2016-07-17, 14:33 | Link #61 |
Unleashing the Homu-Rage
Join Date: Apr 2010
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Considering fact that the contest specifically points alternate world "fantasy", I wonder if they also banned other forms of alternate world travel, which, quite frankly, I would like to see more of, and you can do lots of interesting things with. The example that comes to mind is the 2000 anime Now and Then, Here and There, which involved transporting the protagonist to a post apocalyptic "crapsack world".
In fact, on a semi-related not, I am writing (off and on, anyway) a Now and Then, Here and There/Gate crossover- similar plot and themes (military, large scale contact between alternate worlds) to Gate, but with the removal of the harem themes, and will have the other-worlders pose an actual threat, at least in a guerilla war, if not in direct combat. |
2016-07-20, 15:28 | Link #62 | ||
In a Box
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Somewhere on the west coast
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VRMMOs are a really interesting topic. The recent augmented reality craze that's starting with Pokemon Go shows that there's a huge potential for story telling and interesting topics. EVE Online also shows us how there could be really interesting twists and drama just from game mechanics and guild drama alone, but most stories that try their hands at this genre fail to do anything really interesting with it.
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2016-07-20, 15:52 | Link #63 | |
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Join Date: Feb 2014
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But the IS clones of saijaku bahamut and masou gakuen aren't experiencing the same success either. So far, the only recent breakout lns are all isekai like ngnl, konosuba, overlord, and rezero. While danmachi isn't isekai, it's like a better written SAO pre- alicization. Oregairu, Saenai heroine and sukasuka probably made it because they are well written. Is there anything else I'm missing with hits from the recent years? |
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2016-07-20, 19:42 | Link #65 | |
Princess or Plunderer?
Join Date: May 2009
Location: the Philippines
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It's as if there's no middle ground.
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2016-07-21, 09:33 | Link #66 |
Sekiroad-Idols Sing Twice
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Well, being dropped into a world where you don't know your left from right has a tendency to land you in a lot of shit, on top of their own character flaws not doing them any favors. But they could also stand to level them up eventually before they beat a dead horse. Pun intended
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2016-07-21, 10:12 | Link #67 |
Princess or Plunderer?
Join Date: May 2009
Location: the Philippines
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Thing is, it was never a problem when Aoi Blink or El Hazard showed up.
The problem is more about the overall quality of the story and not necessarily whether the story is fellating the otherworldliness of the protagonist.
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2016-07-23, 01:03 | Link #69 |
Princess or Plunderer?
Join Date: May 2009
Location: the Philippines
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Just pointing out that darker doesn't automatically mean better, and that is the misconception some production committees, project financiers, and even viewers often commit. My biggest gripe here is that some people use their "appreciation" of grim stories to justify their superiority complex over shows that are less gloomy ("moeshit" in their own words).
Well, this is out on a slight tangent, but I just want to stamp my point on Re:Zero, among other shows.
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2016-07-23, 02:42 | Link #70 |
RUN, YOU FOOLS!
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Formerly Iwakawa base and Chaldea. Now Teyvat, the Astral Express & the Outpost
Age: 44
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You makes it sound like Re:Zero's sole selling point is that it is darker and edgier. Which is wrong. Re:Zero is appreciated for taking cliche from the isekai genre and subverting it in a more logical and, arguably, realistic direction. Subaru is a bumbling otaku. This means that, ie, he is not going to suddenly gain charisma and delivers passionate speeches that will sway the "medieval screwheads" (to quote Ash Williams from Army of Darkness), and he actually made a fool of himself in the 13th episode in front of the Court. His liberal values from the 21st century is not going to win the people over. And that is just an example.
If that kind of direction is repulsive to you, you still have Konosuba who is to Isekai genre what Slayers was to high fantasy. Subversive, but in the more comedic direction. |
2016-07-23, 04:52 | Link #71 | |
Princess or Plunderer?
Join Date: May 2009
Location: the Philippines
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Being a subversion isn't exactly my gripe with Re:Zero. To those who know me, I have been a staunch anti-despair anime fan. I have made some sour remarks on Muv-Luv, Danganronpa and RWBY's Volume 3 finale, and I found Urobuchi's take on the Nasuverse (Fate/Zero) and the magical girl concept (PMMM) as interesting but eventually boring.
Simply put, I do not understand why people can appreciate a show that makes you feel sad. That said, I also did not like how Re:Zero has been called a "more realistic" take on the isekai genre and I do not appreciate its attempt to subvert certain conventions in that genre. I seriously don't fucking care about those tropes, and being a subversion of some trope has been overdone lately, to the point that it could be just as overdone as the stories that follow genre conventions to the letter. Quote:
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2016-07-23, 05:50 | Link #72 | ||||
sleepyhead
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Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: event horizon
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There's also been quite a few of these shows with "edgy" themes, where it's not really a complex drama, it's dark but also sunshine and roses often enough, and it has interesting but not really complicated or philosophical themes mostly reliant on the idiotic behavior of either the protagonist or everyone around him. We might as well start a new "edgelord" genre for them, much like we have souls games now due to demon souls, dark souls and so on in games. Quote:
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Also, there's very little merit to calling "X subverting Y" since just like a cheap magic trick it only works once. You're saying it like all a series needs to do is shit on another one to get 100 points. Re:zero is good example, for all everyone might be up in arms in defending poor idiotic Subaru, the series could replace Subaru and the world and premise would still hold it up (unlike something like Grimgar where the characters are also "weak" but can't be replaced). On the other hand you would have a much weaker show if you kept Subaru and replaced everything else—even if you kept the death-reset premise.
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2016-07-23, 07:13 | Link #73 | |||||
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Yes, it's a very well-balanced and creative fantasy/sci-fi "traveling to another world" story. And in my opinion, it's part of a crop of strong 90s fantasy anime (alongside shows like Escaflowne, Magic Knight Rayearth, and The Slayers). For whatever reason, modern anime doesn't make fantasy anime like they used to. My best educated guess is that the modern LN style of fantasy has almost completely dominated the market, squeezing out the sort of fantasy anime you saw in the 90s. Sometimes a (sub)genre really needs a good kick in the pants just to break it out of its monotony and complacency. Sometimes it's good for heavily used tropes to be deconstructed and/or subverted in order to challenge creators to try something different for a change. This short story contest ban clearly suggests a (sub)genre in need of change and diversification. Maybe Re:Zero can "combo break" modern isekai stories enough to allow a new El Hazard type of show to arise. I'd certainly love to see it. Quote:
Spoiler for El Hazard and Escaflowne comparisons:
Re:Zero gets us closer to these excellent 90s fantasy shows than any other isekai story I've seen recently. And some of us are simply sick and tired of isekai stories that "fellate the otherworldliness of the protagonist". Quote:
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I generally don't like shows that make me feel sad. But I do like shows where the main protagonist is truly challenged. Because strong challenges tend to bring greater intensity, up the stakes, increase the sense of drama and suspense. Perhaps more importantly, strong challenges show what a character is made of. Quote:
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2016-07-23, 08:06 | Link #74 | ||
Princess or Plunderer?
Join Date: May 2009
Location: the Philippines
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And yeah, still on a tangent. Anyone, feel free to steer us back.
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2016-07-23, 08:55 | Link #75 | |
Index III was a mistake
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Sydney, Australia
Age: 32
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Re: Zero, Grimgar, Overlord, Konosuba = GOOD. Loser in real world who gets transported/reincarnated to/in another world as a badass is getting tiring at the moment. Though there's nothing technically wrong with it; its about the volume of similar story beginnings. There, back on track.
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2016-07-23, 09:21 | Link #76 |
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Well, since Marcus was interested in hearing these points, I'll share them here. I'm going to put this in spoiler space both to save space, and also for the benefit of those who aren't fully caught up on Re:Zero (or haven't watched it at all yet).
Spoiler for Reply to felix on Re:Zero/Subaru:
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Last edited by Triple_R; 2016-07-23 at 09:33. |
2016-07-23, 11:44 | Link #78 | |
Sekiroad-Idols Sing Twice
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2016-07-23, 12:08 | Link #79 | |
sleepyhead
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Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: event horizon
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. Here's my problem the currently trendy "I don't like characters that are good at what they do" angle. It feels like its people noticing there's a problem, but pointing the finger (on mass) at the completely wrong thing. If we discount the "surprise" endings and satires, which are always fun, these stories can only really go in a few combinations...
(writing the list took a bit more space then I intended but ohwell) Okey so... It all boils down to case 1 or 2, since 3 and 6 are just 1 & 2, and 4 & 7 are too different to matter. If we're looking at it from purely the perspective of "too powerfull" you're basically looking at two sides of the same coin. You basically have the World on one side, and the Protagonist on the other. Yes they're like apples and oranges but while I may have a preference for either apples or oranges they're not as different as water and fine wine (or whatever expensive alcohol you like). If either case 1 or case 2 is bad, it's because they're bad at what they try to achieve, either world building or character deconstruction, whichever you're preferred poison is. They're fundamentally not bad due to the formula, the formula is just preference. And you can't blame a series going for character deconstruction for shit world building or a series going for world deconstruction for having characters that can actually achieve the world shattering events required to deconstruct the world. It's like complaining why salt isn't sweet or sugar salty. It pains me to see people complain that a show is bad because the character was "too powerful" when really the problem is the world wasn't interesting enough to support that character. Having a more bland character in a boring world is not gonna suddenly make it any better. If a character being too powerful would be an instant fail then shows like Dragon Ball, One Punch Man, Guren Lagann, etc would have never been enjoyable. Another divergent problem I see is that, People seem to take this to the logical next step of "I don't like characters that are excellent at something." To give a recent example, in the series Alderamin on the Sky the main character, which is from the words of the story itself foreshadowed to become a great general, is apparently in the opinion of a many devoid of the right to be one. Because obviously if he has achievement and doesn't have "MENTAL problems" (war PTSD or whatever) it's never gonna be good. God forbid the heroes of the story be actual you know "heroes." I know I'm repeating myself but I want to emphasize as bluntly as possible: a LOT of people have a apparently very strong opinion that Mental/Psychological Problems are some kind of "key" feature of good characterization. It's extremely silly and unhealthy.
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2016-07-27, 12:59 | Link #80 | ||||
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SAO's Kirito, Mahouka's Tatsuya, Aldnoah.Zero's Inaho, and (from what I've heard) No Game No Life's Sora. Each of these four anime shows have a strong fanbase, and each of these four anime shows were heavily talked about, among the most popular anime shows around when they aired. After this stretch of hyper-competent male leads, maybe a lot of anime fans have a hunger for more flawed and more struggling and more emotionally colorful/expressive characters. Sometimes the most popular characters of today are a response to too much of a certain type of character in the very recent past. If you don't like current trends, then give it time - In a couple years, you may have some lead characters that are all responses to Re:Zero's Subaru. Quote:
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PTSD is a real thing. A very serious real thing. Just doing some read-ups on Vietnam war veterans should make that abundantly clear. Many people like characters and stories that feel authentic. We like characters that feel human, warts and all. We often like to see characters handle horrible difficulties the way that we ourselves would likely handle them - Which is generally not with silky smooth hyper-competency. If a character witnesses numerous loved ones die, for example, I want to see some evidence that s/he's been hurt and bereaved by that. I don't want to see someone that simply soldiers on like some sort of robot, showing little evidence of feelings of loss or despair. Of course this varies depending on what the main character is put through. The less severe the situation, the less warranted heavy duty mental/psychological problems are. But if a main character is put through a truly hellish situation, than I want to see a human response to that, not one that would even make Star Trek's Spock blush. And I get the sense that I'm not alone here. A lot of this comes down to "humans vs. heroes". I like watching heroes myself sometimes, as I'm a big fan of superheroes. But sometimes it's emotionally engaging to see a very human character struggle against difficult odds. And even with very heroic characters, a sense of human vulnerability (especially at a psychological/emotional level) can make them more relatable.
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