AnimeSuki Forums

marebito · 2009-08-20, 13:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Klashikari

There is absolutely no proof that person "exist" to begin with.

As for Erika, she is just another piece, that is derived from Bern herself. But that's about it, the plot shows well they are really too different from each other, or from Rika so heh.

If we suppose that we would also have to admit that a -supernatural- meta-level influences the real world and until now this is not exactly confirmed. The meta-level might exist as much as it wants as long as it doesn't have a huge impact on the real world. Nothing in that direction is really confirmed so all we know is the relation between Bernkastel and Rika from Higurashi. And even that relation is still kinda ambiguous, without Umineko we wouldn't even have those new aspects like e.g. in the manga version of Higurashi.

That said, of course we certainly see Erika and Bern interacting between the game board and the meta-level but I want to know where Erika's body is taken from since otherwise as I said we would have to admit much more supernatural extent, which might or might not be the correct conclusion.

As for the other person: As I said, there are various theories proposed by the game itself already. And yes, one of those is that the person doesn't even exist in 1986.

**Klashikari** · 2009-08-20, 14:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by gwy

Are you commenting on EP1 here? He didn't have to "remain" in the room. He killed Eva, taped the door and could simply go off to fetch Natsuhi. This wouldn't take too long. He would have enough time to come back and "supervise" Kanon to cut off the chain and recycle the tape.

I still have no idea what you are talking about with "recycle" and the like.
Replacing the chain or something?

Quote:

I don't really understand your point about EP5 though.

You said Eva killed Genji during the first night. This is absolutely not possible.
Remember the stakes confirmed in red that none of the first 6 were moved after being killed.
However, Genji's "corpse" wasn't present after Natsuhi was trying to see Jessica's corpse.

Marion · 2009-08-20, 14:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Klashikari

Remember the stakes confirmed in red that none of the first 6 were moved after being killed.

If that's the case then everyone was killed where they were. However, considering that Battler didn't even REALIZE people were dying in his room my bet is that the children + Rosa were poisoned and died in the room. Then the killer came and cut them up.

As far Eva killing the first night - why would she kill her son? I doubt those tears were fake.

**Klashikari** · 2009-08-20, 14:06

No, that's not possible: Battler but also the rest of the cast didn't find the corpses at all.
They couldn't be "dead" because if they were dead when Battler found them in the morning, their corpses would have been moved, which is denied by the stakes.

Lucifer even confirmed "Therefore, the corpses couldn't have gone missing after being discovered!!".

Quote:

よって、遺体発見後に遺体が消失することはありえないッ！！

Ergo, none of the first 6 were dead before Natsuhi breaks through to see Jessica's "corpse".

Ithekro · 2009-08-20, 14:12

Which means something is off here.

gwy · 2009-08-20, 14:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Klashikari

I still have no idea what you are talking about with "recycle" and the like.
Replacing the chain or something?

Sorry if I didn't explain clearly how this "chain" trick works. Usually door chains can only be locked/unlocked from the inside of the room. That's the basis for many closed door mysteries. But there is one way you can "lock" the chain from outside the room: standing outside the room, and use a gum tape to merely tape the free end of the chain to the inside wall. Appearing to one who stands outside, it will appear to be properly locked from inside. However, if one pulls it with force, it will come off easily and exposing the fake. But as long as you do not pull it you cannot distinguish that. Even if you cut the chain off with a cutter, you cannot expose the fake because cutter receives virtually no resistance from the chain. After Kanon cut the chain off, Genji only needed to secretly put that gum tape into his pocket and no one would realize that the chain was not actually locked at the first place.

gwy · 2009-08-20, 14:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Klashikari

You said Eva killed Genji during the first night. This is absolutely not possible.
Remember the stakes confirmed in red that none of the first 6 were moved after being killed.
However, Genji's "corpse" wasn't present after Natsuhi was trying to see Jessica's corpse.

Eva wounded Genji badly during the night but did not kill him off. Genji retreated back to the servant room, trying to call Natsuhi for help, but the latter was threatened to not pick up no phone during the night. He was actually finished off in the second day somewhere else...kana?

chronotrig · 2009-08-20, 15:18

Okay, finally time for my review of EP5.

A lot of people have commented on the details of the story, so I'll avoid those for the most part.

Spoiler for ep5:

Let's get the bad/annoying out of the way, since there isn't much of it.

- The music was great...but it was probably the weakest set of new tracks yet. replayer was awesome, the Erika tracks were even better, but most of the rest were too techno-heavy for me overall. EP5 has great tracks, but it doesn't have quite the same variety as the previous games. (Yes, I know replayer is the most techno-heavy of them all...I don't care

)

- Again, there are some minor pacing problems. A little too much time was spent clarifying in 2 or 3 parts of the game. On the whole, I think the layout of the story was great. More on that later.

- 2 outright errors in this game, one in the red text, one with Hideyoshi's tachi-e showing up after his death. Ryuukishi has acknowledged these as mistakes and is taking measures to fix them, but it makes me a little uneasy.

+ On the logic and detective sides of the game, EP5 stands far, far ahead of the pack compared to the other EPs. The red/blue battles are way more fine-grained and fast-paced than anything before, and you really need to use your brain to follow along. It really feels like a game as you try to stay ahead of the characters' arguments, or at least keep up.

There are a lot of jumps in the story with make it a bit hard to follow at first, but I think the real point of these is to make you read through the story a second time. There's so much info packed in here that you really have no chance and figuring everything out on your first run-through of the game.

+ Information. We get some seriously huge clues in EP5, and not just for the game board mysteries. It looks like we're finally getting some real answers about what the Meta world actually is and how it works. People who assume they have this story figured out before reading EP5 are in for a rude awakening. ...And since it seems Ryuukishi is planning to make 3 more games, anyone who assumes they have the story figured out after EP5 is probably in trouble too.

+ Ura Tea. Ryuukishi has always been good at ending games, and EP5 is no exception.

Overall, EP5 really feels like a culmination of everything in EP1-4 (except the Ange bits), and is by far the most challenging and engaging to read. On the whole, I'd rank the games EP5>EP3>EP4>EP1>EP2.

Used Can · 2009-08-20, 15:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by chronotrig

Spoiler for ep5:

What new information have we got about that place? It's quite likely related to "Maria's" letters.

Saerianne · 2009-08-20, 15:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by chronotrig

Okay, finally time for my review of EP5.

A lot of people have commented on the details of the story, so I'll avoid those for the most part.

Spoiler for ep5:

Let's get the bad/annoying out of the way, since there isn't much of it.

- The music was great...but it was probably the weakest set of new tracks yet. replayer was awesome, the Erika tracks were even better, but most of the rest were too techno-heavy for me overall. EP5 has great tracks, but it doesn't have quite the same variety as the previous games. (Yes, I know replayer is the most techno-heavy of them all...I don't care

)

- Again, there are some minor pacing problems. A little too much time was spent clarifying in 2 or 3 parts of the game. On the whole, I think the layout of the story was great. More on that later.

- 2 outright errors in this game, one in the red text, one with Hideyoshi's tachi-e showing up after his death. Ryuukishi has acknowledged these as mistakes and is taking measures to fix them, but it makes me a little uneasy.

+ On the logic and detective sides of the game, EP5 stands far, far ahead of the pack compared to the other EPs. The red/blue battles are way more fine-grained and fast-paced than anything before, and you really need to use your brain to follow along. It really feels like a game as you try to stay ahead of the characters' arguments, or at least keep up.

There are a lot of jumps in the story with make it a bit hard to follow at first, but I think the real point of these is to make you read through the story a second time. There's so much info packed in here that you really have no chance and figuring everything out on your first run-through of the game.

+ Information. We get some seriously huge clues in EP5, and not just for the game board mysteries. It looks like we're finally getting some real answers about what the Meta world actually is and how it works. People who assume they have this story figured out before reading EP5 are in for a rude awakening. ...And since it seems Ryuukishi is planning to make 3 more games, anyone who assumes they have the story figured out after EP5 is probably in trouble too.

+ Ura Tea. Ryuukishi has always been good at ending games, and EP5 is no exception.

Overall, EP5 really feels like a culmination of everything in EP1-4 (except the Ange bits), and is by far the most challenging and engaging to read. On the whole, I'd rank the games EP5>EP3>EP4>EP1>EP2.

Two errors in the game? I haven't heard of that yet.

Squirrellord · 2009-08-20, 15:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Used Can

What new information have we got about that place? It's quite likely related to "Maria's" letters.

This is just my take on it, but the biggest thing I think we learned is the difference between Magic World Beatrice and Meta-World Beatrice.
What I mean is, in episode 3 Beatrice loses her powers to Eva... and yet, end of the game, Beatrice still is the Golden Witch. That's because her Koma lost her powers, while Meta Beatrice did not. Furthermore, this explains how the two Beatrice's were talking at the end of episode 4.
So there's Meta World > [Magic World > Human World], with the Magic and Human being part of a Kakera

(and the errors are ones I mentioned a while back, that Hideoyshi comes back to life for one scene, and that Erica mentions the "Guest House Dining Hall" )

k//eternal · 2009-08-20, 15:56

I thought that was established ages ago though (just not 100%)

Marion · 2009-08-20, 15:57

Same here. I thought it was obvious that Meta-World Beatrice isn't the same as Game World Beatrice since EP 2

And I remember the Hideyoshi thing. Man that was hilarious XD

Me: Wait what Hideyoshi aren't you dead omg zombies are involved in this game D:

Used Can · 2009-08-20, 16:06

I wasn't precisely asking about that, but about what exactly the Meta-world is. chronotrig said EP5 shed some new information about what that place is. I mean, is it some supernatural world we're just supposed to accept, or is it some sort of allegory?

luckyssol · 2009-08-20, 16:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by k//eternal

I thought that was established ages ago though (just not 100%)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marion

Same here. I thought it was obvious that Meta-World Beatrice isn't the same as Game World Beatrice since EP 2

And I remember the Hideyoshi thing. Man that was hilarious XD

Me: Wait what Hideyoshi aren't you dead omg zombies are involved in this game D:

I agree it's obvious now... however...

Episode 2? Can you provide any evidence of this? If you had a theory at that time then of course that is fine.

Episode 3? Again, where is the absolute proof of multiple meta world levels in this?

In my opinion, only at the end of episode 4 is the first proof of multiple meta world levels provided when the two Beatrices interact.

It's not very nice to just comment on something people have struggled to figure out by saying 'Oh, I already knew that a long time ago' and not provide any reference.

k//eternal · 2009-08-20, 16:29

You don't think it's ridiculous to demand a reference for someone's "thoughts"? I could go find old posts where I've talked about the meta world as being above the magic on the board, but it isn't exactly a constructive use of time.

When Beatrice tells you in EP2 that she placed herself as a "piece" on the game board, I took it as a sign that the "piece" Beatrice was a separate entity. It wasn't clear that the magic was a separate "reality" until EP3, but once it was, it should have been sufficient to place the anti-mystery board as an existence parallel to the anti-fantasy one (both being below the meta-world).

Volcanic · 2009-08-20, 16:40

Just got through all these posts and....

Spoiler for EP5:

Kamar · 2009-08-20, 16:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Used Can

I wasn't precisely asking about that, but about what exactly the Meta-world is. chronotrig said EP5 shed some new information about what that place is. I mean, is it some supernatural world we're just supposed to accept, or is it some sort of allegory?

Ugn...I hope if it is meant as an allegory or something, that fact is never stated outright. That kind of thing "Lol that was a metaphor or allegory, X never really happened" just ruins a work of fiction, IMO.

It's just a dressed up version of "All just a dream."

Btw, for those wondering about my summaries, I plan to continue them, but I've had some crap with my work come up, so I've been busy with that. I'll try to get started again soon, so please be patient.

luckyssol · 2009-08-20, 16:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by k//eternal

You don't think it's ridiculous to demand a reference for someone's "thoughts"? I could go find old posts where I've talked about the meta world as being above the magic on the board, but it isn't exactly a constructive use of time.

I just believe your post served no purpose.

Quote:

Originally Posted by k//eternal

When Beatrice tells you in EP2 that she placed herself as a "piece" on the game board, I took it as a sign that the "piece" Beatrice was a separate entity. It wasn't clear that the magic was a separate "reality" until EP3, but once it was, it should have been sufficient to place the anti-mystery board as an existence parallel to the anti-fantasy one (both being below the meta-world).

That makes sense. The way I interpreted it at that time was Beatrice was an entity that could project herself on the gameboard and in the meta world. However, I didn't see magic world Beatrice and meta world Beatrice as completely different entities at that time in episode 3.

Episode 5 clearly shows this though so now it should be clear from this point foward.

k//eternal · 2009-08-20, 16:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ssol

I just believe your post served no purpose.

I'd actually assumed everyone already believed that was the case, so I was surprised that it was considered "news", take it as you will.

It's good to have that "fact" confirmed, though.

2009-08-20, 14:12	Link #305
Ithekro Gamilas Falls Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Republic of California Age: 46	Which means something is off here. __________________

2009-08-20, 15:18	Link #308
chronotrig Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Buffer overflow	Okay, finally time for my review of EP5. A lot of people have commented on the details of the story, so I'll avoid those for the most part. Spoiler for ep5: Let's get the bad/annoying out of the way, since there isn't much of it. - The music was great...but it was probably the weakest set of new tracks yet. replayer was awesome, the Erika tracks were even better, but most of the rest were too techno-heavy for me overall. EP5 has great tracks, but it doesn't have quite the same variety as the previous games. (Yes, I know replayer is the most techno-heavy of them all...I don't care) - Again, there are some minor pacing problems. A little too much time was spent clarifying in 2 or 3 parts of the game. On the whole, I think the layout of the story was great. More on that later. - 2 outright errors in this game, one in the red text, one with Hideyoshi's tachi-e showing up after his death. Ryuukishi has acknowledged these as mistakes and is taking measures to fix them, but it makes me a little uneasy. + On the logic and detective sides of the game, EP5 stands far, far ahead of the pack compared to the other EPs. The red/blue battles are way more fine-grained and fast-paced than anything before, and you really need to use your brain to follow along. It really feels like a game as you try to stay ahead of the characters' arguments, or at least keep up. There are a lot of jumps in the story with make it a bit hard to follow at first, but I think the real point of these is to make you read through the story a second time. There's so much info packed in here that you really have no chance and figuring everything out on your first run-through of the game. + Information. We get some seriously huge clues in EP5, and not just for the game board mysteries. It looks like we're finally getting some real answers about what the Meta world actually is and how it works. People who assume they have this story figured out before reading EP5 are in for a rude awakening. ...And since it seems Ryuukishi is planning to make 3 more games, anyone who assumes they have the story figured out after EP5 is probably in trouble too. + Ura Tea. Ryuukishi has always been good at ending games, and EP5 is no exception. Overall, EP5 really feels like a culmination of everything in EP1-4 (except the Ange bits), and is by far the most challenging and engaging to read. On the whole, I'd rank the games EP5>EP3>EP4>EP1>EP2. __________________ "The only moral it is possible to draw from this story is that one should never throw the letter 'q' into a privet bush. But, unfortunately, there are times when it is unavoidable." --Hitchhikers www.witch-hunt.com Theory page

2009-08-20, 16:06	Link #314
Used Can Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2008	I wasn't precisely asking about that, but about what exactly the Meta-world is. chronotrig said EP5 shed some new information about what that place is. I mean, is it some supernatural world we're just supposed to accept, or is it some sort of allegory? __________________ "The name is Tin; Used is just an alias. I'm everything Shoe Box would like to be." - Used Can of the Aluminium Kingdom

2009-08-20, 16:40	Link #317
Volcanic fire of fires Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Vesuvius	Just got through all these posts and.... Spoiler for EP5: -I was thinking I'd hate Erika, but she actually seems like a interesting character. -ffffft Rudolf. -Interesting that Battler got to see some Kakera. It's possible he could use this to his advantage. -Lamba and Bern -As of this game, Battler and Nanjo are the only people to survive first twilight in all games (that we know of, anyway...) This is pretty creepy in my opinion lol. -Dlanor is gonna become another meme character xD -If Battler has read Higurashi, shouldn't he realize Furudo Erika sounds like Furude Rika? Since he didn't, it supports my theory that Higurashi and Umineko really take place in the same world. And also ZOMBIE HIDEYOSHI ROFL. I knew he was more important than we thought! pumps fists Also: was it ever mentioned what Battler's "powers" were after becoming the Endless Sorcerer?

2009-08-20, 15:56	Link #312
k//eternal do you know ベアトリーチェ様? Join Date: Dec 2003 Age: 35	I thought that was established ages ago though (just not 100%)

2009-08-20, 15:57	Link #313
Marion The Great Dine Join Date: Feb 2009	Same here. I thought it was obvious that Meta-World Beatrice isn't the same as Game World Beatrice since EP 2 And I remember the Hideyoshi thing. Man that was hilarious XD Me: Wait what Hideyoshi aren't you dead omg zombies are involved in this game D:

2009-08-20, 16:29	Link #316
k//eternal do you know ベアトリーチェ様? Join Date: Dec 2003 Age: 35	You don't think it's ridiculous to demand a reference for someone's "thoughts"? I could go find old posts where I've talked about the meta world as being above the magic on the board, but it isn't exactly a constructive use of time. When Beatrice tells you in EP2 that she placed herself as a "piece" on the game board, I took it as a sign that the "piece" Beatrice was a separate entity. It wasn't clear that the magic was a separate "reality" until EP3, but once it was, it should have been sufficient to place the anti-mystery board as an existence parallel to the anti-fantasy one (both being below the meta-world).