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Old 2013-08-29, 13:54   Link #32981
DokEnkephalin
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I'm still stumped for the 'whydunnit' of EP3 1st twilight. The most sensible ones are still crazy, and the most plausible ones are still contradictory. And the solution to the 'howdunnit' is the sticking point, because any motive I can think of falls apart with the Shannon/Kanon as an accomplice.

And if "Yasu did it" is your final answer but you're still not done thinking for the day, then come play along with this thought exercise: if you didn't have yandere and wicked witches to hang everything on, who else might have selected these victims, and what reason would they have that Shannon would be willing to support?
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Old 2013-08-29, 14:12   Link #32982
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Originally Posted by GreyZone View Post
So was it actually Dawn, that Battler put into Beato's "grave"? (Well in the manga that scene did not even happen...)
It happens but only in the volume version. On the magazines it wasn't printed. You've to buy Ep 7 Vol 1 to see it. I've seen photos of it and it's pretty although if I'm not wrong is 4 pages long... It would be interesting if we could have translated scans of it though... maybe it was cut because the dialogues were an extra hint...
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Old 2013-08-30, 01:34   Link #32983
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DokEnkephalin View Post
I'm still stumped for the 'whydunnit' of EP3 1st twilight. The most sensible ones are still crazy, and the most plausible ones are still contradictory. And the solution to the 'howdunnit' is the sticking point, because any motive I can think of falls apart with the Shannon/Kanon as an accomplice.

And if "Yasu did it" is your final answer but you're still not done thinking for the day, then come play along with this thought exercise: if you didn't have yandere and wicked witches to hang everything on, who else might have selected these victims, and what reason would they have that Shannon would be willing to support?
What's wrong with 'Yasu did it', since EP3 1st Twilight is not an event that took place in the 'real world'? Beatrice's intended answers for her games seems to be that she herself did it regardless of the 'Prime' Culprit and what their motives were.
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Old 2013-08-30, 02:04   Link #32984
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
If the message bottles were written pre-incident, I'd think so. You'd have to be a ballsy or stupid criminal to write out all your various plans to commit murders before you actually commit them.
Well, committing a serial murder like And then there were None basically forces you to plan out your whole approach beforehand. Also I wouldn't consider Yasu an intelligent criminal, if there ever was murder on Yasu's part I would maybe describe them as passionate...an intelligent criminal would opt against raising huge flags being waved in the air screaming "STOP ME!!!"

Quote:
Also it's a bit strange that Ange raises that point (in both the VN and manga, but the manga goes into more detail) and then... seems to forget about Beatrice entirely once she begins focusing on Eva. Wha?
I still think that was Ryukishi trying to write her as a conflicted character who doesn't know herself what she is actually looking for. Amakusa says it in EP8, her initial goal of finding the truth quickly turns into a quest for revenge against anybody and especially Eva for "ruining her life." She knows in a way that Beatrice doesn't exist, so her search for her is more her search for culprit X. Whoever that person X is, in her mind is also the person who wrote the message bottles, because the only thing she knows is, that it was not Maria.

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Originally Posted by DokEnkephalin View Post
And if "Yasu did it" is your final answer but you're still not done thinking for the day, then come play along with this thought exercise: if you didn't have yandere and wicked witches to hang everything on, who else might have selected these victims, and what reason would they have that Shannon would be willing to support?
I don't think that there is much room to argue in this direction because it is made pretty clear that this is something made out between Kinzo, Shannon, Kanon, Genji, Beatrice and Ronove...which is basically just two people (and a corpse) in a room talking about what to do.
There are two different ways to read it in my book,
(A) It actually was just the start of the mystery game. Nobody actually died, since we never saw anybody actually being killed. Shannon and Kanon get magical death-roses (make-up) applied by Genji, Genji gets put to sleep by Ronove (who is basically him), Kinzo bursts into flames but he's dead anyway, Kumasawa is defeated as Virgilia (which could just be an argumentative defeat), and Gohda's demise isn't even shown.
Since the only people actually getting close to the corpses are Kratsuhi and Nanjo, and Eva and Rosa even bring up the idea of a fake murder game to select the next heir, this could very well be completely harmless.

Or (B) It was supposed to be just the harmless mystery game but Yasu lost it halfway through when she became uncertain herself and needed to be convinced by Genji to push through and silence the voices of reason (him killing Shannon and Kanon). Kumasawa tried to argue with her to drop the whole act and had to be disposed of as well, and Gohda was then too much of a liability.

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Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
It happens but only in the volume version. On the magazines it wasn't printed. You've to buy Ep 7 Vol 1 to see it. I've seen photos of it and it's pretty although if I'm not wrong is 4 pages long... It would be interesting if we could have translated scans of it though... maybe it was cut because the dialogues were an extra hint...
Not really much of an extra hint. I don't know why they were dropped for serialization, probably because it exceeded the page-number that was given to them by the magazine and it is technically a non-sequitur to the introduction of Will right before and serves almost no overall purpose that isn't explained by the plot of EP7 in itself. Sure, you could ask who the fuck put the book in the coffin, but since that doesn't become much of a question until EP8 anyway...
With around 70 pages chapter 1 of EP7 is a good 30 pages longer than all the other chapters and maybe the editor was just suggesting to cut at least the most unnecessary part to make it a little easier to follow.
Or it was because the EP6 run was not yet finished and Ryukishi did not want anything to get unnecessarily spoilerific.

Anyway, these are the pages:
Spoiler for EP7 pages:
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Old 2013-08-30, 04:24   Link #32985
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What happened in the 'real world' is immaterial, since the entirety is a work of fiction and a game of logic, and each arc is it's own puzzle. If you reject any of the constraints required for a logical puzzle, then you don't have a solution. If you question the applicability of the rules or the authenticity of the setting, then you don't have enough trust in the writer to actually seek out the solution.

"Yasu did it" is the easy answer I could've already settled on if I wanted to take my mind off the hook -- it doesn't have to be shoved in my face, I already know where it is. But aside from being too easy with a dissatisfying motive, the fact that any of you could've looked it up online leads me to believe that it's probably wrong.

So far, I've managed to construct the means and motive for every other incident without ignoring the Red Rules, so I'm sure it could be done for EP3 1st twilight.
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Old 2013-08-30, 05:11   Link #32986
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Because, you know, Umineko is definitely nothing more than a logic puzzle, and the red is more important than anything else. It's not like Chiru constantly made fun of people who viewed it that way or anything.
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Old 2013-08-30, 07:21   Link #32987
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I didn't say it was 'nothing more', but I've already solved the broader mystery, it's just this one piece of the puzzle I can't leave unsolved. A solution here would actually make the the rest of the episode come together cleaner. The red actually is more important than anything else; it's laid out before you with the guarantee that this is solvable under these conditions. The observations of the detective, within that detective's limitations, the instructions given directly to Battler, and the consistency of established characterization are also important. Throwing these out in favor of meandering through unsupported conjecture somewhere outside the scope of the catbox may be fun, but not fruitful.

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It's not like Chiru constantly made fun of people who viewed it that way or anything.
Cite me one instance of that in Chiru, anywhere amidst the rants about people who give up thinking.
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Old 2013-08-30, 07:32   Link #32988
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I thought of a theory surrounding the Closed Rooms, if anyone would mind checking and either shutting the door on it or not.

This room is a closed room created from the inside. The seals on the windows are intact, so there can be no escape from there. Of course, there is no way to escape by leaving through the bathroom. ......I'll make it simple. There is no exit to escape from except for this door. However, the chain lock on this door is set. You can unset and reset it all you want, but you can only do so from the inside. Furthermore, you are free to go out through the door, but you cannot leave or escape while the chain lock is unset.

Blue Truth: I’ll use the cutters to cut the wire, leaving it long enough to reach the chain lock. I’ll unset the chain lock from the inside. Now, here’s where my trick comes in. I’ll use the ‘wire’ to reset the chain lock, technically from the inside! This is an old classic in the Mystery Genre

Knox’s 4th is satisfied because the Wire and Cutters aforementioned aren’t “hard to understand” or of course a drug.

Knox’s 8th has been satisfied because the Wire/Cutters have already been foreshadowed.
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Old 2013-08-30, 07:34   Link #32989
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Originally Posted by ALPHA-Beatrice View Post
I thought of a theory surrounding the Closed Rooms, if anyone would mind checking and either shutting the door on it or not.

This room is a closed room created from the inside. The seals on the windows are intact, so there can be no escape from there. Of course, there is no way to escape by leaving through the bathroom. ......I'll make it simple. There is no exit to escape from except for this door. However, the chain lock on this door is set. You can unset and reset it all you want, but you can only do so from the inside. Furthermore, you are free to go out through the door, but you cannot leave or escape while the chain lock is unset.

Blue Truth: I’ll use the cutters to cut the wire, leaving it long enough to reach the chain lock. I’ll unset the chain lock from the inside. Now, here’s where my trick comes in. I’ll use the ‘wire’ to reset the chain lock, technically from the inside! This is an old classic in the Mystery Genre

Knox’s 4th is satisfied because the Wire and Cutters aforementioned aren’t “hard to understand” or of course a drug.

Knox’s 8th has been satisfied because the Wire/Cutters have already been foreshadowed.
Isn't that the same thing Battler tried to do during his logic-error-nightmare?
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Old 2013-08-30, 08:23   Link #32990
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Well, committing a serial murder like And then there were None basically forces you to plan out your whole approach beforehand. Also I wouldn't consider Yasu an intelligent criminal, if there ever was murder on Yasu's part I would maybe describe them as passionate...an intelligent criminal would opt against raising huge flags being waved in the air screaming "STOP ME!!!"
It's a very odd mixture though, passion and premeditation. Normally the two are completely separate, as people don't generally premeditate murder in a fit of passion and/or premeditate a murder they're not going to commit but for a sudden passionate surge at just the right time.

If they're plans (which it doesn't appear that they are), that suggests the murders were always going to happen, which sort of kills any notion of the culprit just losing control. If they're not, it's sure a funny coincidence... unless of course she's not guilty, which seems to be what Beatrice is implying (and I generally would tend to believe that anyway).
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I still think that was Ryukishi trying to write her as a conflicted character who doesn't know herself what she is actually looking for. Amakusa says it in EP8, her initial goal of finding the truth quickly turns into a quest for revenge against anybody and especially Eva for "ruining her life." She knows in a way that Beatrice doesn't exist, so her search for her is more her search for culprit X. Whoever that person X is, in her mind is also the person who wrote the message bottles, because the only thing she knows is, that it was not Maria.
The problem there is that she ought to know it can't possibly be Eva either. Thus, if Beatrice = Culprit X, then Eva isn't the culprit. If the evidence in front of Ange creates at least the appearance of Beatrice's guilt - and it does - then why is Ange saying "Well, even though I've been handed Culprit X on a platter, I still want to blame Eva even though deep down (see ep4) I don't want to blame her."

It feels cognitively dissonant rather than merely uncertain or conflicted. She knows there is more to the story than she has been told, and in ep4 reacts to this properly with empathy and uncertainty. In ep8 she just recognizes the evidence and ignores it. It goes beyond immaturity into outright irrationality. Now maybe that's the point of that Amakusa scene, but Ange at least pretends to be rational most of the time so it strikes me as odd that she isn't at least trying to reconcile the evidence in her head in some fashion; for example, reaching the conclusion that what Beatrice was doing was probably harmless until somebody ruined it, and then making the emotional leap of "it must've been Eva who did that!" At least that logical leap makes sense even if the evidence for Eva's guilt is exactly the same (i.e. nonexistent). Seemingly ignoring Beatrice as an x-factor is just strange. Even if you think Eva did it, you have to account for Beatrice's actions.
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Old 2013-08-30, 11:31   Link #32991
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Originally Posted by DokEnkephalin View Post
If you question the applicability of the rules or the authenticity of the setting, then you don't have enough trust in the writer to actually seek out the solution.
On the other hand, if you ignore the solution that is basically given to you on a plot level and you start seeing the games as mere works of fiction in a state unrelated to any kind of (fictional) reality, aren't you betraying the trust in the writer as well?
The Red is fairly open and there is actually a lot of people you can blame in each Episode, that is not the problem that Umineko is trying to tackle I'd say, it's rather tackling the problem that we are tackling this problem, if not the fact we are treating it as a problem in the first place.

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Originally Posted by DokEnkephalin View Post
The red actually is more important than anything else; it's laid out before you with the guarantee that this is solvable under these conditions.
Here I'd actually like to draw out EP8 again (and again I'm not sure whether this is in the VN or not, since my laptop decided to burst into flames of oblivion and I'm using a Mac now):
He says that there have always been 2 kinds of Red truth.
One is for states of death, crime scenes and alibis, those that are only applicable to the individual gameboard (examples given are: EP3's death count at the end, EP2's "There are only 5 master keys," and EP4's "Out of the group of 5 people in around Kyrie, Kanon was the first to die. In other words, he was the 9th victim.").
The other one is concerned with character types and the number of people on the island, which is Red that commonly stands abreast in all gameboards. He describes this as truth that also flies outside of the catbox and stands beyond doubt and of course non of these two can proclaim anything about the illusion of the witch (examples given are: EP3's "In 1967, in the hidden mansion Kuwadorian, Lady Beatrice existed as a human," as well as "More than 18 people do not exist on Rokkenjima!!" Also EP5's "Natsuhi was all alone there while drinking tea.")

And this flows right into your question:
Quote:
Cite me one instance of that in Chiru, anywhere amidst the rants about people who give up thinking.
It was actually already picked up in EP5, when Erika delivered a solid statement (in the confines of the board) about Natsuhi being the culprit.
In EP6 it is more in the background, but fairly clearly hinted at by Dlanor when she asks Erika, what she actually gained by turning all these doubts about her boyfriend into Red Truth. She still had no Red Truth about whether he loved or did not love her, simply a huge assortment of evidence which she used to believe in the truth she wanted to believe in. So she was unloved and betrayed because she wanted to be unloved and betrayed.
In EP7 it's Will's whole argument about the heart being equally important and simply searching for truth will get you nowhere.
Finally EP8 almost slams it into your face...well if the VN slammed it, the manga pins it to the stakes and shoots it through your skull with a stake-shooting-device X!

At least in the manga Battler follows his explanation of Red truth with the words:
Quote:
"But Ange...whatever of those meanings my Red would have, the current you wouldn't be able to accept it anyway, right?!
People will only believe what they want to believe in.
Even if I thrust out Red truth, if it was hard to accept you would deny it, if it was hard to bear you might even loose sight of yourself, if it was an unwanted truth you might even pretend not to see it at all
(the panel example here is EP4's "You are not the son of Ushiromiya Asumu").
If you yourself lack the readiness to accept it, Ange, I could impart hundreds of truths to you and it would still lack truth value to you. It would make no sense at all.
You yourself have to think about and find the meaning behind those tears.
Please, somehow, see through it all and find your own truth with unclouded eyes.
"
It get's even clearer when in the battle for the Golden Land the goats start using Red truth to tear everything apart, which forces the meta characters to react with Red on their own, but it's clearly shown as an inferior way to look at things, because it misses the bigger picture.

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Originally Posted by ALPHA-Beatrice View Post
I thought of a theory surrounding the Closed Rooms, if anyone would mind checking and either shutting the door on it or not.
Your hands would still create a connection from the outside to the inside of the locked room, it would still count as sealing the door from the outside. You would have to devise a method by which the wire forces the chain back into it's socket on the wall next to the door only by influence from inside the room.

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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
It's a very odd mixture though, passion and premeditation. Normally the two are completely separate, as people don't generally premeditate murder in a fit of passion and/or premeditate a murder they're not going to commit but for a sudden passionate surge at just the right time.
In case of a Yasu culprit theory you could argue that she wrote so many stories, concerned herself with killing those people on paper so often, that she lost sight of what was real and what not. Additionally driven by the clearly hinted despair about not only being dumped by Battler but also, at least in the stories, completely forgotten, she might have decided to use what was supposed to be only stories as a basis for actual murders.
This would technically go in line with what happens to the epitaph in the stories. It was written as a means to lead the potential next heir, in the best case scenario "Lion", to the hidden gold, but was used as an occult ritual in the stories.

Quote:
The problem there is that she ought to know it can't possibly be Eva either. Thus, if Beatrice = Culprit X, then Eva isn't the culprit. If the evidence in front of Ange creates at least the appearance of Beatrice's guilt - and it does - then why is Ange saying "Well, even though I've been handed Culprit X on a platter, I still want to blame Eva even though deep down (see ep4) I don't want to blame her."
This would explain the existence of EVA-Beatrice as "Ange's guardian and companion", she is the one thing that has kept her from despairing over people blaming her parents, she could always blame Eva, because at least that solution would make sense.
To a certain degree I think that Banquet of the Golden Witch is to a large degree also Ange's reading of the story, which would explain her jumping in at the end on another level as well. Maybe more than Culprit X I think I should have said that Beatrice for her is Culprit ???. She is fairly sure that it has to be someone among the people who were said to be on the island, she knows that it must have been an inside job, and the person she wants to pin this on the strongest is Eva, and yes, not because she hates Eva for surviving but for surviving instead of her parents.
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Old 2013-08-30, 13:32   Link #32992
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Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
Maybe more than Culprit X I think I should have said that Beatrice for her is Culprit ???. She is fairly sure that it has to be someone among the people who were said to be on the island, she knows that it must have been an inside job, and the person she wants to pin this on the strongest is Eva, and yes, not because she hates Eva for surviving but for surviving instead of her parents.
It depends somewhat on how much of the information ep4-Ange got that ep8-Ange actually has access to, because it seems to me like things like Maria's friend and so forth create the impression of a person who very clearly isn't Eva having some unknown involvement factor in the events of the weekend. Ange can't know this person was responsible, and as such could believe Eva was, but it's very very hard to plausibly link this mysterious "Individual X" (let's not call them Culprit X as Ange isn't necessarily going to see them as such) to Eva.

Thus, logically, there's something that Individual X was up to that Eva was not clearly connected with. To reconcile this information Ange would need some kind of viable connection. Now, if we look at Banquet, I suppose that we could see one proposal right there in the fantasy text: Beatrice passed on the responsibility for committing all the murders to Eva, and Eva committed them.

It's just that interpretation doesn't make any sense and takes no stock of Beatrice or Eva's characterization in prior works, let alone reality. I understand the appeal of hating Eva for Ange and I understand why Eva would not take action of her own initiative to counter any of that hate, but Ange is just throwing out things that are right in front of her and not even bothering to halfassedly explain them away with faulty logic. While I could see that in a character who is at heart fundamentally irrational and prone to just ignoring the facts, Ange is a character who pretends to be rational (even though she very often is not), so it seems like she ought to be at least trying to justify these details to herself in a manner that creates a coherent interpretation of all of the facts. The closest we can get to that is something akin to Banquet, and to an outside observer that's a terribly amateurish interpretation that makes it hard to sympathize with Ange intellectually.
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Old 2013-08-30, 21:18   Link #32993
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Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
Not really much of an extra hint. I don't know why they were dropped for serialization, probably because it exceeded the page-number that was given to them by the magazine and it is technically a non-sequitur to the introduction of Will right before and serves almost no overall purpose that isn't explained by the plot of EP7 in itself. Sure, you could ask who the fuck put the book in the coffin, but since that doesn't become much of a question until EP8 anyway...
With around 70 pages chapter 1 of EP7 is a good 30 pages longer than all the other chapters and maybe the editor was just suggesting to cut at least the most unnecessary part to make it a little easier to follow.
Or it was because the EP6 run was not yet finished and Ryukishi did not want anything to get unnecessarily spoilerific.

Anyway, these are the pages:
Spoiler for EP7 pages:
I love you. Though I've to admit I'm disappointed as I was honestly hoping there was something more than in the visual novel in the dialogue...

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Originally Posted by DokEnkephalin View Post
What happened in the 'real world' is immaterial, since the entirety is a work of fiction and a game of logic, and each arc is it's own puzzle. If you reject any of the constraints required for a logical puzzle, then you don't have a solution. If you question the applicability of the rules or the authenticity of the setting, then you don't have enough trust in the writer to actually seek out the solution.

"Yasu did it" is the easy answer I could've already settled on if I wanted to take my mind off the hook -- it doesn't have to be shoved in my face, I already know where it is. But aside from being too easy with a dissatisfying motive, the fact that any of you could've looked it up online leads me to believe that it's probably wrong.

So far, I've managed to construct the means and motive for every other incident without ignoring the Red Rules, so I'm sure it could be done for EP3 1st twilight.
Well, you can read it online but just 'the culprit is Yasu' won't tell much to whose who only read the first arc. You'll have to type much, much more.

Honestly, I know Ryukishi wanted an answer that couldn't be copypasted, but once a secure aswer is reached/revealed it can be typed down and copypasted all around the web... you'll just have to write/read more for the answer to be understood.

The only things you can't copypast are the things for which there's no answer we can type, like who killed people in Prime. We don't know, we can only speculate but speculation can only get us so far.

Though I think it's clear for Ryukishi the whole point of Umineko was to understand Yasu's heart (and maybe the ones of some other characters), not Prime.

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I understand the appeal of hating Eva for Ange and I understand why Eva would not take action of her own initiative to counter any of that hate, but Ange is just throwing out things that are right in front of her and not even bothering to halfassedly explain them away with faulty logic. While I could see that in a character who is at heart fundamentally irrational and prone to just ignoring the facts, Ange is a character who pretends to be rational (even though she very often is not), so it seems like she ought to be at least trying to justify these details to herself in a manner that creates a coherent interpretation of all of the facts. The closest we can get to that is something akin to Banquet, and to an outside observer that's a terribly amateurish interpretation that makes it hard to sympathize with Ange intellectually.
It can be that Ange is just searching a 'sacrifical sheep' in Eva and realizing she wronged her would get her in an unpleasant sense of guilt (as well as opening the possibility that her parents were involved) so that Ange simply doesn't want to see it.

In the manga is shown clearly that in the beginning Ange and Eva's relation wasn't bad but likely the press kept on investigating on the incident and digging up stuffs about all the family.

Ange was in pain, she figured out Eva knew something, she heard the press blaming this and that relative, maybe she started being bullied at school and, although she probably in the beginning tried to defend all the Ushiromiya Eva included, she felt uncertain under constant attacks.

Likely the first time she went to Eva to ask for 'what had happened' she wanted, more than the truth, reassurance her beloved family didn't do something bad so that she could fight off whoever was saying the contrary.

Eva though denied her reassurance. Had she given her a conforting lie maybe Ange would have swallowed it. But Eva at first doesn't lie and do it only later saying she didn't remember. Her words, according to Ange's interpretation became an obvious lie (I don't know, here I would have assumed she 'couldn't tell because she didn't remember' but maybe in Japanese this interpretation doesn't work?) and why Eva might be lying? To cover up for Ange's family or to cover up for herself. And to Ange it had to be she's trying to cover up for herself because the other option is way worse.

She attacks Eva and in that she vents her frustration and pain at feeling herself and hre family being attacked.

Eva tries to but in the end she answered to 'Ange's fire' making easier for Ange to hate her.

So Ange spends years hating Eva because it's convenient and seems logic and now she likely doesn't feel like thinking 'what if I was wrong and I've blamed her for something she didn't do and that hurt deeply her as well?' because this would add guilt to all the unpleasant feelings inside her.

It's implied she planned to kill herself at the end of her journey for the truth so she's likely feeling bad enough. She doesn't want to feel worse so 'Eva has to be the culprit and she has to get revenge on her somehow'
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Old 2013-08-31, 01:29   Link #32994
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Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
Her words, according to Ange's interpretation became an obvious lie (I don't know, here I would have assumed she 'couldn't tell because she didn't remember' but maybe in Japanese this interpretation doesn't work?)
The first time Ange asked Eva about it, Eva responded with "I can't tell anything". Every time after that, when asked Eva would always say "I don't remember".

And Ange took this the worst possible way.
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Old 2013-08-31, 11:43   Link #32995
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Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
The first time Ange asked Eva about it, Eva responded with "I can't tell anything". Every time after that, when asked Eva would always say "I don't remember".

And Ange took this the worst possible way.
Well, again she could have meant that she can't tell anything because she doesn't remember.

And honestly, I really think she would have done better giving Ange some sort of explanation because I think it's naive to think Ange's going to swallow amnesia, unless one's very good at persuading her that the trauma of her loss caused her retroactive amnesia. Which she is not.
She would have done better saying something like: when you're older I'll tell you, for now take my words nor me or your parents would have done on purpose something that we believed wouldn't have been beneficial to you.

Which wouldn't be a lie but at the same time wouldn't rule out that Eva will wait for Ange to have grey hair before telling her, or that Eva and Ange's parents wouldn't kill by accident, in self defence or because 'they think the loss of X would improve Ange's life'... or actually because they didn't think at all at the consequences of their gesture or thought that the gold would cheer her up so much she wouldn't realize some relatives were missing.
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Old 2013-08-31, 13:23   Link #32996
DokEnkephalin
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It may seem far-fetched that Jessica would know about Yasu's multiple personalities if Yasu were actually the culprit; as distant and conflicting as Jessica is with her parents it's still highly doubtful she would forgive their murder. But consider this:

Spoiler:


I read R07's interview with KEIYA, where he actually did say that Gaap was 'just' an embodiment. But this was after stating that because of Virgilia's creation, a connection to Kumasawa was created, as if that were a natural consequence. I can understand why an anthropomorphic personification of an intellectual abstract not native to the board wouldn't have a vessel (ie, Dlanor,) but that doesn't explain the glaring discrepancy in Gaap. It's not like the other fantasy personifications in Yasu's history, all of which had vessels, weren't also symbolic of an abstract. Flauros isn't a good counter-example because she was discarded half-sketched and never integrated into the board. So I have to believe R07 was covering a bit of information crucial to the solution; that Jessica was Gaap, played the role on occasion, and did know Shannon/Kanon/Beatrice's connection with each other.

Spoiler:

Last edited by DokEnkephalin; 2013-08-31 at 13:44. Reason: spoiler some stuff, add more spoilery stuff
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Old 2013-08-31, 13:50   Link #32997
haguruma
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
She would have done better saying something like: when you're older I'll tell you, for now take my words nor me or your parents would have done on purpose something that we believed wouldn't have been beneficial to you.
Concerning the way the additional EP8 manga stuff portrays the events and also Eva's reactions towards Ange I would presume that this was simply a human error on her part. She thought it'd be better to spare her anything, but she basically expected to much from a little girl, whose world view is still pretty black and white.
Eva says:
"I wanted to raise you as the noble daughter of the house Ushiromiya , just like I did with George, bearing the pain and sprinkling in love to protect you、which was my way of giving my best.
I believed, this was the atonement I was able to offer to all of them and to you as well.
But it didn't reach you, it couldn't since you were still too young.
In the end...when I couldn't bear the weight of the truth, the loneliness and the sadness anymore, I abandoned any attempt to mend my relationship with you.
"

And actually Ange says in the much more elaborate "A Reason to Live" chapter in the EP8 manga,
"Even in all their attempts, the police was unable to find any solid proof at the time of the incident.
By now 12 years have passed from that.
Anybody would be able to reveal a truth that a small girl is able to fish out of some people with her sole weapon being a batch of money.

I might not be able to reach the truth.
And if that happens, then my feeling of "wanting to reach the truth" will fade and vanish in the end.
The only thing remaining is my hatred for Eva.
"
Deep down she knows that she has lost sight of finding the truth and that the only thing left driving her is her conviction that Eva is guilty, but she still cannot stop since it is the only thing keeping her alive at all (in her eyes).

Quote:
Originally Posted by DokEnkephalin
she dressed in Kanon's clothes and, unable to get to Rosa, decided to draw her out and take revenge on Nanjo and Kumasawa at the same time, slitting their throats
They would never mistake a different person for Kanon.
Kanon's name can only be wielded by the owner of said name. No other person can carry this name.
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Old 2013-08-31, 14:09   Link #32998
DokEnkephalin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
They would never mistake a different person for Kanon.
Kanon's name can only be wielded by the owner of said name. No other person can carry this name.
No person would mistake Ushiromiya Kinzo by sight.
But they could lie, couldn't they? It's not a mistake if it's intentional.

Spoiler:


Both conditionals of the xor premise are satisfied in the conclusion. This is another theme of the story, and the way magic works within the gameboard, and the reason why every fantasy being must have a vessel. Is it fantasy or mystery? The complete mathematician's answer is "yes". There are propositional chains from both conditions that will lead to the same conclusion.

EDIT: Just realized the hole in that Blue.
Spoiler:

Last edited by DokEnkephalin; 2013-08-31 at 14:39.
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Old 2013-08-31, 18:31   Link #32999
jjblue1
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Quote:
Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
Concerning the way the additional EP8 manga stuff portrays the events and also Eva's reactions towards Ange I would presume that this was simply a human error on her part. She thought it'd be better to spare her anything, but she basically expected to much from a little girl, whose world view is still pretty black and white.
Eva says:
"I wanted to raise you as the noble daughter of the house Ushiromiya , just like I did with George, bearing the pain and sprinkling in love to protect you、which was my way of giving my best.
I believed, this was the atonement I was able to offer to all of them and to you as well.
But it didn't reach you, it couldn't since you were still too young.
In the end...when I couldn't bear the weight of the truth, the loneliness and the sadness anymore, I abandoned any attempt to mend my relationship with you.
"
Well, I fear she expected too much from everyone. Come on, even if Ange had been older, would she have accepted that Eva would keep silent after that slip, especially when Eva can be suspected but, at the same time, Ange's family as well?

Sure, maybe, had she been older she would have not fallen so much into desperation but really, would she have let it go?

Any adult would see that if Eva doesn't want to talk about it, it's either to protect herself or Ange from an unpleasant truth.

Of course one can choose to ignore the question and pretend nothing happened, Eva never lied and it was all an incident but, on the other side, doubt might end gnawing you from inside.
Was your aunt the killer and now she's being kind to you to atone or, even worse, to cover up what she did?
Or were your parents the ones who did such a horrible thing and everyone is right in blaming them?

Eva probably thought Ange would play along with her wishes as obediently as George did but she was really asking too much and not just because Ange was young but because the situation was too big.

Although I could accept at first she couldn't think of a way out it seems some time had passed by when their relation took a turn for the worse, a time in which Ange kept asking.
Ignoring the problem and hoping she would give up was naive.
Eva should have thought to something to tell Ange that would explain things to her in a reassuring way.

Eva, even a traumatized, pressured Eva, doesn't seem that naive.
The only 'excuse' I can think of was that even thinking at the incident was so painful for her to bear even if she realized ignoring the problem wouldn't make it disappear she simply couldn't come up with a solution.

Quote:
Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
And actually Ange says in the much more elaborate "A Reason to Live" chapter in the EP8 manga,
"Even in all their attempts, the police was unable to find any solid proof at the time of the incident.
By now 12 years have passed from that.

Anybody would be able to reveal a truth that a small girl is able to fish out of some people with her sole weapon being a batch of money.

I might not be able to reach the truth.
And if that happens, then my feeling of "wanting to reach the truth" will fade and vanish in the end.
The only thing remaining is my hatred for Eva.
"
Deep down she knows that she has lost sight of finding the truth and that the only thing left driving her is her conviction that Eva is guilty, but she still cannot stop since it is the only thing keeping her alive at all (in her eyes).
Yes, it's pretty clear Ange is at the end of her rope. Her hate for Eva alone can't support her anymore as she's dead. Even if she were to reveal Eva's sin she likely wouldn't feel satisfied as this wouldn't wash away her pain not resurrect her family.

Deep down she's probably hoping in a happy truth, like that someone survived and, for some reason, didn't go back to her but at the same time she knows she'll need a miracle for her hope to turn into truth. Ence Bern.

Last edited by Daniel E.; 2013-08-31 at 23:53.
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Old 2013-08-31, 22:05   Link #33000
Daniel E.
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Several posts have now been deleted and anyone that continues the same pointless argument will receive an infraction and/or a ban from the forum.
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