(L) The Surprise of Haruhi Suzumiya (Novels 10/11) Spoiler Discussion

[ultimatemegax]

Originally Posted by shiroi mahotsukai

Those two were quite good, we're getting quite a collection. How many are there anyway?

18 profiles and 1 catch-all for the rest. I'm updating this post with the files for the fanbook. (end shameless plug) Tsuruya-san went up today and there should be a release scheduled for every day of this week. That's the last link for this thread as it should be about Surprise and not the fanbook. I'll make a post in the appropriate all-novels thread when done with the book (which might be finished next month if this schedule holds true...)

[shiroi mahotsukai]

Thanks for the link, now I know what to watch for.

[Tiranas]

So I finally got around to read Surprise in its entirety.
Since several of the translators frequent this forum I wanted to express my thanks for their work and ask about something I found a little unclear. This will contain a lot of rambling and theorizing so please don't be too harsh if it doesn't make much sense since i rarely actively participate in forums.

I guess we are not really supposed to completely understand how the diverging and integrating timelines work but what exactly happened when alpha and beta merged? Did one take priority? Some stuff koizumi says seems to suggest alpha.
And most importantly what happened to people's memories?
Now Haruhi clearly remembers yasumi but also says "Yuki's better now" so she doesn't just remember one of the two but some kind of mix. Sasaki, tachibana and taniguchi also clearly have memories belonging to beta. But the only two people who shoul really have two complete sets of memories are Kyon and Koizumi. I guess if everyone in the world would suddenly remember experiencing the same week twice that would cause quite a stir.
The only sentence I found addressing this is this one:

"For the most part, the world remained the same but there were different memories that sprung up from what Koizumi calls the α and β periods. Excluding the SOS Brigade, it seems it only affects Taniguchi, Kunikida, Sasaki and Kyouko Tachibana."

First, did they remain the same from alpha's or beta's perspective? And the memories of the people mentionoed in the quote aren't the only thing that should differ between the timelines (for example the track team meeting or not meeting yasumi, the results of kyon's tests depending on whether he studies with Haruhi).
Additionally it seems like its completely arbitrary which memories are retained. But somehow there has to be one set of coherent memories within each person which would then be neither alpha nor beta but a third timeline. And would said timeline then just be an artificial memory or what "actually" happened?

I can reconcile with most things but it just seems too convieniet how memories from the two timelines were distributed. But maybe I just misunderstood how the whole reintegration of the timlines worked. Any insight on this would be welcome.


Aside from this potential plothole (or lack of insight on my part) I quite enjoyed the new volume. Plenty of KyonxHaruhi hints. However if it turns out that the feelings between kyon and Sasaki aren't as completely platonic as they claim (I at least have my doubts, especially on Sasaki's part) I could almost be tempted to jump ship...

[ultimatemegax]

Originally Posted by Tiranas

So I finally got around to read Surprise in its entirety.
Since several of the translators frequent this forum I wanted to express my thanks for their work and ask about something I found a little unclear. This will contain a lot of rambling and theorizing so please don't be too harsh if it doesn't make much sense since i rarely actively participate in forums.

I guess we are not really supposed to completely understand how the diverging and integrating timelines work but what exactly happened when alpha and beta merged? Did one take priority? Some stuff koizumi says seems to suggest alpha.
And most importantly what happened to people's memories?
Now Haruhi clearly remembers yasumi but also says "Yuki's better now" so she doesn't just remember one of the two but some kind of mix. Sasaki, tachibana and taniguchi also clearly have memories belonging to beta. But the only two people who shoul really have two complete sets of memories are Kyon and Koizumi. I guess if everyone in the world would suddenly remember experiencing the same week twice that would cause quite a stir.
The only sentence I found addressing this is this one:



First, did they remain the same from alpha's or beta's perspective? And the memories of the people mentionoed in the quote aren't the only thing that should differ between the timelines (for example the track team meeting or not meeting yasumi, the results of kyon's tests depending on whether he studies with Haruhi).
Additionally it seems like its completely arbitrary which memories are retained. But somehow there has to be one set of coherent memories within each person which would then be neither alpha nor beta but a third timeline. And would said timeline then just be an artificial memory or what "actually" happened?

I can reconcile with most things but it just seems too convieniet how memories from the two timelines were distributed. But maybe I just misunderstood how the whole reintegration of the timlines worked. Any insight on this would be welcome.


Aside from this potential plothole (or lack of insight on my part) I quite enjoyed the new volume. Plenty of KyonxHaruhi hints. However if it turns out that the feelings between kyon and Sasaki aren't as completely platonic as they claim (I at least have my doubts, especially on Sasaki's part) I could almost be tempted to jump ship...

We're only sure about Kyon and Koizumi's memories. I could've worded that a lot better and probably would've caught it if I hadn't been rushing myself during editing. Kyon says his memories only differ between alpha and beta for Haruhi, Nagato, Mikuru, Koizumi, Sasaki, Kyouko, Taniguchi, and Kunikida. Everyone else was the same or weren't met in either side of his memories. That's what he was trying to say. but I worded that badly. Sorry about that.

Is it convenient for how the memories assembled? I'd say so, but that is how it was written. It'd be mentally difficult if it were otherwise though. My mind gets stressed everything I have to translate anything with time travel; I could only imagine how difficult two sets of memories would be.

[Tiranas]

Well in any case I'm grateful for the clarification.

Unfortunately that also means the novel itself doesn't seem to adress the problem I see with the whole memory-thing at all. I'd really like to know how the thing is structured in Haruhi's or sasaki's head for example.
Does Haruhi remember holding the entrance examinations despite Yuki being ill? Or nursing her and holding the examinations simultaneously? She certainly wouldn't just accept remembering the same week twice without investigating.
And since Sasaki clearly remembers visiting Kyon's house and their conversation there (only happening in beta) in the epilogue, does that mean she has just memories from beta, a mix of alpha (where she just didn't do much) and beta or just both sets of memories despite not "fusing" with her counterpart.

Not that anyone here could answer that with what information the novel gives us, I'm just illustrating what bothers me about the whole resolution.

I guess I could just tell myself that everyone's subconcious sorted the events to make sense of them somehow but that seems too weak. Or maybe yuki had some huge memory data manipulation to do.

Not that this is the only thing vague in the novel but unlike Kuyou's apparently split "personality"(if that word is really applicable to her), Sasaki's Closed Space or Kyon's significance in a power transfer I don't see much of a chance it will be touched again in future volumes.

I don't just want to complain though since I still enjoyed it a lot overall. Especially Sasaki turned out more intriguing than I would have exspected after Dissociation. And Haruhi's enormous growth as a person, which is becoming more obvious than ever, has already been adressed by plenty of people so I'm not going to ramble about that too.

[Ithekro]

Well this is Haruhi here. She can remember what she wants to remember.

[virox]

If I remember correctly, Koizumi adressed this problem, right?
He said that he is the Koizumi from the alpha timeline, but still has the memories of both.
So this is what I think: All the events that happened in the Alpha timeline did happen, everything else from the Beta did not, or got reverted.
In other words, Kyon gets the test results he earned from Haruhi's teaching, Yuki is not sick anymore etc.
Problems could only arise when someone tries to track back something that happened in the Beta timeline but now got reverted.
I have to admit, I don't know if there was any event in the Beta timeline that can't simply be reverted without causing contradictions, because I didn't read chapter 7 and 8 yet, but that's how I think it worked out.
Of course, the stuff from the Beta timeline really did happen, but it only exists in the people's memories, specifically in the memories of Kyon, Haruhi, Nagato, Mikuru, Koizumi, Sasaki, Kyouko, Taniguchi and Kunikida, and unless it can be proven it never happened, there shouldn't be any continuation problems.
That's what I think.

[Tiranas]

Originally Posted by Ithekro

Well this is Haruhi here. She can remember what she wants to remember.

This is actually close to what I'll tell myself as long as there are no further revelations. We know Haruhi's subconscious and Yasumi as its embodiment are responsible for the divergence into alpha and beta. So when they were integrated again everyone ended up with the memories they have due to some vague desire of Haruhi's for a smooth transition (or simply put: she just dindn't want the whole thing to cause a mess).

Of course that would mean that somewhere deep down she would not only have to be almost omnipotent but also almost omniscient to be able to tell who could safely be entusted with which memories form beta. But as you said, we're talking about Haruhi here so her awesomeness knows no bounds anyway.

Intrestingly she would also be deceiving herself in a way by doing that which would again signify that uncovering paranormal phenomena isn't the most iportant thing for her (anymore) and that the wellbeing of her freinds takes priority.

Naturally this is all just conjecture on my part. I'm afraid I'm starting to to sound like Koizumi babbling on and on without actually having much solid information.

[Tiranas]

Originally Posted by virox

If I remember correctly, Koizumi adressed this problem, right?
He said that he is the Koizumi from the alpha timeline, but still has the memories of both.
So this is what I think: All the events that happened in the Alpha timeline did happen, everything else from the Beta did not, or got reverted.
In other words, Kyon gets the test results he earned from Haruhi's teaching, Yuki is not sick anymore etc.
Problems could only arise when someone tries to track back something that happened in the Beta timeline but now got reverted.
I have to admit, I don't know if there was any event in the Beta timeline that can't simply be reverted without causing contradictions, because I didn't read chapter 7 and 8 yet, but that's how I think it worked out.
Of course, the stuff from the Beta timeline really did happen, but it only exists in the people's memories, specifically in the memories of Kyon, Haruhi, Nagato, Mikuru, Koizumi, Sasaki, Kyouko, Taniguchi and Kunikida, and unless it can be proven it never happened, there shouldn't be any continuation problems.
That's what I think.

This is also what I infer from Koizumi saying he's the alpha-version. I don't think it's explicitly stated but it would certainly match with Haruhi's/Yasumi's intention being to "override" beta. So I think we interpreteted that similarly.
I just have a little trouble imagining how the people who didn't merge with their other self (which only Kyon and Koizui did and thereby gaining two complete sets of memories) sturctured these memories from two timelines to make them seem coherent. Especially those who aren't aware of the whole timeline divergence like Haruhi Kunikida and Taniguchi. Because in their minds it should just be one week and therefore there has to be some kind of memory selction at work. This is what I meant when I said it seemed a little arbitary or convenient for plot purposes.

[ultimatemegax]

Disclaimer: The theory based below is that of my own theory that I came up with myself. There is nothing from any Japanese source that states this.

We all believe that Yasumi is made to be how a younger Haruhi would be (ignoring the whole stand-offish side), correct? What if instead of Haruhi herself making Yasumi unconsciously, it was someone else who made her? There is the possibility that it was actually Sasaki who could have made Yasumi and sent her back.

1. Sasaki did not want to hold the powers at all. If the beta line were to continue undisturbed, it was very possible she would have them forced onto her. It was only due to the intervention of Koizumi and Mikuru (big) appearing that caused Fujiwara to lose his temper. Thus creating Yasumi would prevent that from happening.
2. Sasaki would not know about the trip that Haruhi took to the baseball game and would only imagine her as she saw during the majority of elementary school. That would explain why Yasumi was so energetic compared to Haruhi.
3. Finally. The whole "Watashi ha Suzumiya" would make more sense as Sasaki always addresses her as "Suzumiya-san" instead of "Haruhi." I believe that Haruhi would think of herself moreso in the first name basis instead of "Suzumiya."

Again, this is just a theory that I literally just came up with. Feel free to poke holes in it and tell me why I'm wrong.

[shiroi mahotsukai]

Originally Posted by ultimatemegax

Disclaimer: The theory based below is that of my own theory that I came up with myself. There is nothing from any Japanese source that states this.

We all believe that Yasumi is made to be how a younger Haruhi would be (ignoring the whole stand-offish side), correct? What if instead of Haruhi herself making Yasumi unconsciously, it was someone else who made her? There is the possibility that it was actually Sasaki who could have made Yasumi and sent her back.

1. Sasaki did not want to hold the powers at all. If the beta line were to continue undisturbed, it was very possible she would have them forced onto her. It was only due to the intervention of Koizumi and Mikuru (big) appearing that caused Fujiwara to lose his temper. Thus creating Yasumi would prevent that from happening.
2. Sasaki would not know about the trip that Haruhi took to the baseball game and would only imagine her as she saw during the majority of elementary school. That would explain why Yasumi was so energetic compared to Haruhi.
3. Finally. The whole "Watashi ha Suzumiya" would make more sense as Sasaki always addresses her as "Suzumiya-san" instead of "Haruhi." I believe that Haruhi would think of herself moreso in the first name basis instead of "Suzumiya."

Again, this is just a theory that I literally just came up with. Feel free to poke holes in it and tell me why I'm wrong.

The only thing I can think of is how would Sasaki have done it, if she didn't have any powers at the time, since if it was, as you say, to prevent them being forced upon her would she be able to do something like that? Good theory though.

[ultimatemegax]

Originally Posted by shiroi mahotsukai

The only thing I can think of is how would Sasaki have done it, if she didn't have any powers at the time, since if it was, as you say, to prevent them being forced upon her would she be able to do something like that? Good theory though.

Sending Yasumi back in time from later in the beta line where she was granted the powers she didn't want was what I was thinking. I forgot to mention that.

[Tiranas]

Originally Posted by ultimatemegax

Disclaimer: The theory based below is that of my own theory that I came up with myself. There is nothing from any Japanese source that states this.

We all believe that Yasumi is made to be how a younger Haruhi would be (ignoring the whole stand-offish side), correct? What if instead of Haruhi herself making Yasumi unconsciously, it was someone else who made her? There is the possibility that it was actually Sasaki who could have made Yasumi and sent her back.

1. Sasaki did not want to hold the powers at all. If the beta line were to continue undisturbed, it was very possible she would have them forced onto her. It was only due to the intervention of Koizumi and Mikuru (big) appearing that caused Fujiwara to lose his temper. Thus creating Yasumi would prevent that from happening.
2. Sasaki would not know about the trip that Haruhi took to the baseball game and would only imagine her as she saw during the majority of elementary school. That would explain why Yasumi was so energetic compared to Haruhi.
3. Finally. The whole "Watashi ha Suzumiya" would make more sense as Sasaki always addresses her as "Suzumiya-san" instead of "Haruhi." I believe that Haruhi would think of herself moreso in the first name basis instead of "Suzumiya."

Again, this is just a theory that I literally just came up with. Feel free to poke holes in it and tell me why I'm wrong.

I never would have thought of that but it's a compelling idea.

What might support this:

1. Yasumi exactly takes Sasaki's place in at least two events: The phone call and the visit to Kyon and his sister. Haruhi shouldn't have any knowledge of those events
2. Even if Koizumi considered the possiblility that it wasn't Haruhi who saved them from going down the beta-route, he would never admit it. After all it could support the idea of the rivaling esper faction that Sasaki has a legitimate claim to haruhi's powers
3. using an anagram like in Yasumi's name just kind of suits the image I got of Sasaki. Granted, that's not much of an argument.

What could contadict it (none of those is a real dealbreaker though):

1. Sasaki didn't really get to know Haruhi that well, she just recognized her as an intresting person and a possible friend. So wheter she could create a Yasumi who can answer Haruhi's written exam in a way that would intrigue Haruhi and who can create a website that suits Haruhi's rather unique sense of aesthetics (according to Kyon the new site is rather hideous) seems doubtful
2. Yasumi mentions towards Kyon's sister that her smile hairpin is special to her and therefore she can't give it to her (yet). Even if sasaki saw haruhi with said hairpin she probably wouldn't know of any special meaning it might hold since they neven actually talked.
3. The flower yasumi left might get important in the future. Why would she bother to bring something like that if she was Sasaki's agent seeing how Sasaki's only objective would probably be to undo the harm Fujiwara and Kuyou have done?
4. It just seems unlike Sasaki to create her agent in the image of someone else. Her philosophy would be more like: Face your own problems head-on and and rely on your capabilities. Not that she would be too stubborn to accept help if necessary but if she was in posession of those powers she probably wouldn't need it anyway.
   Of course you could say she does it this way because she always regards those powers as Haruhi's to have and Yasumi is her way of expressing that. So this is probably a rather weak point.

If I had to make a bet now I would probably still go with Haruhi as yasumi's creator but there's just too much we don't know.
Regardless of that, Sasaki's story is not finished in my view. Both her Closed Space and the esper organization that formed independently from Koizumi's are still there and this volume only revealed how Fujiwara wanted to use them but not why they came into existence in the first place. This and I simply want her to come back because I've taken quite a liking to her character.

[dragon4dudes]

Originally Posted by Tiranas

I never would have thought of that but it's a compelling idea.

What might support this:

1. Yasumi exactly takes Sasaki's place in at least two events: The phone call and the visit to Kyon and his sister. Haruhi shouldn't have any knowledge of those events
2. Even if Koizumi considered the possiblility that it wasn't Haruhi who saved them from going down the beta-route, he would never admit it. After all it could support the idea of the rivaling esper faction that Sasaki has a legitimate claim to haruhi's powers
3. using an anagram like in Yasumi's name just kind of suits the image I got of Sasaki. Granted, that's not much of an argument.

What could contadict it (none of those is a real dealbreaker though):

1. Sasaki didn't really get to know Haruhi that well, she just recognized her as an intresting person and a possible friend. So wheter she could create a Yasumi who can answer Haruhi's written exam in a way that would intrigue Haruhi and who can create a website that suits Haruhi's rather unique sense of aesthetics (according to Kyon the new site is rather hideous) seems doubtful
2. Yasumi mentions towards Kyon's sister that her smile hairpin is special to her and therefore she can't give it to her (yet). Even if sasaki saw haruhi with said hairpin she probably wouldn't know of any special meaning it might hold since they neven actually talked.
3. The flower yasumi left might get important in the future. Why would she bother to bring something like that if she was Sasaki's agent seeing how Sasaki's only objective would probably be to undo the harm Fujiwara and Kuyou have done?
4. It just seems unlike Sasaki to create her agent in the image of someone else. Her philosophy would be more like: Face your own problems head-on and and rely on your capabilities. Not that she would be too stubborn to accept help if necessary but if she was in posession of those powers she probably wouldn't need it anyway.
   Of course you could say she does it this way because she always regards those powers as Haruhi's to have and Yasumi is her way of expressing that. So this is probably a rather weak point.

If I had to make a bet now I would probably still go with Haruhi as yasumi's creator but there's just too much we don't know.
Regardless of that, Sasaki's story is not finished in my view. Both her Closed Space and the esper organization that formed independently from Koizumi's are still there and this volume only revealed how Fujiwara wanted to use them but not why they came into existence in the first place. This and I simply want her to come back because I've taken quite a liking to her character.

Just a few thoughts:

Supporting arguments

1. What if both parties wanted to call Kyon at the same time, but it was simply a matter of who happened to hit the dial first and the one who dialed later decided that whatever she was going to say wasn't incredibly important and didn't try later.

Counter-arguments

1. I wonder how Sasaki would have answered that questionnaire herself. I have a feeling that she probably would have answered similar to how Yasumi did. Similarly, Sasaki and Haruhi seem to have relatively similar thought processes anyways.
2. Was the smile hairpin important ever? I can't remember...

1. Doesn't Haruhi have a similar mindset? Correct me if I'm wrong.

At any rate, the theory is interesting ultimatemegax. This could also imply that beta happened once. It could also continue on the single entity timeline theory mentioned some where. I'd elaborate, but I'm not even understanding what I'm thinking.

But I do agree that Sasaki is worthy of more mention.

[Tiranas]

Originally Posted by dragon4dudes

Doesn't Haruhi have a similar mindset? Correct me if I'm wrong.

That's true of course. Maybe I should clarify. In this scenario Sasaki would be completely aware of the powers on her disposal. Therefore creating a Haruhi-like proxy for herself doesn't seem to be the most practical or forward way. Considering what Yuki did with them in disappearance the possibilities seem almost endless.
In Haruhi's case everything would take place at a subconscious level and Yasumi would be the literal manifestastion of that. And short of creating a perfect clone of herself (which would of course have created a whole new set of problems) Yasumi was probably as close as she could get.

As for the hair ornament:

“Hey!” My sister pulled at Yasumi’s sleeve. “So I was saying just now. I want a hair clip like yours! It’s not sold in shops anymore right? Please!”
“Sorry!” Yasumi bent down and looked straight into my sister’s round eyes. “This is a treasure I've had since I was small like you. I can’t give it to you now. But I might drop by again sometime in the future.”
The smiley-face hair clip held her hair together like a bird’s nest. I had a feeling that it served a greater purpose, namely as a proof of her identity;

and:

Quickly taking a look at it, Haruhi grabbed it out of my hand. "Ah, that. I used to wear something like this. I remember it had to be in elementary school though. I lost it when I went into middle school. But did she wear this too?"

Whether it's really important hinges on the word "treasure". I don't know what implications the word it has been translated from has.

[ijuinkun]

Haruhi's statement about how she only wore it in elementary school and "lost" it at the start of middle school implies to me that Yasumi may also be linked to the sort of mindset that Haruhi had before middle school. It was the spring of that year that Haruhi went to the baseball game and became aware of the relative insignificance of regular people, which is assumed to be the beginning of her dissatisfaction with the world at large.

[Tiranas]

Originally Posted by ijuinkun

Haruhi's statement about how she only wore it in elementary school and "lost" it at the start of middle school implies to me that Yasumi may also be linked to the sort of mindset that Haruhi had before middle school. It was the spring of that year that Haruhi went to the baseball game and became aware of the relative insignificance of regular people, which is assumed to be the beginning of her dissatisfaction with the world at large.

Rereading it while posting the quote here I came to pretty much the same conclusion. I Have to admit it totally flew over my head the first time though. Bit it surely is a nice twist how Haruhi losing her smile(y) and the start of her melancholy coincide (sorry for the stupid pun). So it's probably less of a plot device and more of an artistic one.

Alas, this doesn't help much in determining Yasumi's creator. Personally though, I feel that if it is mainly a metaphor for Haruhi's psychological development, it would seem more meaningful if Yasumi originated from Haruhi's subconscious. This would allow some nice insight into her current state of mind.

It would also potentailly shed a new light on Yasumi saying she might return ("But I might drop by again sometime in the future. We're just two small boats riding along the flow of this world. In the future, I should return here again, right?"). Maybe it would not literally be her but rather Haruhi overcoming her "melancholy" for good and returning to a happier mindset. I know that's far-fetched but Yasumi seems to have served her purpose plotwise so I don't see a reason for her to return in the flesh.

[Classified Info]

I searched for a bit what kind of topic would have been perfect to expose my thoughts, but I got suggested to post in this one, and it looks like it fits the best.

Ignore the missing capitals in some names.

(It may be that i will skip something, most likely because i'll have forgotten it)

Here it begins

I think the figure of Kyon is quite simple: he's the one who Haruhi chose, and the one she wants to grow up with. Kyon has the role of Virgil in Dante's novel, to accompany her and make her grow up and get mature. Haruhi starts being a quite antisocial girl, but this is more likely because she gets easily bored of anything. She would like to live in a world full of weird phenomens, would like to encounter espers, time travelers, aliens and so on. I think any kid would like something like this. Kyon already left those fantasies behind and is growing up, even tho he finds himself involved is so many weird things, he doesn’t know anymore what to believe.

Haruhi, in the beginning is really a kid, and behaves like one. She creates closed spaces because she isn’t happy with the normal life, and vents in those spaces like mad. The goal of Itsuki, mikuru and yuki is to observe her and keep her entertained in order to maintain the status quo, because she’s a capricious girl and would otherwise do catastrophic things. With the passing of the time, however, she changes, and this thanks to Kyon being, somehow, her guide. He’s the only one who Haruhi listens to. She begins to get entertained even with normal things, stops creating closed spaces, in other words, she starts getting more mature and abandoning the fantasy of espers aliens and so on. In the last novels she still organizes outings, which goal is to search for weird happenings, but it turns always on to be just an excuse to hang around with her companions.

She doesn’t know it, but she’s feeding her love for Kyon. Mhm let’s say it’s not exactly love, I’ll further explain this afterwards. This can be proved by the following

- Haruhi chooses kyon at the beginning, and opens herself to him
- Even tho she uses kyon as a slave, and has put him in the last rank of the SOS dan, we all know that kyon occupies rank1 for her
- When she recreates the world, kyon is the only one she brings with her
- The fact that the day after she puts on a ponytail, means she somehow cares about what that kyon, in her dream, told her
- When Haruhi sees Kyon with Mikuru, she somehow gets jelous (this is also noticeable when Haruhi is making a ponytail on mikuru, but when she notices kyon is staring at her, she immediately stops)
- In the anime, when Kyon and Haruhi fall off the cliff, in the Lone island syndrome ep2, and Kyon lands unconscious , Haruhi is really scared, but she sheds an invisible tear of joy when Kyon gets up
- During the baseball match and the day of sagittarius, she puts her faith in Kyon while playing
- When Kyon enters in a state of coma, during the disappearance of haruhi suzumiya, she stays on his side for the 3 days.
- In the surprise of haruhi suzumiya, when she hears that Sasaki is a close friend of Kyon, she gets disturbed and starts creating closed spaces again, because she’s jealous.
- In the surprise of haruhi suzumiya, when they both fall from the window, kyon is brought to a future where Haruhi is grown up: that Haruhi doesn’t talk to Kyon harshly like it always does, but she rather appears to be calm and gentle, and when she realizes that that Kyon comes from the past, after she’s been called by the future Kyon, she mouths “See you later”. This, in my opinion, means that: in the future, Kyon and Haruhi will attend the same university, Haruhi will have become mature, and she will probably be coupled with Kyon. She also doesn’t seem to be surprised by the Kyon from the past, and this only means that she came to discover her powers (probably in the near future Kyon had to use the “John Smith” secret to solve troubles he’ll get involved in), but since she got mature, she can now control them, and probably put them to rest.
She most probably somehow got aware of his powers exactly during this time(by “this time” I don’t mean the future Kyon’s been to, but the time when they both got saved by the celestials and have been brought back to normality) . Afterall, during the wepilogue, she states that YUKI'S ALLRIGHT NOW, but also states that "YASUMI HAD TO LEAVE THE SOS DAN" , so this means she got memories of both the stories, because in the story where Yasumi appears, nagato doesn’t feel sick, and there wouldn’t be the need to think “yuki's allright now”. But probably she, once again, acted unconsciously… or maybe not.
However, this might just be a vision Kyon had about the future, revealing that he’ll attend the same university as Haruhi and nothing else.(-1 on this)
- In the surprise of haruhi suzumiya, when at the end Kyon lands on her bed, standing on her, she doesn’t really mind it, like she knew what had happened; however she seems to be surprised so who knows? Maybe she knows and doesn’t know at the same time, whatever, things got interesting, didn’t they?


On the other side, as far as Kyon is concerned, here it comes:
- Kyon is dragged anywhere by Haruhi, and even tho he complains like a bitch, he likes it
- Kyon finds Haruhi very charming, but never tells her any compliment
- When they are both trapped in the closed space created by Haruhi, Kyon kisses Haruhi, and I don’t think he didn’t like it (beside that ponytails turn him on, lol)
- The following day, when Haruhi has a ponytail as she wanted to see if Kyon really liked it, she somehow can confirm that the dream was closer to reality than ever, when Kyon states that she’s good with that ponytail.
- Even tho Kyon refuses more than once to be attracted by haruhi, he really is, both physically and mentally. When Haruhi is singing in Live a Live, no matter how he tries to remain indifferent, he likes that song (probably just because Haruhi is singing it in a bunny costume, and most probably because it’s haruhi) and that is demonstrated by the tapping of his finger according to the rhythm of the music (this is more a little detail, but still)
- During the Endless Eight, there is one night when they stare at stars in the sky. When haruhi and mikuru fall asleep together, Koizumi says “Why not hug her from behind and whisper her <I love you> ?” and Kyon refuses to do such thing; but when Koizumi says “Then I shall do it”, Kyon’s is somehow disturbed by it (this is more noticeable in the anime, in the last ep if I’m not mistaken, but even in the book kyon states something like “I don’t know what kind of face I made at that time, but…”) and his face is a proof; if koizumi didn’t immediately point out he was joking, Kyon would have probably beat him up.
- “It’s only when we lose them that we come to know how they were important for us” referring to both things and people(in this case the latter), can be applied to the disappearance of Haruhi suzumiya. It’s only when Haruhi is missing that Kyon really realizes how he was attached to her, and he really goes in a rampage when no one remembers of her name. According to how much he complains and how many times he said he would like to live a normal life, he shouldn’t be that panicking, instead he should be happy that Haruhi disappeared, since she was his source of problems…. The thing is that Kyon likes that world, and even tho he could live a normal life, with a smiling shy yuki, a moe mikuru, a smart koizumi and a normal irreverent haruhi, he still prefers that tornado of troubles the real Haruhi is.
- During the Disappearence of haruhi suzumiya, when Kyon gets up from the bed, he asks Koizumi if it was only him who visited Kyon: this clearly means that kyon cared very much if Haruhi had visited him or not, and when notices Haruhi sleeping on his right side, he starts caressing her smooth lips while smiling
- During the Surprise of haruhi suzumiya, Kyon leaps through the window to save Haruhi. This really would be a touching scene, if it ever got animated. The faith put on Haruhi, no matter what would have happened, he would even have succumbed with her. A jest that Kyon wouldn’t probably do for anyone else. The list of details he lists about Haruhi’s body is significant in my opinion, because it’s only when he’s nearing death that he notices what was probably more important to him, but he maybe didn’t have that much time to fully express his feelings (even by thought).
- It appears that, when he jumps one month in the future, ending in Haruhi’s bed, he’ll give her a present the same night. We don’t know what it is, but this will be probably revealed in the next novel.

As far as Itsuki is concerned:
- Itsuki tells Kyon many times “Didn’t you really/already notice it?” referring to the fact that Haruhi has clearly feeling towards Kyon, and that Kyon doesn’t understand (or better, doesn’t want to understand) them
- During the disappearance of haruhi suzumiya, Itsuki envies Kyon, because haruhi looks at him in a different way.
- Last thing, that has nothing to do with what stated so far: during snowy mountain syndrome, Kyon appears in Itsuki room, and according to Itsuki, Kyon acts in a weird way. I just laughed hard when I imagined Kyon flirting and trying to anally violate Koizumi, and him not opposing hahaha


If you survived this textwall, I’ll now explain the “love” word I used at the beginning. The relation between Kyon and Haruhi:
- They are both jealous of each other
- They have both put huge faith in each other
- They like each other
- They both have respect for each other (this is slightly noticeable, but they have really consideration for each other)
- Let’s not forget they kissed

If this is not officially a love relationship, it is however the equivalent. Afterall, if you think about it, love isn’t exactly based on the above things? Haruhi wouldn’t ever admit she loves Kyon (not now at least), but would probably admit the above, and same goes for Kyon.

Theories like KyonxYuki or KyonxMikuru are less likely to happen:

As far as Mikuru is concerned:
- Kyon’s only infatuated by her, like any other boy would be by a pornlike girl
- It is probable that in the future where Asahina(big) comes from, kyon and her were more than friends, and this is why she tells kyon not to get too much attached to her.
- This relation is however impossible since mikuru comes from a different time plane and cannot have any sentimental relations.

As far as Yuki is concerned:
- Kyon mostly considers her just a friend, but cares very much about her.
- In the disappearance of haruhi suzumiya, he clearly chose to stay with the powerful yet crazy haruhi and an expressionless nagato, rather than a just powerless irreverent haruhi and a normal shy nagato. In that changed world he would have had a good chance of ending up with nagato, but that just wasn’t his desire.
- Yuki shows some feelings towards kyon, after the world has changed and she’s just a normal shy girl, but it’s kyon who prefers the other version.


As far as Sasaki is concerned:
- Sasaki, tbh, really has feelings towards Kyon. The fact that in her eyes he’s the only one that treats her as a normal person, beside being the only one Sasaki wants to talk to about private things, appears to me as a confession; Kyon, on the other side, doesn’t clearly feel anything towards her, but just sees her as a friend (let’s remember it was sasaki that stated to be a close friend of him; Kyon would have never thought such thing).
- Still, in the surprise of haruhi suzumiya, Kyon clearly preferred to stand on haruhi’s side. When he got proposed to transfer the powers of haruhi, who was unstable, to sasaki, who was stable, he was reluctant, because he was sure that haruhi was changing and getting mature, and it wasn’t really necessary to do such thing. This is another proof of kyon’s faith in haruhi.

One last thing:
When Tanigawa, during an interview, stated the following:
Q: I think the Haruhi Suzumiya series is basically "a boy meets a girl" story (not "a boy-meets-girl" story). But how are the characters in the series not honest?
Tanigawa: I didn't intend to describe them in that way. But while writing unconsciously, perhaps I (unconsciously again) think non-conforming characters make for more conflicts and disagreements of opinion and that makes the story easier to develop.

I think he meant that his characters weren’t honest because Kyon many times refuses to show or admit his feelings for Haruhi, when they are pretty much clear, and the same goes for Haruhi.

[Tiranas]

Originally Posted by Classified Info

Afterall, during the wepilogue, she states that YUKI'S ALLRIGHT NOW, but also states that "YASUMI HAD TO LEAVE THE SOS DAN" , so this means she got memories of both the stories, because in the story where Yasumi appears, nagato doesn’t feel sick, and there wouldn’t be the need to think “yuki's allright now”. But probably she, once again, acted unconsciously… or maybe not. [/B]

This is something I also tried to figure out a few posts back and it still doesn't make sense to me why she doesn't get suspicious if she actually remembers both.

As for the other points in here:

Haruhi certainly is immature and antisocial in the beginning and Kyon is mainly the one helping her to "grow up". He is the only one to tell her off and set some limits if necessary (e.g. the movie shoot) but I guess the rest of the brigade just turning into close friends to her has also greatly contributed to her becoming more sociable and caring. And lets not forget that in some respects Haruhi is actually more mature than Kyon. If she wasn't Sasaki couldn't really "leave him in her care"(no actual quote but there's something along those lines). In some ways Haruhi fills the void Sasaki has left in Kyons life (e.g. she takes Sasaki's place in keeping him from completely slacking off at school).

The whole romace territory of course is a minefield since it can result in endless shipping debates (which I'm sure its not your intention).

But I guess most people would agree that the most evidence as of now points towards KyonxHaruhi. You listed a lot and there's probably more. And what people tend to forget because of Kyon's constant complaining: he essentially started this whole thing in Melancholy by trying to hit on Haruhi despite the warnings of others.

Koizumi simply hides his feelings too well to be certain of anything. His Disappearance-version did not have to be as secretive since the world wasn't on the line. His behaviour in disappearance can be interpreted in at different ways: he actually has those romantic feelings OR it was a misperception on Nagato's part OR some sort of worship of a being with godlike powers that also gave him his esper powers was translated into romatic love because the powers which warrant that worship and the bond formed by the esper powers were not present anymore in the other world.

Sasaki is also tough to figure out. Her weird non-confession in the epilogue could be just what she said it was (she is a little strange after all) or her finally coming to terms with her feelings but at the same time realising that Kyon has already made his choice. She constantly states that who should hold the powers is for Kyon to decide and even though no feelings seem involved here at first glance it is all very similar to Disappearance where him choosing the original world also seems to be a choice of Haruhi over Yuki (as a potential love interest).

[dragon4dudes]

Regarding Yuki being "alright now" and Yasumi leaving the SOS dan occurring in the same aftermath timeline, how I interpret it is as follows; where aftermath refers to the events following the joining on alpha and beta:

Since the epilogue is a juxtaposition of alpha and beta routes, what we see isn't alpha XOR beta causes aftermath, but rather alpha AND beta causes aftermath.

Originally Posted by Yasumi Surprise Final page 77

They're both you, Senpai. It's not that one is real and one is fake. It's just that the history is a little different, but it's the same time and same world.

Obviously, we cannot actually perceive 2 different histories at the same time. As a result, those timelines, alpha and beta, merged and overwrote each other. On the same page, Kuyou says, "-----This is the beginning. Of every possible crossroad…" This says that what we read in the epilogue, is merely one of infinitely many combinations of merges between alpha and beta. Thus, some sample timelines may include, history = {only beta, only alpha, current epilogue, nothing interesting happened}.

I'm not really sure where, but I'm pretty sure Kyon wondered how the world was going to resolve its multi-history issue. He seemed to understand it as whatever occurrence was believed or thought to have occurred, occurred. I can't remember.