and are fun to experiment on, it's just not very original. Quote:
Since I'm not that well-read when it comes to the genre of mystery, I wouldn't know about the Closed Rooms, but I think his approach to them was very inspiring. Quote:
And Battler did come back after all, didn't he? Keeping an even naive hope alive never killed anyone (provided that she wasn't encouraged by it to go to extremes).
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