General Gun Thread

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by SaintessHeart

It is technique. I am guessing you are using a common 9mm pistol, but the only pistol I have shot before is a SIG P226.

A couple of revolvers (.22LR and .357), and a SIG. (I think it was a P226 too.)

A big part of the problem with the revolvers is that they didn't sit right in my hand. I didn't have that problem with the SIG, but there was more recoil.

Distance is also important, because pistols tend to ride up more than rifles and submachine guns when the round is fired due to recoil and the slide pulling backwards to chamber the next round.

What I was taught was to look and focus on the target until everything else outside of it becomes blur, then simply point and shoot if the target is less than 20m. Holding the pistol in firing stance and aiming will make you more nervous and screw your aim, but if you focus until everything else becomes blur, the promethium sights will form a straight line. Put the line over the target's eyes will hit the temple, over the nipples will hit the cartoid artery/below the neck, over the elbow joints (around the bottom-most of the ribcage) will hit the heart, over the crotch will hit the stomach, and over the knees will hit his crotch - within 10-15m with lots of practice.

It was from 25m (regulation distance for competitive shooting, apparently). It's funny, I was taught the reverse - focus on the sights, blur the target. (And damn do those tremble... Video games definitely didn't prepare me for that.)

[SaintessHeart]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

A couple of revolvers (.22LR and .357), and a SIG. (I think it was a P226 too.)

A big part of the problem with the revolvers is that they didn't sit right in my hand. I didn't have that problem with the SIG, but there was more recoil.

Your hands are big I think. The .22LR revolvers are so cute and slender - I never fired them but I did learn how to maintain them.

SIG is a double-action pistol, and it is a very instinctive weapon. The only two weapons which I fired with good grouping are the P226 and the FN MAG, the rest I had to fire at least twice before getting used to them.

It was from 25m (regulation distance for competitive shooting, apparently). It's funny, I was taught the reverse - focus on the sights, blur the target. (And damn do those tremble... Video games definitely didn't prepare me for that.)

I hit 25, 15, and 10m ranges. I was taught tactical shooting (I think it is called "kill house" style in US) through both aimed shots and quickdraw.

With regards to aiming, the one you mentioned was "aim and shoot", the standard way of aiming a gun. I was taught focusing on "draw and kill" in split seconds, so it might be entirely different. And before the command was given, I find that staring hard at the target before the command was given to fire adds alot to your accuracy.

And video games are totally different from firing real guns. I had a surprise on how hard it is to rake the slide during that session, I had to put my entire left hand on it and pull while pushing the grip forward. And the recoil is difficult to control, I only got the target on my 5th or 6th round the first time at 25m.

The SIG is an excellent weapon - easy to clean, maintain and shoot, though the trigger system is a little complex for first-timers due to the dedicated hammer-takedown. The only beef I have with it is the slide being harder to pull than a rifle's.

Anyway, are you taught to fire it one-handed (the other on the hip) or two-handed (the non-master below the magazine well)?

P.S If you have a chance to fire the MP5 you'd be surprised how different your accuracy is on both guns despite both are chambered for the 9mm.

[Anh_Minh]

One-handed. One hand in the pocket.

[SaintessHeart]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

One-handed. One hand in the pocket.

Competitive shooting stance. The margin of error is much higher if you don't time your breathing and eye movement (for some people who blink constantly when they are nervous) correctly.

Did they teach you to pull the hammer back, inhale before pulling the trigger, and shoot between heartbeats?

[Anh_Minh]

Inhale while lifting the gun, exhale while bringing it down, hold my breath till I shoot. (Hell, do people really know when their heart beats?)

[SaintessHeart]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

Inhale while lifting the gun, exhale while bringing it down, hold my breath till I shoot. (Hell, do people really know when their heart beats?)

When focusing extremely hard, sometimes you can even hear your heartbeats till you can count them. What I was taught with with the L96A1 was to shoot between my heartbeats, and the instructor said it can be applied on other weapons as well.

Though I don't see much of a difference when I draw the pistol and fire off two rounds immediately - didn't have the time to even count.

[Lost Cause]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

So I've tried pistol shooting today. I expected to be kinda bad, but I'm not confident I can hit the broad side of a barn. Unless maybe I'm inside the barn.

Is eyesight important for that stuff?

It is, but as long as you can focus on your front sight like you were taught then it shouldn't be a problem.
You mentioned the the revolvers you were shooting didn't fit your hands, if I may suggest you can get aftermaket grips that will adjust the size of the "handle".
And if you ever get the chance try a 1911 .45, for some reason they seem to "fit" just about everybody! And the recoil isn't that bad!

[SaintessHeart]

Originally Posted by Lost Cause

It is, but as long as you can focus on your front sight like you were taught then it shouldn't be a problem.
You mentioned the the revolvers you were shooting didn't fit your hands, if I may suggest you can get aftermaket grips that will adjust the size of the "handle".
And if you ever get the chance try a 1911 .45, for some reason they seem to "fit" just about everybody! And the recoil isn't that bad!

SIG pistols, like the Glock, use doublestack magazines and have a wider magazine well. The M1911 is single stack and is hence much slimmer.

[grylsyjaeger]

The first time I shot handguns was with a STi Target Master in .38 Special and like Linda said; the 1911 frame was perfect for my large hands.

I shot several rounds of IPSC to see if I liked it and well, hell I loved it, just can't spare the time to commit to it.

And like Saintless said, the first time I raked the slide I was surprised how much effort was actually involved in the action. But I'll never forget the feeling of thumbing the slide release and having the slide snap forward with a subtle jump.

The blokes whom I was shooting with were surprised how quickly I picked up quickly acquiring and shooting a target on instinct. Years of competition clay target shooting seems to have paid off there too!

If I ever get the chance to take up IPSC, it'll be with a SiG X-Five AL.



So beautiful...

Still waiting on my Permit to Acquire for the T-Bolt. Hopefully it'll be here tomorrow and I'll be able to pick up the rifle Tuesday.

[Yu Ominae]

Makes me wonder if the Brunei Army had their share of problems with the SAR-21.

[SaintessHeart]

Originally Posted by Yu Ominae

Makes me wonder if the Brunei Army had their share of problems with the SAR-21.

Depends on the number of units exported and how frequently they used it. I think at most it is used by the Special Operations in urban combat, where it will foul up less as compared to jungle or transitionary (rural-to-urban) terrain, or used for base defence.

Like all other weapons, the less it is used, the less likely it is going to foul up. After after firing up to 500+ rounds or being constantly tormented under difficult environmental conditions, the problems will start to show.

It is a weapon built for show, not use. Sometimes I question the use of the 5.56 round in a bullpup weapon, the bullet doesn't kill outright unless it hit critical parts of the body and the hydrostatic shock is overrated, so why the heck should we give it a function to fire it beyond 250m? A normal carbine would suffice, unless the bullet is upscaled, a bullpup would merit nothing more than a futuristic look.

Originally Posted by fallschirmjager

If I ever get the chance to take up IPSC, it'll be with a SiG X-Five AL.

I was wondering why you didn't get a Glock instead.

[Lost Cause]

I have a Glock 17, and it's really a good shooting gun. Only thing is that once your hands start to sweat it tends too get slippery, so I installed one of those inner tube looking sleeves on mine and it doesn't try to slip out of your hand. Other than that it's pretty much indestructible!
I've never fired a Sig, but have heard stories of their accuracy!
fallschirmjager: is that T-Bolt a .22?

[Asuras]

Originally Posted by SaintessHeart

a bullpup would merit nothing more than a futuristic look.

Besides its tactical size in tight environments? I figure bullpup is fairly useful in places like the alleys of a town or city. Nothing worse than swinging around to find your muzzle smacking into a piece of furniture or wall. Then you just lost absolutely critical time.

[Lost Cause]

Originally Posted by Asuras

Besides its tactical size in tight environments? I figure bullpup is fairly useful in places like the alleys of a town or city. Nothing worse than swinging around to find your muzzle smacking into a piece of furniture or wall. Then you just lost absolutely critical time.

Actually I think most soliders are taught to dip the muzzle of their rifle in tight places and bring it up as they see a target. I think it's called the "low ready" position.
Besides aren't most bullpups working parts directly under the cheek? That must be disorientating!

[RandySyler]

Originally Posted by Lost Cause

Actually I think most soliders are taught to dip the muzzle of their rifle in tight places and bring it up as they see a target. I think it's called the "low ready" position.
Besides aren't most bullpups working parts directly under the cheek? That must be disorientating!

You are correct, the standard CQB training is to lower it and "roll" it up to a target, thus why the practice is known in law enforcment around here as "rolling to a target".

[Asuras]

Does it always work though? Wouldn't it be faster to simply turn? What if you're in a doorway? You'd have to lower it pretty far and back up again to get the shot.

[Lost Cause]

Originally Posted by Asuras

Does it always work though? Wouldn't it be faster to simply turn? What if you're in a doorway? You'd have to lower it pretty far and back up again to get the shot.

Well you could draw your pistol and shoot the target with it if your rifle was tied up.

[Renegade334]

Originally Posted by Lost Cause

Besides aren't most bullpups working parts directly under the cheek? That must be disorientating!

That's more or less one disadvantage of the bullpup design; however...having never fired one, I cannot either confirm or deny this.

However, there have been reports about French soldiers being annoyed by the FAMAS rifle's ejection port, which is set more or less right below the shooter's eyes when fired from the shoulder - the smoke vented from the said aperture can irritate your eyes (if you're not donning protective eyewear) or distract you when you're looking right down the sights.

The FN F2000 brings some closure to this issue by funneling all spent rounds to the fore end of the weapon, towards the ejection port right behind the muzzle (where the smoke cannot inconvenience the shooter)...but the tubular cartridge collector isn't 100% perfect and it can jam in certain situations.

[grylsyjaeger]

Originally Posted by Lost Cause

Besides aren't most bullpups working parts directly under the cheek? That must be disorientating!

I do recall an incident in the ADF when a soldier's F88A2 (our version of the AUG) suffered from a critical failure caused by excessive pressure which in turn caused the bolt assembly to pretty much explode through the plastic furniture.

Cut the hell out of his cheek.

The only real fault I'm familiar with with the F88 is that it doesn't like blank rounds during training. They often fail to eject even with the Blank Firing Adapter in place.

[SaintessHeart]

Originally Posted by fallschirmjager

I do recall an incident in the ADF when a soldier's F88A2 (our version of the AUG) suffered from a critical failure caused by excessive pressure which in turn caused the bolt assembly to pretty much explode through the plastic furniture.

Cut the hell out of his cheek.

The only real fault I'm familiar with with the F88 is that it doesn't like blank rounds during training. They often fail to eject even with the Blank Firing Adapter in place.

The SAR-21 took the exact same design and added a kevlar plate covering the assembly, adding to the weight of the gun and making it harder to clean.

I would prefer the ancient M16S1 or the CAR-15. Thank you.