2011-11-24, 07:03 | Link #25922 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2010
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The mechanism could work in way like requiring 2 strikes of 12 o'clock to complete the circuit that triggers the explosion. It wouldn't be hard at all. But without any absolute confirmation on the matter, we cannot discard the possibility that its a single strike mechanism. In that case its probable that someone else started it up after noon.
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2011-11-24, 07:49 | Link #25923 | |
別にいいけど
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
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I think it did happen in a few episodes in fact.
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2011-11-24, 07:52 | Link #25924 |
Senior Member
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How about this timeline for Episode 4?
October 4: 11:45 - 11:55 PM: Battler talks with "Beatrice" (Shannon) in front of the mansion. 11:57: Battler gets key from outside chapel. Shannon grabs the chapel key on her way out. October 5: 12:02 AM: Battler returns to the mansion. Shannon makes her way to the garden shed. 12:07 AM: Battler finds first twilight victims. Shannon gets the key from Gohda. 12:09 AM: Battler still searching dining room. Shannon kills Gohda & Kumasawa. 12:15 AM: Battler searches mansion. Shannon goes to chapel. 12:20 AM: Battler still searching mansion. Shannon sets bomb. 12:30 AM: Battler still searching mansion. Shannon kills self by well. 6:00 AM: Battler leaves mansion. Finds bodies of Krauss, Nanjo, Shannon.
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2011-11-24, 08:03 | Link #25925 | |
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Join Date: Nov 2011
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Eva doesn't believe her, and tries to change it's setting. If the other adults weren't there, Rokkenjima would have exploded that night. Maybe Eva switched it (Thinking it was on "On", when it really was on "Off", which means that she accidentally activated it) and stayed to protect the clock (And left Hideyoshi and George) And then at midnight the Bomb Exploded. This would mean that there's not really ONE culprit, and that the tragedy was just an accident. Still, this has a lot of rough edges. What would Eva do with Beatrice? I don't think she would let this strange person wander about the island and let her do whathever she wants (Which would be dangerous) And, is the room with the switch safe from the explosion? If it wasn't, it means that Eva might have panicked at the last second and left the room, leaving her family behind. |
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2011-11-24, 13:06 | Link #25926 | |
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I've seen clocks (albeit not grandfather clocks) that have an AM/PM display that's mechanically controlled by just switching over when the clock strikes 12. So one would just assume the clock has this and that the detonator is only active if (1) the "detonator switch" is set ON, (2) the clock's hands are both at 12, and (3) the AM/PM setting is set to AM. The way I see it is there might be a circuit. At 12 an electrical pulse is sent out. If the detonator switch isn't active or the AM/PM switch is set to PM, the circuit is not completed and the pulse never reaches the detonator. With the detonator switch set ON, at 12 AM a pulse is sent out to a completed circuit. This would require no electronics, only sufficient knowledge of electricity and a battery in the clock, all of which Kinzo would have the knowledge to construct as a military engineer.
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2011-11-24, 14:41 | Link #25927 | ||||
Goat
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Gnawing away at Rokkenjima
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From a killer's standpoint, it's a pointless liability. Quote:
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Beatrice: "......If 24:00 arrives when the switch is in this position, the bombs will explode." Natsuhi: "B, but it's almost 24:00 now......" Kyrie: "In other words, it won't explode X hours after you flip it. ......It's a time limit bomb that only explodes at midnight." Beatrice: "Indeed." |
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2011-11-24, 21:52 | Link #25929 |
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Join Date: May 2007
Location: Meta-Meta-Meta-Space
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By the way, about the reveal to to the siblings about the Murder Game...
I think we did get a scene and example of this in EP2 when all the adults bowed down and acknowledged 'Beatrice.' So maybe she doesn't specifically reveal herself as Yasu, but 'Beatrice' instead? (And she assumes in her writing that her disguises are good enough to distinguish her from Yasu, Shannon or Kanon?) Heh... I remember that scene now. I kept thinking it was some sort of production error; "How can Rosa and the other siblings be in the church, when Rosa acts like she was never in the church later?" Of course... should've just took the *simplest* answer... but I kept going.. "Noooo... can't be! Must be a messed up background, right?" 8) |
2011-11-25, 04:00 | Link #25930 |
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Join Date: Apr 2011
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Something I just thought of....
Erika claims to have listened to Battler sleeping all until the discovery of the crime, correct? Doesn't she also believe that they were already dead at the time? The cousins... So, naturally, she wouldn't hear their breathing. Now, when Battler apparently makes his claim about him killing them after his scream, her natural response should have been ''Bullshit, I didn't hear their breathing!'', or did she actually hear them breathe? I can't wrap my head around this, I might be missing something, but this sounds really odd... |
2011-11-25, 05:27 | Link #25931 |
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Join Date: May 2007
Location: Meta-Meta-Meta-Space
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I don't think she heard their breathing per se; just that nothing occurred other than normal sleeping breathing, I think. She was basically listening to ensure that no crime was committed and she assumed she would be able to hear a knife stab, shout or muffled scream or something.
At the time, I don't think she was ready to think all 6 would be killed, although she's role-playing as a detective would. She basically suspects (or she says her piece does) that a murder would occur and that it would've been Battler that would've been killed. That is rather natural considering that's how most detective novels start out. |
2011-11-25, 07:55 | Link #25932 | ||
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Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
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The first is the issue that you explained. What I'm confident about is that in Ryuukishi's mind the bomb can only explode at midnight (whether he thought about the fact that for a grandfather clock noon and midnight are indistiguishable or not). The second is that it is said that the bomb exploded at exactly midnight, not a minute less or more. Those old style clocks aren't that reliable. It is not impossible, and it is actually more plausible, that the grandfather clock is just a facade for a more complex and reliable device. The mechanical clock arrows might be connected to that device rather than their original equally mechanical set of gears and weights. So we might just pretend it's that. Quote:
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Last edited by Jan-Poo; 2011-11-25 at 08:06. |
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2011-11-25, 08:29 | Link #25933 | |||
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Join Date: Jan 2011
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One more question from me. I just re-read Bernskatel letter. As you remember, she mentioned about rule X, Y and Z just like the opening of Minagoroshi-hen in Higurashi.
But the rule X, Y, Z in Higurashi is rather literal and easy to understand. In Umineko case, for some reason Bern chooses to speak in a very cryptic way. As the main game is practically over, what is your possibly interpretation of the rule Ryukishi set to his game? (Again, I don't know whether this has been discussed before or not. Quote:
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Sorry if I was asking basic thing, but even when I finished, I still don't understand Bern letter. |
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2011-11-25, 09:45 | Link #25934 |
Artist
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Yesterday!
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For Y and Z I have some ideas.
Y is probably that "writing a mystery story but remove the part where the culprit is revealed turning it into a fantasy story". Ryuukishi said that arc 3 the Y rule failed or didn't apply or something along that line (forgot sorry) and it's the only question arc where a human culprit arise (Eva, even tho she's the wrong culprit, she's not a fantasy culprit at least) and is declared as such by the main character/detective. (Side note: The more I think about that idea, the more I think that's probably Beatrice's goal and overall what makes the people in the story claim it's such a special story. Beatrice probably wanted to write a fantasy story, but instead of writing it directly as a fantasy story, she used that logic of writing a mystery story, leaving it unsolved, and "writing" the fantasy story over it. "A fantasy story weaved out of mystery". LD touching her level probably refers to Takano/Oyashiro-Sama) Z sounds like the author has a level of liberty into altering the story based on readers' theories. Ryuukishi certainly did that. Land was removed and changed into Banquet, Alliance had Kinzo's death status unveiled (orriginally he planned to reveal it in arc 5 only) and I read that Virgilia was orriginally supposed to be more like Erika then the Virgilia we know. I read also that Natsuhi was made the "wrong culprit" in arc 5 because she's the one the japanese fanbase most suspected of being the culprit. It also seems like Ryuukishi wasn't sure at all how many arcs would be in all of Umineko until pretty late (was it around arc 6's release that he said it could be 7 arcs long, or 8 or even 9?). So yeah, in any case, he treated his story in a very flexible way. Even within the story they make such references with Battler's ideas being later used by Beatrice (goats and Goldsmith). At least to me it makes sense that the "Y" rule I explained is the source of magic and that the "Z" causes that flexibility maze thing. For X I'm more lost. Since LD says "absolutely" not be able to win that game, well in Higurashi figuring out the truth wasn't enough for Rika to win, she had to still survive. It probably refers to everyone dying at midnight of the second day no matter what (outside of rare exceptions) or else to the epitaph murders, but I'm not very confident in that. It could also be the entire serie of events that "has to happen in any given arc for it to fulfil what Beatrice wanted the arcs to be". It'd include things like Maria meeting Beatrice in the garden (or something similar to that). |
2011-11-25, 10:25 | Link #25935 | |
Goat
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Gnawing away at Rokkenjima
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Anyway, it's very interesting. Here's what I read into it: X- feels like a reference to Higurashi with the June 20th part. I think that Bernkastel has judged Lambda to have set up a game board which has a "certain" Bad End, similar to Higurashi. Y- It's about the cat-box of infinite possibilities; it's about how there is no way to know for sure what the truth of Rokkenjima is. It makes magic possible. Spoiler for Higurashi:
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2011-11-25, 10:34 | Link #25936 | ||
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Join Date: Jan 2011
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The full letter is here. It is a seperate TIPS released from a long time ago. I don't remember when but certainly before the time we know that Bern is a bitch. http://umineko.wikia.com/wiki/TIPS/B...tel%27s_Letter http://umineko.wikia.com/wiki/TIPS/B...tel%27s_Letter Well, I checked and the only thing X could refered to is Higurashi, Hinamizawa disaster is caused on 22 June Spoiler for Higurashi:
But it made no sense to have a Higurashi reference here... Quote:
I think I understand it a bit clearer now, but still very blur... Last edited by ndqanh_vn; 2011-11-25 at 10:50. |
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2011-11-25, 13:07 | Link #25938 | |
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I agree with you that Ryukishi probably didn't think about how this could work. But I actually do think it could work, not just using only 1940s technology, but using only 1940s technology Kinzo probably already had. All he'd need to do is add a few things to the interior mechanisms of the clock. As to it not being accurately 00:00... well, so what? It's pretty much never exactly, indisputibly 00:00 in mutiple places at the same time. Clocks vary constantly and unless Kinzo had wired the thing up to an incredibly accurate atomic clock (which he wouldn't do even if he could), "when this clock hits midnight" is close enough to "midnight" for me. Besides, Genji probably wound all the clocks in the house, so they were all probably set to as similar a time as he could manage.
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2011-11-25, 15:09 | Link #25939 |
別にいいけど
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
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Well first it was at least 1950 technology since the Mansion was built a few years after that (and I presume the secret rooms in the tunnels near it as well). I'm not sure how much advanced technology was at that point, but realistically speaking unless the bomb device was the first thing he made (and not the last) it should be close to 1955 if not later. The actual date of the ending of the Mansion's construction was never stated accurately. We only know that Genji said "about 30 years before", so around 1956. It's probably a bit earlier than that, but how much isn't known.
The second thing is that you misundertsood me. the bomb exploded exactly at 0:00 according to the story. Again, I'm not sure that Ryuukishi thought it through enough, but this is, again, how it is in his mind. So this scenario makes more sense if we imagine a very accurate clock.
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2011-11-25, 18:36 | Link #25940 | |
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Join Date: Aug 2011
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I personally think/hope that the clock was an 'artistic licence' from Bern and that the bomb worked in a different and more realistic and reliable way (Kinzo apparently built everything with the idea of the epitaph in mind, meaning he planned to challenge someone to solve the epitaph. What if a person where to solve it around midnight, notice the switch, turn in on merely out of curiousity because he can't assume a clock will be dangerous and blow everything up?). However Ryukishi might have not cared about it. I still find unbelievable how Kinzo can keep so much explosive and have a self destruction mechanism built for his house. It sounds more fitting for an anime mad scientist's lab that for magic obsessed Kinzo. |
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