Learning Japanese

[wao]

Originally Posted by Ryuou

@ wao - By real-time are you talking about instant messaging or some similar function on Animesuki? I think we'd get in trouble if we just started conversing in Japanese in the forums.

What's the EJU? I don't think I've heard of it. And since I haven't taken 2kyuu I don't know how much extra effort is needed to pass 1kkyuu. I know there are practice books you can get to help gauge where you stand with the test.

Sorry for the laaate reply but - yeah I meant like IMs. I would definitely not recommend conversing in an entirely different language on the public forum pages, it's against the rules.
It's a bit hard finding people, I once just gulped and joined random crappy skypecast chat channels and eventually made friends with someone whom I continue talking to. Prior to that I used to email/chat with another person I got to know after an uh... silly incident.
Maybe getting to know people via games migth help?

The EJU is the Examination for Japanese University Admission (why not just EJUA??) It tests not only your Japanese skills but your basic understanding of some academic subjects (mathematics, plus either humanities OR sciences, not both) ...in Japanese.
If you want to enter a Japanese university and want to prove your Japanese language skills, the EJU is greatly preferred over the JLPT, which is highly limited and only tests mostly reading and aural comprehension, nothing on your ability to write - which would of course be central in university courses.


I was made to learn Chinese for much of my school life (and I hardly know my own ethnic language) ...so I really, really must admit when I see other students without the background struggle with kanji I feel so terribly good about myself for 5 seconds. 2000 kanji? What a breeze! When you consider how many of them are so easy...

...I still have a long way to go with sentence structures (I had no idea that ～ては～ is not solely restricted to preceding the negative form; and takes on a rather different meaning), and I definitely have problems figuring out which words to use for more sophisticated expressions, or when I want to talk about things like the economy (which I can't anyway)

The pitfalls of casual learning? I might've stayed on at a very low level if it wasn't for casual learning, though. I hate language lessons.

[fanty]

When learning kanji, which is better, mnemonics or rote memorisation?

In the past few weeks I learnt 400 kanji by rote memorisation, but for the last few days my brain is kinda rejecting all the new kanji I try to enter into it. So mnemonics are tempting, but I fear that I will clutter up my memory and wrap kanji up in English (I've been thinking about making mnemonics in Japanese but I'm not sure whether I'd be able to pull that off, my Japanese is only good enough to watch kids' anime and read shounen manga).

So... what should I do?

[Raiga]

The thing with Kanji though, is that there are only so many radicals and a certain amount of common word parts that make things much easier once you're familiar with them. Plus the sort of basic... dunno how to put it... "idea" I guess, behind the arrangement of the strokes... there's a rhyme and reason to it... er, I can't really explain it, but the idea is to be able to think of each Kanji not as a picture or set of lines but as containing many parts you can sorta group together in your memory... not to mention many word parts carry meanings, like how characters with the vertical 人 radical, the one that looks like the Katakana イ, have to do with people.

Er, I'm probably repeating things you already know... but I don't have too much trouble learning new Kanji (if I can motivate myself to try) and that's the best I can describe as to why.

[Mystique]

Originally Posted by Raiga

The thing with Kanji though, is that there are only so many radicals and a certain amount of common word parts that make things much easier once you're familiar with them. Plus the sort of basic... dunno how to put it... "idea" I guess, behind the arrangement of the strokes... there's a rhyme and reason to it... er, I can't really explain it, but the idea is to be able to think of each Kanji not as a picture or set of lines but as containing many parts you can sorta group together in your memory...

After the first 500, your brain should giveway and you begin seeing them and memorising on sight.
Because we have to equate them with english meaning, as well as the meaning in Japanese (there are always 3 aspects for foreginers to focus on), I make up analogies or stories for more complex kanji.
Indeed, once you get the radicals down and the basic meanings, the others become like a big ass puzzle game, it can be quite fun.
Here's an example for you:
女 【おんな】 (n) woman, (P)
又 【また】 (adv,conj,n) again, and, (P)
心 【こころ】 (n) mind, heart, spirit, (P)
Right, there are 3 you've just learnt.

Now look at this one:
怒る
"Many woman over heart = angry" (man)

In other words, having a woman nag a guy over and over, gives his heart stress and he gets angry (or goes visit a hostess) xD
- but that's the "story" I made up for myself to remember 'okoru', or rather that's the story I saw, when i looked at that kanji and the feminist in me ended up pissed off. xD
怒る 【おこる】 (v5r) (1) to get angry, to get mad, (2) to be angry, (P)

But you've just learnt 4 words and should be able to remember the order of how to write 'okoru' easier now.
-Thus your vocab begins to build, that is one fun way to learn kanji. Naturally, it can't apply to all characters, you have to utilise a series of techniques to best suit your brain, so I guess half the fun is figuring that out too.

[Tri-ring]

you can always use the Japanese method of expanding your knowledge of Kanji by dividing the kanji into "Hen" and "Tsukuri".
Hen will give you an association to the meaning like　氵（sanzui hen)
which is derived from water so any kanji with 氵within the kanji is associated with water like;
湖（lake), 海（sea),　水泳 (swim), 潮 (tide), 池 (pond), etc.

Tsukuri usually is associated with how it is read in on-yomi like 湖 (ko) tukuri is "胡" and is read "Ko" 瑚 is also "Ko".

[Vexx]

That's an interesting variation on mnemonic tricks.... mnemonics do nothing for me but that connective story method I'm going to give a try in my Sisyphysian attempts at being useful in Japanese.

[megassa]

Originally Posted by yFANTgirl

When learning kanji, which is better, mnemonics or rote memorisation?

Hallo,yFANTgirl.
I recommend you rote memorization.
It is better to actually write and to read aloud

It is because there are many exceptions in Kanji words very much.
The name of a place, a name of a person, an idiom, etc.
We can't deal completely with Kanji words by only memorizing a rule.

Since it is too large,there are no Japanese people who grasps completely.
Never mind.

Sorry about my poor english. Thank you.

[ZephyrLeanne]

Originally Posted by megassa

Hallo,yFANTgirl.
I recommend you rote memorization.
It is better to actually write and to read aloud

It is because there are many exceptions in Kanji words very much.
The name of a place, a name of a person, an idiom, etc.
We can't deal completely with Kanji words by only memorizing a rule.

Since it is too large,there are no Japanese people who grasps completely.
Never mind.

Sorry about my poor english. Thank you.

Rote Memorization... hmm. I think that it differs between people. Results may vary.
Oh yeah, hi, megassa. I think your English is pretty OK by most standards, just that you might like to use some slang to lighten up and look less formal here. Choice of register. Still, just work at it, and you'll get there.

After all my family was Chinese-Japanese, and I had a hard time with English while I was studying in Singapore. I just decided I would try to use it more often. I decided to join my college's debate club... I guessed it helped.

[megassa]

Hi,ShimatheKat.
Thanks for your response.

I can not use informal english yet.
I will use slang more.

Well,I think that it is too difficult to study kanji first.
It is better to have enabled it to read a hira-gana and kata-kana first.
Best way is watch more anime and read more manga.lol

And I found those sites. Please make reference.
http://www.hiraganatimes.com/index.html
http://www.kanjiclinic.com/index.html

[Ryuou]

Hmm...I have no idea what Rote Memorization is. I would say trying to understand the different parts that make up the kanji is very helpful. If you happen to forget how to write a certain kanji, you can sometimes think your way through it. But I guess this might not be helpful for mass memorizing.

@ wao - You know what, I think I took that test.

[Vexx]

"rote memorization" is simply memorizing the shapes and their meaning without any other connective memories --- basically Flashcards (like the way you may have memorized your multiplication tables).

And yeah, its pretty much a given that you should learn hiragana and katakana first, especially since the pronunciations and dictionaries will be using those phonetic symbols.

[oompa loompa]

Originally Posted by Vexx

And yeah, its pretty much a given that you should learn hiragana and katakana first, especially since the pronunciations and dictionaries will be using those phonetic symbols.

yeah, i see very little or no point at all in learnin kanji until one is fairly comfortable with atleast hiragana, and know katakana ( comfortable = being able to write things without spelling them out in syllables seperately).. its not like it takes particularly long anyways.. theres no need to rush into kanji

[Ryuou]

Originally Posted by Vexx

"rote memorization" is simply memorizing the shapes and their meaning without any other connective memories --- basically Flashcards (like the way you may have memorized your multiplication tables).

And yeah, its pretty much a given that you should learn hiragana and katakana first, especially since the pronunciations and dictionaries will be using those phonetic symbols.

Naruhodo, naruhodo. I take it they're also learning the different ways to read it then too right?

[Vexx]

I'd certainly recommend memorizing both readings as part of the same flash card .... especially since the "older the material assumes you are" the more kanji+kana combos you're going to encounter.

In my case, I've also decided that memorizing the kanji in Japanese K-12 school order is more useful for me because manga tends to be organized and written assuming particular age groups.

[Ryuou]

Yeah for the most part I learned in that order too. Up to whatever 1000 fell in. Upper Chuu or low Kou.

One thing about manga, and also other things that use furigana, that I don't like is that even if I know the kanji, my eyes automatically shoot over and read the furigana. Does anybody else have this problem? Well it’s not really a problem, more like a compulsory reaction.

[Tri-ring]

Originally Posted by Vexx

That's an interesting variation on mnemonic tricks.... mnemonics do nothing for me but that connective story method I'm going to give a try in my Sisyphysian attempts at being useful in Japanese.

Kanji was developed with this method so you're just reverse-engineering kanji into it's foundations.
Like 男(otoko[man]) this kanji is broken into two components, 田(ta[rice patty]) and 力(chikara[power])
The kanji was originally fomulated showing that man was doing the labor in the rice patties.

Another example is 潮(chou[tide]), this kanji can be broken down to 氵(sanzuihen[something associated with water]) and 朝(chou[morning]) the Kanji 朝 can be broken down further to 十(ju[ten]), 日(hi[sun or date]), 月(tuki[moon or month]).
Low tides come with the morning and tidal forces change with the moon's face with spring tide at full or new moon phase approximately 10 days apart.

[ZephyrLeanne]

Originally Posted by megassa

Well,I think that it is too difficult to study kanji first.
It is better to have enabled it to read a hira-gana and kata-kana first.
Best way is watch more anime and read more manga.lol

Seriously depends, since I had a foundation in Chinese, I started off with... KANJI... and I was learning it mainly on my own, in Singapore. I knew that MOELC's Japanese syllabus will not do good int the long run, because it's very academics, not flexible...

It depends. Are you more comfortable with the Alphabet? Then start with Kana. If you're more familiar to Chinese characters, you might want to work with Kanji first to understand meaning, then check back for reading/vocalization. Slowly move on to using kana for reading/vocal purposes.

[iLney]

You should stick to Heisig's method. If you are hardcore enough, you can learn the writing and meaning of 2042 kanji just in a month

Back to topic:

大臣って変な顔の人だった。

大臣って: is the reading of this a bit weird....? How do I suppose to read "tte"?

(and could anyone verify if the sentence is valid? )

[Ryuou]

Originally Posted by iLney

You should stick to Heisig's method. If you are hardcore enough, you can learn the writing and meaning of 2042 kanji just in a month

Back to topic:

大臣って変な顔の人だった。

大臣って: is the reading of this a bit weird....? How do I suppose to read "tte"?

(and could anyone verify if the sentence is valid? )

In a month? What the hell type of magical method is this? As much as I like kanji and love Japanese, I wouldn't be able to dedicate myself to that level of hardcoreness.

You read the small "tsu" with a bit of a pause. Or rather, I think it’s taught as a "skip" in the beat of the pronunciation. You pronounce the sound before, skip a beat, and then move to the next sound. I hope that made sense.

Edit: Oh, I forgot your last question. Yeah it works.

[Raiga]

EDIT: I'm a slow typer. v_v response to iLney.

Ah yeah, I wondered about that for a while. For one thing, the "double consonant" in romanization is what's called a geminate consonant. It's best if you just train your ear to hear what this sounds like, since it's hard to describe. You just sort of stop on the consonant briefly, give it extra emphasis... sort of.

って is the "casual quoting particle" according to nihongoresources.com. Basically whatever was said before the って is put in quotation marks.

A couple questions on typing in Japanese... how do you get the small つ without having to actually type a double consonant, and how do you get the katakana vowel extender? Using Windows default Japanese typing doohickey.

Speaking of which today I found out that characters in Chinese and Kanji that overlap (well, simplified that is... in unsimplified that's practically everything) are recognized the same by Unicode, which is awesome since I can now look up Kanji that I don't know but which are Chinese words I know.