[Game] Umineko - Spoilers, Theories, Interpretations

[Renall]

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

But Erika controls her Piece. She moves it around, makes it do things, and can even make moves without informing a Gamemaster. This implies that she can totally control and see through the senses of her character as if she WERE her character. So if that's the case, shouldn't Erika see things in the Parlor as they REALLY are? If Kanon's there, that causes some errors. If he's NOT there, why doesn't she speak up?

Exactly. And if she doesn't control her piece, why hasn't she complained about it when she was told she does?

Originally Posted by Kealym

Whoa-za ... are you responding to a specific theory, or every one out there? Part of why I support Kanon having a body is that it means Erika's Mary-Sue powers worked EXACTLY as we were told, and she gets to still be as intelligent and anal retentive about details as we're told she is.

That wasn't directed at you. I was just taking the point to its logical extreme. If Erika's powers don't work the way she's been told they do, there's absolutely no way to talk around the fact that she was told they work a certain way. That, at least, is inescapable; both Erika and Battler were informed that Erika could do x, y, and z. Whether Erika actually can or not doesn't matter; she was told she can, and that means the statement's truth can be determined.

Should we assume Erika's abilities work as described to her and Battler, then any explanation we offer for the various issues in ep5 where Erika "should have" observed someone or something require a specific explanation with textual evidence that shows that Erika was deceived. We can speculate until we're blue in the face as to how Erika "might have" been deceived, but it's worthless; we need something explicit, like the way people interfered with Erika and didn't give her time to get a good look at the "corpses" in ep5, or the obvious way Beatrice beat her on the Logic Error. These are supportable cases of Erika's perceptions either being interfered with or her conclusions being faulty based on accurate observations. If we can't at least provide that much evidence, anything we'd guess about how she "might've" perceived a situation is so much intellectual wankery.

If we assume Erika's powers are not subject to the rules that were presented to her, we have no other choice but to conclude that Bern, Lambda, and Battler himself (in ep6 at least) are liars. Liars who have as their objective the intentional deception of Erika for reasons which are not advanced in the text. I would be fascinated to know why someone like Erika was conjured into being, deceived wholly about her situation and the abilities she has to navigate that situation, toyed with, trolled with false successes, and killed off ignobly. Granted, this does sort of square with my claims from before about Sorcerer BATTLER being the exact same kind of bored asshole that all the other higher-level witches are, but I don't think it was Ryukishi's intention that we see BATTLER as a villain.

[Wanderer]

I think Erika is just kind of a "what if" insert character. The things she does on the Game Board that aren't depicted in the Game Board narrative are just made up on the spot in the Meta-World. As long as what she makes up is possible for a human, the Game Master must accept it (this isn't a rule per se, it's just that the GM would have no logical ground to deny it).

The most clear example of this is Erika in EP6 when she kills off all the First Twilight fakers. Since we learned from EP8 that the GM knows everything that happens on the Game Board (with the exception of things done by a second Game Master), BATTLER should have known everything Erika's Piece was doing the moment it happened. This basically leaves us with these two options:

• Erika assumes incorrectly that she can take actions with her Piece without BATTLER's awareness, and BATTLER knows this and plays the fool. I don't like this explanation, mostly because I don't think Erika would make such an assumption
• Retroactive writing-in: In the context of the Meta-World, Erika's Piece had not killed anyone on the Game Board until the moment Erika said she did. Thus nothing actually happened without BATTLER's immediate awareness.

If you apply this also to the trial of EP5 then Bernkastel providing Reds and Lambdadelta "acknowledging" Erika's powers makes a lot more sense. This means that what's going on in the Meta-World as the Games progress is really a fight for control of the narrative of the given Game Boards.

So what does this mean for Piece-Erika's observational powers? These powers are not used passively; their effects are entirely made up from a Meta-World context. They are a tool for the Player to enforce their own narrative; a way for the human side to actually make the story take on certain truths that the witch's side can't reject or evade. Otherwise no matter what the human side says that they saw or did, the witch could just say they saw it wrong or didn't do what they thought they did.

So, in sum, Erika's Detective Authority powers and natural observational abilities do not exist to ensure Meta-Erika knows what her Piece sees. They exist as a tool to control the Game Board narrative from the Meta-World, not to understand it. Incidentally, trying to control rather than understand is probably Erika's fundamental mistake.

[Keriaku]

Originally Posted by Wanderer

...

I'd say that this is one of the best and most fitting theories we have for the all Chiru arcs as a whole. This makes a lot of sense for EP5, EP6 and EP8.

We know that 'control' of the board came up in EP8 with the goats. And this really seems to fit the spirit of Erika's Detective Authority being introduced at all.

Good post, Wanderer.

[Renall]

Yeah, it's a shame that there's really almost nothing that is able to directly support it, and it still doesn't address the actual problem, and all of that. But aside from being pure speculation with little practical value, I suppose it's pretty useful.

I mean, if you're telling Erika that she operates a certain way, but actually she's more like a role-playing game player whose actions only manifest when she takes an active interest in doing so, then you still run into the problem that she's being fed information by SOMEONE, SOMEWHERE. If this information is permitted to mislead her as long as she doesn't purposely invoke the powers that are supposed to prevent her from being misled, then you've changed the game to "How subtly can we lie to Erika such that she won't think to actually do anything, even though she could and probably would just do it for everything because that's what her character is like?"

Are you incapable of understanding how allowing that level of deception means that Erika was always playing against a stacked deck? And that putting her in that situation means that everyone who knew the game was rigged is complicit in her mental torture, including the so-called good guys? Or is this just another example of people tolerating evil because it's cool?

[Oroboro]

Not once does Erika even try to figure out the truth. All she ever cared about was forcing people to accept her version of the truth, or trapping Battler in the logic error.

So even if the game was rigged it doesn't matter, because she was trying to play an entirely different game.

[AuraTwilight]

That's not really true, though. She tried pretty damn hard to expose the truth in EP8, and on top of that, her theories were consistent with the facts available to her. Just because she was trying to make people buy into a false truth doesn't change that she, personally, upheld that truth as what she believed to be correct.

[jjblue1]

Okay... since I think among us there are more than one theories about why Erika didn't see Kanon here's mine.

This is my theory/understanding about how the gameboard work.
Note that Umineko never states clearly how it works so I guess it becomes a catbox open to more than one interpretation.
If you've different ones I'll be happy to hear them.

Oh and the following spoilercut are merely so that this post won't be too long.
Although they contain references to the games they're mostly a list of theories.

Spoiler for How the gameboard work:

1) Pieces are just pieces. Meaning a piece has no more freedom of action than your ordinary fanfiction character or your roleplay character, and if there's not someone 'playing' with them they're left there to take dust. However rules for moving the pieces is they have to be more or less in character unless there's an explanation for it (Ex: George can't suddently start wearing female clothes and talking like Jessica, unless there's an explanation to it, for example they're playing some sort of game) and that they've to keep their own abilities (George can't forget his martial arts, nor Kumasawa can know them in his place unless there's an explanation for it, for example George is faking not knowing them and Kumasawa using them is just a fantasy scene). This also refers to knowledge (Battler can't know all of sudden things about magic circles while Maria suddently forgets them).

2) The human side can move 1 piece at time (Bern didn't move just Erika, she also moved Battler and likely she moved alternatively Battler and Erika during the epitaph solving), the Gamemaster (GM) can move more than one pieces at the same time (Pretty obvious as the GM controls what everyone does. Lambda also moved Battler to oppose him to Erika in the fight in Kinzo's room. If Battler was solely on Bern control or she could have moved Erika and Battler at the same time, Lambda couldn't have used him to oppose to Erika's reasoning).

3) Pieces has also no more consistency than your ordinary fanfiction/roleplay character. Meaning they can't see or touch anything.
However, to make things clearer for the player, he's given a visual of the scene... though the narrator's eyes. However, as the narrator isn't reliable unless he's also the detective, the visual of the scene can trick the player.
Anyway, if you assume pieces are placed on the equivalent of a chessboard, you will have to place them according to what the narrator is saying. The rule for placing them is that fantasy pieces (Gaap, living!Kinzo, Ronove, Siestas, Purgatory Sisters and whatever constitutes magic like butterflies, magic towers and so on) can't be seen by the detective, so the narrator must place them out of the detective's sight. As Shannon and Kanon can't be seen together, it's impossible to place them both in the detective's view. However, as long as it exists a dark spot in the detective's view, they can be placed in the same room.

4) Pieces are 'moved' through oral description of their movements (though likely there are records of the game as a player can go through it again). Description can be detailed or vague. The player must declare his moves to the GM. Interpretation of the description of the movements however can be tricky (Erika can say she 'will try to discover the dead or alive status of a person' and mean she 'will kill said person'. Battler says he'll 'hand Erika enough tape to seal 3 rooms' and Erika 'will be able to use it on everything in the room to her heart content and as much as she wants as long as it's used only to seal 3 rooms completely'). This allows the player to 'move' a piece in ways 'unknown' to the GM, where 'unknown' means merely the GM might not figure out which interpretation the player wanted to give to his/her words.

5) Interpretation of the pieces' actions can be changed through the game as long as it isn't stated in red (Once it's said in red 'I proclaim that the chain lock has been repaired by the duct tape seal and has regained its original functionality. And, thanks to that, I locked the room upon entering it and made this guest room a closed room from the inside once more.' the fact she 'repaired the chain with duck tape' can't be taken back and the same applies for 'she completely severed the heads of all those she killed.'...) though as red also can be subjected to interpretation you can try and force your way out of red.

6) As pieces aren't real people they can technically move in ways that defy realism and look more like a 'miracle'... as long as isn't absolutely impossible for them to do so (for example they can't fly but they can move in an extremely fast way).

7) Certain pieces can use special moves (es: detective authority) though due to this they might lose the chance to use other moves (ex: if you use detective authority you can't be the culprit)

The player is either supposed to know or guess the overmentioned rules... though he can be also told about them if he/she has a witch on his/her side who's feeling generous.

How, according to this, the detective's reliable perspective work.

Spoiler for Detective's reliable perspective:

1) the player can see a representation of what the narrator is 'seeing'.

2) the GM must make sure that, in the representation of the scene, magic scenes are out of the detective's field of vision and, of course, he must have a 'logic' explanation for them. People saw a table floating behind Erika? Either is a trick or they're lying as floating tables don't exist.

3) the player can't see what his piece is seeing as the piece is nothing more than a mental creation that's basically seeing nothing. If his piece is also the narrator though, the player can see a representation of the scene through is piece's eyes. If his piece is the narrator and the detective the representation will be thrustworthy.

4) how reliable perspective is useful if actually the player is seeing nothing from the piece's perspective?

- If the solution of the mystery of the 'floating table' is a lie, the detective can't say he/she see the table floating. Either the table stops floating as soon as the player says the detective will turn (ES: Battler sees Kinzo but, as soon as Erika turns Kinzo has disappeared) or the detective is stopped from turning/seeing what's behind by something (ES: Battler could have realized Shannon's body wasn't in the garden shed but the adults did his best to stop everyone from entering. In EP 5 Erika could have realized the cousins weren't dead is she had looked. The GM stopped her from seeing this covering the 'bodies' with covers and she also tried to have Battler stop her from entering). Of course a lie had better sound realistic and the same applies to the way the detective is stopped from checking or it will sound suspicious (ES: in EP 5 there was a battle of red and blue over how the letter was placed because a letter appearing out of nowhere was obviously suspicious).

- If the solution of the mystery is a trick clues must be present. Erika's abilities will cause her to unfailingly 'spot' the clues or better, 'if the player has Erika search for them the GM must hand them to her'... (In EP 6 Erika is sure no one is hiding Battler's bathroom because 'she had it confirmed with the red', not because she had checked everywhere, and the same applies to the room Battler was supposed to be in) provided that piece!Erika will search for them and that she will search for them in the right spot (ES: A piece sees a table floating in Kinzo's room and piece!Erika goes to search for clues in the kitchen... when they're hidden in Kinzo's room. The GM can safely say Erika found no clues in the kitchen).

Either way having the narrator showing something clearly magical when the detective is around can make easier for the player to spot the trick used... or, in Umineko's words, 'the detective's magic-resisting toxin might destroy the magic'.

Scenes where Shannon and Kanon are in the same place as Erika and how everything I theorized applies to them.

Spoiler for Scenes where Shannon and Kanon:

- The parlour one. They're supposed to be there while she's talking with the cousins. As Shannon is placed behind her, she's surely out of her field of vision. It's not sure if Kanon is as well, though since 'everyone is in the parlour', one of the two must be there. As in that moment they can't both be observed by Erika, nor she tries to observe them both at the same moment, the illusion of them existing at the same time is safe.

- Out and in Kinzo's room. They're supposed to be there while Erika is investigating. However Erika is focused on Natsuhi from the moment she said she was the last to see Kinzo. They can be placed behind the siblings and the other servants and, as everyone apart from Erika consider them as accomplices, no one will mention there's just one of them and will do his/her best to hide them from view.

- Erika questioning people. It's never confirmed if Erika tried to question them together. If the player declared 'I'm going to have the Erika questions the pieces one after the other' Shannon and Kanon didn't need to show up at the same time. Also, at a certain point, Natsuhi was drinking tea. Since someone must have done the tea, it's a hint everyone wasn't present when Erika was during the questioning (and technically in the scene Shannon, Kanon and Kumasawa are never showed).

- 'Hideyoshi's room'. They were supposed to be present when the corpse of Hideyoshi was found. Erika joined later so the first part of the discussion can be a fantasy. Note that white text, speaking of how Eva returned with help, says 'Eva dashed back, bringing everyone with her.' However the white text mentioning 'everyone' is clearly lying as Natsuhi is in the closet and Erika is checking the shutter.
Erika joins just when Battler is saying the trick to the closed room might be the shutters can be opened from outside or that one can escape from the bathroom. Eva was probably already arguing with Nanjo about moving Hideyoshi's corpse. All stuffs that can distract a player from checking if 'everyone' is really in the room. And again is possible to place Shannon and Kanon behind the adults' backs... though they can't leave until Erika moves away from the door. At this point Battler demands again that Erika will move out of the way, and Erika will move away further, though his action might have meant to cover her view. Now that the people were leaving the room and that, in order to do so they've to pass close to Erika, it was starting to become possible to notice that only Shannon was present (Shannon went to retrieve the covers with Kumasawa so likely was more visible). If however Battler places in front of Erika he's tall enough to stop her from viewing clearly the scene. At this point it can be assumed that 'Kanon, who Erika never spotted because he was still behind the adults, left with them'. Once out Kanon and Shannon both speak. Erika hears them but Kyrie immediately talks to her, likely stopping her from leaving the room and seeing that out of it there's just Shannon. Note that Erika also let herself be stopped from checking the closet.

- the parlour again. It's Kirye that declares that they have "decided to stick together from now on. First, we're carrying Hideyoshi-san's corpse to the parlor. Can you hold off playing detective until we get there?" implying they're all in the parlour though once Erika joins with Natsuhi she uses detective authority to say none of the pieces have a right to escape the discussion.
The scene is tricky because Erika says "... Oh, sorry. Could you close that door for me?" and we're shown both Shannon and Kanon. The answer is "Y, yes..." but we're not told who said it only that they closed the door, thought it's Kanon that locks it.
However it is possible to say nowhere is said that Erika looked at them while saying that sentence. This makes possible to work a scene in which Erika was still staring at Natsuhi while saying out loud that sentence secure one of the servants would move to close the door.

Note that to use Umineko's words all the overmentioned solutions are:

... an unfair trick......
If it was a sleight of hand, it'd just be a cheap one.
If it was a mystery, ...it'd just be cheating......
However, in this witch's game, it's a legitimate......'logic trick'...

So the solutions doesn't fit a mystery, merely a logic trick.
I guess I'm not good enough to find a solution for a mystery, just for a logic trick so, if you've a theory for a mystery solution, please share it.
Note that if there's no solution fitting for a mystery, even through finding the solution for the logic trick was fun, I'm disappointed as I prefer mystery to logic tricks.

[LyricalAura]

Unrelated to the current discussion, I've been rereading the whole story since I got the PS3 games, and...

Spoiler for Screenshot from EP1:

Damn, that was just lying out there in the open, wasn't it?

[Wanderer]

Originally Posted by Renall

I mean, if you're telling Erika that she operates a certain way, but actually she's more like a role-playing game player whose actions only manifest when she takes an active interest in doing so, then you still run into the problem that she's being fed information by SOMEONE, SOMEWHERE.

It's not like Lambda made some promise about Erika's powers. It was Erika and Bern that decided that Erika had these powers. Lambda just acknowledged them whenever Erika presented (made up) evidence using those powers. Why should Lambda give Erika more information than she has to?

Originally Posted by Renall

If this information is permitted to mislead her as long as she doesn't purposely invoke the powers that are supposed to prevent her from being misled, then you've changed the game to "How subtly can we lie to Erika such that she won't think to actually do anything, even though she could and probably would just do it for everything because that's what her character is like?"

You're arguing that it's unfair to subtly lie to someone? In Umineko?

And you're just wrong about Erika asking every question. She was fooled by Battler's "Everyone else is in the cousins' room" when she could have asked more questions but did not. It doesn't matter what the theory is, that happened.

Originally Posted by jjblue1

Interesting when you also look at that last Red from Erika at the end of EP6:

Hi, pleased to meet you! I am Furudo Erika, the detective!! I may be an uninvited guest, but please, welcome me!!
I am the visitor, the 18th human on Rokkenjima!!

So hmm? Detectives are unwelcome on Rokkenjima? It's not a solvable Mystery? It's interesting because we can actually suppose that Erika had even guessed ShKanon but could not attack it because it wasn't a Mystery solution. This would mean that since she was built as a "detective" she was doomed from her inception.

It fits perfectly with Toku's theory from a couple pages back. Anyway, just some thoughts.

[AuraTwilight]

It's not like Lambda made some promise about Erika's powers. It was Erika and Bern that decided that Erika had these powers. Lambda just acknowledged them whenever Erika presented (made up) evidence using those powers. Why should Lambda give Erika more information than she has to?

There's a difference between providing partial information and LYING. Moreover, there is a difference between lying about the Gameboard and lying about the rules of the fucking game.

You're arguing that it's unfair to subtly lie to someone? In Umineko?

The method, degree, and manner in which you're suggesting Erika has been deceived has never happened at any other point in the story, and there are no hints regarding it. Also, under your theory, Battler and Beatrice are complicit in lying to, and deceiving Erika for no other reason than to torture her for the lulz. They're supposed to be our heroes, wtf.

And you're just wrong about Erika asking every question. She was fooled by Battler's "Everyone else is in the cousins' room" when she could have asked more questions but did not. It doesn't matter what the theory is, that happened.

She did press the issue, though. It roused her suspicion, and she did ask some questions. She didn't ask the right questions, but it's better than just taking things for granted like you're suggesting she did with the Parlor Scene.

You are, as you do SO OFTEN, using unsupported ideas and personal biases to support other unsupported theories and biases. It's a circlejerk where you can never be proven wrong because your standards are arbitrary depending on how much you like an idea. You latch onto an idea you like and work backwards from it instead of the other way around.

So hmm? Detectives are unwelcome on Rokkenjima? It's not a solvable Mystery? It's interesting because we can actually suppose that Erika had even guessed ShKanon but could not attack it because it wasn't a Mystery solution. This would mean that since she was built as a "detective" she was doomed from her inception.

I think you're making a silly assumption here. Erika is literally uninvited, she crashed here from shipwreck both times she appeared, and she was never a piece in Beatrice's games. Her Detective status has nothing to do with it other than the fact that she's taking that station away from Battler.

[Used Can]

All I've got to say is that I'd gladly end up trapped in Erika's Logic Error, if you know what I mean.

[Kealym]

Originally Posted by LyricalAura

Damn, that was just lying out there in the open, wasn't it?

Yeah, alot of EP1-4 read that way after reading Chiru.

This brings something up, though - am I the only one who slightly disagrees with the evaluation being made in that bit? About the Ushiromiya's being male dominated? The only male Ushiromiya's who even get a say in family affairs are Kinzo, who's lingering on death, Rudolf, who's fairly indifferent (and makes babies whether he has a wife or not), and Krauss, who's a big ol' softie towards his wife and daughter.

I could believe it more fully if the Ushiromiya family weren't so damn small. Yeah, I knoe 18 characters was a lot to absorb at the beginning, but 13 family members, 5 of whom are children (I include George in this group only because the plot itself keeps insisting he does) and 3 of whom aren't blood related, isn't that big of a clan, and the political situation of the household, while still certainly ... notable, isn't as grand as it's described to be.

Originally Posted by Used Can

All I've got to say is that I'd gladly end up trapped in Erika's Logic Error, if you know what I mean.

A cold, dank place of no life, that involved clipping apart your body piece by piece, and can only be escaped by finding some poor sap willing to take your place in the despair?

[Renall]

Originally Posted by Kealym

This brings something up, though - am I the only one who slightly disagrees with the evaluation being made in that bit? About the Ushiromiya's being male dominated? The only male Ushiromiya's who even get a say in family affairs are Kinzo, who's lingering on death, Rudolf, who's fairly indifferent (and makes babies whether he has a wife or not), and Krauss, who's a big ol' softie towards his wife and daughter.

Unfortunately a lot of what we're told doesn't match what we're shown in Umineko. Either the fiction characters are not like their real counterparts, or public perception of the family was not accurate to how they actually behaved, or maybe the story is just inconsistent and Ryukishi wrote that the family was male-dominated and kind of forgot that, in any generation other than Kinzo's, that wasn't actually true.

Krauss is shown to have a close supportive relationship with Natsuhi. Eva takes the lead in her relationship with Hideyoshi. Kyrie is Rudolf's right hand in business matters. And Rosa is a single businesswoman. Jessica is the designated head, George's love (gag me) is suggested by Ryukishi to be genuine devotion, Battler appears to have no belief of that sort with respect to women, and Maria is friends with a super-powerful witch.

Where, exactly, this family is demonstrably male-dominated is not clear to me, other than Kinzo being kind of a dick to Eva. And he makes fun of Krauss more than he ever does her.

Originally Posted by Used Can

All I've got to say is that I'd gladly end up trapped in Erika's Logic Error, if you know what I mean.

That's sick dude, she's... wait, how old is Erika supposed to be again? 16? Older? She talks like she's older in that one scene.

Originally Posted by Kealym

A cold, dank place of no life, that involved clipping apart your body piece by piece, and can only be escaped by finding some poor sap willing to take your place in the despair?

Well, apparently it's easily escapable by dumping her.

[AuraTwilight]

That's sick dude, she's... wait, how old is Erika supposed to be again? 16? Older? She talks like she's older in that one scene.

She's supposed to be 14.

[Toku]

@Renall and Aura: I'm sorry, I just can't understand this massive-scale trick that you two keep insisting is being played on Erika. One of the reasons why I can't is that I keep seeing quotes like this:

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

There's a difference between providing partial information and LYING. Moreover, there is a difference between lying about the Gameboard and lying about the rules of the fucking game.

Where nothing is really explained in any detail, only in vague terms... And I'm not sure exactly what the meaning behind it is. In particular, can you give me specific examples of these horrible lies?

Some say Lambda did guarantee that Erika has a 100% certain perspective, others don't seem to agree... I don't think any of us are on the same page at all, and I have no idea which ones are right.

About all I can gather is that, if it is at all possible to play any kind of trick whatsoever on Piece!Erika's (and by extension Meta!Erika's) perspective, then regardless of whether or not it's even an actual lie, and regardless of whether or not it would be possible to realistically play this trick on other humans in real life, then it is some kind of terrible conspiracy which even the protagonists are in on.

The method, degree, and manner in which you're suggesting Erika has been deceived has never happened at any other point in the story, and there are no hints regarding it. Also, under your theory, Battler and Beatrice are complicit in lying to, and deceiving Erika for no other reason than to torture her for the lulz. They're supposed to be our heroes, wtf.

Which is another thing I wonder about. When did everybody forget all the cruel stuff that Beatrice (and by extension Yasuda) has done? You didn't gloss over this just because she's suddenly being portrayed as a protagonist, right? Well, it's true that it's possible to say that she's actually (largely) innocent in Prime, if in fact Prime exists, but...

[jjblue1]

Originally Posted by Renall

Are you incapable of understanding how allowing that level of deception means that Erika was always playing against a stacked deck? And that putting her in that situation means that everyone who knew the game was rigged is complicit in her mental torture, including the so-called good guys? Or is this just another example of people tolerating evil because it's cool?

I'll probably sound cold but I don't get why you seem to be so upset about Erika being subjected to mental torture.

Every player gets his share of mental torture, think at Battler who, at first, doesn't even understand his family are nothing else but pieces and feel pain each time one of them dies and he's also asked to suspect them and didn't even know that magic scenes might have never happened and believed he had to give a rational explanation for 'towers showing up in the garden' or Ange who gets destroyed/killed so horribly in EP 4.

If this wasn't bad enough every piece gets killed, betrayed, scared to death, trampled over and Erika, before anything else, is a piece.

You sounds like you were expecting Erika should get a nice treatment, despite everything in the game implied Lambda and most of all Bern (who's likely the one who fed her info about her abilities) could care less about Erika.

The game of the witches IS a sadic game. You should get upset about the game, not just about Erika.

Erika knows she's a piece and that witches are only having fun with her, she knows that Lambda doesn't plan to lose easily and will try to trick her and she knows Bern can do horrible things to her.

It's a given they aren't trustworthy.

It's also a given no one couldn't play what you seem to consider a 'fair game' without handing the player the solution, or making the game way too easy and it's made clear that Battler couldn't allow himself the luxury of losing.

Evil is never cool but the game of the witches is like a bullfighting.

We can either say bullfighting is evil or watch it and accept the bull will be killed but feeling sorry for a single bull among the many that are killed during the various fights doesn't really feel logical, nor to expect the torero won't kill that specific bull and call him evil when he does.

Oh, and if someone cares I find bullfighting evil. Sorry to all the bullfighting fans.

Originally Posted by Kealym

Yeah, alot of EP1-4 read that way after reading Chiru.

This brings something up, though - am I the only one who slightly disagrees with the evaluation being made in that bit? About the Ushiromiya's being male dominated? The only male Ushiromiya's who even get a say in family affairs are Kinzo, who's lingering on death, Rudolf, who's fairly indifferent (and makes babies whether he has a wife or not), and Krauss, who's a big ol' softie towards his wife and daughter.

I could believe it more fully if the Ushiromiya family weren't so damn small. Yeah, I knoe 18 characters was a lot to absorb at the beginning, but 13 family members, 5 of whom are children (I include George in this group only because the plot itself keeps insisting he does) and 3 of whom aren't blood related, isn't that big of a clan, and the political situation of the household, while still certainly ... notable, isn't as grand as it's described to be.

Well, there's also the seating arrangement and the way Kinzo spoke with Natsuhi when she couldn't have a baby.
Eva also complained about Jessica being the heir, though she also regretted it because she realized she was discriminating Jessica in the same way as she had been when younger.
Though that sentence could be either due to Yasu's perception or due to how the Ushiromiya family was perceived by outsiders or both (I don't really remember in which game it came up).

Though I'll say Kinzo's kids aren't really thinking that about women.

[Renall]

Originally Posted by jjblue1

I'll probably sound cold but I don't get why you seem to be so upset about Erika being subjected to mental torture.

Every player gets his share of mental torture, think at Battler who, at first, doesn't even understand his family are nothing else but pieces and feel pain each time one of them dies and he's also asked to suspect them and didn't even know that magic scenes might have never happened and believed he had to give a rational explanation for 'towers showing up in the garden' or Ange who gets destroyed/killed so horribly in EP 4.

If this wasn't bad enough every piece gets killed, betrayed, scared to death, trampled over and Erika, before anything else, is a piece.

There is a significant, and critical difference between Battler's treatment and Erika's: Battler was never purposefully misled to his own detriment (it's actually better that he had sympathy for the pieces, as that was the right response to begin with), and Beatrice did not enjoy having to torment him.

By contrast, we must assume that, at the very least, everyone complicit in Erika's deception and torture (under this theory) is indifferent to her. This makes absolutely no sense given what we know about BATTLER and Beatrice's characterization. Beatrice does not like deceiving people unnecessarily, so short of the Logic Error, there is no reason for her to do that to Erika (so she does have some excuse, unlike the others). BATTLER would be entirely sympathetic to Erika's position even if he found her methods deplorable... but her methods are deplorable because she believes she's playing a particular game with particular rules. Who knows if her perspective might shift if she knew otherwise?

And Bern and Lambda... well, you have to pretty much assume they're just messing with her for fun. And that's pretty messed up. It was messed up when they did it to Battler too.

[Klashikari]

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

She's supposed to be 14.

There is no detail about her exact age. Remember that she is "described" as having a middle school girl appearance, but that's that.
She potentially can be 16 years old.

[jjblue1]

Originally Posted by Renall

There is a significant, and critical difference between Battler's treatment and Erika's: Battler was never purposefully misled to his own detriment (it's actually better that he had sympathy for the pieces, as that was the right response to begin with), and Beatrice did not enjoy having to torment him.

By contrast, we must assume that, at the very least, everyone complicit in Erika's deception and torture (under this theory) is indifferent to her. This makes absolutely no sense given what we know about BATTLER and Beatrice's characterization. Beatrice does not like deceiving people unnecessarily, so short of the Logic Error, there is no reason for her to do that to Erika (so she does have some excuse, unlike the others). BATTLER would be entirely sympathetic to Erika's position even if he found her methods deplorable... but her methods are deplorable because she believes she's playing a particular game with particular rules. Who knows if her perspective might shift if she knew otherwise?

The fact he has simpathy for the pieces and believed them to be real people instead than pieces causes him to:
- waste a lot of time trying to prove there's a 19 person
- believe in everything the pieces say for quite a lot of time
- feel emotional pain when they die
- stop reasoning in EP 2 because he found too painful to suspect one of them

While the first 2 'merely' hamper his reasoning the last 2 definitely constitute emotional torture.
Plus he was also mislead into thinking that, if he were to solve the game, he and his family would be let free to leave the island. We know this is not going to happen.

And should we go into the Kanon and Shannon are dead thing?

The only advantage Battler has compared to Erika is that, in the end, Beato wanted Battler to win.

Battler can't wish for Erika to win, nor can let her do so and he can't even avoid the fight enterely. He needs her to show his understanding Beato's game and he needs to defeat her to protect Beato's game.

Maybe he felt sorry for her... but it's unlikely he could allow himself the luxury of helping her.

Also, due to Erika's condition as Bern's piece and due to Bern's will of... well, ruining Beato's game, it's unlikely Erika will be allowed to find a solution that will respect the game.

So really, why should battler make easy for Erika to win?

[LyricalAura]

Originally Posted by Kealym

This brings something up, though - am I the only one who slightly disagrees with the evaluation being made in that bit? About the Ushiromiya's being male dominated? The only male Ushiromiya's who even get a say in family affairs are Kinzo, who's lingering on death, Rudolf, who's fairly indifferent (and makes babies whether he has a wife or not), and Krauss, who's a big ol' softie towards his wife and daughter.

That's the case for the modern crop of children, but Kinzo is only the most recent family head, and you have to consider that there was a huge main family before he took over. I don't think he invented the family ranking system himself; he's probably just perpetuating traditions that he grew up with.

Come to think of it, Yasu pretty much grew up in the Ushiromiya household, so she was exposed to this poisonous atmosphere for her whole childhood too. Considering the kind of complexes the adults developed growing up, it's pretty understandable that she would freak out after being told it was impossible for her to have children. Especially since she had self-worth issues from the beginning.