Character Discussion - Kallen

[metronome]

Originally Posted by Fenrir_valindri

To Kallen's ears this must have sounded like a complete betrayal of how Zero had portrayed himself, he was definitely no "Ally of Justice" at that time, and hence Kallen's confusion. You can't expect a 17-18 year old girl to coldly and logically decide that she should still help someone who basically admitted all of Japan was his chessboard. (Even if that wasn't how he really felt, it is what he said)

But well, it is true that they are all chessboard. it is common in war, she shouldn't participate if she doesn't want to be a chess piece, not that she does not has choice.

[Fenrir_valindri]

He didn't deny the accusation that he was USING Japan, and that isn't something easy to swallow, even for a freedom fighter.

Kallen is still a 17-18 year old girl, despite being a member of the resistance, and finding out you were being used like a tool (percieved) by someone you knew (outside of your freedom fighting) would be more then a little shocking, even for a hardened soldier.

Ideals are also important, and Lelouch gave the impression that he was not the man he claimed to be (The Ally of Justice)

That wasn't a matter of fangirlism anymore, it was a matter of Zero basically saying that helping Japan was just a means to an end, not the goal. (Which for any Japanese person fighting for freedom, would be more then shocking, considering he is supposed to their leader and they entrust their lives to him.)

Could she have recovered the situation? Sure, if she knew everything we viewers know, and didn't have any real feelings at all. Her reaction was perfectly understandable, even if it was undesirable.


Edit: Being used as a disposable chess piece is not something any soldier would like to hear, Commander's should value their soldiers lives, not treat them as pawns.

[Aquaman OS]

Exactly. If my leader suddenly revealed that everything he'd ever said to me was a lie and that I was just a means to an end to him, I'd leave him to get the crap kicked out of him too if not kill him myself. I'd be better off without him.

[evil|plushie]

Even if Zero admitted that helping Japan was a means to an end (and seriously, he's already admitted he's non-britainnian. Why would they think his end-all goal was just to help japan???), in the end it doesn't change the fact that by working under Zero, Japan would still be liberated.

I don't think it's a matter of Kallen having 'real' feelings per se, but her being too emotional. It's just as likely that if you put any of the adult members of the OoTBK there (except for Tamaki) like Ougi or Todoh etc, they would have realised that even if Zero was manipulating Japan, in the end, Japan would still be freed and have tried to help him. Even Ougi realised Zero must have a reason for doing what he does.

[Fenrir_valindri]

Originally Posted by evil|plushie

Using her to do what? Using her to liberate Japan for his own goals? In the end, isn't that what Kallen herself wants? A liberated Japan?

Using Japan as a stepping stool to be the next ruler of the world when he claimed to be an Ally of Justice? Yeah, that would sit well with me.

Really, people are are just pissed that suddenly other people are questioning Kallens own character and conduct at the end of season 1 and are throwing the blame towards Suzaku for being there and being godhax and Lelouch for not admitting his true desires and feelings. But the fact of the matter is, Kallen is a soldier. She's not supposed to be a fangirl and if she had actually thought with her brain instead of her emotions at the end of s1, Japan probably would have been liberated already.

Your seem to be laying all the blaim at Kallen's feet when it is the fault of multiple parties. (Lelouch, Suzaku, V.V. , as well as Kallen near the end)

Soldiers are humans to you know, they have emotions, and it impossible for a soldier always act like one.

Especially when you are a soldier fighting for an ideal as well as a goal.


Edit: Just because he is a non-Japanese does not mean that he couldn't be working with their interest in mind, or towards the ideal that he stated himself.

He portrayed himself as the Justice-Seeking savior of Japan, and he turned out to be just as flawed and selfish as any person, he simply built himself too high.

As for putting other (Adult) members in that situation, I could really only see Todoh acting the way you want. Ougi is as loyal to Zero as Kallen was, and for simliar reasons, to him Zero was the idealistic leader that could lead them to victory.

If he suddenly found out in a simliar fashion that he, and Japan, were nothing but tools to Zero, then he wouldn't react well either.

[evil|plushie]

Originally Posted by Aquaman OS

Exactly. If my leader suddenly revealed that everything he'd ever said to me was a lie and that I was just a means to an end to him, I'd leave him to get the crap kicked out of him too if not kill him myself. I'd be better off without him.

You mean better of by having to work as a bunny girl? By having most of your fellow rebels captured and imprisoned? By having the goal of liberating japan get even more impossible than it was before? By having televised executions of your country men? And then having to go and free that very same leader a year later?

And besides, was everything he said a lie? No. There's no doubting that Zero lies, but not everything. He wasn't lying when he offered Kallen a way out nor was he lying when he said that he had to go on because of all the innocent bled shed because of him.

[metronome]

Originally Posted by fenrir_valindri

Kallen is still a 17-18 year old girl, despite being a member of the resistance, and finding out you were being used like a tool (percieved) by someone you knew (outside of your freedom fighting) would be more then a little shocking, even for a hardened soldier.

it will be shocking, if you do not expect zero to do so
the problem is, she does not expect zero to do so, while in common sense she should have.
I mean,
1. she knows he is not japanese
2. she doesnt know his face and neither zero want to show his face (except one time offer to kallen that kallen herself rejected).

like I say before, you got a box. It is 30 cm x 30 cm x 30 cm. It is closed tightly. You can't see what is inside. You tried to scan it etc, you just cant find out what is inside unless you open it. You dont eve know the sender. And there is a note on the top of the box saying that you may not open it. So what do you expect to be inside? Something super?:P. Well, the box looks good, looks maintained, made from something expensive, the sender must have had a lot of money to create the box alone, heck, xray and laser scan doesnt even let you know what is inside, not to mention the only one that can open the box is you, must be damm expensive box. But still, what do u expect to be inside? Money? Ya, ya, ya, it will be damm shocking if what is inside is poisonous snake that's still alive and ready to snap you, I know most of the people can't accept the reality that what is inside might not be good, especially, after they think what is inside is so good.

So basically, the paragraph above is not for debate, it is just an insight.

The guy that wanted open the box SHOULD have known that what is inside the box is mostly bad. But yet, they just can't accept it although he himself has predicted it. And in case of kallen, she is one of the guy that tried to predict what is inside, when she can't find out, she will make herself sure by using her damm emotion that the box is great etc, so what is inside must not be bad.

It is not bad, I don't say she is a bad character
it is understandable
just that she is kind of weak, not as strong as she looks.
she is coming back to season 2 as a stronger character too since she can at least accept that lelouch is zero, she just want lelouch to be zero-like

[evil|plushie]

Originally Posted by Fenrir_valindri

Using Japan as a stepping stool to be the next ruler of the world when he claimed to be an Ally of Justice? Yeah, that would sit well with me.

Dammit, seriously I hate that quote. The exact phrase in episode 25 was that he would be the man who would hold the world in his hand. This has different connotations from actually being the ruler of the world -_-.

Your seem to be laying all the blaim at Kallen's feet when it is the fault of multiple parties. (Lelouch, Suzaku, V.V. , as well as Kallen near the end)

No, I've said that Lelouch has some of the blame. Suzaku not so much, because he was doing his job. The problem is that almost everyone else has understandable reasons for doing what they want to do. Except for Kallen. Does she actually want to free Japan or is she more of a fangirl? I actually had a pretty decent impression of her before that ep because she was independent and not that emotional but episode 25 basically flipped her character on its head and turned her into a bleeding fangirl.

Soldiers are humans to you know, they have emotions, and it impossible for a soldier always act like one.

Especially when you are a soldier fighting for an ideal as well as a goal.

What ideal was she fighting for? Her goal was to free Japan, but I haven't seen her fighting for much of an ideal.

And trust me, I'd blame any soldier who was put in the same situation as Kallen and reacted like her. It's not just Kallen, but the overemotional reaction is what irks me.

[Fenrir_valindri]

Originally Posted by evil|plushie

You mean better of by having to work as a bunny girl? By having most of your fellow rebels captured and imprisoned? By having the goal of liberating japan get even more impossible than it was before? By having televised executions of your country men? And then having to go and free that very same leader a year later?

Yes, because Kallen should have the future sight that we do on her situation, where we understand Lelouch's true character and reasons from the get go.

And besides, was everything he said a lie? No. There's no doubting that Zero lies, but not everything. He wasn't lying when he offered Kallen a way out nor was he lying when he said that he had to go on because of all the innocent bled shed because of him.

Yes, but those situations wouldn't come to mind with the knowledge she suddenly found being jammed into her head.

1) Lelouch = Zero
2) Lelouch says he wants to rule the world
3) Lelouch admits he is just using Japan (the people who are giving their lives following him)
4) Doesn't deny any of the negative accusations Suzaku makes against him, further confusing Kallen.


If he had simply chosen his words better, the situation would not have gone as badly as it did, but he was panicked due to Nunnaly's abduction and Suzaku's interferance, which made him appear more evil then he really was.

---------------

Originally Posted by metronome

it will be shocking, if you do not expect zero to do so
the problem is, she does not expect zero to do so, while in common sense she should have.
I mean,
1. she knows he is not japanese
2. she doesnt know his face and neither zero want to show his face (except one time offer to kallen that kallen herself rejected).

#1 does not mean that he wasn't fighting for the ideal that he himself had set.
#2 finding out you were being used as a tool, by someone you know, would not be something you could just shrug off.

If Kallen had half the information we do, then she would have reacted more like we wanted her to.

Edit: I do think they over-amped Kallen's reaction for that situation, as it didn't fit with our previous understanding of her character, but that doesn't make her reaction any less understandable.

Kallen's goal was originally just being a thorn in Britannia's side, then Zero came and gave her a bigger goal, a grander vision, to free Japan, and then later he set the bar even higher, saying they should be Allies of Justice and help those in need.

And then suddenly he admits that he just did all of this to use Japan? It is kind of like building a huge pedestal then jumping off it without a safety net.


I also was not aware that the translation of Lelouch's words at that point were inaccurate, but the context could easily be mistaken considering the situation. He doesn't exactly have the "good guy" look going for him either. :P

[metronome]

#1 does not mean that he wasn't fighting for the ideal that he himself had set.
#2 finding out you were being used as a tool, by someone you know, would not be something you could just shrug off.

If Kallen had half the information we do, then she would have reacted more like we wanted her to

#1 is debatable.
#2 even if it is your friend, being used and using someone is pretty common, most of the time, like a tool. even in love, u use your partner, your partner use you, it is like tool too. in the work, you are your boss tool, a willing one, well, it is not that u are not using your boss too, you need money, your boss is your money tool too
I know every person has different and diverse understanding (and view) on what "being used like a tool"really means, but, kallen doesnt even know him. how come she thinks she knows him? she does not even know his face.

well about if kallen know half of what we know now, it is called cheating, it is like that sealed box story, you already know half of what is inside:P, that's why there is a story like this in code geass. what a smart story writer:P

btw, nice talking with ya guy
tomorro is monday and it is 12.20 AM here, time to sleep~~

[evil|plushie]

Originally Posted by Fenrir_valindri

Yes, because Kallen should have the future sight that we do on her situation, where we understand Lelouch's true character and reasons from the get go.

No, because Kallen should have realised that the OoTBK was LOSING without Zero. All the successes they had? Because of Zero. So without Zero, what happens? That's right, the OoTBK gets pwned. And when does this happen, when it's the big crucial battle between Britainnia and the OoTBK where if they win, Japan can get liberated. So yes, it's a heck of a bad time for Kallen to over-react.

Yes, but those situations wouldn't come to mind with the knowledge she suddenly found being jammed into her head.

1) Lelouch = Zero
2) Lelouch says he wants to rule the world
3) Lelouch admits he is just using Japan (the people who are giving their lives following him)
4) Doesn't deny any of the negative accusations Suzaku makes against him, further confusing Kallen.


If he had simply chosen his words better, the situation would not have gone as badly as it did, but he was panicked due to Nunnaly's abduction and Suzaku's interferance, which made him appear more evil then he really was.

I agree that Lelouch should really really have tried to portray himself better (and I still disagree with the whole ruling the world translation -_-)

And again, Lelouch was using Japan, but to what extent? He was liberating Japan wasn't it? Yes, there were lifes being lost by following him, but do she expect that somehow if they followed someone whos end-goal was just liberating Japan that there would be no lifes lost? Or less lifes lost? That's ridiculous. What makes Zeros goal of freeing japan any less worthwhile than Todohs? Just because he doesn't plan to stop there? I think the dilemma is simple, would she rather follow someone whose end-goal is just to free japan but who might not accomplish it or someone whose goal goes beyond freeing japan but who would probably accomplish it?

As for Suzaku...he's an enemy combatant. The sheer ease in which she's psycho-crushed by him is what makes me think she's weaker than Shirley. At least the last time Shirley was mindraped by Mao, it was done by someone who could literally see into her thoughts and figure out what made her tick and it was over real issues of guilt about kissing Zero/Lelouch, but at the very least she managed to stop herself from killing Lelouch and stop Mao from killing him too. Kallen otoh, one Suzaku psychotherapy session later (lasting about maybe 5mins) and poof, she deserts Zero to Suzaku.

[Slick_rick]

Originally Posted by evil|plushie

No, I've said that Lelouch has some of the blame. Suzaku not so much, because he was doing his job. The problem is that almost everyone else has understandable reasons for doing what they want to do. Except for Kallen. Does she actually want to free Japan or is she more of a fangirl? I actually had a pretty decent impression of her before that ep because she was independent and not that emotional but episode 25 basically flipped her character on its head and turned her into a bleeding fangirl.



What ideal was she fighting for? Her goal was to free Japan, but I haven't seen her fighting for much of an ideal.

And trust me, I'd blame any soldier who was put in the same situation as Kallen and reacted like her. It's not just Kallen, but the overemotional reaction is what irks me.

Kallen had many doubts during S1 especially after the hotdog vendor incident and Shirley fathers death. The person who helped her through those doubts was Zero. Finding out that he was using her the whole time was shocking for her. She's shown to be very emotional attached to him especially in the scene when Suzaku was about to shot Zero and she climbed out of her Knightmare and ran towards him screaming frantically. Her emotions and doubts define her especially more than the Brittanian Soldiers that slaughter innocent civilian without reservation. Hell even Lelouch seemed to understand why she ran away.

[Fenrir_valindri]

Originally Posted by metronome

#1 is debatable.

Indeed

#2 even if it is your friend, being used and using someone is pretty common, most of the time, like a tool. even in love, u use your partner, your partner use you, it is like tool too. in the work, you are your boss tool, a willing one, well, it is not that u are not using your boss too, you need money, your boss is your money tool too
I know every person has different and diverse understanding (and view) on what "being used like a tool"really means, but, kallen doesnt even know him. how come she thinks she knows him? she does not even know his face.

Being used as a tool rather then an ally has rather different meanings, a comrade is unique and irresplacable, while a tool is something that is used until it breaks, and then you just get a new one.

I don't know what type of partners you know, but they sounded pretty crappy.

well about if kallen know half of what we know now, it is called cheating, it is like that sealed box story, you already know half of what inside:P

But people's expectations of Kallen's response would have required her to have at least that much of an understanding, but she just had a large jumble of confusion and misinterpretation to work with.

btw, nice talking with ya guy
tomorro is monday and it is 12.20 AM here, time to sleep~~

Always fun to debate, headed to bed myself after this post.

------------

Originally Posted by evil|plushie

No, because Kallen should have realised that the OoTBK was LOSING without Zero. All the successes they had? Because of Zero. So without Zero, what happens? That's right, the OoTBK gets pwned. And when does this happen, when it's the big crucial battle between Britainnia and the OoTBK where if they win, Japan can get liberated. So yes, it's a heck of a bad time for Kallen to over-react.

It was a bad time for Kallen to be thrown into the situation she was in, but she wouldn't be able to calmly analyze long-term goals when her leader is at gun-point, and then she finds out her leader's true identity, and he freely admits that he is using them as tools (As I have stated before, this would hurt ALOT).

The situation was built up so she WOULD be confused, anyone would be in her shoes, and its not like she had a good amount of time to think about it, that scene was like 2 minutes at best, not alot of time to recover from shocking revelations. In situations like this, most people's minds immediatly turn to "worst-case scenario" mode, and Lelouch's own words weren't helping Kallen recover either.

I agree that Lelouch should really really have tried to portray himself better (and I still disagree with the whole ruling the world translation -_-)

I hope he gets better at that this season, it would help him loads.

And again, Lelouch was using Japan, but to what extent? He was liberating Japan wasn't it? Yes, there were lifes being lost by following him, but do she expect that somehow if they followed someone whos end-goal was just liberating Japan that there would be no lifes lost? Or less lifes lost? That's ridiculous. What makes Zeros goal of freeing japan any less worthwhile than Todohs? Just because he doesn't plan to stop there? I think the dilemma is simple, would she rather follow someone whose end-goal is just to free japan but who might not accomplish it or someone whose goal goes beyond freeing japan but who would probably accomplish it?

The idealistic goal of being an ally of justice and fighting to free their own country from the an evil Empire is something people can live and die for, but fighting and dying for the selfish reasons of a single person is different, even if related.

Remember; most people would immediatly focus on the flaws, not the perks, of such a situation.

As for Suzaku...he's an enemy combatant. The sheer ease in which she's psycho-crushed by him is what makes me think she's weaker than Shirley. At least the last time Shirley was mindraped by Mao, it was done by someone who could literally see into her thoughts and figure out what made her tick and it was over real issues of guilt about kissing Zero/Lelouch, but at the very least she managed to stop herself from killing Lelouch and stop Mao from killing him too. Kallen otoh, one Suzaku psychotherapy session later (lasting about maybe 5mins) and poof, she deserts Zero to Suzaku.

Shirley probably could have recovered just fine IMO, Lelouch jumped the gun in mind-wiping her.

Kallen was someone who not only respected, but idolized Zero, and Lelouch certainly didn't discourage it, so when Lelouch was standing their with that smile of his, basically accepting all the accusations Suzaku was throwing at him, and admiting to a few of them as well, it is likely to make her crack, no matter how temporarily.

Shirley also actively tried to kill Lelouch, while Kallen simply escaped at gun-point.

-------

Regardless, that's all I really have to say on the situation, your either understand her reaction or you don't, it is a matter of personal opinion at this point.

I need to sleep

[evil|plushie]

Originally Posted by Fenrir_valindri

It was a bad time for Kallen to be thrown into the situation she was in, but she wouldn't be able to calmly analyze long-term goals when her leader is at gun-point, and then she finds out her leader's true identity, and he freely admits that he is using them as tools (As I have stated before, this would hurt ALOT).

The situation was built up so she WOULD be confused, anyone would be in her shoes, and its not like she had a good amount of time to think about it, that scene was like 2 minutes at best, not alot of time to recover from shocking revelations. In situations like this, most people's minds immediatly turn to "worst-case scenario" mode, and Lelouch's own words weren't helping Kallen recover either.

Agreed, it was a very bad time. However, it still doesn't change the fact that Kallen pretty much over-reacted emotionally instead of thinking about it. At the very least, she could have STAYED there and pondered the issue over instead of just running off.

I hope he gets better at that this season, it would help him loads.

It would but somehow I doubt he would, knowing his personality.

The idealistic goal of being an ally of justice and fighting to free their own country from the an evil Empire is something people can live and die for, but fighting and dying for the selfish reasons of a single person is different, even if related.

Remember; most people would immediatly focus on the flaws, not the perks, of such a situation.

This is the part I have problems with. Were the OoTBK fighting for Zeros ideals/goals or were they fighting for their own? I think it's the latter as almost all of them are fighting for Japans liberation. That is the reason they are fighting, not for anything else and Zero was nearly able to liberate Japan. It's not as if they're religious fanatics who are fighting purely for an ideal, but rather for a goal they already have.

The selfish reasons of a single person? Do they even know what his reasons are? (and not that mistranslated line again) Nowhere has Zero said that his sole goal was liberating Japan.

Kallen was someone who not only respected, but idolized Zero, and Lelouch certainly didn't discourage it, so when Lelouch was standing their with that smile of his, basically accepting all the accusations Suzaku was throwing at him, and admiting to a few of them as well, it is likely to make her crack, no matter how temporarily.

Shirley also actively tried to kill Lelouch, while Kallen simply escaped at gun-point.

True, Shirley tried to kill Lelouch but she was being messed with by a master. Kallen was being messed with by Suzaku of all people.

The problem,imo, is Kallens idolworship of Zero, which is why I said she's very much like a fangirl.

[prototype_sky]

Kallen failed Zero so many times against Suzaku . He needs to replace her this season if he wishes to win hopefully this is where Rollo or Xing comes in.

[SeedFreedom]

Originally Posted by prototype_sky

Kallen failed Zero so many times against Suzaku . He needs to replace her this season if he wishes to win hopefully this is where Rollo or Xing comes in.

When has kallen ever failed Zero? All the battles Zero lost were on the count of new weaponry that they had not know about and did not account for. Please keep your fanboy statements to yourself unless you can provide evidence Kallen was incompetent.

[ashlay]

Originally Posted by SeedFreedom

When has kallen ever failed Zero? All the battles Zero lost were on the count of new weaponry that they had not know about and did not account for. Please keep your fanboy statements to yourself unless you can provide evidence Kallen was incompetent.

well, except for in the cave, as 27 showed us. She failed Zero and the Rebellion pretty massively there, and all because she let her emotions be manipulated by the words of an enemy. >_>

But of course it's all better now, Kallen's fixed her mistake and helped to save Lelouch at last.

[SeedFreedom]

Wouldn't really call that failed. Resistance pretty much was done at that point. Plus it distroyed her faith in everything she thought was real. Mind games =/= failed.

[ashlay]

Originally Posted by SeedFreedom

Wouldn't really call that failed. Resistance pretty much was done at that point. Plus it distroyed her faith in everything she thought was real. Mind games =/= failed.

Zero got captured, didn't he? But Ougi told Kallen to save Zero, didn't he? It was indeed a failure on her part, her first great failure.

But hey, failures are important too, they help to build character. (quite literally >_>) Now she's got new issues to deal with when it comes to Lelouch and Suzaku and Ougi, among others. From a development perspective, it's definitely a good thing.

[Dann of Thursday]

She should have listened to Ougi. Everyone should listen to Ougi more.