Mahouka Koukou no Rettousei LN - Archived Discussion

[Rasen]

Originally Posted by pampz21

Most of Siblings incest doesnt end well due to the limit you have; I only see good ones in Hentai(because it is hidden that they are doing it). Oreimo had the potential of breaking it; but it couldnt due to public opinion and now the ending suck~

1) It's not hidden at all that siblings do it in hentai. It's just age-restricted.

2) Unless Kyousuke is back with Kuroneko or Manami, I'm pretty sure Kirino and Kyousuke are together.

3) Basically, I see the most likely ending of MKnR is that Tatsuya and Miyuki continue living together, never actually doing IT, but not getting closer to anyone else either.

[anonfr]

Originally Posted by pampz21

....
Just because you cant see it, doesnt it mean it doesnt exist.
I can see it very clear even with her calculated comments and deception; sometimes even using Leo's relationship with her to hide it.(Those coincidence is scary.)
@Shadow
You didnt know? I'm pretty sure there are alot and once the anime start it will spread like a wild fire. Specially to english men and culture outside japan~
Well I pretty much doesnt, care I like her but there is something that I cant tolerate about her.~

I won't disagree with you anymore. I just can't agree with you either. I honestly don't see ErikaXTatsuya at all, None of your arguments have convinced me it's true, and you're the most compelling of the Erika missionaries! I'm a lost cause as far as conversion goes.

Originally Posted by Lazy cat

i am the only one who ships honokaxfumiya? if you look up close thei have a few things in common, both idolize tatsuya, and are mental interference magic users.

shizukuxayako too is a good ship since their personality complement each other (shizuku is cool and reserved while ayako is playfull and teasing.

by the way if tatsuya does end with someone i'm cheering for mayumi becouse SHE IS THE BEST no offense to the other girls but it's true, what else can i say

I didn't ship them, but I will now! honokaxfumiya 4ever. I can see it. Logic need not apply.

I also ship Mayumi. Though I ship her cause I like her, and I really enjoy her scenes with Tatsuya. I acknowledge her chances are a subject of debate.

Originally Posted by Rasen

1) It's not hidden at all that siblings do it in hentai. It's just age-restricted.

2) Unless Kyousuke is back with Kuroneko or Manami, I'm pretty sure Kirino and Kyousuke are together.

3) Basically, I see the most likely ending of MKnR is that Tatsuya and Miyuki continue living together, never actually doing IT, but not getting closer to anyone else either.

1. Yes
2. I think that's unconfirmed and your opinion might not have much weight with others.
3. I agree.

[Rasen]

Originally Posted by anonfr

1. Yes
2. I think that's unconfirmed and your opinion might not have much weight with others.
3. I agree.

To quote the epilogue of the final book of Oreimo:

Spoiler:

— Suddenly, I kissed her.[1]
"You…!"
Thud! Kirino pushed me away.
"What, what are you doing!? What about our agreement!"
To my flushed little sister, I smiled and said
"Since we are brother and sister, what is wrong with that?"
"How could it be —————!"
Kirino fiercely pointed her finger at me:

According to the author: on DA LIPS.

[Ultraviolet X]

Originally Posted by Lazy cat

by the way if tatsuya does end with someone i'm cheering for mayumi becouse SHE IS THE BEST no offense to the other girls but it's true, what else can i say

Same here, I really like her character and the way she interacts with Tatsuya, that being said its true the chances her ending up with Tatsuya are slim. Still, its more then the other characters at this point. It seems the most likely ending for Tatsuya is he ends up alone.

[anonfr]

Originally Posted by Ultraviolet X

Same here, I really like her character and the way she interacts with Tatsuya, that being said its true the chances her ending up with Tatsuya are slim. Still, its more then the other characters at this point. That being said, the most likely ending for Tatsuya is he ends up alone.

Yeah! Mayumi ship! and Yeah... Tatsuya alone ship which still seems the most likely to me.

Originally Posted by Rasen

To quote the epilogue of the final book:

Spoiler:

— Suddenly, I kissed her.[1]
"You…!"
Thud! Kirino pushed me away.
"What, what are you doing!? What about our agreement!"
To my flushed little sister, I smiled and said
"Since we are brother and sister, what is wrong with that?"
"How could it be —————!"
Kirino fiercely pointed her finger at me:

I know what happens, but it's open ended. Open ended is the opposite of conclusive.

I mean I agree with your interpretation of the context, I just think it's important to acknowledge that however well founded an informed opinion may be, it's still not a fact. No matter what's implied, we still don't 100% know. That's all I mean.

speaking of inconclusive do you remember that supposed 10 year later epilogue? did you read that? Was that conclusive? I honestly want to know. Please PM me if you know how that ended.

[pampz21]

Originally Posted by Rasen

1) It's not hidden at all that siblings do it in hentai. It's just age-restricted.

2) Unless Kyousuke is back with Kuroneko or Manami, I'm pretty sure Kirino and Kyousuke are together.

3) Basically, I see the most likely ending of MKnR is that Tatsuya and Miyuki continue living together, never actually doing IT, but not getting closer to anyone else either.

1.)No I mean in the stories; not in the public.
2.) I agree but the ending still sucks~
3.)Miyuki is already living that kind of life; but for Tatsuya he deserves more.

Originally Posted by anonfr

I won't disagree with you anymore. I just can't agree with you either. I honestly don't see ErikaXTatsuya at all, None of your arguments have convinced me it's true, and you're the most compelling of the Erika missionaries! I'm a lost cause as far as conversion goes.

The thing about ships you don't really need peoples opinion because you decided that this two can go all the way. There is really no point in looking for friends to ship with you. any case we are different people after all.

[fujin of shadows]

Originally Posted by pampz21

1.)No I mean in the stories; not in the public.
2.) I agree but the ending still sucks~
3.)Miyuki is already living that kind of life; but for Tatsuya he deserves more.


The thing about ships you don't really need peoples opinion because you decided that this two can go all the way. There is really no point in looking for friends to ship with you. any case we are different people after all.

You guys are aware that Miyuki is literally willing to offer herself to Tatsuya right?

[Lazy cat]

Originally Posted by Rasen

From a romantic perspective, it's a mess. Because they don't care about each other, they care about Tatsuya.

Imagine a relationship where the two people are cheating on each other, WITH THE SAME GUY.

kkkkk good point , however their admiration on Tats would only be the factor that get them to know each other better, make them aproach, and eventually fall in love.

[Rasen]

Originally Posted by anonfr

I know what happens, but it's open ended. Open ended is the opposite of conclusive.

I mean I agree with your interpretation of the context, I just think it's important to acknowledge that however well founded an informed opinion may be, it's still not a fact. No matter what's implied, we still don't 100% know. That's all I mean.

Basically, I saw it as: if he's in a relationship with someone else, he shouldn't be kissing his sister. And she would be asking about that person, not their agreement.

speaking of inconclusive do you remember that supposed 10 year later epilogue? did you read that? Was that conclusive? I honestly want to know. Please PM me if you know how that ended.

Unfortunately, I do not, so I cannot speak to it.

Originally Posted by pampz21

1.)No I mean in the stories; not in the public.
2.) I agree but the ending still sucks~
3.)Miyuki is already living that kind of life; but for Tatsuya he deserves more.

1.) You mean the siblings hide that they are having sex in the hentai? Not always. In fact, given the nature of hentai, exhibition play is often a part of it.

Let's not even go into the doujinshi.


3.) Only Tatsuya can say if he wants more though. Currently, he does not.

[Jirachier]

Originally Posted by fujin of shadows

I don't really understand why a character as good as Miyuki has haters but I will acknowledge that every character has haters regardless of how well written they are.

1. Miyuki is devoted to Tatsuya and want's to be of help to him. Also, Tatsuya is her guardian and the two was raise under the doctrine of the Yotsuba. They would follow protocol especially in front of the woman who can make their lives a living hell.

2. Miyuki is affectionate towards Tatsuya because she wants to make up for lost time. If you read volume 8, you see that they have only been acting as siblings after Okinawa. Okay, their affection is over the top, but it shows that they truly love each other.

3. Again, there is nothing in the novel that indicates that Tatsuya want's to be the head of the Yotsuba. Have you forgotten that because of his limited magic abilities, he is all but disowned. The Yotsuba has a certain criteria of what a magician is and Tatsuya does not fill the bill.

4. This is you personal feeling and again, I don't agree with you. In this novel, Incest is executed well, so well in fact that it is difficult to picture the shiba sibling with another character aside from eaach other.

5. The sealing part is a two way dance. Miyuki is using half of her power to seal Tatsuya. Also, if Tatsuya is allowed to walk around with his full power, don't you think that it would attract unwanted attention.

6. If a woman is not selfish to the one she loves, then she does not love that person at all. Lovers should be selfish when it comes to each other, that shows their devotion and love for each other. Also, dude, Miyuki does not stop Tatsuya from speaking with other girls...

Dude, you can go on and on how much you hate Miyuki, but believe me, I can go on and on how much I love Miyuki and how much I want her and Tatsuya to end up with each other...

1. Does she have to appear in every single scene with Tatsuya ? You can't use protocal as an excuse she just intrudes on every scene we get to see Tatsuya in(well most of the time at least). and we all know the reason she does so has nothing to do with protocol.

2. There is a different between showing sibling affection and being lovey dovey, I don't mind the first, i hate the later.

3. It's not about whether he wants to be the next head or not, it's about her in being in his rightful position.

4. There is NO good way to execute incest. I can imagine Tatsuya being with others, you have to understand, he does not see her as a lover he only see her as a sister she's the one who's taking this too far.

5. Tatsuya has absolutely no trouble being at full power, he's lived as such for 13 years and as a child, the seal must've been ordered by Maya because she doesn't like the idea of him being so strong plain and simple, and thanks to Miyuki existing she was able to restrict him. How can I not hate her for that ?

6. That's the thing, it's none of her business, she has absolutely no right to be selfish with Tatsuya, he is her brother not her lover. She doesn't stop him from speaking to other girls but every time someone shows interest in him she starts freezing things around her or get angry at him, it's his love life and it's none of her damn business.

Again they are not lovers.

[Lazy cat]

Originally Posted by pampz21

1.)No I mean in the stories; not in the public.
2.) I agree but the ending still sucks~
3.)Miyuki is already living that kind of life; but for Tatsuya he deserves more.

2.) was the end of the novel like the end of the anime? if it is then it really sucks, i regretted every minute of my life that i wasted watching Oreimo until the end. not that i disliked the whole, but the end screwed everything i have liked.

[Rasen]

Originally Posted by Jirachier

4. There is NO good way to execute incest. I can imagine Tatsuya being with others, you have to understand, he does not see her as a lover he only see her as a sister she's the one who's taking this too far.

See, I CAN'T imagine Tatsuya with others, because of his gimped emotions. As much as I would like otherwise, his emotions for Miyuki trump his emotions for.... ANYTHING else. I can hope, but everytime, that monolith of unfeeling just pops up and it all comes across as unlikely.

Second, Tatsuya's statement that he only sees her as a sister is suspicious. Not because I think he's lying, but because I think he doesn't know any better. He has no other emotions for people to compare against.

For starters, he's physically attracted to her. (Read any of the times Tatsuya looks at Miyuki when she gets all flirty) If you can tell me of a real brother-sister pair that are physically attracted to each other, I'd be very surprised.

This is not to say that they are NOT real brother and sister (they're at least cousins). But rather that their childhood upbringing deprived the two of many of the experiences that make it so that family members aren't attracted to each other.

6. That's the thing, it's none of her business, she has absolutely no right to be selfish with Tatsuya, he is her brother not her lover. She doesn't stop him from speaking to other girls but every time someone shows interest in him she starts freezing things around her or get angry at him, it's his love life and it's none of her damn business.

Again they are not lovers.

Would it be her business if she weren't related to him? Because I suspect that's where you draw the line. If she were unrelated and romantically interested in him, would it be her business if he talks to other girls?

[Jirachier]

Originally Posted by Rasen

See, I CAN'T imagine Tatsuya with others, because of his gimped emotions. As much as I would like otherwise, his emotions for Miyuki trump his emotions for.... ANYTHING else. I can hope, but everytime, that monolith of unfeeling just pops up and it all comes across as unlikely.

Second, Tatsuya's statement that he only sees her as a sister is suspicious. Not because I think he's lying, but because I think he doesn't know any better. He has no other emotions for people to compare against.

For starters, he's physically attracted to her. (Read any of the times Tatsuya looks at Miyuki when she gets all flirty) If you can tell me of a real brother-sister pair that are physically attracted to each other, I'd be very surprised.

This is not to say that they are NOT real brother and sister (they're at least cousins). But rather that their childhood upbringing deprived the two of many of the experiences that make it so that family members aren't attracted to each other.

The reality is, it's only because he accidentally kept his sisterly love emotion that he feels this way for her. If he were to regain all of his emotions at one point he'd probably just forget about her and start his plan to destroy the Yotsuba.

Originally Posted by Rasen

Would it be her business if she weren't related to him? Because I suspect that's where you draw the line. If she were unrelated and romantically interested in him, would it be her business if he talks to other girls?

It's not just because she's related to him, it's more important that regardless of that he did not tell her that she's his girlfriend or anything of the sort, so she has no right to be jealous, he's not in a romantic relationship with her, it's his business what he does.

[Rasen]

Originally Posted by Jirachier

The reality is, it's only because he accidentally kept his sisterly love emotion that he feels this way for her. If he were to regain all of his emotions at one point he'd probably just forget about her and start his plan to destroy the Yotsuba.

He didn't "accidentally" keep anything. That was how his Mother and Aunt guaranteed his loyalty to the Yotsuba, by making Miyuki the most important person in his life.

To say that his emotions are "brotherly," I suspect is more the result of indoctrination. "She is your sister, you love her more than anything else, you will do anything for her. Oh, and don't bone her. Because she is your sister."

If Tatsuya WERE to regain his emotions, you might be correct. It depends on whether his emotions for Miyuki were ALSO similarly dampened like the rest of his emotions.

In other words, depending, you might be right OR he might go full on sis-con.

It's not just because she's related to him, it's more important that regardless of that he did not tell her that she's his girlfriend or anything of the sort, so she has no right to be jealous, he's not in a romantic relationship with her, it's his business what he does.

That's fair and rational. That being said, people who are in love are less than fair or rational (I believe "crazy in love" is the phrase), and I suspect there's many a love-sick person who disagrees with you.

[Ultraviolet X]

Okay, im going to cut in here, mainly because I agree with the points Jirachier just raised.

Originally Posted by Rasen

He didn't "accidentally" keep anything. That was how his Mother and Aunt guaranteed his loyalty to the Yotsuba, by making Miyuki the most important person in his life.

To say that his emotions are "sisterly," I suspect is more the result of indoctrination. "She is your sister, you love her more than anything else, you will do anything for her. Oh, and don't bone her. Because she is your sister."

Based of what we know, Tatsuya feeling only sibling love towards Miyuki was an accident.

"The Artificial Magician Plan. A project to implant in the consciousness of a person who isn’t a magician, a man-made magic operation area and thus give him the abilities of a magician."

Artificial Magician Plan. Those words rang ominously in my ears.

"As a result of undergoing that mental reconstruction surgery, that child ended up losing his emotions."

Mental reconstruction surgery? Lost his emotions?"

"No, rather than saying emotions it may be better to say urges. Strong anger, deep sorrow, intense jealousy, grudges, hatred, hungering appetite, sexual lust, blind love. Such ‘beside oneself’ impulses were lost, with one single exception, and in exchange Tatsuya obtained the ability to use magic."

"The one exception that Tatsuya didn’t lose…… Answer me that."

"The one impulse left to him, is brotherly love."

—Please stop already, Okaa-sama.

"Love towards his sister, in other words you, and the desire to protect you."

—I don’t want to hear any more.

"That is all he has left, his one true emotion."

But that was not allowed to me.

Holding my two hands in front of my mouth was an instinctive action.

It may have been a conditioned reflex.

There wasn’t really a need for it though.

I was so shocked, to the extent I couldn’t let out a cry.

"Tatsuya himself knows well. That’s what he means by ‘can feel is precious’. He thinks of me simply as his ‘mother’, and the natural parent-child attachment which should go with it does not exist. The only one he can hold dear in his heart is only you, Miyuki. Back then, he simply saved me incidentally. Or perhaps, merely because he determined if I were to die then you would be sad."

"Did Okaa-sama……intentionally choose for this to happen?"

Even though I was speaking myself, it felt like I heard someone else talking. It felt like a me which was not me was moving my body and asking questions.

"I obviously didn’t plan things out to that extent. However, I did think that if the capacity that was left was only enough for one emotion, then it should be affection directed towards you. Tatsuya will be spending far more time with you, after all."

Originally Posted by Rasen

That's fair and rational. That being said, people who are in love are less than fair or rational, and I suspect there's many a love-sick person who disagrees with you.

Jirachier did raise a valid point. Personally, I always found it funny the way she overreacted whenever he interacted with any females, but it still not any of her buisness. There not dating, and there brother and sister. Understandable though it is the way she reacts (given that shes in love with him), its still none of her buisness and she has no right to react the way that she does.

[fujin of shadows]

Originally Posted by Jirachier

1. Does she have to appear in every single scene with Tatsuya ? You can't use protocal as an excuse she just intrudes on every scene we get to see Tatsuya in(well most of the time at least). and we all know the reason she does so has nothing to do with protocol.

2. There is a different between showing sibling affection and being lovey dovey, I don't mind the first, i hate the later.

3. It's not about whether he wants to be the next head or not, it's about her in being in his rightful position.

4. There is NO good way to execute incest. I can imagine Tatsuya being with others, you have to understand, he does not see her as a lover he only see her as a sister she's the one who's taking this too far.

5. Tatsuya has absolutely no trouble being at full power, he's lived as such for 13 years and as a child, the seal must've been ordered by Maya because she doesn't like the idea of him being so strong plain and simple, and thanks to Miyuki existing she was able to restrict him. How can I not hate her for that ?

6. That's the thing, it's none of her business, she has absolutely no right to be selfish with Tatsuya, he is her brother not her lover. She doesn't stop him from speaking to other girls but every time someone shows interest in him she starts freezing things around her or get angry at him, it's his love life and it's none of her damn business.

Again they are not lovers.

1. For one thing, Tatsuya is her guardian and they are required to be near each other. Another thing, Miyuku and Tatsuya can act independently from each other. Please see Mahouka Koukou no Yuutousei. Also, Tatsuya prefers Miyuki to be close by and the feeling is mutual.

2. Showing affection is different from the perspective of other. Yes, the affection that the shiba siblings for each other is transcendent from normal siblings. Tatsuya spoils Miyuki and Miyuki is willing to serve Tatsuya with all of her being.

3. Fumiya is the younger sibling in the Kuraba family yet he was chosen as a candidate, ignoring Ayako all together. I think that the choosing of the heir of Yotsuba is base upon magic abilities. You need to admit that when it comes to raw and natural magic abilities, Tatsuya is at the bottom (He makes up for it with fighting abilties and magic talent.)

4. I don't have beef with incest theme stories, in fact, I enjoy most of them. The chemistry between Tatsuya and Miyuki is perfect and there relationship is portrayed perfectly.

5. The power that Tatsuya has when he was 13 is different from his current power now. Tatsuya does not want any attention directed at him and being at full power would attract more attention than he would like. Also, it is not Miyuki's fault that she became Tatsuya's limtied. It was for convenient and like I said, the Miyuki is also limited with half her power.

6. Again, is it wrong to be selfish when it comes to the one you love?

Can I ask you something? Are you use to reading materials that defines good and evil like black and white, to such extent that you are ignoring the shades of gray that Mahouka is portraying, especially with regards to the relationship of the Shiba siblings.

Incest is wrong, the law makes clear of that.

But half of the laws of the world is stupid.

I mean, in real life as well as fiction, why do people view something as wrong even if two individuals are content with each other, same blood and all.

Incest is wrong but if the two parties are happy together, are we really going to condemn them?

[Rasen]

Originally Posted by Ultraviolet X

Okay, im going to cut in here, mainly because I agree with Jirachier points.

Based of what we know, Tatsuya feeling only sibling love towards Miyuki was an accident.

Huh.

Thanks, I did not remember that quote.

If we can assume that their mother wasn't lying to her, then I think it favors the "Tatsuya goes full-on sis-con" situation.

To restate, Tatsuya IS attracted to Miyuki. That ain't brotherly.

Rather than say that Tatsuya "accidentally" kept his affection for Miyuki, it could be said that he was a full-on sis-con to begin with. And that when his emotions were all gimped, his sis-con nature was also gimped to more socially acceptable levels.

Still not that socially acceptable though. "You are my cute princess" "She is the most beautiful girl in the world," etc.

Jirachier did raise a valid point. Personally, I always found it funny the way she overreacted whenever he interacted with any females, but it still not any of her buisness. There not dating, and there brother and sister. Understandable though it is the way she reacts (given that shes in love with him), its still none of her buisness and she has no right to react the way that she does.

I hope you have the same reaction when Mayumi gets jealous, like when she jealous that Rin has similar goals, or when she feeds him the most bitter chocolate in the world...

[Ultraviolet X]

Originally Posted by Rasen

If we can assume that their mother wasn't lying to her, then I think it favors the "Tatsuya goes full-on sis-con" situation.

To restate, Tatsuya IS attracted to Miyuki. That ain't brotherly.

Rather than say that Tatsuya "accidentally" kept his affection for Miyuki, it could be said that he was a full-on sis-con to begin with. And that when his emotions were all gimped, his sis-con nature was also gimped to more socially acceptable levels.

Still not that socially acceptable though. "You are my cute princess" "She is the most beautiful girl in the world," etc.

It seems to me its more that hes noting she is beautiful, rather then actually being attracted to her. Well, doesn't matter, his thoughts have clearly not stepped past the sibling line, he's only more protective of her and acts more affectionate towards her since she is the only one he can love.

Originally Posted by Rasen

I hope you have the same reaction when Mayumi gets jealous, like when she jealous that Rin has similar goals, or when she feeds him the most bitter chocolate in the world...

My definition does not change, its stays the same. No matter who it is, if your not dating the person you really have no right to react badly whenever somone else takes an interest with him/her, even if the reasons are understandable. It just makes it worse in Miyuki's case given that there siblings.

[Rasen]

Originally Posted by Ultraviolet X

It seems to me its more that hes noting she is beautiful, rather then actually being attracted to her. Well, doesn't matter, his thoughts have clearly not stepped past the sibling line, he's only more protective of her and acts more affectionate towards her since she is the only one he can love.

No, seriously. He's attracted. The most recent case I can think of is in volume 12.

Compared with that, Miyuki wore a mini-gown which daringly revealed the thighs even though it was still early spring. The apron was also the type with thin straps – how many aprons did she have squirreled away – and left the curves from the chest to the collarbone on full display. Naturally, everything below the edge of the apron that was 10 cm above the knees was also uncovered. Through the surface of the transparent glass table, the depths of her thighs could be seen along her knees that were side by side.

Was this little sister of his tempting – teasing him?

Stop, he lost if he started paying heed.

Thankfully, once he made up his mind, he was truly able to put it from his mind. In this regard, he should express thanks to his mother and aunt, Tatsuya thought. –Though perhaps Miyuki bore the opposite opinion.

Tatsuya finds himself staring at the "zettai ryouiki," and being all attracted. Then GIVES THANKS to his aunt and mother for gimping his emotions so much that he can force his mind off it.

By all means, tell me of the pure brotherly love that lets someone stare at their sister's "absolute territory."

[Ultraviolet X]

Originally Posted by Rasen

No, seriously. He's attracted. The most recent case I can think of is in volume 12.

Tatsuya finds himself staring at the "zettai ryouiki," and being all attracted. Then GIVES THANKS to his aunt and mother for gimping his emotions so much that he can force his mind off it.

I still think Tatsuya doesn't see Miyuki past the sibling stage. I will admit though that I am biased against any sibling attraction, even if its fiction. Incest turns my mind. So even if I argue against this (and I can), my arguments won't be credible.