[Game] Umineko - Spoilers, Theories, Interpretations

[Renall]

Actually the love trial can still be three-way. Shannontrice has the problem of not being able to be Beatrice without dealing with Shannon's disappearance if Kanon rejects being Shannon. Kanon choosing to remain as one of either Shannon or Kanon obviously destroys the other, but also creates complications for Shannontrice.

The main problem is we have the "one soul" thing, not "two souls for three people." It's equally a dilemma in either case, as there's one who gets left out, but ep6 says only one of them can win, so...

Originally Posted by Will Wright

What else would it explain?

The location of Kanon's body. I am 99% certain that the corpse in the closed room in ep2 is Kanon, assuming Double Shkanon is true, and "Beatrice" is still alive. It also means the body seen in ep3 is real, and possibly that the body of "Shannon" in ep4 is him too, but not necessarily.

Originally Posted by Steampunk Librarian

As someone who has massive breasts

Well that was not how I imagined any post in this thread would ever begin.

[TehChron]

Originally Posted by Renall

Actually the love trial can still be three-way. Shannontrice has the problem of not being able to be Beatrice without dealing with Shannon's disappearance if Kanon rejects being Shannon. Kanon choosing to remain as one of either Shannon or Kanon obviously destroys the other, but also creates complications for Shannontrice.

The main problem is we have the "one soul" thing, not "two souls for three people." It's equally a dilemma in either case, as there's one who gets left out, but ep6 says only one of them can win, so...

If the soul is that of "Kanon", then it all works. Beatrice is just on the sidelines, since it no longer mattered at that point, Yasu's soul would have been united in it's desire to save Battler, or whatever.

[Decagon]

Something about the series has been nagging at me for a while, but I'm not sure if it's because I haven't been paying attention or because we take it for granted. Why do we give Meta-related events and characters any credence at all? Are we supposed to take it for granted because it outlines the rules of the game board?

I realize the happenings in the Meta and the rather spotty barrier between the meta and the game board in the Chiru episodes is to shape our thoughts in the right direction, but it feels like we are constantly being told to think of this as a mystery and to be detectives in a situation where the story detectives directly interact with the people directing the story. Taking into consideration the rules the story claims to follow, how does a detective work with a narrative that a detective typically would not be presented with? Is this supposed to be an original and innovative storytelling tool for a mystery setting?

There was a lot of time spent arguing about red text and blue text ever since they were introduced, and what golden text meant, but does that contribute anything other than provide the reader a crutch to fall back on? A crutch made from dubious material, from dubious origin, and handed to you by characters the author has shown to be unstable, untrustworthy, or otherwise grounded in inexplicable systems shrouded from the reader yet to be introduced? Certainly we know to distrust what is presented to us but hasn't the Meta been used to condition us on what to trust and doubt?

Why not just read each game board as a mystery novel without paying heed to meta interludes and dismissing fantasy sequences as psychotic episodes? Why not just read each story from the perspective of the designated detective whose head we are in?

[TehChron]

Because the other crutches of the mystery genre, Knox and Dine, among others, arent mentioned until later on.

Ryukishi understands that most of his readers never heard of them until Umineko introduced them (myself included)

[Decagon]

Originally Posted by TehChron

Because the other crutches of the mystery genre, Knox and Dine, among others, arent mentioned until later on.

Ryukishi understands that most of his readers never heard of them until Umineko introduced them (myself included)

Yes, but those rules serve to attack Meta elements and fantasy sequences moreso than make us look at the events in the story differently. It's like the Meta is there to tell you not to trust it.

[erneiz_hyde]

hmm...let me sum something up:
- "Yasu"
- "Lion"
- "Shannon-Prime"
- "Yasu-Shannon"
- "Yasu-Kanon"
- "Kanon-Prime"
- "Kanon-Shannon"
- "Beatrice"

Our job right now is how we create an equation from these pieces together so we can get closer to the truth.

The original single Shkanontrice theory goes like: Yasu=Yasu-Shannon=Yasu-Kanon=Beatrice, with both Shannon and Kanon-Prime separate entities if they exist at all, with the assumption made from ep.7 that Yasu=Lion.

But then again:
Will witnessed both Shannon and Lion exist as a different person at the same time at the chapel in the very beginning of ep.7. Also, it seems Will doesn't expect anything wrong with both Shannon and Kannon both existing at the same time until pointed out by Shannon.

This made me think that the current double Shkannon might not be so outrageous afterall. The double Shkannon equation would look like:
Shannon Prime's existence is doubted, Yasu=Yasu-Shannon, possibly our Beatrice and with Yasu-Kanon non-existent. Kanon-Prime=Kanon-Shannon.......something like that?

[TehChron]

Originally Posted by erneiz_hyde

hmm...let me sum something up:
- "Yasu"
- "Lion"
- "Shannon-Prime"
- "Yasu-Shannon"
- "Yasu-Kanon"
- "Kanon-Prime"
- "Kanon-Shannon"
- "Beatrice"

Our job right now is how we create an equation from these pieces together so we can get closer to the truth.

The original single Shkanontrice theory goes like: Yasu=Yasu-Shannon=Yasu-Kanon=Beatrice, with both Shannon and Kanon-Prime separate entities if they exist at all, with the assumption made from ep.7 that Yasu=Lion.

But then again:
Will witnessed both Shannon and Lion exist as a different person at the same time at the chapel in the very beginning of ep.7. Also, it seems Will doesn't expect anything wrong with both Shannon and Kannon both existing at the same time until pointed out by Shannon.

This made me think that the current double Shkannon might not be so outrageous afterall. The double Shkannon equation would look like:
Shannon Prime's existence is doubted, Yasu=Yasu-Shannon, possibly our Beatrice and with Yasu-Kanon non-existent. Kanon-Prime=Kanon-Shannon.......something like that?

More or less.

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by erneiz_hyde

Will witnessed both Shannon and Lion exist as a different person at the same time at the chapel in the very beginning of ep.7.
[/B]

The world Will was placed inside was a quantum catbox. Two realities existed at the same time. The people Will made questions to had two different memories, the memories of the world where Lion exist and the memories of the world where Lion doesn't exist.

Since Lion and Yasu development in the two worlds is totally different then they exist as two different persons in that catbox.


How did you miss the part where Will says there are two culprits the "dead cat" and the "alive cat"? Even if we don't see it, at one point Lion faces her other self of the other world, and they are there at the same time. And that culprit had to be present in the chapel where Will was brought to.
So I really can't see how there can be any doubt about this issue. Why people insist that it's impossible for Lion to face her other self of another world where it's clearly shown that it's possible?

It is also quite evident that Shannon and Kanon do not exist in Lion's world and Lion does't exist in Shkanon's world. So no matter how you want to put it, they normally couldn't be found in the same universe, and the easiest explanation to this is that they are the same person.

Why not just read each game board as a mystery novel without paying heed to meta interludes and dismissing fantasy sequences as psychotic episodes? Why not just read each story from the perspective of the designated detective whose head we are in?

I don't think that's the correct approach to understand this story, it isn't your usual mystery novel. I also tend to think metascenes are more important than game scenes, because inside the gameboard any lie can be created while the metaworld isn't a lie, it just needs to be interpreted.

As for each game I think that at this point simply using Will's statements I can solve 80% of them, with Yasu as the culprit.

[erneiz_hyde]

Actually "double Shkannon theory" sounds misleading because it sounds that both Shannon and Kannon can switch each other's places, but actually Yasu as Shannon never crossdress as Kanon, while Kanon crossdress as Shannon once in a while, and this makes Kanon Yasu's accomplice. In the end, Yasu is still the ultimate culprit so it doesn't really sound that strange. Kanon could've agreed to help since as we've seen many times before Kanon thinks Shannon as his own sister, although sometimes he questions her too.

Edit: though yes, it seems in Lion's world, Lion doesn't react too familiar with the name "Shannon" and "Kannon". But, if that world is a closed cat box like Jan-Poo suggested, it could also be that the Shannon and Kannon represented there is the original Kanon who periodically crossdress as Shannon in the other worlds.

Edit2: also, Will already explained that the Dead Cat and the Alive Cat refer to Lion and Yasu, though I forgot which refers to which.

[Jan-Poo]

So in the end it isn't a double shkanon theory, it's a "one shkanon an a half" theory.
And you still have fake boobs.

[erneiz_hyde]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

And you still have fake boobs.

lol yes, that makes it so

[Renall]

And if only one has them, the long-standing joke about Battler solving the mystery in five seconds by groping Shannon actually works as a flawless Shkanon Current State Detection Device.

Gropedar?

[Steampunk Librarian]

Well, since we are even discussing that someone is disguising as someone else (or that Shannon is actually both Shannon and Kanon), then we will always have the issue of fake boobs.

If you are willing to accept that single Shkannon stuffs their bra to make the illusion work, then you should be willing to accept that Kanon in double Kashannon stuffs their bra to make their illusion work.

But just about anything else, like red, clues and motive, is up for grabs.

[Renall]

The one thing made more difficult is motive, as now you have somebody proposing to the other that they do this, and the other actually having cause to do it. Granted, it more readily explains Kanon's turn to resistance of the plan, but not why he'd go along with the plan in the first place.

[Steampunk Librarian]

Originally Posted by Renall

The one thing made more difficult is motive, as now you have somebody proposing to the other that they do this, and the other actually having cause to do it. Granted, it more readily explains Kanon's turn to resistance of the plan, but not why he'd go along with the plan in the first place.

Yasu-Shannon, if she is the culprit of murder(s), probably explains something to Kanon when it comes to how it would be good for him. Maybe something like, "If we kill the mistress, then you will not be furniture." Or something along those lines. We do know Kashannon has to have some sort of negative feelings toward Eva and Natsuhi. Or maybe, unlike what we think, Kanon is a pushover and the personality we see Shannon take (cuteness) is actually how Kanon really is, while when he dresses like he usually does, he tries to act all smug and keep people away from him.

In my opinion, in some games he goes along with the murders for the sake of love with George (or Jessica), but in others he turns against Yasu-Shannon.

[Jan-Poo]

So in the end Jessica is either infatuated with a girl or a crossdresser.
No matter what she always ends up with the short end of the stick.

[Steampunk Librarian]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

So in the end Jessica is either infatuated with a girl or a crossdresser.
No matter what she always ends up with the short end of the stick.

More or less, yeah. That might tie into why Kanon, who is not Yasu and can love, tells her that love between them is not possible. The furniture thing might be an excuse since he probably was coached to believe that by Yasu as well as Genji.

I sort of wonder about another angle this could take, because it seems out of place for Yasu-Shannon to go around killing people. I'm wondering if her play as Beatrice was some kind of trick she wanted to play on the adults so that by way X she could get closer to Battler. Somehow that trick goes wrong by adult X realizing/finding out who Beatrice really is, thus she becomes an unwilling accomplice to murder. Adult X could be Kyrie for all intents and purposes, since she is the smartest out of the bunch. Kyrie, wanting to take advantage of Beatrice's game with the other adults, sets out to murder the others knowing that if they figure out who Beatrice is (Shannon), they will stop looking for the true culprit?

That's just sort of what I've been sitting on since the end of arc 4. Minus the Yasu-part. I still wonder who the stakes are supposed to be. If Kyrie is the true culprit, then I wonder if she would still be the stake of envy in my old theory.

[Used Can]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

No matter what she always ends up with the short end of the stick.

Maybe.... she simply doesn't want the stick, if you know what I mean.

[erneiz_hyde]

according to ep.7. the stakes are the servants

Mamon=Manon
Belphegor=Berune
Leviathan=Renon
Asmodeus=Asune

and other stakes may correspond to other servants we haven't seen. (also note that 音　can be read as -on, -non, or -ne)

also, I'm pretty sure I've seen Satan's sprite as a servant, though her name wasn't given or I forgot. It may or may not be Shannon.

[Helmet-kun]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

So in the end Jessica is either infatuated with a girl or a crossdresser.
No matter what she always ends up with the short end of the stick.

Well, considering how well things turned out for her during episodes...1-7, it's not surprising. In fact, the whole 'head family' is usually kicked around, what with the gold and all.

It's just how karma works.