Schniezel's viewpoints on war and how to obtain peace

[Orga777]

Originally Posted by demon_god04

The very fact is that Lelouch molded them from terrorists and whatever else that had different ideologies and methods into a single cohesive fighting force that threatened one of the world powers. Zero is not about the identity but about what he can accomplish. The very fact that despite the Black Knights coming from different backgrounds, ideals and did not completely trust him because he hid his identity was still able to work together effectively under his command spoke volumes about Lelouch's charisma.

Oh I said I know that. I didn't say he waasn't charismatic (because he was) but he doesn't match up to Schneizel that got Lelouch's "trusted" men and organization on his side all without hiding (and he came to THEM for the negotiations, face to face, in enemy territory), and didn't have any magic persuasion powers to make events happen that made him look better. His charm was on another level.

Season one, Charles was given word how Schneizel was planning something and Charles did his crazy laugh and said to let Schneizel challenge him if he thinks he can.

Pfft. We never figured out what Schneizel was planning did we? I think it was closer that Schneizel, being the politician he is, was not really doing anything in the realm of a coup attempt, but Charles THOUGHT he was. Afterall, when did Charles ever understand his children? He totally miscalculated what Lelouch would do when they confronted in The World of C during Ragnarok. And I have a feeling he never got Schneizel (or any of them) fully understood either. He was, after all, mostly detatched from his family after Marianne "died."

Also, it probably had more to do with Schneizel funding the Code-R research .(though now we know that he didn't exactely know all the details since he knew nothing about Geass) and the Gawain project since, that point you just brought up occured in the same episode as Schneizel having the Gawain fire down at Lelouch and Suzaku.

[demon_god04]

Originally Posted by Orga777

Oh I said I know that. I didn't say he waasn't charismatic (because he was) but he doesn't match up to Schneizel that got Lelouch's "trusted" men and organization on his side all without hiding (and he came to THEM for the negotiations, face to face, in enemy territory), and didn't have any magic persuasion powers to make events happen that made him look better. His charm was on another level.



Pfft. We never figured out what Schneizel was planning did we? I think it was closer that Schneizel, being the politician he is, was not really doing anything in the realm of a coup attempt, but Charles THOUGHT he was. Afterall, when did Charles ever understand his children? He totally miscalculated what Lelouch would do when they confronted in The World of C during Ragnarok. And I have a feeling he never got Schneizel (or any of them) fully understood either. He was, after all, mostly detatched from his family after Marianne "died."

Also, it probably had more to do with Schneizel funding the Code-R research .(though now we know that he didn't exactely know all the details since he knew nothing about Geass) and the Gawain project since, that point you just brought up occured in the same episode as Schneizel having the Gawain fire down at Lelouch and Suzaku.

Well the thing is, Schneizel's men were the Britannian armed forces. He never really had to win their loyalty or anything as it is a given since he is the second prince and they already had a favourable opinion of him from the get go. Lelouch had to work himself up from basically a masked nobody that showed up out of nowhere.

And the negotiation thing was not really much of a choice given the fleiya chard that Schneizel was holding. The reason he was not afraid of the black knights was that they were told that Mordred was also carrying one of those nukes. I guess having a weapon of mass destruction was a charm in and of itself.

Well I think we have reached the point of only going by conjectures with that considering. The only thing we really know for sure was that Charles deemed that Schneizel was planning something that was directed at him. Although the whole Code R stuff was basically Clovis using C.C to research immortality wasn't it? Schneizel may be the one writing the checks but it was mainly Clovis and Bartley that were involved.

[Orga777]

Originally Posted by morbosfist

How Lelouch won over the Black Knights is charisma, half of it not even Geass-related. It's charisma when you can tell your subordinates to shoot you if they think they can do a better job, and they shut up and obey. What you mention at the top doesn't detract from his charisma, the Geass because he does it secretly and the mask is actually part of it.

I already covered this in my previous post to demon_god...

He already had everyone on his side. Prince and Prime Minister, remember? These people obey without question. Second, Schneizel didn't ask for help. He left to deal with it and Kaguya insisted on joining because Zero was surely there.

Ah, yes, you are correct there. Forgot about that detail. Still though, they were still working together.

Maybe, more than likely in fact, but they would not have been so irrational, and certainly not so accommodating, without Ohgi waving the banner.

Well, I agree on that. Ougi just broke the flood gates open and finished the job for Schneizel.

Still circumstantial, and in some cases outright wrong. It's even worded as such in the few entries that the viewer can read. They tossed a bunch of speculation in front of their faces for shock value. Anyone reading it would have dismissed it.

Well, that may be true, but I guess it kinda sucked that Lelouch didn't deny it when they DID confront him. XD

Lelouch knew more about their father than he did. Probably wanted him for that.

That may be true, but I think it was a little more than that. Schneizel seemed to be the one that taught Lelouch everything he knows after all. And he did want to protect Lelouch somewhat from punishment when he first captured him after tailing Suzaku.

Okay, but he didn't care because it was his victory. He won dead or alive because Lelouch would be dead.

Actually that would be mroe of a tie since Schneizel wouldn't exactely get what he wanted. Although he still though that if both him and Lelouch were killed, Damocles with the FLEIA's all destroyed, peace could reign. He said that right before Lelouch Geassed him.

He fired at the Avalon when Lelouch left it and would have vaped them all if not for the anti-FLEIJA being used. Not to mention the time limit is the reload time for the nuke.

Wrong. He didn't fire at the Avalon there. He fired directly at Lelouch and Suzaku. The Avalon was already going down at that point and may not have been touched.

They make mention of it offhand when Charles is in the Thought Elevator at one point. And yeah, I remember that magazine description. There's still some desire there, though, enough to exploit Nina's bomb (because she sure as hell didn't think up the flying nuke gun fortress).

Covered the Charles part.
As for the FLEIA exploitation, again, he felt he HAD too. Doesn't mean he wanted too. Remember, this is what he thought people WANTED (he said as much to Lelouch's Recording) and he thought that this was the only way it would get peace at this point. Lelouch of course tricked him at the end and Schneizel didn't see it coming. He was also too blind to the future and was more caught up in the horrors of what was happening in the present to find any real hope.

[Orga777]

Originally Posted by demon_god04

Well the thing is, Schneizel's men were the Britannian armed forces. He never really had to win their loyalty or anything as it is a given since he is the second prince and they already had a favourable opinion of him from the get go. Lelouch had to work himself up from basically a masked nobody that showed up out of nowhere.

I agree. I didn't say Lelouch wasn't charaismatic. XD Just not as charismatic as Schneizel. But if you want, I will count them equal. (since no one else in the series is even close to those two in that area.)

And the negotiation thing was not really much of a choice given the fleiya chard that Schneizel was holding. The reason he was not afraid of the black knights was that they were told that Mordred was also carrying one of those nukes. I guess having a weapon of mass destruction was a charm in and of itself.

You know, looking back at that, I have to wonder if that wasn't all a ruse. XD

Well I think we have reached the point of only going by conjectures with that considering. The only thing we really know for sure was that Charles deemed that Schneizel was planning something that was directed at him. Although the whole Code R stuff was basically Clovis using C.C to research immortality wasn't it? Schneizel may be the one writing the checks but it was mainly Clovis and Bartley that were involved.

I know that. But did Charles know that? Which was what I was getting at as well.

[morbosfist]

Originally Posted by Orga777

Oh I said I know that. I didn't say he waasn't charismatic (because he was) but he doesn't match up to Schneizel that got Lelouch's "trusted" men and organization on his side all without hiding (and he came to THEM for the negotiations, face to face, in enemy territory), and didn't have any magic persuasion powers to make events happen that made him look better. His charm was on another level.

Coming to them to negotiate takes balls, but that's not charisma. Certainly helps the image, though. Also, winning faith is a lot harder than shattering it. Schenizel never earns their trust, he only destroys their trust in others (and, as I'm fond of pointing out, Ohgi helped).

Originally Posted by Orga777

Pfft. We never figured out what Schneizel was planning did we? I think it was closer that Schneizel, being the politician he is, was not really doing anything in the realm of a coup attempt, but Charles THOUGHT he was. Afterall, when did Charles ever understand his children? He totally miscalculated what Lelouch would do when they confronted in The World of C during Ragnarok. And I have a feeling he never got Schneizel (or any of them) fully understood either. He was, after all, mostly detatched from his family after Marianne "died."

He understood Lelouch well enough to pretty much know the SAZ would fail before it ever got started. Granted, he didn't expect the exact result, but he had considered the possibility. Same with Schneizel, and his last words prove it. He knew what Schneizel was planning, and knew for a long time it would seem.

Originally Posted by Orga777

Also, it probably had more to do with Schneizel funding the Code-R research (though now we know that he didn't exactely know all the details since he knew nothing about Geass) and the Gawain project since, that point you just brought up occured in the same episode as Schneizel having the Gawain fire down at Lelouch and Suzaku.

He took over Code R after Clovis died. Sure, he funded military research projects, but, as I point out above, this is separate from what Charles knew he was plotting.

[demon_god04]

Originally Posted by Orga777

I agree. I didn't say Lelouch wasn't charaismatic. XD Just not as charismatic as Schneizel. But if you want, I will count them equal. (since no one else in the series is even close to those two in that area.)



You know, looking back at that, I have to wonder if that wasn't all a ruse. XD



I know that. But did Charles know that? Which was what I was getting at as well.

I personally go with that Lelouch was shown to be more charismatic because the circumstances he was thrust into called for him to use his charisma more extensively then Schneizel had to. On paper, they may or may not be equal, but within the show I say Lelouch edges him out.

It very likely was a ruse but the Black Knights did not know that, and given how they were willing to detonate something like that in their own settlement, noone wanted to take a chance he was not bluffing. But fact of the matter was that Schneizel was hiding behind the FLEIA button for the negotiations.

Morbo already answer that part with Charles, but my own two cents is that the way Charles was insinuating that Schneizel intended to Challenge him says to me that Schneizel was planning something along those lines since that is what the show tells us.

[Orga777]

Originally Posted by morbosfist

Coming to them to negotiate takes balls, but that's not charisma. Certainly helps the image, though. Also, winning faith is a lot harder than shattering it. Schenizel never earns their trust, he only destroys their trust in others (and, as I'm fond of pointing out, Ohgi helped).

Meh. I guess we can agree to disagree here than because it is about to go in circles. XD

He understood Lelouch well enough to pretty much know the SAZ would fail before it ever got started. Granted, he didn't expect the exact result, but he had considered the possibility. Same with Schneizel, and his last words prove it. He knew what Schneizel was planning, and knew for a long time it would seem.

Who? Charles? I don't really agree. He just thought Schneizel's views were just as wrong Schneizel though Charles' views were to him. I don't think it was as you say that he knew well before hand what Charles was doing.

He took over Code R after Clovis died. Sure, he funded military research projects, but, as I point out above, this is separate from what Charles knew he was plotting.

And we know that how? Remember, Damocles and FLEIA wasn't even THOUGHT of at the time by Schneizel, so it definitely wasn't that. So I can't say I agree.

[morbosfist]

Originally Posted by Orga777

Ah, yes, you are correct there. Forgot about that detail. Still though, they were still working together.

But it's not charisma that causes it, it's the Black Knights' lie getting shot to hell in less than a day and Kaguya wanting some answer.

Originally Posted by Orga777

Well, I agree on that. Ougi just broke the flood gates open and finished the job for Schneizel.

Well, that may be true, but I guess it kinda sucked that Lelouch didn't deny it when they DID confront him. XD

They didn't even confront him in the conventional sense. They (read "Ohgi") judged him as guilty automatically. The only reason he even got a chance to speak is because of Kallen.

Originally Posted by Orga777

That may be true, but I think it was a little more than that. Schneizel seemed to be the one that taught Lelouch everything he knows after all. And he did want to protect Lelouch somewhat from punishment when he first captured him after tailing Suzaku.

Well, if he's punished he can't be much help.

Originally Posted by Orga777

Actually that would be mroe of a tie since Schneizel wouldn't exactely get what he wanted. Although he still though that if both him and Lelouch were killed, Damocles with the FLEIA's all destroyed, peace could reign. He said that right before Lelouch Geassed him.

Which was his plan, hence his victory. Sure he's dead and it doesn't play out like he wanted, but it seems like Lelouch loses.

Originally Posted by Orga777

Wrong. He didn't fire at the Avalon there. He fired directly at Lelouch and Suzaku. The Avalon was already going down at that point and may not have been touched.

Watch the scene again. Remember, these bombs have no limiters and take out 100km radius areas. The Avalon was surely within that area when the bomb was being neutralized. He would surely have hit it.

Originally Posted by Orga777

As for the FLEIA exploitation, again, he felt he HAD too. Doesn't mean he wanted too. Remember, this is what he thought people WANTED (he said as much to Lelouch's Recording) and he thought that this was the only way it would get peace at this point. Lelouch of course tricked him at the end and Schneizel didn't see it coming. He was also too blind to the future and was more caught up in the horrors of what was happening in the present to find any real hope.

He thought people wanted peace. He decided the best way to go about it was nuke spam, the idea for which he gained by spotting Nina. Somewhere in that head of his the following occurred: "Hmm, this schoolgirl is developing aweapon of mass destruction? Jackpot!" The last bit I agree with.

[demon_god04]

Schneizel also remarked how it was a good opportunity to get rid of the Black Knights before rebuking himself for being too greedy.

[morbosfist]

Originally Posted by Orga777

Who? Charles? I don't really agree. He just thought Schneizel's views were just as wrong Schneizel though Charles' views were to him. I don't think it was as you say that he knew well before hand what Charles was doing.

And we know that how? Remember, Damocles and FLEIA wasn't even THOUGHT of at the time by Schneizel, so it definitely wasn't that. So I can't say I agree.

Let me clarify. Charles understood that Lelouch was going to fuck up the SAZ, and had even guessed the massacre was going to happen, hence his crazy laugh and line to that effect. With Schneizel, Charles' last words are that Lelouch is inviting Schneizel's world by denying him. He knew what Schenizel was up to, and seeing as how he hadn't even fully gotten it off the ground yet, he had to have deduced what his son was planning well before that point.

[Orga777]

Originally Posted by demon_god04

It very likely was a ruse but the Black Knights did not know that, and given how they were willing to detonate something like that in their own settlement, noone wanted to take a chance he was not bluffing. But fact of the matter was that Schneizel was hiding behind the FLEIA button for the negotiations.

Pfft. Like he could fully trust the BKs otherwise. XD
But he also didn't threaten them with FLEIA if they didn't agree to his terms. He treated them with respect when meeting with them and didn't appear to look down on them as inferior. The FLEIA thing was mostly for protection if they tried something violent against him IMO. Because having the Second Pricnce and the Prime Minister of Britannia as a hostage is a HUGE bargaining chip.

Morbo already answer that part with Charles, but my own two cents is that the way Charles was insinuating that Schneizel intended to Challenge him says to me that Schneizel was planning something along those lines since that is what the show tells us.

Meh, I can see where you are coming from here, but I can't say I ever got the same vibe from him. Especially since at that point in time, we don't know anything about Schneizel's plans and they OBVIOUSLY changed in R2. Hints are great and all, but I see it more as Schneizel working behind the Emperor's back. Remember, Code-R was a completely seceret that was behing done behind the Emperor's abck. It can easily be assumed that the Emperor could see that as Schneizel trying to work against him. Add in the fact that Schneizel was working on the Cyborg Jeremiah and the Seigfried in the Code-R project team as well, that could also be something.

Originally Posted by morbosfist

Let me clarify. Charles understood that Lelouch was going to fuck up the SAZ, and had even guessed the massacre was going to happen, hence his crazy laugh and line to that effect. With Schneizel, Charles' last words are that Lelouch is inviting Schneizel's world by denying him. He knew what Schenizel was up to, and seeing as how he hadn't even fully gotten it off the ground yet, he had to have deduced what his son was planning well before that point.

Or he could have meant Schneizel's VIEWS on the world. At least, that is how I took it. Though you could very well be right and I wouldn;t find it hard to believe that he knew of Damocles. But he never understood why. He seemed to see it as Schneizel trying to take over power for himself when we know that is not the case (because Lelouch knew that and Schneizel pretty much confirmed it for himself.)

[morbosfist]

Originally Posted by Orga777

Pfft. Like he could fully trust the BKs otherwise. XD
But he also didn't threaten them with FLEIA if they didn't agree to his terms. He treated them with respect when meeting with them and didn't appear to look down on them as inferior. The FLEIA thing was mostly for protection if they tried something violent against him IMO. Because having the Second Pricnce and the Prime Minister of Britannia as a hostage is a HUGE bargaining chip.

It doesn't have to be said. Just having FLEIJA is pretty much an "obey me or you die" statement. Cornelia even spells it out during the meeting: they were in no position to negotiate. Schneizel was very generous to give them back Japan, when he could have told them to go to hell and demanded his brother be turned over. They would have done it, too, because he came ready to die by FLEIJA if it came to that.

Originally Posted by Orga777

Meh, I can see where you are coming from here, but I can't say I ever got the same vibe from him. Especially since at that point in time, we don't know anything about Schneizel's plans and they OBVIOUSLY changed in R2. Hints are great and all, but I see it more as Schneizel working behind the Emperor's back. Remember, Code-R was a completely seceret that was behing done behind the Emperor's abck. It can easily be assumed that the Emperor could see that as Schneizel trying to work against him. Add in the fact that Schneizel was working on the Cyborg Jeremiah and the Seigfried in the Code-R project team as well, that could also be something.

Fair enough on the latter part of that. Certainly a big secret. But by the same token, it was obviously being prepared as a new combat advantage, so it probably wasn't so secret that the Emperor didn't know.

Originally Posted by Orga777

Or he could have meant Schneizel's VIEWS on the world. At least, that is how I took it. Though you could very well be right and I wouldn;t find it hard to believe that he knew of Damocles. But he never understood why. He seemed to see it as Schneizel trying to take over power for himself when we know that is not the case (because Lelouch knew that and Schneizel pretty much confirmed it for himself.)

That wouldn't make sense. If it were just his views then he'd still have to enforce them, so you come back to knowing the plan. Also, Schenizel was taking that power for himself. He is the enforcer, nuking all those who don't fall into line.

[Orga777]

Originally Posted by morbosfist

They didn't even confront him in the conventional sense. They (read "Ohgi") judged him as guilty automatically. The only reason he even got a chance to speak is because of Kallen.

True...

Well, if he's punished he can't be much help.

I know that. XD I see it as something a little more though.

Which was his plan, hence his victory. Sure he's dead and it doesn't play out like he wanted, but it seems like Lelouch loses.

Meh... I can see that view on it. It appears to be more of a tie to me though. Not a loss, but not a win either.

Watch the scene again. Remember, these bombs have no limiters and take out 100km radius areas. The Avalon was surely within that area when the bomb was being neutralized. He would surely have hit it.

Very possible. The Avalon though appeared to be on the side (the Avalon appears to be closer to the camera than the blast which appeared more in the backround when it disappated) of the blast though and away from where it would have caused total destruction.

He thought people wanted peace. He decided the best way to go about it was nuke spam, the idea for which he gained by spotting Nina. Somewhere in that head of his the following occurred: "Hmm, this schoolgirl is developing aweapon of mass destruction? Jackpot!" The last bit I agree with.

Exactely! But to him it wasn't really his will or his desires that were the cause, but the desires of everyone. This was practically confirmed and Lelouch knew it as well since he was able to predict what Schneizel was going to say.

[demon_god04]

Originally Posted by Orga777

Pfft. Like he could fully trust the BKs otherwise. XD
But he also didn't threaten them with FLEIA if they didn't agree to his terms. He treated them with respect when meeting with them and didn't appear to look down on them as inferior. The FLEIA thing was mostly for protection if they tried something violent against him IMO. Because having the Second Pricnce and the Prime Minister of Britannia as a hostage is a HUGE bargaining chip.



Meh, I can see where you are coming from here, but I can't say I ever got the same vibe from him. Especially since at that point in time, we don't know anything about Schneizel's plans and they OBVIOUSLY changed in R2. Hints are great and all, but I see it more as Schneizel working behind the Emperor's back. Remember, Code-R was a completely seceret that was behing done behind the Emperor's abck. It can easily be assumed that the Emperor could see that as Schneizel trying to work against him. Add in the fact that Schneizel was working on the Cyborg Jeremiah and the Seigfried in the Code-R project team as well, that could also be something.

Whatever the reason, it is not as if he really had massive balls by going to the Black Knights since he was still holding the FLEIA card and made sure they knew it. But as Morbo said, that does not have much to do with Charisma

Code-R was to research C.C's immortality and Clovis and Bartley planned to present that to Charles as a gift. Code-R was never really anything that threatened Charles and in the end V.V made use of it.

[Orga777]

Originally Posted by morbosfist

It doesn't have to be said. Just having FLEIJA is pretty much an "obey me or you die" statement. Cornelia even spells it out during the meeting: they were in no position to negotiate. Schneizel was very generous to give them back Japan, when he could have told them to go to hell and demanded his brother be turned over. They would have done it, too, because he came ready to die by FLEIJA if it came to that.

Exactely, he didn't have to give them ANYTHING. But he did. Cornelia of course said that because she is Cornelia. XD Schneizel also stopped her from continuing that line of thought and let them give their demands. I don't think he planned to use FLEIA... if he had one that is. XD

Fair enough on the latter part of that. Certainly a big secret. But by the same token, it was obviously being prepared as a new combat advantage, so it probably wasn't so secret that the Emperor didn't know.

Oh I know that the Emperor probably knew. But he could have taken it as Schneizel trying to plot against him.

That wouldn't make sense. If it were just his views then he'd still have to enforce them, so you come back to knowing the plan. Also, Schenizel was taking that power for himself. He is the enforcer, nuking all those who don't fall into line.

Remember though, Schneizel wasn't doing it for himself in his view. Which is my whole point. I don't think Charles knew that.

[Orga777]

You guys reply freaking fast. XD

Originally Posted by demon_god04

Whatever the reason, it is not as if he really had massive balls by going to the Black Knights since he was still holding the FLEIA card and made sure they knew it. But as Morbo said, that does not have much to do with Charisma

Bah. I disagree.

Code-R was to research C.C's immortality and Clovis and Bartley planned to present that to Charles as a gift. Code-R was never really anything that threatened Charles and in the end V.V made use of it.

He made use of it because he kinda captured Bartley. XD
And Charles didn't know that because he didn't have the word of the views of the people involved in Code-R till atleast later. He could have taken it as threat before learning more details. (Probably from Bartley maybe?)

[morbosfist]

Originally Posted by Orga777

Exactely, he didn't have to give them ANYTHING. But he did. Cornelia of course said that because she is Cornelia. XD Schneizel also stopped her from continuing that line of thought and let them give their demands. I don't think he planned to use FLEIA... if he had one that is. XD

People are more reasonable when you throw them a bone, and they had just blown a hole in the country. Let the UFN deal with the cleanup. Also note that Ohgi never delivered and hence he never gave them Japan. He probably could have snubbed them on the spot if they had gotten away with killing Lelouch ("I said I wanted him, not his corpse.") and they wouldn't have been able to say a word.

Originally Posted by Orga777

Oh I know that the Emperor probably knew. But he could have taken it as Schneizel trying to plot against him.

Fair enough.

Originally Posted by Orga777

Remember though, Schneizel wasn't doing it for himself in his view. Which is my whole point. I don't think Charles knew that.

Minor point at best. So he didn't peg his motivations perfectly. He understood his actions, which was the important part.

[demon_god04]

Originally Posted by Orga777

You guys reply freaking fast. XD



Bah. I disagree.



He made use of it because he kinda captured Bartley. XD
And Charles didn't know that because he didn't have the word of the views of the people involved in Code-R till atleast later. He could have taken it as threat before learning more details. (Probably from Bartley maybe?)

Except by that time, Code-R was pretty much not a threat to him since they lost C.C. The very nature of it and the fact that it was instigated by Clovis, who Charles was chatting with in the world of C, leads me to believe that it was not what Charles was referring to when he thought Schneizel was planning on going against him.

[Orga777]

Originally Posted by morbosfist

People are more reasonable when you throw them a bone, and they had just blown a hole in the country. Let the UFN deal with the cleanup. Also note that Ohgi never delivered and hence he never gave them Japan. He probably could have snubbed them on the spot if they had gotten away with killing Lelouch ("I said I wanted him, not his corpse.") and they wouldn't have been able to say a word.

He didn't give them Japan because he pretty much went into hiding in Cambodia after he figured out Lelouch killed their father. He wanted to wait and see what Lelouch would do. Because he was ready to negotiate with Kaguya and the BKs about returning Japan even WITHOUT Lelouch being given to him.

Originally Posted by demon_god04

Except by that time, Code-R was pretty much not a threat to him since they lost C.C. The very nature of it and the fact that it was instigated by Clovis, who Charles was chatting with in the world of C, leads me to believe that it was not what Charles was referring to when he thought Schneizel was planning on going against him.

Indeed, but Clovis didn't know about Cyborg Jeremiah, which was part of the Code-R Team that Schneizel was directly behind.

[morbosfist]

Originally Posted by Orga777

He didn't give them Japan because he pretty much went into hiding in Cambodia after he figured out Lelouch killed their father. He wanted to wait and see what Lelouch would do. Because he was ready to negotiate with Kaguya and the BKs about returning Japan even WITHOUT Lelouch being given to him.

That doesn't have any correlation with not giving them Japan. They didn't fulfill their end of the bargain, so neither did he. The negotiation was for a completely different thing: an armistice. That discussion was not to solidify Ohgi's under the table deal, because it would have exposed what they did.

Originally Posted by Orga777

Indeed, but Clovis didn't know about Cyborg Jeremiah, which was part of the Code-R Team that Schneizel was directly behind.

Didn't exist at that time, so he couldn't possibly know. Code R took off when Schneizel took over. They were mostly in the research phase before that.