Gundam Seed/Seed Destiny General Discussion Thread

[LightMaster]

Originally Posted by Rising Dragon

It's still not an official name designation for its system, and as far as I can tell it never HAS had an official designation, unlike the retcon for the Strike Freedom's wings of light.

It's called as such in Official information, It's just as official a designation as "Agni" for Strike's Hyper Impulse Beam Cannon.

You're forgetting the crucial element of combat experience and battle instincts.

Shinn's instincts apparently lend towards the Destiny, it was designed using his combat data. Apparently they came to the conclusion that it'd be prudent with his experience and instinct to arm the Mobile Suit in the way they did.

Well, let's see... with the boomerangs, the Destiny still has to reach over and grab them to use them, so shoulders or back, that's not much of an improvement.

Apparently the designers disagree with you, perhaps grabbing them from under the forearm like that is far more awkward then grabbing them from the shoulders. Especially if you're expected to grab them both at once like Shinn does a couple of times.

the Arondight is overly large when the Excalibur would've sufficed (and hey, you could easily build the same folding mechanism into it as a variant and saved even MORE space).

How is the Arondight overly large, the Destiny throws it around just as easily as Impulse did the Excalibur. And dude, seriously you might as well build a new sword with the idea of folding from the get-go. They figured that out with the Destiny Impulse; and the Arondight is the Excalibur with the folding mechanism- it's part of the same development line.

wing placement on the Destiny gives it a remarkably large profile, making it a bit easier to hit, all things considered.

Dude, if anything; the Destiny Impulses set are larger; especially in comparison to the Impulse body.

Which again has its own pros and cons listed elsewhere. Everything else is just a huge tradeoff of one problem for another.

The Beam Shields literally have no trade off in comparison to the ones on the Impulse version. The only one for the beam cannon is the fact that it is hand fired, and since it's a Long Range Beam Cannon I hardly see the issue. It's not intended for use in a situation where you're going to need to the left arm to fend someone off.

Because that's how he bloody operated with the Impulse.

And apparently they decided that the data meant he'd do even better with the one sword, one cannon approach. Honestly he never once used the Blast Impulse in such a way that two cannons would be required. It's the same for the Anti-Ship Swords, he either combined them into one- or got beat up when he tried to use two separate blades.

Yet the Destiny forces him to switch to one sword, one cannon. And ya know what? Shinn started to suffer in battle after acquiring the Destiny.

Uh, no; he pretty much cuts through fodder far easier then ever before- with as much trouble as you'd expect from a guy in his final upgrade. He only ever has trouble with Athrun and Kira who both have their own final upgrade suits. And tons more experience then him, especially Athrun who has tons more experience and pretty much the exact same basic training...

The Destiny had an over-emphasis on close range combat despite being meant for any range. Giant sword, beam boomerangs (classic melee-suit weaponry in SEED) that double as beam sabers, hand cannons

Nope, it's pretty well got all the ranges covered, Long Range with the Beam Cannon, Mid-Range with the Beam Rifle, Beam Cannon and Beam Boomerangs; and Close with the Beam Saber/Rangs, Anti-Ship Sword, and Hand Cannons.

Yet it only ever uses the giant sword (which proved hilariously ineffective against its two main contenders, the Strike Freedom and Infinite Justice), and the hand cannons (which are in severe danger of getting destroyed when a beam saber would've been better) and it NEVER used the beam saber function of its boomerangs.

Dude, the Destiny was not built for the expressed purpose of fighting the Strike Freedom and Infinite Justice. It was built to utter stomp across the military forces of ZAFT's enemies. Dagger's, Windam's, etc, etc; it did a spectacular job at that, with the Anti-Ship Sword, and boomerangs, and all of it's weapons. How often are the Hand Cannons going to be used against a Beam Saber, once apparently- in a last ditch defensive effort. Honestly the Beam Shields would have worked much better and were in fine position to do it- they pretty much always will be.

Also, it did, once, Infinite Justice defended against them.

And for that matter, the Arondight's bulky length in battle proves to be a hinderance rather than a boon. It is massive, and thus results in that it easily telegraphs its swings, where a beam saber is far more quick and far more mobile.

But the Excalibur would have the same problem, it'd just take up more space when stored.

It had none of the Blast Silhouette's versatility with its missiles and railguns.

Blast was specifically made for Long Range and Fire Support, Destiny wasn't. So yes, there's goes to be a certain, expected, loss in the firepower department.

Lose both and the Destiny lost any range capacity it has, leaving it with only melee-type weaponry. And if it lost the left arm, it lost its heavy cannon--whereas on, say, the Destiny Impulse or the Blast Impulse, this wouldn't have been much of a problem--extra gun, shoulder-mounted cannons, missile launchers...

But...on the Blast Impulse if you lose a cannon you lose the cannon, the missiles and the Beam Javelin stored therein. Likewise with the Blast Impulse you lose the arm, you likely use the ability to fire the corresponding cannon- they have handles just like the Destiny's Cannon. Doubtful that you can have the cannon explode and not have the railguns right next door not get damaged.

Yet the wings of light system would've negated weight issues, wouldn't it? That's what everyone else is saying.

That's dumb, the Destiny would have been able to move at infinity speed if that we're the case. It would only get -slower- from the iteration we saw if they added more weight.

You uh... you do realize that the Destiny's equipment very nearly matched the Destiny Impulse's, right? The majority of its weaponry were still stored on the back of the machine. Sword mounted on back, cannon mounted on back... the boomerangs were still mounted on the arms, just in a slightly different location... and for the most part the profile LOOKED THE FUCKING SAME.

False, the Destiny doesn't look nearly as clusterfuck at the back. Naturally because it has less stored there. What is stored there is folded up to save space and keep out of the way when not in use. Everything looks much larger on the Destiny Impulse, compared to the actual Mobile Suit. The wings go out farther, the Excalibur hangs down further the cannons seem to jut up taller despite being in storage mode.

Ya generally need legs too. And arms. Both of which the Destiny was lacking by the end of its run.

Speaking specifically about when it got called back.

The whole bloody point of having wings is for lift.

The whole point of -real- wings, functioning wings; wings on a plane or on a bird. Everything has to be aerodynamically sound for wings to work as wings, you can't put a set of Delta's on a house an expect it to fly- Freedom has engines in it's wings, that's the point of HiMAT- to get them all pointed in as many varied directions as possible at any one time.

it cannot casually violate the laws of aerodynamics like any GN-Drive mobile suit can. Its wings will create lift no matter what, unless it is located in outer space.

To create lift it'd need to casually violate the laws of aerodynamics with those wings, especially the set that keeps the Beam Cannon stored on it. Totally aerodynamically sound.

[Rising Dragon]

Originally Posted by LightMaster

It's called as such in Official information, It's just as official a designation as "Agni" for Strike's Hyper Impulse Beam Cannon.

Fine, you want to find official documentation then? If so, try to find something a little more supportive than your HiMAT claim.

Originally Posted by LightMaster

Shinn's instincts apparently lend towards the Destiny, it was designed using his combat data. Apparently they came to the conclusion that it'd be prudent with his experience and instinct to arm the Mobile Suit in the way they did.

And that's why he lost all the time using the Destiny, amirite?

Originally Posted by LightMaster

Apparently the designers disagree with you, perhaps grabbing them from under the forearm like that is far more awkward then grabbing them from the shoulders. Especially if you're expected to grab them both at once like Shinn does a couple of times.

Never said it was better. Like I said, trading one issue for another.

Originally Posted by LightMaster

How is the Arondight overly large, the Destiny throws it around just as easily as Impulse did the Excalibur. And dude, seriously you might as well build a new sword with the idea of folding from the get-go. They figured that out with the Destiny Impulse; and the Arondight is the Excalibur with the folding mechanism- it's part of the same development line.

Can you, y'know, stop ignoring points I already made? The overly large size of the Arondight makes it so that the Destiny telegraphs its swings due to how it has to set up the attack. A lighter and smaller weapon, even if just a bit, can result in a faster, harder-to-predict swing--kinda like how Athrun was able to wreck him with just a beam saber against that massive blade.

Sure, it's nasty when an opponent can't deal with it--ask any Destroy unit--but it's meant for specific types of enemies that Shinn just rarely uses it against. In any fight with Athrun, he would've been better off using the beam saber functions of his boomerangs. Instead, he uses big sword, and as a result loses pretty much every battle against him.

Originally Posted by LightMaster

Dude, if anything; the Destiny Impulses set are larger; especially in comparison to the Impulse body.

Not really, actually--there's very little extra movement involved, and it's only associated with the other arm, so there's practically no time lost for the equip and the throw. Try it yourself--reach for your opposite shoulder, then try reaching for your opposite elbow.

Originally Posted by LightMaster

The Beam Shields literally have no trade off in comparison to the ones on the Impulse version. The only one for the beam cannon is the fact that it is hand fired, and since it's a Long Range Beam Cannon I hardly see the issue. It's not intended for use in a situation where you're going to need to the left arm to fend someone off.

Sure, no tradeoff... until someone loses an arm... which the Destiny lost all the time...

Plus, y'know, long range beam cannon mounted on a melee-oriented mobile suit wielded by a guy who just can't think straight when he's mad... can't imagine what kind of problems would occur! I mean, it's not like he could lose a melee fight and lose his left arm, thus preventing him from using the cannon entirely if he gets out of melee range...

Oh wait.

Originally Posted by LightMaster

And apparently they decided that the data meant he'd do even better with the one sword, one cannon approach. Honestly he never once used the Blast Impulse in such a way that two cannons would be required. It's the same for the Anti-Ship Swords, he either combined them into one- or got beat up when he tried to use two separate blades.

Look, if Shinn only needed the one cannon against his opponents, he would've only used one at a time, especially given power constraints--it'd be much less consuming to fire one cannon rather than two... except, y'know, he didn't.

Oh, and for using one sword? Well, remember that time he had to return to the Minerva TO GET A NEW ONE?

Again: Shinn lost all the time against skilled opponents after acquiring the Destiny. Wasn't much of an improvement, was it?

Originally Posted by LightMaster

Uh, no; he pretty much cuts through fodder far easier then ever before- with as much trouble as you'd expect from a guy in his final upgrade. He only ever has trouble with Athrun and Kira who both have their own final upgrade suits. And tons more experience then him, especially Athrun who has tons more experience and pretty much the exact same basic training...

Not gonna touch on the performance of grunts in SEED, we all pretty much agree they were the worst out of ALL the Gundam AUs... 'bout the only grunt group that had an excuse were the Destroy Gundams.

It might be a bit better if the EA, which is still the primary opponent of ZAFT before the finale, had more named aces that Shinn could've fought against to show that he was still a pilot who can overcome other really skilled opponents.

However, the EA in Destiny only had four: Neo, Sting, Auel, and Stella. And Neo was captured, Auel dead at Shinn's hands, Stella dead at Kira's hands, and Sting was put in a Destroy Gundam after it's crippling weakness had already been exposed by Kira.

It leaves the unfortunate problem of the only skilled ace pilot that Shinn fought against and won is Cagalli. And how every other skilled opponent he fought pretty soundly trumped his ass.

Originally Posted by LightMaster

Nope, it's pretty well got all the ranges covered, Long Range with the Beam Cannon, Mid-Range with the Beam Rifle, Beam Cannon and Beam Boomerangs; and Close with the Beam Saber/Rangs, Anti-Ship Sword, and Hand Cannons.

For all the good long and mid-range did him. Hell, Shinn was using the cannon as a close-range weapon against Kira, and look how that turned out.

Originally Posted by LightMaster

Dude, the Destiny was not built for the expressed purpose of fighting the Strike Freedom and Infinite Justice. It was built to utter stomp across the military forces of ZAFT's enemies. Dagger's, Windam's, etc, etc; it did a spectacular job at that, with the Anti-Ship Sword, and boomerangs, and all of it's weapons. How often are the Hand Cannons going to be used against a Beam Saber, once apparently- in a last ditch defensive effort. Honestly the Beam Shields would have worked much better and were in fine position to do it- they pretty much always will be.

Shinn's ENTIRE PURPOSE in Destiny was to fight Durandal's biggest opponents, who were--you guessed it!--KIRA AND ATHRUN. So actually yeah, I'm fairly certain that they were meant to take on Kira and Athrun. I mean, hell--the Legend is based off of the Providence! The only other mobile suit to EVER give the Freedom a hard time in a one-on-one fight! Not much of a stretch to figure out why THAT is. And I daresay the same thing applies to the Destiny to a degree.

Originally Posted by LightMaster

Also, it did, once, Infinite Justice defended against them.

Okay, humor me--which episode, at which timeframe? I don't remember this happening at all.

That said, only using it the one time isn't much better than not using them at all.

Originally Posted by LightMaster

But the Excalibur would have the same problem, it'd just take up more space when stored.

The Excalibur wasn't so long that it needed to fold up for storage at all, though. The Arondight is still much longer, and as a result easier to counter in battle. It also had less potential blade to use, as from the looks of things it couldn't ignite its tip. As a result swings still had to be uncomfortably close to the mobile suit, rather than taking advantage of its longer reach to hit opponents without letting them get as close.

[Kuroi Hadou]

Originally Posted by LightMaster

Blast was specifically made for Long Range and Fire Support, Destiny wasn't. So yes, there's goes to be a certain, expected, loss in the firepower department.

You can't just slap on a cannon and say the suit is capable of performing at long range, just like you can't slap on a beam saber and say the suit is capable of performing at close range. Well, I guess you can, but you just get a sub-par suit. The issue with jack of all trades units that the Destiny is trying to be is almost none of them actually work as intended. The fighters that were specifically designed to operate in multiple roles ended up sucking at almost all of them. Even the battlecruiser, supposedly a perfect mix of a battleship and a cruiser, ended up having the worst flaws of both and none of the strengths. The fighters that ended up being good at multiple roles ended up being so entirely by accident.

Look at the Freedom. You yourself admit the Freedom is optimized for long-range, but despite that and the only close-range weapons of the suit being beam sabers, no-one would say it was deficient at close-range. That's because it had the speed and maneuverability to operate well at that range. The Destiny, by contrast, had its only long-range weapon countered by just one of the SF's beam weapons every time the two fought each other. The Destiny was a sitting duck while it was locked in a beam war, and it always ended up in a beam war with the SF. We all know what happened when it tried to take on a suit optimized for close-range combat. By trying to be adequate at both roles, it ended up sucking at both.

But...on the Blast Impulse if you lose a cannon you lose the cannon, the missiles and the Beam Javelin stored therein. Likewise with the Blast Impulse you lose the arm, you likely use the ability to fire the corresponding cannon- they have handles just like the Destiny's Cannon. Doubtful that you can have the cannon explode and not have the railguns right next door not get damaged.

That's generally what happens when you remove a weapon from a Gundam in combat: You lose combat effectiveness. The difference is Shinn took more damage in the Destiny than he ever did in the Impulse. Hell, Shinn in the Destiny took more damage than Lunamaria in the Impulse did, despite being the better pilot with the supposedly better suit.

That's dumb, the Destiny would have been able to move at infinity speed if that we're the case. It would only get -slower- from the iteration we saw if they added more weight.

To use your own phrase: That's dumb. Even if the Destiny's weight was literally 0, the same weight as a photon, it could only ever move at the speed of light. No faster, and no slower. It is physically impossible to move at infinity km/s, it's not even possible to move at the speed of light if you're not a photon, and that's not even getting into the fuel and energy problems you run into just trying to get out of the Earth's atmosphere let alone hit relativistic speeds. Trying to say the Destiny could move at infinity speed just makes you look like an idiot.

No-one, no-one, is saying the Destiny wouldn't get heavier if more weight was added to it. What we're are saying is the WoL that you keep praising are supposedly a more powerful thruster to begin with, and a more powerful thruster means you can afford to add on more weight without losing speed. You won't gain any speed, but you won't lose any either. And guess what? The Destiny was still heavier than any of the Impulse's three primary Silhouettes save the Blast, which was still lighter than the Legend, despite those Silhouettes doubling up on everything and the Legend having enough speed without VL to keep up with the VL-equipped SF.

False, the Destiny doesn't look nearly as clusterfuck at the back. Naturally because it has less stored there. What is stored there is folded up to save space and keep out of the way when not in use. Everything looks much larger on the Destiny Impulse, compared to the actual Mobile Suit. The wings go out farther, the Excalibur hangs down further the cannons seem to jut up taller despite being in storage mode.

Alright, a note because you don't seem to be getting it: The word you're looking for is "cluttered," not "clusterfuck." You're getting bent out of shape on an issue of aesthetics that in the long run doesn't even matter, because again, aesthetics does not a better weapon make. It's effectiveness as a weapon is what makes a better weapon, and the Destiny's weapons just aren't effective. Nice and pretty and taking up less space? Yes? Effective? The Destiny got raped every time it tried to go up against a serious opponent at the ranges those weapons were designed to operate in.

The whole point of -real- wings, functioning wings; wings on a plane or on a bird. Everything has to be aerodynamically sound for wings to work as wings, you can't put a set of Delta's on a house an expect it to fly- Freedom has engines in it's wings, that's the point of HiMAT- to get them all pointed in as many varied directions as possible at any one time.

To create lift it'd need to casually violate the laws of aerodynamics with those wings, especially the set that keeps the Beam Cannon stored on it. Totally aerodynamically sound.

Question: Are MS in CE already capable of flight without wings? Answer: Yes. So much for your point about aerodynamic soundness. The mere fact almost any MS in CE can fly under its own power is already a violation of those "laws of aerodynamics" you're trying to say we're ignoring. The Freedom's (and any other MS's wings save the SF and Destiny's pretty lights) wings, regardless of whether they have thrusters imbedded in them, are going to create lift just by being there whether you want to admit it or not. The Freedom doesn't need them to create lift and get in the air in the first place. Once it's in the air and flying under its own power, its wings create lift. All thrusters do is push a suit in a single direction: Forward. Wings, real or fictional, provide additional lift so the thrusters don't need to work as hard counterbalancing the machine's weight pulling the body back down to the ground.

[Znozzy]

Originally Posted by Kuroi Hadou

You can't just slap on a cannon and say the suit is capable of performing at long range, just like you can't slap on a beam saber and say the suit is capable of performing at close range. Well, I guess you can, but you just get a sub-par suit.

Sword/Launcher Striker packs would like to have a word with you, They both performed their functions fine without being subpar in SEED.

Look at the Freedom. You yourself admit the Freedom is optimized for long-range, but despite that and the only close-range weapons of the suit being beam sabers, no-one would say it was deficient at close-range. That's because it had the speed and maneuverability to operate well at that range. The Destiny, by contrast, had its only long-range weapon countered by just one of the SF's beam weapons every time the two fought each other. The Destiny was a sitting duck while it was locked in a beam war, and it always ended up in a beam war with the SF. We all know what happened when it tried to take on a suit optimized for close-range combat. By trying to be adequate at both roles, it ended up sucking at both.

The Destiny would've lost if the Freedom had a pea-shooter, because it's Kira piloting it, Destiny had a fully functioning long-range weapon, it's like saying a scout sniper team has no function because artillery is nearby.

That's generally what happens when you remove a weapon from a Gundam in combat: You lose combat effectiveness. The difference is Shinn took more damage in the Destiny than he ever did in the Impulse. Hell, Shinn in the Destiny took more damage than Lunamaria in the Impulse did, despite being the better pilot with the supposedly better suit.

Because he was fighting Kira/Athrun more than grunts in the Destiny - Hell, the only times he actually took damage in the Destiny was against the two best pilots in the show, Athrun & Kira. He was not a worse pilot in the Destiny, he actually tore Destroy's apart left and right, something he did not do in the Impulse.

No-one, no-one, is saying the Destiny wouldn't get heavier if more weight was added to it. What we're are saying is the WoL that you keep praising are supposedly a more powerful thruster to begin with, and a more powerful thruster means you can afford to add on more weight without losing speed. You won't gain any speed, but you won't lose any either. And guess what? The Destiny was still heavier than any of the Impulse's three primary Silhouettes save the Blast, which was still lighter than the Legend, despite those Silhouettes doubling up on everything and the Legend having enough speed without VL to keep up with the VL-equipped SF.

Indeed. Then again, Compared to regular grunt suits, the Destiny outpaced them by far.

Question: Are MS in CE already capable of flight without wings? Answer: Yes. So much for your point about aerodynamic soundness. The mere fact almost any MS in CE can fly under its own power is already a violation of those "laws of aerodynamics" you're trying to say we're ignoring. The Freedom's (and any other MS's wings save the SF and Destiny's pretty lights) wings, regardless of whether they have thrusters imbedded in them, are going to create lift just by being there whether you want to admit it or not. The Freedom doesn't need them to create lift and get in the air in the first place. Once it's in the air and flying under its own power, its wings create lift. All thrusters do is push a suit in a single direction: Forward. Wings, real or fictional, provide additional lift so the thrusters don't need to work as hard counterbalancing the machine's weight pulling the body back down to the ground.

That applies to Nuclear powered mobile suits, to be honest, every other flying mobile suit either has wings or packs to enable flight.

The odd one out being the Chaos and the Forbidden, the rest are shown doing long jumps (Duel, Blitz, Aegis, Calamity, Strike) but never sustained flight.

Originally Posted by Rising Dragon

Fine, you want to find official documentation then? If so, try to find something a little more supportive than your HiMAT claim.

See, even with official documentation, the Animation in the actual show makes it hard to say it even matters

And that's why he lost all the time using the Destiny, amirite?

He lost in the Destiny because he kept going up against named characters, aside from Athrun and Kira, Shinn pretty much kicked ass against any Opponent (Cagalli, Poor Grunts #1-#560)

Sure, it's nasty when an opponent can't deal with it--ask any Destroy unit--but it's meant for specific types of enemies that Shinn just rarely uses it against. In any fight with Athrun, he would've been better off using the beam saber functions of his boomerangs. Instead, he uses big sword, and as a result loses pretty much every battle against him.

I really, really hope the REMASTER makes him use the beam saber function of the boomerans a bit more, i mean, it's pretty silly he uses them ONCE in the show, but, you know, rule of cool and all.

Again: Shinn lost all the time against skilled opponents after acquiring the Destiny. Wasn't much of an improvement, was it?

No, but he didn't really have any named characters except Kira and Athrun to fight against either - He killed Sting off pretty easy.

Okay, humor me--which episode, at which timeframe? I don't remember this happening at all.

That said, only using it the one time isn't much better than not using them at all.

it's a 1-2 second scene when he fights the IJ at Orb, it's seriously silly, but he does use it ONCE

The Excalibur wasn't so long that it needed to fold up for storage at all, though. The Arondight is still much longer, and as a result easier to counter in battle. It also had less potential blade to use, as from the looks of things it couldn't ignite its tip. As a result swings still had to be uncomfortably close to the mobile suit, rather than taking advantage of its longer reach to hit opponents without letting them get as close.

Honestly, the Destiny had one less blade to use than the Sword impulse.

And the two knives, if you count those, but those aren't useful against PS anyhow, so.

If anything, the Destiny had a stronger close combat potential than the Sword Impulse, but less weapons.

Palm cannonsx2, AS-Sword, 2xBeam saber/Boomerangs against:

2x AS-Sword, 2x Beam boomerangs and 2x Knives.

Now, Shinn being stupid obviously wasted all that potential, but the Destiny itself is a fine mobile suit.

[CBredbeard]

Originally Posted by Rising Dragon

Shinn's ENTIRE PURPOSE in Destiny was to fight Durandal's biggest opponents, who were--you guessed it!--KIRA AND ATHRUN. So actually yeah, I'm fairly certain that they were meant to take on Kira and Athrun.

Kira was believed to be dead and Athrun was meant to pilot the Legend.

[RES-01 Perses Gundam]

Originally Posted by CBredbeard

Kira was believed to be dead and Athrun was meant to pilot the Legend.

The decision to build Destiny was most likely made before Kira was 'defeated' by Shinn. Besides, Durandal implicitly recognised Lacus and Kira as his greatest opponents, so it makes sense to incorporate technology meant as countermeasures against Kira.

Also, seeing how close Legend resembles its predecessor Providence I reckon that it was built with Rey in mind; offering Athrun the gundam Durandal had nothing to lose, oblige and you have someone with the experience and skill to take down Kira. Decline and Rey would fulfill his destiny (you know what I mean).

In any case, defeating Kira should have factored into Destiny's principal design, you can never underestimate the tenacity of a war veteran and an ultimate coordinator.

[monster]

The only SEED/Destiny mobile suits said to be build for a specific pilot was Destiny and Akatsuki. All the rest are meant for skilled pilots, but not necessarily for any one in particular. And even Destiny and Akatsuki are not really tied to Shinn and Cagalli, respectively.

[Aquaman OS]

Destiny wasn't designed to beat Kira. Impulse was. That's why Durandal brought it out the instant Kira was gone and the focus of the war was shifting to taking out Logos with its many Destroys and superior numbers.

By the time Durandal unveiled Destiny, Kira was "dead" (Durandal seriously believed Shinn had killed him as he revealed in his thoughts.) and Athrun could easily be dealt with if he was a threat. He had no idea Lacus had another Freedom AND another Justice waiting in the wings. He'd thought he'd basically beat her. SF and IJ appearing and Lacus showing up in person to defend Orb stunned him.

Destiny was perfectly designed for taking out Destroys, and weaker mobile suits, because with Freedom and the stolen second stage units destroyed, that was all the opposition Durandal expected. Not for taking out nuclear powered MS's of its level....because there weren't any that Durandal knew of.

As for Legend, I think it was always meant for Rey and him offering it to Athrun was just a test to see if he'd swallow Kira's supposed death and continue beliving in Durandal. As soon as Athrun leaves Durandal starts making plans to frame him.

Originally Posted by monster

The only SEED/Destiny mobile suits said to be build for a specific pilot was Destiny and Akatsuki. All the rest are meant for skilled pilots, but not necessarily for any one in particular. And even Destiny and Akatsuki are not really tied to Shinn and Cagalli, respectively.

SF and IJ were specifically built and customized for Kira and Athrun. Although they were built from the unfinished prototypes taken from Zaft, which were in turn based on the existing Freedom and Justice, their final designs were custom made for the two of them.

[aeriolewinters]

which makes the Strike Freedom's origins a mystery, still... because the if we're going by the books and say that the Strike Freedom was a ZAFT prototype... then how come Durandal didn't forsee it?

SF and IJ were specifically built and customized for Kira and Athrun. Although they were built from the unfinished prototypes taken from Zaft, which were in turn based on the existing Freedom and Justice, their final designs were custom made for the two of them.

I'm thinking that these two were kinda like the Sinanju. I just wish that Bandai or Sunrise would make a 'Stein' for each of them.

[monster]

Originally Posted by Aquaman OS

SF and IJ were specifically built and customized for Kira and Athrun. Although they were built from the unfinished prototypes taken from Zaft, which were in turn based on the existing Freedom and Justice, their final designs were custom made for the two of them.

Well, Strike Freedom, maybe, but Athrun wasn't a reliable member of their team when the Infinite Justice was made. It could've just been made as a spare.

[aeriolewinters]

monster, do you seriously think Lacus was going to pilot Infinite Justice?

[monster]

Originally Posted by aeriolewinters

monster, do you seriously think Lacus was going to pilot Infinite Justice?

Um, no. What gave you that idea?

[Aquaman OS]

She would have been the only coordinator left, since the Dom trio already had their custom units designed to work as a team, and Andy had Gaia.

But its more likely Lacus simply believed Athrun would come around, or it was in development before they found out he had sided against them. Remember that until they meet him after the first Zaft vs Orb battle they think he's still stuck at Plant somewhere, and might even need rescue. They had no idea he'd signed on with Zaft again.

[monster]

Originally Posted by Aquaman OS

She would have been the only coordinator left, since the Dom trio already had their custom units designed to work as a team, and Andy had Gaia.

You act like all these pilots are tied to their mobile suits.

But its more likely that Lacus simply believed Athrun would come around, or it was in development before they found out he had sided against them. Remember that until they meet him after the first Zaft vs Orb battle they think he's still stuck at Plant somewhere, and might even need rescue. They had no idea he'd signed on with Zaft again.

They found out that Athrun was with ZAFT before Lacus left Earth, and I doubt that she had the two mobile suits made while she was still on Earth. That said, I'm sure Lacus would've kept the option open for Athrun to rejoin them and pilot the Infinite Justice, but that doesn't mean that the Infinite Justice was made solely for Athrun.

[Rising Dragon]

Originally Posted by Znozzy

Sword/Launcher Striker packs would like to have a word with you, They both performed their functions fine without being subpar in SEED.

Well, the Sword and Launcher Strikers were also fielded at a time when beam weaponry were only deployed by the Gundams, so for the most part, they were safe from harm. Kira also grew experienced using such weaponry and thus his fighting style in the Strike was adapted to it... and also, for the most part he only used the Aile Striker in combat, and rarely used the other packs against beam-capable enemies.

It also doesn't hurt that Kira was a prodigy in a mobile suit and a bit more gifted than the rest of the gifted Coordinators.

Originally Posted by Znozzy

Because he was fighting Kira/Athrun more than grunts in the Destiny - Hell, the only times he actually took damage in the Destiny was against the two best pilots in the show, Athrun & Kira. He was not a worse pilot in the Destiny, he actually tore Destroy's apart left and right, something he did not do in the Impulse.

***

He lost in the Destiny because he kept going up against named characters, aside from Athrun and Kira, Shinn pretty much kicked ass against any Opponent (Cagalli, Poor Grunts #1-#560)

***

No, but he didn't really have any named characters except Kira and Athrun to fight against either - He killed Sting off pretty easy.

Well, as I mentioned before, perhaps we would've seen a better overall performance if the EA had any viable ace pilots left. But there were only four in the show, one of which was captured, two of which were dead, and the last as good as dead, because he was piloting a Destroy Gundam.

And the thing is, Shinn is an analytical combatant when his mind is clear--or when his rage is focused. And even though he wasn't in the best state of mind when it happened, Shinn would've noted the fact that the Destroy Gundam had a crippling weakness to melee weaponry, being too large to fight up-close and seemingly only having positron deflectors for defenses. So after that first one, the Destroy wasn't a terribly effective enemy to ZAFT anymore--hell, Shinn very quickly switched to melee and had the others do the same.

So you can't really claim that his wiping out Destroys left and right is much of an accomplishment.

Originally Posted by Znozzy

See, even with official documentation, the Animation in the actual show makes it hard to say it even matters

Unfortunately true; as I said before I was pointing out the inconsistency in the show regarding the Destiny Gundam. It isn't even worth naming its flight system, despite them going out of their way to give a proper system name to the Strike Freedom's.

Originally Posted by Znozzy

I really, really hope the REMASTER makes him use the beam saber function of the boomerans a bit more, i mean, it's pretty silly he uses them ONCE in the show, but, you know, rule of cool and all.

it's a 1-2 second scene when he fights the IJ at Orb, it's seriously silly, but he does use it ONCE

One could hope so, and there's a fairly good possibility they will, but until then, it makes Shinn's performance in the Destiny subpar, which makes me question whether it was really built for him like it's stated in the show--anyone can lie, after all.

Originally Posted by Znozzy

Honestly, the Destiny had one less blade to use than the Sword impulse.

And the two knives, if you count those, but those aren't useful against PS anyhow, so.

If anything, the Destiny had a stronger close combat potential than the Sword Impulse, but less weapons.

Palm cannonsx2, AS-Sword, 2xBeam saber/Boomerangs against:

2x AS-Sword, 2x Beam boomerangs and 2x Knives.

Maybe, maybe not. It had potential, sure, but it had a number of ideas that were good in theory but terrible in practice--an Excalibur would've been a better choice over an Arondight. If it needed extra reach, the combination method would've worked, given the igniting tip. The palm cannons have a heavy risk of letting the mobile suit lose an arm, which at that point invalidates a huge amount of its armaments. Too many of its weapons need to be hand-held to be used at all, unlike the Freedom and the Justice.

UC and other AU fans can say what they will about SEED's obsession with backpacks, but frankly speaking SEED was the most practical at weapon placement. They didn't limit themselves to handheld weapons--they mounted weapons on backs, on hips, on legs, on the body... and a good deal of them don't need an arm present to still use. The Freedom is particularly brilliant in this aspect, as of its five mounted ranged weapons, only one of them needs to a hand to use. Of the Strike Freedom, only two out of its thirteen ranged weapons.

Its melee weapons are only a pair of beam sabers that can combine, yet those have less of a risk of being destroyed, unlike a bulky anti-ship sword or a palm-mounted cannon.

Originally Posted by Znozzy

Now, Shinn being stupid obviously wasted all that potential, but the Destiny itself is a fine mobile suit.

Sure, if you know how to use it properly, which Shinn clearly did not, which gives credence to the idea that it wasn't actually built with him specifically in mind. They really would've been better if they'd just modified the Impulse to use a Hyper-Deuterion Nuclear Reactor.

Originally Posted by Aquaman OS

SF and IJ were specifically built and customized for Kira and Athrun. Although they were built from the unfinished prototypes taken from Zaft, which were in turn based on the existing Freedom and Justice, their final designs were custom made for the two of them.

The Infinite Justice might've been built specifically for Athrun, but the Strike Freedom was a ZAFT design that wasn't originally meant for Kira--Terminal just stole the plans and/or the completed suit, and tuned it for Kira's use. Without the upgraded DRAGOON control system, it would've been a lot less effective for Kira.

Originally Posted by monster

You act like all these pilots are tied to their mobile suits. They found out that Athrun was with ZAFT before Lacus left Earth, and I doubt that she had the two mobile suits made while she was still on Earth. That said, I'm sure Lacus would've kept the option open for Athrun to rejoin them and pilot the Infinite Justice, but that doesn't mean that the Infinite Justice was made solely for Athrun.

Well, if they're in the heat of battle already then they can't easily be recalled so they can use a different mobile suit. Especially if they're unfamiliar with something as powerful as a Gundam. The three DOM pilots were already familiar with using their DOM Troopers, to the point they had their own specialized attack with it (homage to the original series notwithstanding). One of those pilots may not have been reliable in the Infinite Justice compared to its intended pilot.

[Kuroi Hadou]

Originally Posted by Znozzy

Sword/Launcher Striker packs would like to have a word with you, They both performed their functions fine without being subpar in SEED.

Ah, but the Sword and Launcher packs both had more than a single weapon to operate at the range they were designed to operate in. Same for the Impulse's Blast and Sword packs. The Destiny only had two long-range weapons, and its primary close-range weapon couldn't even be used if the Destiny wanted to hold its beam rifle, which it barely used anyway.

The Destiny would've lost if the Freedom had a pea-shooter, because it's Kira piloting it, Destiny had a fully functioning long-range weapon, it's like saying a scout sniper team has no function because artillery is nearby.

You can't really use that comparison because the two serve very different purposes that are counterproductive to each other. Snipers take out specific targets; artillery blows everything in the area to hell and back. Comparatively, the Freedom was the one doing both the sniping and the artillery fire. The Destiny was the one with a pea-shooter.

Because he was fighting Kira/Athrun more than grunts in the Destiny - Hell, the only times he actually took damage in the Destiny was against the two best pilots in the show, Athrun & Kira. He was not a worse pilot in the Destiny, he actually tore Destroy's apart left and right, something he did not do in the Impulse.

And as RD already mentioned, SEED's grunts are the worst of any AU save maybe Wing. Stomping on grunts isn't all that impressive in this series.

Indeed. Then again, Compared to regular grunt suits, the Destiny outpaced them by far.

So did every other Gundam in CE.

That applies to Nuclear powered mobile suits, to be honest, every other flying mobile suit either has wings or packs to enable flight.

The odd one out being the Chaos and the Forbidden, the rest are shown doing long jumps (Duel, Blitz, Aegis, Calamity, Strike) but never sustained flight.

Alright, so not every suit in CE can fly on its own. Even so, that just proves my point even further. Wings = sustained flight, and to get sustained flight, you need to generate lift.

[Gundamx]

Durandal make me remamber Donzo from Naruto...
Donzo can't trust that he will be givin the ninja alliance lead even though he have most chance to lead it so he try to hypnotism samurai leader to let himself become the ninja alliance leader

while Durandal can't trust rogue element (Kira and co.) so he give hit order and because of it Kira didn't leave Orb to PLANET...

By the way, is it me or Durandal believe in same think as Raul?
Humanity will destroy itself but unlike him, he try to stop that by force ( destiny plan )
while Raul: Humanity will destroy itself? Sure and while at it, let me help!

but if you think about it.. won't the destiny plan destroy humanity?
not just because it will remove their will but because they will all become Coordinator
and we already know that Coordinator can't have health third generation child ( they are sterile ) and they still don't have any cure for it

...now that i start to think about it.... why don't blue cosmos just try to control whole earth (technically they already did at destiny) and just re-ban Coordinators children?

[Aquaman OS]

According to the latest revision it was based on Athrun's data from when he used Aegis and Justice (both before the refit, and after, SF only started using Kira's data once CF started redesigning it) and was built to best accomodate him. That doesn't mean they'd leave it if there if Athrun never came around, but it was certainly built with the general idea that he would be using it.

[cyberdemon]

Originally Posted by Aquaman OS

Destiny wasn't designed to beat Kira. Impulse was. That's why Durandal brought it out the instant Kira was gone and the focus of the war was shifting to taking out Logos with its many Destroys and superior numbers.

i agree but every time I bring this up too many try to deny it. Impulse was perfectly built to deal with Kira's style of fighting. Parts can be replaced as many times as needed so long as Kira doesn't suddenly decide to kill the pilot. So it's a mobile suit that can keep going and whittle away at the freedom a little at a time so long as supplies last. Shinn is a skilled pilot in his own right but without the impulse he would be shit against Kira. Giving Destiny to Shinn right after Kira is gone shows that for Durandal the Impulse served it's purpose with the only one truly capable of doing anything to it out of the way. Otherwise why not give Destiny to Shinn before the fight and give him a mobile suit that could hold it's own against the Freedom?

[Rising Dragon]

Doesn't that otherwise imply that the Destiny was created ahead of time? That it was "ready and waiting" for Shinn to use? All we've gotten thus far is an obscure statement in the show that it was made with Shinn's combat data--and then we get information that its Armor Dividing system had Shinn's combat data to program its viable range of movement.

It makes it sound like it was a testbed that had Shinn's data plugged into it, like how the Strike Freedom and Infinite Justice had Kira and Athrun's data plugged into it.