Higurashi Kai Episode 19 Discussion / Poll

[MarthX]

Not much explaination?

End of 13: The gang says the miracle didn't occur because Hanyuu wasn't with them.
End of 15: Hanyuu challenges Takano, saying we will not lose to your strong will.
End of 18: Rika says that Hanyuu is the last piece needed to beat Takano
beginning of 19: Hanyuu explains that it's necesasary for everyone to work together to beat fate
Mid 19: Hanyuu explains that she's been running from every fight, afraid of losing but now realizes that she can't win like that.

She remembered Takano being the culprit because this is the first time she knew. You can't remember what you never knew.

Irie doesn't like to keep anything from Rika but the emergency manual 34 was an exception. He probably felt she didn't need to know. But when she seriously asked about it, he couldn't help but tell her. That's how I interrupted the scene. I'm sure in the game it took a lot longer to convince Irie to spill the beans but then you'd complain about the slow pace.

To me the whole Mion scene was just a way to make the situation perfectly clear to the viewer. It was already kind of obvious what was going on. The scene just connected the dots in case you haven't already.

[Davidj]

[QUOTE=Matrim;1258964]I

guess I am the only who was quite disappointed by this episode. Maybe I was in too cynical mood when I watched it.

Hanyuu just decides to quit being just a spectator and takes a human form without much explanation. Why didn't she do that earlier?

Not wanting to killed is a part of it. She's staking a centuries-old existence on this gamble and if everything else hadn't been in place she would lose.

She remembered Takano being the culprit which has never happened before - way too convenient

.

Rika probably never refused the anesthetic before.

Irie tells Rika about the contigency plan to exterminate Hinamizawa's population just like that.

Rika never asked him before.

Mion is suddenly Sherlock Holmes and figures out the faction rivalry in the Tokyo group.

Mion is acquainted with the politics of criminal organisations.

Akasaka happens to return to Hinamizawa in time for the final showdown.

Hm. Shion isn't there though.

Everyone "remembers' Hanyuu.

The only person (apart from Rika) who remembers Hanyuu is Rena, and since Rena saw a vision of Hanyuu last episode, that's no great mystery.

[BakaOnna]

Mion is suddenly Sherlock Holmes and figures out the faction rivalry in the Tokyo group.

Well she's the heir of the Sonozaki house, who are basically the yakuza, if I'm not mistaken. She should understand what goes on with politics and conspiracies between political factions.

And as the others have already stated, much of Hanyuu's resolves were developed during the Pieces.

[HashiriyaR32]

The first half of the episode was nothing more than a big LMAO-fest!!

And somehow I knew that silver-haired woman was voiced by Rie Tanaka (Suigintou's seiyuu) even before I saw the credits.

[The Bloodlust Kid]

Originally Posted by FlareKnight

Well maybe it was being in a cynical mood . Most of the things weren't touigh to figure out from my position.

With Hanyuu not taking human form earlier. They certainly went over why she wanted to get involved and quit just standing around. I'd guess that turning into that form takes up some real energy that she didn't want to use before. They had been waiting for the right world that could allow them to finally win. But Hanyuu realized that sitting around isn't going to get you the victory. Seeing how hard everyone tried and the encouragement to join them pushed her to fight. So even if it used up some of the reserves it had to be done.

For remembering Takano. Well most of the times they had been drugged up so of course they never remembered. We saw the connection earlier in the series with the food so drugs would probably work the same way on both. But the last time they had avoided that and Rika had done everything to burn that memory into her mind. While the low reserves prohibited Rika remembering and nearly Hanyuu, Takano in all her creepiness did a nice job jogging the memory.

I'd admit the Ire bit did seem a little easy. Do wonder what on earth Rika asked to get the answer out of him. But I guess because she encouraged him with giving Satoko the treatment a few episodes ago he felt more able to be open with her and tell her more about things.

Don't think Mion is too bad. As some said she has a lot of experience being in the Sonozoki clan and being prepared to be the head. So heavier things like political maneuvering and conspiracies might be easier for her to wrap her head around than for the others.

Akasaka...Well I'd go with the obvious that seeing Hinamizawa in the file of the case that had been dropped triggered the memory. Digging in a bit out he found that all the cases had turned out perfectly so he had to head out. Do think if they added a piece about him it'd be even more obvious why he was out there.

Maybe you could call some convenient, but it's not like there aren't explanations for them. Besides we're talking a small girl going up against Takano and a massive conspiracy like this. A bit of help from the powers at be 'even more than Hanyuu ' can't hurt things.

QFT. Though the ending where Mion describes the conspiracies confused me a bit. I take it that Suigintou was never in the games in the first place? This'll be interesting.

Hanyuu is way too moe-cute. I can't take her seriously at all.

Great job, you finally caught up with everybody else!

[Matrim]

Rika never asked him before.

This doesn't explain why he should tell her the truth - that the village will be destroyed. And considering Rika has died so many times and was desperately trying to figure out why, it's totally implausible that it had never occured to her to ask Irie what he and his superior plan to do if the Queen Carrier dies suddenly.

Not wanting to killed is a part of it. She's staking a centuries-old existence on this gamble and if everything else hadn't been in place she would lose.

Oh, well, if she can take human form, why shouldn't she be able to go back to ghost when need be? Well, I am exaggerating but this whole affair of her turning into human with horns while no one finds that weird, even though Rika was not supposed to have alive relatives, is pushing my suspension of disbelief too much. It feels as if the writer really wanted to end the story, so he forced a lot of developments.

Mion is acquainted with the politics of criminal organisations.

And that makes her Sherlock Holmes? There could have been many reasons for the Tokyo group to want to destroy Hinamizawa, Mion solved the case so fast, there was almost no time for her to say "Elementary, my dear Watson". I think it would have been better if Rena had solved, she has already shown her detective skills.

The only person (apart from Rika) who remembers Hanyuu is Rena, and since Rena saw a vision of Hanyuu last episode, that's no great mystery.

Er, the others also said that it felt as if they had known her for a long time.

[k//eternal]

Originally Posted by Matrim

I think it would have been better if Rena had solved, she has already shown her detective skills.

The fact that Rena has already demonstrated this ability is exactly why it was Mion's turn this time. And as stated, it's exactly the sort of problem the yakuza would be expected to have to deal with.

That said, yes, Matsuribayashi DOES involve a ton of convenient and fortunate coincidences. If you don't like that, I think Miotsukushi would be much more to your taste, haha...

[cereal_killerxx]

Originally Posted by k//eternal

The fact that Rena has already demonstrated this ability is exactly why it was Mion's turn this time. And as stated, it's exactly the sort of problem the yakuza would be expected to have to deal with.

That said, yes, Matsuribayashi DOES involve a ton of convenient and fortunate coincidences. If you don't like that, I think Miotsukushi would be much more to your taste, haha...

I'm not as drunk as you think I are @_@ Anyways, with that being said, I really like the conventient circumstances. It shows that fate is finally dealing them a good hand. Now all that's needed is the strategy and the miracle, and we can finally see that *ahem* stupid woman brought to justice xD

[Eryops]

Originally Posted by June 1983

Rika doesn't lose her past worlds' memories, only the memories just before her death. She still remembers everything else.

Except for the memories from Minagoroshi-hen; she seems to have forgotten everything that took place there.

One theory I've read is that Frederica temporarily possesses Rika in some points (e.g. the meeting with Akasaka) even before her arrival in a world, but that seems both ad hoc and inelegant. Maybe someone should email Ryukishi07 and ask him about it.

Originally Posted by Matrim

Oh, well, if she can take human form, why shouldn't she be able to go back to ghost when need be? Well, I am exaggerating but this whole affair of her turning into human with horns while no one finds that weird, even though Rika was not supposed to have alive relatives, is pushing my suspension of disbelief too much. It feels as if the writer really wanted to end the story, so he forced a lot of developments.

One of the pieces implies that Hanyuu is now using her last chip; the reason she hadn't assumed human form before is that if she loses now then the her defeat will be permanent. It makes sense that she hadn't resorted to that before. Though I agree it is a bit strange that almost everyone ignores her horns.

[theacefrehley]

Originally Posted by Klashikari

Just think what happened in Minagoroshi-hen in stark contrast with the other chapters: Akasaka believed Rika and saved Yukie, making him "useless" as he never heard the happy "murders foretelling".

When Rika "returns back in the time", any actions she did in the past is "set in stone". However, some factors can lead into different consequences.
Akasaka's situation is the best example.
Rika's action: warn Akasaka, asking him to get back to Tokyo.
Possibilities:
1) very very low: Akasaka trusted Rika's "intuition" and saves Yukie.
2) most of the time: Akasaka stays in Hinamizawa.

From point 2, there are various possibilities (Akasaka dies against the yamainu, etc).

AND THEN, some factors might make him remember about what Rika told him, the bizarre incidents in Hinamizawa.


Hanyuu's powers must be considered as a "reset the worlds, with factors shaping the most redundant points, while random factors kick in".
The later point is uncontrollable, and lead to some very different consequences (exemple: the "doll" scene).
When Hanyuu's "reboot" everything, changing into another "reality" or "dimension" (rather than timeline), the world itself is shaped with some randomization and "luck".
Thus, some events can be avoided and such. In such regards, Shion may or may not be with everyone, that really depends of everything. (as you can see, several batshit events might happen at the SAME TIME. I think some people might know what i'm talking about)

I guess somewhere they say
"the stronger the will, the higher the chance of things to become fate"

Shion going to the school
Rena talking to her Dad about Rina
The Doll incident
Akasaka taking Rika seriously or not
Ooishi being a good guy with the kids
etc...

All of these events depend on luck, in every world they might or might not turn out in a good way for Rika. By coincidence, in Minagoroshi most of them turned out good to Rika.

On the other way round there are events that always happen because there's a strong will wanting them to happen anyway (not necessarily only Takano)

[Seiryuu]

One of my first thoughts on this episode was that finally Rena is being portrayed in what I've heard is her true game character. She doesn't stand there drooling and talking about taking things home, she takes the first possible opportunity to grab them and take them. Even so, did they have to tie Rena up with the same S&M pervert knot from the Inukami fellow?
If I understood this right, Hanyuu's a god, and has been able to use her power to repeatedly resurrect Rika by moving her soul into a past causal path. This takes incredible power, even for a god, and she's already been shown to be weakening by how short the jump was when everything came out. Finally, she's exhausted her power and become human, albeit a human with oddly adorable horns. I guess something about possessing a god's power made her stand slightly outside of the natural flow, so she couldn't be seen or heard very well. Now, however, her powers are gone, and she's become completely a part of this timeline, and so anchored is completely present with everyone.
I don't think it's surprising that Irie didn't tell Rika about #34. For one thing, Rika, not knowing who to trust, probably never directly asked about what the government would do in response to her death. I mean, she never knew for sure how much hope she had in any world, so she couldn't throw it away by alerting her enemy. Now that she knows who the enemy is, she's directly pursuing the matter with those who are her allies. Anyway, #34 doesn't sound like something that would come up in conversation, and Irie wouldn't waste time telling people about eventualities that he has to give his all to prevent. Just like he doesn't reveal to Satoko how sick she is, but instead focuses on finding a way to cure her.

[Archuka]

Originally Posted by Matrim

Oh, well, if she can take human form, why shouldn't she be able to go back to ghost when need be? Well, I am exaggerating but this whole affair of her turning into human with horns while no one finds that weird, even though Rika was not supposed to have alive relatives, is pushing my suspension of disbelief too much. It feels as if the writer really wanted to end the story, so he forced a lot of developments.

I find it a little bit too unbelievable as well, though I feel it's more about forcing moe than wanting to end the story. I actually think the series would have been better off without so much moe in it. It works at times but usually I go when watching these early episodes of an arc.

The scene with Irie and Rika was hard to accept as well. I find it quite incredible that he would tell what appears to be a little girl of an emergency plan that involves wiping out the village. An ordinary girl of her age would probably be traumatized if told something like that by a figure of authority like Irie (being a doctor and all).

Likewise, a girl of Rika's biological age couldn't possibly come up with the kind of plot she was planning for her "manga", so you'd think her older friends would find it strange. Oh and Rika and Satoko would not be allowed to live together in a house without any adults. Things like this I feel are the one weakness the whole series suffers from. If the story was ever re-written in a more believe form I could see it becoming a world wide success as a novel series.

[MarthX]

The scene with Irie and Rika was hard to accept as well. I find it quite incredible that he would tell what appears to be a little girl of an emergency plan that involves wiping out the village. An ordinary girl of her age would probably be traumatized if told something like that by a figure of authority like Irie (being a doctor and all).

Rika already knows that she's the Queen Carrier and if she's killed, everyone will enter the terminal stage. She knows all about Hinamizawa Syndrome. This was all explained to her several years ago before she agreed to help with their research. Rika is no ordinary girl.

Likewise, a girl of Rika's biological age couldn't possibly come up with the kind of plot she was planning for her "manga", so you'd think her older friends would find it strange.

Perhaps they did feel it weird but they're not going to say anything. That would be rude. Rika is their friend. Besides she's already shown in the past to have abnormal intellect for her age. Mion even comments on this in one of the Pieces; Saying that sometimes she feels like she's actually the younger one.

. Oh and Rika and Satoko would not be allowed to live together in a house without any adults.

Rika and Satoko live together but Irie provides them with living money. You could say he's their unofficial caretaker. Living together was probably Rika's idea and no one is going to question her. We already know how much the villagers kiss her ass.

[Proto]

Likewise, a girl of Rika's biological age couldn't possibly come up with the kind of plot she was planning for her "manga", so you'd think her older friends would find it strange.

Everyone already knows that Rika is a little(very) mature for their age, so most possibly they have learned to cope and live with it. Nevertheless, we have yet to see the rest of the episodes to see if this revelation has any further repercussion.

And that makes her Sherlock Holmes? There could have been many reasons for the Tokyo group to want to destroy Hinamizawa, Mion solved the case so fast, there was almost no time for her to say "Elementary, my dear Watson". I think it would have been better if Rena had solved, she has already shown her detective skills.

This is just my personal opinion, but I would guess that he got the tip (sort of) from her previous self in Yoigoshi-hen (manga arc) world. If that's the case that would explain why he sees conspirationist theories everywhere .

[Matrim]

That said, yes, Matsuribayashi DOES involve a ton of convenient and fortunate coincidences. If you don't like that, I think Miotsukushi would be much more to your taste, haha...

Well, then too bad it's not going to be animated, I just read on wikipedia that apparently it's the bittersweet real ending of Higurashi.

I find it a little bit too unbelievable as well, though I feel it's more about forcing moe than wanting to end the story. I actually think the series would have been better off without so much moe in it. It works at times but usually I go when watching these early episodes of an arc.

I actually liked most early episode but Hanyuu made it too much moe this time around, it almost came through as a device to take the attention of the viewers from the plot holes and convenient coincidences. Well, they better make this human form Hanyuu really help the cause of Riak and the rest to justify it all - shouldn't a ghost form have been more helpful with her ability to spy on Takano and her minions without being seen?

[yangxu]

Is Shion gonna come into play any time soon?
The gang wouldn't bet complete without her as everyone's effort to cope with fate is a mandatory requirement for success.

[Davidj]

Originally Posted by Matrim

This doesn't explain why he should tell her the truth - that the village will be destroyed. And considering Rika has died so many times and was desperately trying to figure out why, it's totally implausible that it had never occured to her to ask Irie what he and his superior plan to do if the Queen Carrier dies suddenly.



Oh, well, if she can take human form, why shouldn't she be able to go back to ghost when need be? Well, I am exaggerating but this whole affair of her turning into human with horns while no one finds that weird, even though Rika was not supposed to have alive relatives, is pushing my suspension of disbelief too much. It feels as if the writer really wanted to end the story, so he forced a lot of developments.



And that makes her Sherlock Holmes? There could have been many reasons for the Tokyo group to want to destroy Hinamizawa, Mion solved the case so fast, there was almost no time for her to say "Elementary, my dear Watson". I think it would have been better if Rena had solved, she has already shown her detective skills.

Well Mion's suggestion as to why it was happened didn't matter for the plot. It was just for the really slow in the audience who need such things spelled out. As for Rika, I believed she was caught just as much anyone else by the idea of Oyashiro-Sama's curse, not of course that the kami was out to get her, but that she was constantly dying because someone always succumbed to the syndrome during Watanagashi and went after her. It was only the last time that it occured to her that her killer actually had a motive beyond paranoia.

Of course undeniably, in the final story a lot of "coincidences" have to happen. But of course they aren't coincidences at all. The supernatural element is very real. What's the point in having a god on your side if your prayers can't be answered?

[RadiumEyes]

Originally Posted by Archuka

The scene with Irie and Rika was hard to accept as well. I find it quite incredible that he would tell what appears to be a little girl of an emergency plan that involves wiping out the village. An ordinary girl of her age would probably be traumatized if told something like that by a figure of authority like Irie (being a doctor and all).

Considering that Rika already knows the whole Hinamizawa shebang makes it easier for Irie to tell her about the emergency plan. Plus, I do presume that Irie is taking into account Rika's reactions to past revelations (that she is the Queen Carrier).

As for Rika being traumatized, we all know Rika is not ordinary.

Originally Posted by Davidj

Of course undeniably, in the final story a lot of "coincidences" have to happen. But of course they aren't coincidences at all. The supernatural element is very real. What's the point in having a god on your side if your prayers can't be answered?

Agreed. Plus, it looks like the process of "changing fate" is already starting.

[Matrim]

Of course undeniably, in the final story a lot of "coincidences" have to happen. But of course they aren't coincidences at all. The supernatural element is very real. What's the point in having a god on your side if your prayers can't be answered?

That would have been a valid argument had we actually seen Hanyuu using her supernatural powers to make all these "coincidences" happen. As far as I understand it, it was not some godly power that made Irie spill the beans about the emergency plan, Hanyuu didn't make Akasaka magically remember Irie's clinic at the right time when he would be needed or enchanted the villagers not to be bothered by her horns. If she did all that and we were just not shown it (or I somehow missed it) then I would be more than glad to admit I was wrong.

[Proto]

In that case you may want to give piece 51 a read. You might also want to follow Kashiklari's directions for maximizing the emotional impact