Madoka Magica - General Discussion

[M.Marangio]

Originally Posted by Jimmy C

I asked before, but got no answer, what's the name of the witch in ep4?

H.(andle) N.(ame) Elly. Real name Kirsten, when she's not using magical energy to talk to the denizens of darkness

[brain]

Originally Posted by M.Marangio

H.(andle) N.(ame) Elly. Real name Kirsten, when she's not using magical energy to talk to the denizens of darkness

or... Elly is not a witch but a familiar created by Sayaka's pact, and as a familiar can be part of either world... but Kirsten, Sayaka's witch, can only be in her own world

Spoiler for speculation:

of course, Sayaka can enter Kirsten's world, but if they are counterparts, then the same thing could happen as happened with Mami and Charlotte

[Tenjo_Utena]

Where are you guys finding out the names of the witches?

[Kaijo]

Originally Posted by brain

or... Elly is not a witch but a familiar created by Sayaka's pact, and as a familiar can be part of either world... but Kirsten, Sayaka's witch, can only be in her own world

Spoiler for speculation:

of course, Sayaka can enter Kirsten's world, but if they are counterparts, then the same thing could happen as happened with Mami and Charlotte

We saw your theory in the speculation thread, which is where it should remain. Please try to refrain from answering questions with theory (or at least state that it is only your opinion and not fact).

[brutalman]

Originally Posted by Tenjo_Utena

Where are you guys finding out the names of the witches?

The Puella Magi Wiki is where I'm finding it. Some people on /a/ found out the runes are a substitution alphabet, and the wiki has translations of a lot of what appears there. The official Puell Magi website has been putting up cards describing each of the witches and their minions after the episodes are shown.

[brain]

Originally Posted by Kaijo

We saw your theory in the speculation thread, which is where it should remain. Please try to refrain from answering questions with theory (or at least state that it is only your opinion and not fact).

That was a roundabout way of saying, "You should ignore conjectures in this thread and especially not reply to it with your opinions." I'll just avoid this particular thread entirely if talking about interpretations of events that happened in the latest episode is likely to offend various sensibilities.

[FlavorOfLife]

Originally Posted by brain

That was a roundabout way of saying, "You should ignore conjectures in this thread and especially not reply to it with your opinions." I'll just avoid this particular thread entirely if talking about interpretations of events that happened in the latest episode is likely to offend various sensibilities.

So far i see no one really caring about whether its conjecture or not other than 1 person. This is after all a general discussion thread, so feel free to talk about it

[Kaijo]

Originally Posted by brain

That was a roundabout way of saying, "You should ignore conjectures in this thread and especially not reply to it with your opinions." I'll just avoid this particular thread entirely if talking about interpretations of events that happened in the latest episode is likely to offend various sensibilities.

Conjecture is fine.

Presenting conjecture as fact, isn't.

Note the subtle difference.

[Kaijo]

Taking this discussion here, as it would be offtopic for the Kyube thread.

Mahou Shoujo Madoka Magica isn't the first series to deconstruct the magical girl genre. Nothing that is done here is unique. The best you could say, is that Madoka is a bit more surreal, but that's it.

Enter Mai HiME/Otome, a deconstruction that happened long before this. HiME starts out normal enough (except there is no magic creature, nor transformations; the girls just have powers they awaken to). There were girls with powers and monsters to fight, although Mai didn't want to fight at first, either.

But everyone who has watched it, knows the hell to which it sunk. Girls that had forged friendships, found those bonds torn apart as they were pitted against each other. People died left and right, leaving some of them in total breakdown (Akane ended up crazy and out of it, wearing a straight jacket). Mai lost her brother, which she loved so very much. And another guy she was developing strong romantic feelings for. There was jealousy, hate, betrayal, love of all kinds, etc.

Hell, the description and actions of Kyoko, is a mirror image for Nao in HiME/Otome. Sayaka is much like Midori. Madoka is kinda like Mai. Homura is very much like Natsume.

I wouldn't be surprised if the writers took a look at HiME and said, "Let's do something with a similar feeling."

In Otome, there were deaths, and those people didn't come back. Arika watched on of her best friends kill another, and then she herself fought her best friend in rage. Afterward, she went into horrible shock, where she just sat there and didn't respond to any stimuli. She was almost raped.

Madoka has got off damn lucky compared to other MG's so far. There has been 1 death; that's it. But the tone of later HiME and Otome very much mirrors this series.

So yes, comparisons are valid. As a writer myself, I may not like criticisms and comparisons of my works, but I can't stop it. There is nothing new under the sun. We stand on the shoulders of giants, writing what has come before. Madoka follows the tropes, just like any other work.

Heh, HiME and Otome even have the same person doing very similar musical scores as Madoka, so it has the same feeling. As I said before, the only real unique difference one could probably say, is that Madoka feels a bit more surreal. But to people who have watched enough before, we've seen this.

[Arkeus]

Originally Posted by Kaijo

Heh, HiME and Otome even have the same person doing very similar musical scores as Madoka, so it has the same feeling. As I said before, the only real unique difference one could probably say, is that Madoka feels a bit more surreal. But to people who have watched enough before, we've seen this.

Indeed, Madoka really reminds me of Mai Hime, but where Mai hime was unwatchable because everyone was made incredibly stupid in order to make the villains look intelligent, Madoka choose the creepy atmosphere route.

Also, the way the magic is presented is funky.

[Slick_rick]

Originally Posted by Kaijo

Spoiler for space:

Taking this discussion here, as it would be offtopic for the Kyube thread.

Mahou Shoujo Madoka Magica isn't the first series to deconstruct the magical girl genre. Nothing that is done here is unique. The best you could say, is that Madoka is a bit more surreal, but that's it.

Enter Mai HiME/Otome, a deconstruction that happened long before this. HiME starts out normal enough (except there is no magic creature, nor transformations; the girls just have powers they awaken to). There were girls with powers and monsters to fight, although Mai didn't want to fight at first, either.

But everyone who has watched it, knows the hell to which it sunk. Girls that had forged friendships, found those bonds torn apart as they were pitted against each other. People died left and right, leaving some of them in total breakdown (Akane ended up crazy and out of it, wearing a straight jacket). Mai lost her brother, which she loved so very much. And another guy she was developing strong romantic feelings for. There was jealousy, hate, betrayal, love of all kinds, etc.

Hell, the description and actions of Kyoko, is a mirror image for Nao in HiME/Otome. Sayaka is much like Midori. Madoka is kinda like Mai. Homura is very much like Natsume.

I wouldn't be surprised if the writers took a look at HiME and said, "Let's do something with a similar feeling."

In Otome, there were deaths, and those people didn't come back. Arika watched on of her best friends kill another, and then she herself fought her best friend in rage. Afterward, she went into horrible shock, where she just sat there and didn't respond to any stimuli. She was almost raped.

Madoka has got off damn lucky compared to other MG's so far. There has been 1 death; that's it. But the tone of later HiME and Otome very much mirrors this series.

So yes, comparisons are valid. As a writer myself, I may not like criticisms and comparisons of my works, but I can't stop it. There is nothing new under the sun. We stand on the shoulders of giants, writing what has come before. Madoka follows the tropes, just like any other work.

Heh, HiME and Otome even have the same person doing very similar musical scores as Madoka, so it has the same feeling. As I said before, the only real unique difference one could probably say, is that Madoka feels a bit more surreal. But to people who have watched enough before, we've seen this.

While I liked My-hime I never really considered it a deconstruction in the strictest sense. While it did well to add some twists to the genre it never really went out of it way to call into question tropes in that genre. The biggest twist was turning them all against each other but that's not really a deconstruction but a subversion. Either way this has little to do with this show imo. Mai-hime and Madoka are more similar on the fighting and more shounen style to them that other MG shows.

We have to look at the issues that this shows tries to deconstruct in the MG category first and foremost. The most straightforward is being a magical girl a blessing or a curse. This trope though happens in a number of this MG shows but the key difference so far is its presented as much more undesirable especially by the long time MG girls themselves. Another question it raises it the cute magical creature that offers you this "opportunity" just manipulating a naive young girl. Can such offers be trusted and you be sure he isn't using these girls as sacrificial lambs for his own purposes? Are these girls just too young and lacking in experience to know what kind of situation they are getting themselves into? Also Idealism vs Cynicism. The normal MG is always portrayed as an idealist but what happens to those ideals when reality bites, literally. Are idealist just suckers and do they just become cynics when they finally understand strife? Are all their beliefs of saving the people just BS and in fact do they just do it for themselves and to preserve their own wishes?

Madoka is much more a deconstruction so far than My-hime, more like an Utena in that regard but done less subtly, and we'll have to see where it goes. Sure enough it can be compared to other shows in many respects but you shouldn't limit your comparisons there and assume it might will take a similar route especially when so many key things are portrayed differently.

My opinion on this issue is that while you are having a hard time accepting what the show is trying to portray. That being a magical girl might in fact be not a very good thing at all and the person who roped you into might not be looking of for you at all either. MG's might just be 13 years old suckers with illusions of grandeur. Perhaps they will have a shift and go back to a regular trope but I can't see why they'd do that.

[Tenjo_Utena]

I never thought of Mai Hime as a Magical Girl show. Just in the same way that I don't think Utena is a magical girl show. I'm not going to argue that similarities cannot be drawn, but I think you may be widening your definition a bit too much.

[Kaijo]

Originally Posted by Arkeus

Indeed, Madoka really reminds me of Mai Hime, but where Mai hime was unwatchable because everyone was made incredibly stupid in order to make the villains look intelligent, Madoka choose the creepy atmosphere route.

Also, the way the magic is presented is funky.

Actually, the characters acted rather human. I didn't see any stupidity in them; rather, they banded together, tried to find out what was going on, and the reasons they turned on each other were very believably done.

And what you call "funky" I call truly unique. ;p

Originally Posted by Slick_rick

While I liked My-hime I never really considered it a deconstruction in the strictest sense. While it did well to add some twists to the genre it never really went out of it way to call into question tropes in that genre. The biggest twist was turning them all against each other but that's not really a deconstruction but a subversion.

A subversion can be a deconstruction. You said it yourself; they turned on each other. In other MG shows, the magical girls all teamed up, and let's face it, we were all expecting that. I bet no one saw them turning on each other by the end.

The most straightforward is being a magical girl a blessing or a curse.

And interestingly enough, being an MG was a curse in HiME.

Also Idealism vs Cynicism.

Portrayed quite well with Natsume being cynical and Midori being idealistic. And in the end, Mai being both realistic and idealistic in ending the situation.

My opinion on this issue is that while you are having a hard time accepting what the show is trying to portray. That being a magical girl might in fact be not a very good thing at all and the person who roped you into might not be looking of for you at all either. MG's might just be 13 years old suckers with illusions of grandeur. Perhaps they will have a shift and go back to a regular trope but I can't see why they'd do that.

My opinion is that you are having a hard time accepting that Madoka's story has been done before. ;p Madoka has had one death. I can count more magical girl shows where there has been:

Multiple deaths
child abuse and torture
mental breakdown, insanity
attempted rape
mass death and destruction
friendship turned into hate

When you look at it, Madoka hasn't gone nearly as far as other shows. There really is nothing new under the sun; when you watch enough, you'll understand why we have tropes.

Originally Posted by Tenjo_Utena

I never thought of Mai Hime as a Magical Girl show. Just in the same way that I don't think Utena is a magical girl show. I'm not going to argue that similarities cannot be drawn, but I think you may be widening your definition a bit too much.

Whether you do or not, the fact remains that it is considered one officially. There are girls, and they have powers. They even fight monsters. That's about all you need to really consider a show one.

[zato_1one]

Then name me MG series that the main protagonist didn't become a magical girl in the first half of the story.

Well, I personally don't label Mai-Hime as MG series too. <_<

[Slick_rick]

Originally Posted by Kaijo

A subversion can be a deconstruction. You said it yourself; they turned on each other. In other MG shows, the magical girls all teamed up, and let's face it, we were all expecting that. I bet no one saw them turning on each other by the end.

Yes, but having a few subversion doesn't mean the show works to actively deconstruction a genre.

And interestingly enough, being an MG was a curse in HiME.

And I agree with you. Like I said a lot of shows tackle this issue. It a common issue but generally done in a different manner as I stated. Having the show tackle similar issues does mean that they do it the same. Being a Hime wasn't a bad thing till they were manipulated to fight each other and even in the end there we had to have a dues ex machina to get a happy ending. How do you know they won't just leave that out?

My opinion is that you are having a hard time accepting that Madoka's story has been done before. ;p Madoka has had one death. I can count more magical girl shows where there has been:

Multiple deaths
child abuse and torture
mental breakdown, insanity
attempted rape
mass death and destruction
friendship turned into hate

And? I said already that these shows will tackle similar issues as every show overlaps in places but a number of these issues so far in Madoka are addressed differently than normal MG show and call into question a lot of your beliefs in regards to them. That is the standard of what a deconstruction is.

I never stated Madoka is completely unique and I don't believe it is but I generally do have a problem with you callous disregard for addressing the actual things/fact shown in the show. You claim others go out of their way to call QB evil but we just addressing the issues the show highlights while you go out of your way to justify his every action with circumstantial what if's. You are the one most prone to ignoring things in defense of your own biased opinion.

[Kaijo]

Originally Posted by zato_1one

Then name me MG series that the main protagonist didn't become a magical girl in the first half of the story.

That is one of the few new things, and actually it shows something quite interesting. It's a point of theme for MG series, when the MG finally accepts that she has to fight, that the turning point begins. Because many of them fought from the start, they prevented bad things from happening.

So Madoka slacking on her destiny, is what's making things go to hell, and what killed Mami.

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by Kaijo

So Madoka slacking on her destiny, is what's making things go to hell, and what killed Mami.

Then again, maybe it's the other way around, and if she contracts, she'll end up dooming everyone. At this point I don't see how we can tell the direction the show is going to take.

[Kaijo]

Originally Posted by Slick_rick

Yes, but having a few subversion doesn't mean the show works to actively deconstruction a genre.

Considering Mai HiME twisted many of the standard MG concepts (friendship overcoming all, transformations, magical creatures, etc), it does do an interesting take on deconstructing the genre.

Is it the only way to do it? Does Madoka also take a slightly different tack on deconstructing? Yes. But do they both do similar things, just taking slight different paths? Yep.

And I agree with you. Like I said a lot of shows tackle this issue. It a common issue but generally done in a different manner as I stated. Having the show tackle similar issues does mean that they do it the same. Being a Hime wasn't a bad thing till they were manipulated to fight each other and even in the end there we had to have a dues ex machina to get a happy ending. How do you know they won't just leave that out?

Being a HiME was always a bad thing. In most Magical Girl shows, being an MG is something you do to prevent tragedy; here, being an MG meant you were destined for tragedy. They were specifically created to kill each other in a carnival, watching their most important persons be killed. The carnival was something that had apparently been going on for thousands of years.

Without going into it too much, the ending may have seemed somewhat of a deus ex, but it makes sense when you realized how the powers were created, and what role the important persons actually played in the carnival. They weren't actually killed until the carnival was over; just had their energy absorbed.

And? I said already that these shows will tackle similar issues as every show overlaps in places but a number of these issues so far in Madoka are addressed differently than normal MG show and call into question a lot of your beliefs in regards to them. That is the standard of what a deconstruction is.

I never said it didn't. I merely said that deconstructions and such have happened before. I mean, to listen to some people talk, it's as if they had never seen someone die before. >_>

I never stated Madoka is completely unique and I don't believe it is but I generally do have a problem with you callous disregard for addressing the actual things/fact shown in the show. You claim others go out of their way to call QB evil but we just addressing the issues the show highlights while you go out of your way to justify his every action with circumstantial what if's. You are the one most prone to ignoring things in defense of your own biased opinion.

Then you have missed my argument entirely. I'll restate it again:

We have no evidence for Kyube being evil. Is he creepy? Yes. Could his actions be seen in a more sinister light? Yes. Is there outright evidence? Nope.

Madoka is an interesting show, and there is still a lot we don't know. What me, Triple R, and many others have issues with, is that a lot of people are trying to treat their assumptions as facts.

Everyone is entitled to their own opinions; they aren't entitled to their own facts.

You're welcome to think he's creepy and evil, as long as you realize we don't know that for sure, yet. If evidence does come out down the line - say we learn he has been creating MGs and witches to fight against each other for his amusement - then I will agree he's evil.

But not before then.

[Slick_rick]

Originally Posted by Kaijo

Considering Mai HiME twisted many of the standard MG concepts (friendship overcoming all, transformations, magical creatures, etc), it does do an interesting take on deconstructing the genre.

Friendship did overcome all and not having as stylized transformations and a completely different sort of "magical creatures" is not deconstruction. It never calls into question these tropes. It is why when people watch Mai-hime they rarely think standard MG because it just tries to be different not highlight anything about standard MG shows.

Then you have missed my argument entirely. I'll restate it again:

We have no evidence for Kyube being evil. Is he creepy? Yes. Could his actions be seen in a more sinister light? Yes. Is there outright evidence? Nope.

Madoka is an interesting show, and there is still a lot we don't know. What me, Triple R, and many others have issues with, is that a lot of people are trying to treat their assumptions as facts.

Everyone is entitled to their own opinions; they aren't entitled to their own facts.

You're welcome to think he's creepy and evil, as long as you realize we don't know that for sure, yet. If evidence does come out down the line - say we learn he has been creating MGs and witches to fight against each other for his amusement - then I will agree he's evil.

But not before then.

Good. The next time some shares there opinion that they feel he's evil you should have no problem with it then. I'm fairly confident everyone here is intelligent to know basically nothing is 100 percent certain yet but when people states opinions they often get take by others as them stating it as a forgone conclusion.

His actions are more than a little suspicious and their is more than enough evidence for someone to draw the conclusion that he is quite possibly evil. And people have different morals and as such they might see the manipulation of these young girls as evil no matter what goal lays at the end. If you don't think he's manipulating these girls for some purpose I can only say your mostly likely just being willfully delusional. Sure, they could be other reasoning for his actions but even then that doesn't mean everyone will find it justifiable either.

I don't like the outright dismissal I've seen of him being called evil just cause we have no definitive proof. If you going to argue against him being evil why not argue facts not we don't know's and maybe's. There's a lot of we don't know about a lot of things but the conversation doesn't stop at well we don't know so we can form a opinion yet or state your opinion. He certainly someone who is very subtlety deceptive but it is highlighted to nth degree that it's very hard to ignore. I personally think chances are he's evil but he might just be an asshole. I don't see how I can justify throwing these girls lives away when he clearly doesn't inform them of the extent of the situation they are getting themselves into.

[totoum]

Originally Posted by Kaijo

Everyone is entitled to their own opinions; they aren't entitled to their own facts.

You're fighting a crusade against nobody

Everyone knows this, guardian enzo sums it up best

In any case all I'm saying is that I'm completely confident - anyone else can feel differently if they like.

You see a bunch of people that are confident in their opinion of Kyuubei but nobody is trying to forbid you of holding your opinion.