[Game] Umineko - Spoilers, Theories, Interpretations

[Oliver]

Originally Posted by Judoh

How many times have you read episode 1 Oliver? Thats a very interesting theory.

That's the second time -- with rigorous notes on everything that occurs to me along the way. I'm only posting the most interesting ones, but I'll go through the notes when I'm done and see if any of them add up to something fresh as well.

[Renall]

I like you. You have a lot of new ideas.

This ep1 solution does assume a couple things though:

• That people really would assume Eva and Hideyoshi went to the same room.
• That the person who is the killer actually knew this.
• That the killer knew the doors would be mixed up by any innocent persons (either of Kanon or Genji must be innocent for this theory, as otherwise it's much easier for them to simply lie to cover for the killer).
• That the behavior of the people who found the letter at the decoy room is predictable (this requires either prescience, or a "handler" among those expected to discover the decoy room who will send the innocents away so they don't discover the "real" door and who will not take the letter away).

These things aren't impossible, but I would caution that some of them are a bit implausible. Don't forget that ep5 gives us some parallels to ep1, and suggests other solutions (hiding in the room proper, etc.).

Are the lights and TV on in Eva and Hideyoshi's room as well? Were they on when the bodies were discovered?

[Vheissu]

since a long time i started formulating a certain theory, since the first time i thought of this i found it pretty interesting so all of my thoughts have directed in that direction, i wanted to post it here after i finished it but it seems that i found the limit my mind alone can reach, so i would be glad if you could read my theory and give your thoughts about it.
i'm not so sure about ep 1 & 2 but i'm really confident about my deductions of ep 3 & 4.
i'm pretty bad at describing things so please bear with me if i say something that's not clear enough, also i warn you, this will be huge and the culprits are very evil.

Spoiler for basics:

This theory goes around a kyrie-mastermind and a shannon-kanon-trice ( yes, this is different to the popular shkanontrice because shannon and kanon are 2 different persons in the entire extention of the word) as accomplices, also i take into consideration that the ep 1-2 are the letters in the bottles and that 3-6 are written by hachijo.
another thing that is very important but not taken into account are the siestas, siesta 45, siesta 410 and siesta 00 refer to the .45 long colt (the bullets the winchesters in the story use, according to the 1ep tips), .410 bore and 12 gauge 00 buck shot respectively, these along the stakes are the weapons of murder. Don't mind siesta 556, she doesn't have any involvement in this story afterall.
now let's explain this bullets, .45 long colt it's a very popular one, one of the feats this bullet has, it is it's great stopping power, capable of incapacitating a person with a single shot, another thing is that it has a very low temporary cavitation, so the result of a wound from this bullet will result in a clean hole, just as the one battler presents in ep3.
next is .410 bore, this one is a shotgun shell (although,given it's small size, it could be used with the winchester) not a very powerful one, but it gets the job done, and it has very low recoil.
and last but not least, it's the 12 gauge 00 buck shot, another shotgun shell but unlike the last one, this is very powerful, if someone were to shoot you with one of this a few centimetres away from your face, i can guarantee that you will lose it entirely or the half of it depending on the angle of the shot.
The stakes don't need any description, they are simple stakes as we have seen before.
Also, i'm gonna explain the three rules that govern over umineko, i alredy posted them before but in case you haven't read them they are:
rule x: "this story is bound to an inescapable faith geared up by a strong will", just like higurashi, this is the core of the witch, the motivation of the culprit is really strong to the point that lamda can say with certainty that bern can't win.
rule y:"all the magic is an ilusion" the mere existence of the witch is an ilusion, and the ilusions could be fabricated in two different ways, a lie or a misunderstanding of a scene, for example, the existance of kinzo is fabricated by everyone lying that he is dead.
rule z:"the culprit does not use the same modus operandi in every game"kyrie has been in this family for many years, and with the knowledge of 4 servants, she knows them in great detail, how they act, react to things and she's very clever, the first thing she does is observe, analyze what happens in the gameboard and depending on this attack the weakest point and gain control over the gameboard, making them move as she wants. this can be seen when i start explainig the episodes.

now, let's start with the mysteries shall we?

Spoiler for ep 1:

A large portion of this epsiode is about the introduction of the characters and some of their situations so let's skip that.
the first movement of all this mess begins with something simple, after the cousins move to the beach and the adults are talking about the inheritance, kanon or shannon cuts maria's rose, we all know how stubborn maria is, so no matter how it would have gone the result would have been the same, the complete isolation of maria.
shannon, dressed as beatrice, gives maria the umbrella and envelope, tells hyer to open it after dinner and make sure everyone else believes in her. maria promises to make what beatrice tolds her and then she leaves, and tellls her to wait for her mother to come.
shannon's alibi to this is supported by kumasawa, but, seeing how she is the prime suspect of being virgilia... i guess there's not many weigt to her claim.
Maria did exactly as she was told, and the doubt of a 19th person starts to float in the air.
after some time, most likely kanon called to rudolf and threatened him.
the clock marks the start of the next day, eva and hideyoshi are tired and go to sleep, natsuhi was abscent this time, so the only ines in the parents reunion where rudolf,kyrie, rosa and krauss. suddenly kanon and shannon enters the dinning hall, and along with kyrie kills krauss, rudolf and rosa. they go after gohda next and succeds, and at the end they try to kill natsuhi, but to their surprise they find maria's charm. Kyrie decidees that it's better to not kill her, they mark the door to simulate as if someone tried to enter, and instead of natsuhi, shannon takes her place.
the three of them move the corpses to the gardening shed and there kanon kills both kyrie and shannon, and so the first twilight is complete.
the morning comes and the gruesome murders are discovered, thier faces are completely destroyed, they were shot point-blank with a 12 gauge 00 buck shot, but they think that they were done after killing them.
they hole up in the parlor but as time passes, they forget about this murders and start to wander on their own, eva and hideyoshi are in their bedroom, kanon and gengi are with the excuse of telling them about lunch, but kanon cuts the chain, shoots them and places a stake in their foreheads, while gengi paints the magic circle in the door, then when everyone enters they find two corpses in what is claimed to be a closed room, but there's no weight to support this, only the claims of gengi (or ronove as you like) and kanon the killer, this isn't really a closed room at all.
before this scene, kumasawa or someone threw kinzo's corpse to the boiler and the stench was very recognizable when everyone left the 2nd twilight scene, kanon runs towards to find the source and kumasawa goes with him. there, he opens the courtyard doors and then stabs himself in the chest, a terrible wound, but not fatal, kumasawa gets nanjo kick after this and he takes care of him, while he is bandaging him, he confesses that he stabbed himself, his purpose was to see the reaction of everyone else and to obtain an alibi so he can spy everone in the shadows and search for the culprit, nanjo believes him and says that everyone that he died, eventhough that's not the case.
after all this murders, they know they need to find a better place to protect themselves, so they decide to hole up in kinzo's study. There a moment where everyone was distracted, gengi,kumasawa or maria slipped the envelope and they with nanjo are forced to leave.
the four of the are found in the parlor, and so kanon enters, tells maria that beatrice will enter in a moment to finish the ritual, she needs to sing, and turn around for a while.
maria obendiently does, and kanon kills the three persons, stakes them, then he leaves and closes the door.
the survivors dirscover the scene and start to interrogate maria, natsuhi takes a glance of kanon and then she closes the door, just to make sure they are safe, but is killed by kanon.
the cousins are the only ones left in this massacre, they can't understand it, the clock chimes, it's the mark of the end of the game, the boiler explodes, and everyone dies, there are no survivors...

Spoiler for ep 2:

the first scene of this episode is quite big and very important, i still don't understand it well but i'm very convinced that what this scene tells us, is the moment where kyrie recruits shannon and kanon to participate in this murders, the first time that shannon met beatrice was during a family conference and kyrie was rudolf's wife for quite some time, if she wanted to kill everyone that long ago, then it's essential that she counts with the support of one servant at least, and after seeing a distressed shannon crying in front of the beatrice portrait she became the perfect one.
but i still don't know what are the reason to why she agreed to go through all that, it doesn't seem quite right. Being her the one most likely to be dressing as beatrice, and how it seems that she loves battler (according to what i've read from ep6), i used to think that she was in love with battler, but he defected from the family and george started to take attention into her, summisive as she is, she just let's him go his way, but she still can't forget battler so when kyrie founds her, she promises to let her be reunited with him once more, but for that she needs her assistance to kill everyone else first. But i just can't leave thinking there's something not right here, there are inconsistencies in this.
And for how she also got the help of kanon... it's still a mystery, he would not give his help for love. His reason i think is way darker.
now let's start with the gameboard, the movements here are more complicated and i'm not really sure of this episode.
maria is left isolated again, but this is not enough, kyrie reminds rosa about this and she runs to find her, after she does, shannon, dressed as beatrice enters the scene, rosa can't believe how she can be alive, using the candy of kanon and some sleight of hand, she convinves maria that she magically restored the candy, rosa to don't kill mari's joy, don't says anything, after this she gives them the envelopes and she enters the mansion.
kyrie is in the corridor, waiting for shannon and know how things went, and also as a 3rd witness of the existanc of the witch.
i dont remember if rosa's envelope contents were said, but i think they said that all of the adults should go to the chapel at midnight. with 3 witnesses they don't doubt of her existance and go to see her with their own eyes.
when they arrive at the chapel, the door is open and, as everyone thought, beatrice was present, and then they leave, without closing the door. while they are asleep, kanon, shannon and kyrie drags the 5 adults, and prepare the gruesome scene, after all this, kanon and shannon leave. the first twilight is done.
the next morning, the most gruesome scene in all umineko is discovered. jessica remembers how it's said that a person said to be beatrice came yesterday, she is obviously the prime suspect in all of this, so she along with kanon and gohda runs toward the guest room she's supossed to stay. gengi and shannon also leave, "to see if kinzo is well" that's their excuse.
after jessica and other find the note, and gohda leaves kanon and jessica alone, they both are in jessica's room, shannon and gengi enters, and she kills both of them, gengi paints the magic circle, to confuse everyone, they take kanon's corpse and disposes it in a hidden place.
rosa is extremely suspicious of the servants so she kicks them out of the parlor. in the kitchen, they start to talk about how suspicious rosa is, taking in command everyone, she's in the safest place if she's the culprit. so they plan a to fool her to see her reaction of this.
nanjo and kumasawa are said to be the the victims, and their corpses dissapear, although they were only hiding somewhere else.
as usual she seems completely aggressive and doesn't goes as smoothly as they thought so they, incluiding george leaves.
from this point onwards things are so confusing, and can't find an answer to this. sorry

Spoiler for ep 3:

This is the ep where i started to weave this theory and if you go several pages back, you will find a post where i tried to explain some things but it seems nobody cared about it. This episode is very interesting and we finally see kyrie move around instead of dying in the first twilight.
Well now back to the topic, the first move starts with maria being isolated, and she encounters with beatrice, maria is happy about this but can't forget about how her rose broke, so beatrice fixes it, first maria closes her eyes, then while this, shannon takes the candy wrap, attaches it to a healthy rose, cuts the broken one and moves the healthy one to the space the other occupied, when maria opens her eyes, she believes betrice fixed it with magic. Maria is excited and beatrice gives her the letter and orders her to open it after they dinner, when everyone is gathered.
this causes a grat conmotion the dinner finishes and the adults talk begins and it's left undisturbed until 6 am, the cousins retire to the guest house and they play some games, and some time after that, george proposes to shannon, and she accepts right away, but she tells her how difficult this will be,many people will never let the marriage happen, so they need to get rid of them, he agrees and the two of them with kanon take care of the first twilight.
At the moment they enter the mansion, Gengi alredy painted all the magic circles and the 4 victims(excluiding shannon and kanon) of the first twilight are done, so she tells george to find kanon (who's in the chapel) and kill him, close the door with the chapel key that she gives to her, and go to the boiler room using the door from the courtyard and leave it in an envelope then just leave and return to sleep, she will take care of everything else, when george leaves, shannon goes to the parlor and kanon kills her, locks the door with his master key, goes to the chapel, he's killed by george and so, the first twilight is complete.
the next day starts and tis linked closed rooms are discovered, everyone is left bewildered, george can't understand it, shannon appears to be dead, he can say anyting to someone else, he alredy bears the sin of murder, and he's left unable to comprehend this events.
Everyone retreats to the guesthouse and much to kyrie's surprise a miracle happens, eva solves the epitaph, but she doesn't hesitate, for her it's very fortunate to be eva the one that solves it, she knows her past, her hatred to krauss, her greed to obtain the headship.
kyrie calls eva, saying that she is the golden witch, giving her the heads ring, the title of golden witch, she feels completely euphoric, but to all of this be recognized as her, she needs to follow the epitaph's ritual, let everyone else know of her rise.
at this moment she doesn't feel very secure, she hesitates to give an answer, a person it's not able to commit a crime if not by a strong emotion.
she doesn't know what to do, she trembles on the thinking of taking the life of her own brothers and sister, being that her only obstacle to acomplish her dreams, but in the end she yields, she makes hideyoshi forge an alibi to her, saying that she needs fresh air, and finds rosa and maria alone, and cold-bloodedly murders her by pushing her to the fence and pierce her skull, maria, witnessing this cruel scene begins to cry to the top of her lungs, and eva strangles her in an attempt to silence her and returns to her room, the second twilight is done.
kyrie calls eva once more, it's obvious what decision eva has taken, so kyrie tells her the next step, she says that she will make kyrie, rudolf and another person go to the mansion, and they will become the next victims, rudolf would be the 4th twilight, the x person the 5th and kyrie the 6th, eva starts to fake an illness so she can be left alone and be possible to her to slip to the mansion and kill them.
kyrie finds the cigarrette butt as proof to make him go with her an interrogate hideyoshi, and the 3 trips to the mansion for food, a random excuse, eva sees hideyoshi and rules him out of the killing list, after some time, eva tries to snipe them, trying to avoid being seen by hideyoshi, the 3 of them part ways, eva finds rudolf first, and she kills him, a headshot, even though she is using .410 shells, this is an instant death, kyrie and hideyoshi hearing the shot, runs to the source of it, kyrie sees eva and it's shot in the stomach, she falls but is still alive, and at the last hideyoshi sees eva with a smoking gun and two bodies in the ground, he walks towards her, she can't bear the stare of her husband, even less to the thought of killing him, he asks her about all this, he can't believe it, he talks to her, give some punches try to see a way this is possible... and then kyrie makes her move, she grabs the gun from rudolf and shoots hideyoshi... the bullet goes straight through his heart at such a short distance, it's an instant kill... eva's heart break, she doesn't see kyrie's gun, she is left without words, without thinking, she runs to the guest house to find nanjo.
meanwhile, kyrie stands, she presses her wound with a hand, while with the other she carries the two guns and throws them away, she takes 3 stakes, one for rudolf's head, the other to hideyoshi's chest, and the last, after properly sterilazing it, drives it through her stomach, she lies in the corridor... and the 4th through 6th twilights are done.
for everyone else, eva's desperate state seems strange, she urges everyone to go and help hideyoshi at the mansion. when they arrive there, eva can't understand how it happenned, how the stakes pierced the wounds of the bodies and the dissapearance of the guns, but she remains silent, she doesn't want to be discovered.
after they all leave, eva's still in a shock, she doesn't want to continue any of this, and holes up in her room, mourning the death of her husband, meanwhile, kyrie has obtained the most powerful alibi... she's dead.
george still thinks of shannon, he needs to see her corpse with his own eyes to believe it, so he asks nanjo his help, he needs to see her one more time but to don't be discovered going to the mansion, he needs to leave by the window, the strong winds will catch the attention of someone so he needs him to close the window after he jumps, he understands the young man's heart and agrees.
kyrie uses some bandages and controls her bleeding, the mansion is empty and she's free to roam as much as she wants.
kyrie go to the guesthouse, and silently waits to the perfect time, and strikes by stangulating krauss and natsuhi, they don't emit any sound, nobody hears anything.
she drags the corpses and leaves them at the arbor, she places the stakes and the 7th and 8th twilight are done.
in the arbor, kyrie sees george running towards the mansion, and follows him, he enters the parlor and sees shannon's corpse, he cries and hugs the dead body with all his strength, he is so absorbed in this that he don't sees kyrie enter, she shoots him right into the chest and dies, she writes "07151129" in th door, and thinking on how george's dissappearance will became obvious and eva's reaction to this, she opens the wound once more, and drives the stake to her stomach again.
just like predicted, the survivors arrive to the mansion, they see the number and takes not much attention to kyrie, they enter and eva's heart suffers another shock, she founds her own son dead, her heart can no longer tolerate it, jessica thinks of eva as the culprit and tries to take the gun from her but it's shot and the flare blinds jessica, eva leaves with a broken heart and battler follows her, nanjo takes care of jessica and when he leaves the room, is out of words when he sees kyrie standing, with a gun pointing at him, she does not hesitate and kills him.
at this point, the only persons left are a blinded jessica incapable of murdering someone, battler and eva, there's no more need for kyrie to risk being discovered and so, she commits suicide.
battler and eva find nanjo's corpse, they both know that jessica was incapable of this, and they know of their own innocence, so eva thinks of battler as the one that manipulated her, the mastermind of this murders and shoots him.
Eva thinks she has avenged her husband and son, leaves the mansion and enters the forest, as rosa has said earlier she finds kuwadorian, and faints from extreme exhaustation.
At the end, the boiler explodes, devouring the mansion and everything around it, and so, the ep 3 curtain falls.

Spoiler for ep 4:

this episode it's big, so for now let's forget about 1998 and explain the gameboard first.
the gameboard starts with the family conference, kyrie corners krauss and natsuhi, they aren't left with many things to do. After the return from kinzo's study, they say he's in a terrible condition and can't assist, nobody believes them and they fell like there won't pass much time until they force their way into kinzo's study, but at this moment kyrie suggests something, everyone will believe kinzo's alive and the sucessor will be determined... why don't use the cousins?, afterall the one that becames the head, his son will automatically become the next sucessor, so they can put them to test and see who of the 4 are more suitable. To define this, they need to see the cousins true colors, how they make decisions in situations were they put their lives in the line, so she suggests to fool the cousins, make them believe kinzo went mad and started to kill everyone according to the epitaph in an attempt to revive the golden witch.
krauss and natsuhi are left with no more choices, and they agree to this, and so everyone else does too. this plan involves a living kinzo, so i guess we can say that the act to agree of this terms is the same as recognizing kinzo's isn't it?
now they take their plan into action, ghoda and kumasawa are choosen to tell the news to the cousins, how kinzo supposedly killed 6 people and imprisoned everyone else.
after this the phone rings, it's krauss and else, they support the claims of ghoda and kumasawa, and after a short intermission, they are said about the tests, but first they need to lock ghoda and kumasawa in the garden shed, something that they where told beforehand.
while they do this trip, kyrie and the others prepare the first twilight, so if anyone enters the dinner room, the "corpses" are presesnt just like how the story goes, after fisnishing this, everyone except kanon and shannon retire to the 3rd floor or whatever far place, to avoid being seen by the cousins, but after everyone leaves, kanon and shanno kill everyone else, using a shotgun and some 12 gauge shells, they destroy the faces of everyone as how i's said, only leaving gengi alive.
after everyone returns, jessica and george are told of their test locations, and without hesitation they move to the places.
in the arbor george finds shannon, and without hesitation, shannon shoots george in the head.
meanwhile, jessica enters her own room, and to her surprise, finds kanon inside, he gives her the envelope , and inside this there's a letter " to obtain 2 sacrifice one" she gives her answer and after all this, kanon tells the truth to jessica, how everyone is playing this charade to decide the succesor, as proof to this claim, gengi enters, then he asks to cooperate with this, but jessica it's reluctant, although this, kanon is after some words able to make her cooperate, he leaves after this, he says he needs to report her answer and that gengi will tell her what to do.
kanon runs to the garden shed, and then ghoda opens the shed,but they are shot in the head and die. kanon hangs them and after closing the shed, leaving the key in ghoda's pocket, he hides in the bottom of the shed and kills himself... he becomes the 9th victim
after jessica makes her call to battler, gengi shoots her and just like she said, she dies with half her head destroyed.
shannon returs where everyone else is, she reports the answers of jessica and george, and so kyrie calls battler, tells him about their incredible escape, and how everyone else died, and at last, she dies... or really not, she just goes with this charade.
after this shannon calls, she says she is beatrice and tells maria and battler their test locations.
shannon dresses as beatrice and takes battler's test, she questions him about his sin but he isn't really aware of it, let down, shannon returns, along with kyrie kills everyone else, and posing as beatrice, injects a lethal dose of rosa's sedatives,then she kills kyrie and to finish everything... she stands in front of the well they supposedly escaped from, sliding a hand between the bars, said to be 20 centimetres apart from each other, and with the gun, also inside this gaps, pointing her head, she pulls the trigger, the force makes her fall into the ground and the gun falls into the well, from this point, everyone but battler is dead.
battler wanders around the island, he can't believe what happened, he cries, he shouts in wrath, he drinks, but that doesn't change anything, everyone else is dead, just the way everyone told him the things would be, he didn't make a throughout search of the garden shed so he didn't find kanon's corpse inside, and at midnight, the boiler explodes, and the 4th game ends.
now, for the 1998 scenes, the first part consists of ange reading maria's diary, it's said that the one who wrote the bottle letters is the same that wrote maria's diary, so i guess that this makes maria's diary a not very reliable source of what she really felt, beatrice is said to be in very good terms with maria, so she could have known about all that happened around maria's life, about sakutarou and the like, so not everything need to be false, but still, is probable that sakutarou's dead is false, with this you can explain why sakutarou appears in ep 6.
the other part of the scenes shows us about ange's life and her struggle to find the truth. I don't think there's really a need to explain this, as things happened just the way they are showed.

Spoiler for another thoughts:

i find the existance of 2 different bottles really weird, it may be that like wargrave, the culprit wants everyone in the world to acknowledge his genius but don't gives the ansewer right away like he, she sets this two bottles as possible scenarios that the murderer could have commited, leaving it possible for them to know if they are intelligent enough.
another way could be that shannon and kanon got the same idea and having no idea that the other was doing the same, they threw a bottle each one, but this seems very unlikely.
The golden truth seems to be very confusing to many people, i like to think this refers to the truth of rokkenjima, this way we can think why sometimes it's stronger or weaker than red, the one sentence battler says at the end of episode 5 is an example, this truth rules over all the series but now if we say something like "erika does not exist in the gameboard" since this is true in the real rokkenjima, it is not in episode 5-6 and doesn't have any influence in the games.
I haven't read ep 6 but i've read several spoilers and here are some thoughts:
the meaning of the "love tests" are just shanon and kanon manipulating jessica and george to commit crimes, afterall, furfur & zepar = shanon & kanon seems to be something that the entire fanbase coincide, so then if this true doesn't that mean that shanon and kanon are the ones directing all of this?
the logic error seems to be something pretty twisted, and you are giving too many thoughts to this, but there's really a logical answer to this? afterall, this is a logic error, i may have been misunderstanding something but doesnt that mean that there's no logic in what happened? it oculd be that battler misunderstood or ignored something in the mystery but it isn't really essential to the murders.
and for last, the red text that seems to drive everyone into thinking in shkanon, i think seagullscrazy alredy said this but it's possible that it is just that the two sentences have two different contexts, the first one talks about the episodes 5-6 while the other about the true rokkenjima.

What do you think everyone?

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by Oliver

The murderer killed Eva and Hideyoshi already, but they were in a different room - the one painted up, which Genji and Kanon did not notice being painted up because it's further down the corridor - from three meters away sideways, the paint can't be that apparent on a dark wooden door. The murderer was probably caught painting and needed to quickly hide.

Once Genji and Kanon leave, the murderer emerges from one of the three possible guest rooms, turns off the TV and lights if that was the room Genji and Kanon tried first, and leaves or hides again, moving the letter to the correct room door. When everyone returns, the room with the letter next to it is obviously The One, reinforced by the seal on the door, so nobody notices they were one room off.

I suspect that this is the loophole that allows to solve this locked room in a natural way, one that does not involve deliberately creating it by fixing the chain or magneting it closed.

Wait, I don't get it °°;

How does that solve the closed room problem? I mean... the room where Genji tried to enter was locked with the chainlock right? So how did the murderer manage to turn off the TV and the lights? Actually... who set the chainlock it in the first place, if Eva and Hideyoshi weren't there?

If it was the murderer himself, then how was the other room closed off?

[Kylon99]

Originally Posted by Judoh

Of course Beatrice is inactive we already knew that. The way I see it is if I look at it like chess is that she escaped "check" in episode 3, went "on the attack" to the human side in 4, and lost authority over her own piece at the end of 4 when Battler killed her.

I thought that the meta world Beatrice also reflected the situation on the game board for EP5 and 6.

In EP5, she was comatose so the plan started but ran aground right away. First whoever was in the Beatrice faction couldn't get 6 people in the mansion, so had to resort to going for 5 in the guest house. Then the murderer couldn't finish them off before morning came. And then finally due to the disruption by the detective I thought that after Hideyoshi was murdered there wouldn't be any more, or at least not enough for 11. (Despite what Ryukishi said about the murders continuing, I believe he meant that we would know if Erika didn't and wouldn't have further interfered.)

In EP6, I'm actually thinking it was Battler who was put in charge of the First Twilight fakery. It might have been the Beatrice faction but they seemed to go out of their way to avoid him, (i.e. EP5). So the Beatrice faction ideas may have been taken over by Battler who may have even figured out what he needed to know as soon as he landed on the island...

[theacefrehley]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

Wait, I don't get it °°;

How does that solve the closed room problem? I mean... the room where Genji tried to enter was locked with the chainlock right? So how did the murderer manage to turn off the TV and the lights? Actually... who set the chainlock it in the first place, if Eva and Hideyoshi weren't there?

If it was the murderer himself, then how was the other room closed off?

I guess he means the murderer managed to turn off things and set/unset chainlock because he was inside the first room

But for it to work he'd have to be hidden inside the second room, too, with the corpses, or Eva/Hideyoshi would have to set the chainlock before dying

[Jan-Poo]

That's what I'm pointing out, two rooms make things even harder to explain because you have two closed rooms instead of one. So I'm wondering how the theory of the two rooms helps explaining the chainlock.

I can only see how it can help explaining the symbol painted on the door, but only that.

[TkMacintosh]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

That's what I'm pointing out, two rooms make things even harder to explain because you have two closed rooms instead of one. So I'm wondering how the theory of the two rooms helps explaining the chainlock.

I can only see how it can help explaining the symbol painted on the door, but only that.

I can't quiet remember, but was the chain set before or after Eva and Hideyoshi were killed?

If it was AFTER, then the murderer could've made the room quiet and gone to the first room to make it look like Eva and Hideyoshi were in that room, then when Kanon and Genji left, the murderer moved to the real room, set the chain and hid him/herself under the bed/in the closet/where ever he/she was...

If the chain was set BEFORE they were killed, then I'm just spewing BS and don't know what I'm talking about :x

[Jan-Poo]

But that means the culprit is inside the room of the crime scene at the time they break in, and then how is it different from the usual explanation with just one room?

[SeagullCrazy]

Originally Posted by TkMacintosh

I can't quiet remember, but was the chain set before or after Eva and Hideyoshi were killed?

Both. That's why it was a closed room, right?

I think this is basically what he's saying happened:

Hideyoshi sets the chain
Culprit breaks in room #1 by cutting the chain
Culprit kills Eva and Hideyoshi
Culprit goes back to the hallway
Culprit enters room #2
Culprit makes room #2 look like Eva and Hideyoshi are in it
Kanon and Genji arrive at room #2
Kanon and Genji leave
Culprit leaves room #2
Culprit paints the magic circle on room #1
Culprit hides inside room #1 and fixes the chain
Kanon cuts the chain on room #1
Culprit leaves room #1 at a later time

I don't see any problems with this, considering it explains the magic circle AND why Genji was able to pull the chain all the way back (you would think a repaired chain wouldn't be so sturdy), while Kanon had an easier time cutting it than he thought. Genji pulled the non-cut chain of room #2, and Kanon cut the repaired chain of room#1.

I like this a lot.

[Jan-Poo]

That's not what Oliver said! At the very least he stated that the magic circle existed already!

and his final comment was

I suspect that this is the loophole that allows to solve this locked room in a natural way, one that does not involve deliberately creating it by fixing the chain or magneting it closed.

[rogerpepitone]

I don't think that there are so many doors that Kanon would get confused. He's most likely thinking "first door on the left" or somesuch. I've seen stories where it was believable, but they involved rows of more things that were closer together (phone booths, mailboxes).

And the big problem is, it doesn't explain things much better than the one-room answer.

[SeagullCrazy]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

That's not what Oliver said! At the very least he stated that the magic circle existed already!

and his final comment was

Oh.

Well, I think a magic circle would draw attention to room #1, right?

EDIT: Oh, I see. So if the circle was drawn before he entered room #2, and the culprit stayed in room #2 then there's a problem with the chain in room #1.

As for that other comment.... I don't know how it solves the chain.

[Judoh]

Originally Posted by Kylon99

I thought that the meta world Beatrice also reflected the situation on the game board for EP5 and 6.

Yeah she does that's what I was saying. After Battler killed her she lost authority over her piece and the stories aren't written the way she would write them.

And Meta Beatrice DID die. Bernkastel says she's dead in epiosde 5. The only reason Meta Beatrice is still there in episode 5 is because Lambdadelta made that shackle rule.

Originally Posted by Kylon99

In EP6, I'm actually thinking it was Battler who was put in charge of the First Twilight fakery. It might have been the Beatrice faction but they seemed to go out of their way to avoid him, (i.e. EP5). So the Beatrice faction ideas may have been taken over by Battler who may have even figured out what he needed to know as soon as he landed on the island...

To be honest I'm not completely bought on all the first twilights being faked. Let alone Battler being involved in the fakery because that would imply he has some sort of meta knowledge about his plan to be "rescued" by one of the people faking their deaths. You also have to get around the not having a pulse thing and I don't want to use Dlanor's suggestion of being in an insulin coma.

[Kylon99]

Originally Posted by Judoh

And Meta Beatrice DID die. Bernkastel says she's dead in epiosde 5. The only reason Meta Beatrice is still there in episode 5 is because Lambdadelta made that shackle rule.

You know, if Lambdadelta didn't do that, I wonder if that would've meant that none of the murders would've occured (as the first twilight fakery wouldn't happen, nor would the bomb, and the rest of the chain of events wouldn't come about, etc.) Essentially the mastermind/culprit would've given up.

Makes you wonder, if Lambdadelta represents someone else (George and/or Sayo as has been postulated), then if that mean that they forced the Beatrice faction to continue on despite giving up...

Originally Posted by Judoh

To be honest I'm not completely bought on all the first twilights being faked. Let alone Battler being involved in the fakery because that would imply he has some sort of meta knowledge about his plan to be "rescued" by one of the people faking their deaths. You also have to get around the not having a pulse thing and I don't want to use Dlanor's suggestion of being in an insulin coma.

Well, we know EP5 and 6 has to be faked as given by the red. Whether Battler is involved is just a theory based on the idea that the meta matches the gameboard...

EP6 Battler is already behaving in a rather suspicious manner, I would say. The whole setting up a distraction and hiding in the closet seems to have been justified by meta-knowledge. But up until EP5 I was dismissing culprit behaviors that require meta-knowledge. Like for example setting the clock to a different time in order to maintain the red about the knock being on midnight.

If he didn't do it with meta-knowledge (i.e. knowing that Erika would be coming), why would he have hid himself? Maybe EP6 is just supposed to be poorly constructed after all. バトラ無能 / Battler is Useless after all. 8)

[Judoh]

Originally Posted by Kylon99

Well, we know EP5 and 6 has to be faked as given by the red. Whether Battler is involved is just a theory based on the idea that the meta matches the gameboard...

Nah... for episode 5 at least that's just Ronove's theory. Jan-poo pointed this out before, but you can explain that situation with the guestroom in episode 5 away by simply saying they were killed in a different room. Erika never saw the bodies.

I can only imagine maybe two people faking to be consistent with episode 1. Episode 2 I just can't see it because they were dead when they were discovered according to the red.

Episode 4 is different though...

[Judoh]

I've been thinking that there are 7 missing people in episode 5 instead of 5 missing people. It's based on the things Erika and Battler said about the epitaph about there needing to be 13 or 11 sacrifices. I think that conversation affected the death count in episode 5. Maybe the murderers didn't know it could be interpreted that way before then. So It kind of looks like (at least to me) that that's why the murders are messed up. We have Virgilia saying there are 5 sacrifices on the first twilight instead of 6 and 1 person was killed on the 2nd twilight instead of two.

[Kylon99]

Originally Posted by Judoh

Nah... for episode 5 at least that's just Ronove's theory. Jan-poo pointed this out before, but you can explain that situation with the guestroom in episode 5 away by simply saying they were killed in a different room. Erika never saw the bodies.

What was that theory? I think I missed it. I thought the red about the people not being moved after they were killed was proof that they were faking at 7am (or 8am, forgot the time exactly) since their 'bodies' went missing after 7am...

Originally Posted by Judoh

I can only imagine maybe two people faking to be consistent with episode 1. Episode 2 I just can't see it because they were dead when they were discovered according to the red.

Episode 4 is different though...

Yah, there's no guarantee that anyone was faking in any of EP1-4, but it's just a theory of mine. The one thing the fakery does do is it allows weaker people to commit the murders more easily, although not necessarily move the bodies. For example it's hard to imagine Kumasawa, Maria, or even Shannon defeating say Eva, Rosa or Kyrie all the time and consistently, but if they were pretending to be dead then it's very trivial...

The other clue that some fakery is going on is that Nanjo is always spared in the first twilight throughout all episodes. After 6 episodes... what is the probability that Nanjo isn't chosen in the first 6 deaths?

EDIT: I worked out the probabilities. 'C' stands for Choose ... i.e. 18 Choose 6. There's a formula for that here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Binomia...torial_formula

probability of choosing Nanjo in one game
= (17C5 * 1C1) / 18C6
= 6188 * 1 / 18564
= 1/3

probability of not choosing Nanjo in one game
= 1 - 1/3
= 2/3

probability of not choosing Nanjo after 6 games
= 2/3 ^ 6
= 0.08779149519890260631001371742112
= 8.78% or so

probability of not choosing any one person after 6 games
= 2/3 ^ 5
= 0.13168724279835390946502057613169
= 13.17% or so

Probabilities are interesting, but they don't constitute proof. 8)

[Judoh]

Originally Posted by Kylon99

What was that theory? I think I missed it. I thought the red about the people not being moved after they were killed was proof that they were faking at 7am (or 8am, forgot the time exactly) since their 'bodies' went missing after 7am...

They were never moved. They just died in a different room and everyone lied to Erika about where they were discovered. He proposed this a long time ago.

[Kylon99]

Originally Posted by Judoh

They were never moved. They just died in a different room and everyone lied to Erika about where they were discovered. He proposed this a long time ago.

That can work for excluding fakery, but what about the red text:

The death of the four in the cousins' room has been proclaimed with the red text!!
The deaths of the four people in the cousins' room have been proclaimed with the red truth!! Furthermore, those corpses were witnessed by a large number of people!! Furthermore, it's already been proclaimed in red that an autopsy would not be mistaken for any of those corpses...!!

The above may not have been translated very well. Not sure if that was from EP5's english patch or not...

Battler's way of getting around the idea that the the people died in the cousin's room was that Lambdadelta indicated that their current session takes place at 24:00 of the second day.

One way of explaining it is that the 'death of the four in the cousin's room' indicates the 'idea' of four dead people in the cousin's room rather than stating that the four people died in that room. But that's a rather nasty twist to the red...

EDIT: Ahh.. umineco.info to the rescue:

いとこ部屋の4人の死亡は赤き真実で宣告されている！！
いとこ部屋の4人の死亡は赤き真実で宣告されている！！　そしてその遺体は大勢が確認していますッ！！　そ して全ての死体は検死を誤らないとすでに赤き真実で宣言済みです…！！

Looks like a reasonable translation. The original Japanese also feels twisted if we have to think of the 4 people as having died in another room though.