Madoka Magica - Episode 07 Discussion / Poll

[Kaijo]

Originally Posted by Decagon

Speculation. What gives you the qualifications to make a psych profile of this guy and expect us to believe it? There isn't even a concrete timeline of the events between how much time they spent in poverty to the wish to the breakdown. You think a little kid wouldn't have made a wish within a week or even a few days?

You're more than welcome to look up psychology if you like. And while it is speculation, psychology generally holds that people work up to a snapping point. I've posted above about the well known effects of poverty on a family, so what follows is simple extrapolation.

So speculation, yes, but based on the real world.

Originally Posted by Elestia

Sure, I'm glad you did me a favor, but that doesn't follow that it would make me happy. There see? There's no contradiction. In fact it happens all the time.

I'm glad I'm alive, but I'm completely miserable. I fear death more than I hate my life.

But then you'd have to ignore how much Mami was smiling and enjoying hanging out with the two. She even greeted them with a smile. Doesn't quite sound like a despairing, broken individual to me. She might be 100% happy, but she wasn't in the dumps, either. In other words, just like most people most of the time. =)

Mmm, there's a difference between a suggestion and giving advice. But QB has given advice in general terms that wishes should not be taken lightly and that consideration should be given. So my curiosity to why QB hasn't given more advice is still left unsatisfied. It would be in his best interest to make sure the wish satisfies party to benefit his system to fight witches. Happy, fulfilled, motivated girls make for better fighters.

As the rule shows us, he's bound by certain things as to what he can and cannot do. By even giving the advice he has, he might be walking the thin line.

And interestingly enough, he held back information so he would have happier, more fulfilled, and more motivated fighters.

[SagaraSouske]

Originally Posted by Kaijo

I'd pretty much say Nanoha wasn't quite aware of the dangers of using magic, since it was her pushing her magic use that led to her crippling. That was, like, a major plot point in StrikerS.

His point remains valid: none of the other MG's were ever told everything about what they were getting into. Sakura didn't know about the testing trial until it actually happened; so Keroberos is evil for withholding that information. Yuuno didn't tell Nanoha that other mages might come into play; therefore he was evil for withholding that information. Luna didn't tell Usagi at the start she would have to face a nasty evil that killed her mom in a previous life; therefore Luna wa evil in withholding that information.

I thought the point was about the inherent danger of being a magical girl and fighting other renegade magic users and such. But if it was about over use of magic, I would think that isn't something that needs to be told but rather common sense. Doing too much of a lot of thing has consequences. A lot of professional athletes get injured because they took their body beyond endurance. People who overwork for long periods of time have their health deteriorate, etc.

His point isn't valid because withholding information does not equate to evil and doesn't automatically equate to deception. How one withholding information, for what purpose and combined with other actions determine whether such withholding information has a negative impact.

This type of argument of picking at pieces and using analogies that is out of context while ignoring the rest is what you have been doing frequently.

Originally Posted by Kaijo

Then you didn't read the link, nor really read into my post. If witch attacks are only 2% of all suicides, that wouldn't be a big percentage of all other normal suicides, thus society would not take notice. But as I showed, that is still thousands of people dying.

Are there really more than several thousand MG's dying in Japan, such that it would be easier to just let witches do their thing? Given Kyube's contracting rate, he'd be out of MG's in less than a day. Since we've only had one MG die out of 4 (and possibly 5), that let's us know that an MG dying isn't a normal everyday thing. Kyoko alone took out several easily.

And by the way, suicides in Japan are actually abnormally high, and climbing. This is the 12th straight year they've been over 30,000. How many people over 30,000 do you think it would take for society to really take notice? Another 5,000? 10,000?

Apparently you believe that if another 5,000 people die by suicide in a year, it's not a big deal, because society wouldn't take notice anyway.

If you look at it purely as a social issue, yes, 5000 people out of population of Japan is not a big deal. The problem presented by witches are far less of an social problem then the underline cause of the actual higher then norm suicide rates in Japan. On a social context, statistics outweighs emotion. For example, if a legislation that will reduce automobile accidental death by 20000 a year, and we have the resource to either make that legislation or deal with witches that causing 5000 suicide death, the choice is clear.

But thanks for shifting the attention away from the point I made to something not very relevant to the discussion.

As for how many MGs are there, let's see:

Mami was killed by a witch.
MGs compete for killing witches because they need the grief seed.
Homura said she has seen countless MGs die.
Mami hinted at death to witches is very real and possible - which indicates that she has prob seen other MGs die.
If QB was the only contractor, there is no way to have MGs in entire Japan because so far he is stuck in this one city and only contracted 1 MG. So it is possible there are other QBs running around in other areas contracting MGs.
Sayaka is on the brink of breaking mentally on her 2nd witch (with 1 familiar in between) - she may die in the next encounter or may turn into a witch as some speculated.
MGs gets various powers based on their wish and have various level of strength.
We don't know what happens when a MG's SG turns completely dark - possibly turn into witch or possibly death. But it won't be something good.

Compiling these together, it seems to indicate a high mortality rate for MGs and only the strong survive longer because
1. they obtain more grief seeds to maintain themselves.
2. they can fight stronger witches and survive.

Once a MG die, another needs to be made to take over. With constant MG death, there will be a need for a constant new supply of MGs. Using Mentar's words, it's a meat grinder that we see young girls continually being fed into.

Whether or not witches only target 2% or 10% of population, the fact remains that society has not noticed their effect. With the high mortality rate of MGs, my point still stands that the MG system does not justify as a means to put an end to the threat presented by the witches and it is too high a price to pay.

[Silverwyrm]

Originally Posted by Elestia

Sure, I'm glad you did me a favor, but that doesn't follow that it would make me happy. There see? There's no contradiction. In fact it happens all the time.

I'm glad I'm alive, but I'm completely miserable. I fear death more than I hate my life.

Mami didn't seem completely miserable, depressed, or broken. Not in the least. Sometimes she was more down by the MG problems, other times she was bright and cheerful. However she never let on or even hinted the kind of depression or extreme thoughts you are portraying.

[Decagon]

Originally Posted by Kaijo

You're more than welcome to look up psychology if you like. And while it is speculation, psychology generally holds that people work up to a snapping point. I've posted above about the well known effects of poverty on a family, so what follows is simple extrapolation.

So speculation, yes, but based on the real world.

Yes, because speculation based on real world events works so well in fiction. If you're going to bring in real life poverty how about we bring in real life faith. You'd be surprised how resilient faith of all kinds makes people who are in poverty or incarcerated, or how prayer/meditation helps people overcome or slow down development of psychological issues.

Most grievously, your snapping point example is flawed as well because your link to the cliff notes effects of poverty doesn't even mention psychological impacts of poverty. Why don't you quote a line there to support your point? Increased incident of domestic violence maybe? That's hardly a mental disorder. You instead use that to emphasize the impact of a brief time in poverty, a social condition, compared to a person finding out his success in preaching his faith is attributable to forces he considers the antithesis of what he is preaching.

Like you even admitted, we don't have a time frame for their time in poverty. They still had the church so you can assume they did not sell their property, and as people showed up to listen to him right after Kyoko made her wish, they certainly did not close down; but they had no more tithings or backing from whatever larger church body he was kicked out of so their family was going hungry. We do not know the most important part which is when Kyoko made her wish in all of this.

[Kaijo]

Originally Posted by SagaraSouske

I thought the point was about the inherent danger of being a magical girl and fighting other renegade magic users and such. But if it was about over use of magic, I would think that isn't something that needs to be told but rather common sense. Doing too much of a lot of thing has consequences. A lot of professional athletes get injured because they took their body beyond endurance. People who overwork for long periods of time have their health deteriorate, etc.

So... it is common sense to except an overuse of magic to lead to a debilitating weakness... but it isn't common sense to think, "Hey, if I have magic, maybe there is someone else out there who has it, too? Would they be friendly? Or would I have to fight them?"

His point isn't valid because withholding information does not equate to evil and doesn't automatically equate to deception. How one withholding information, for what purpose and combined with other actions determine whether such withholding information has a negative impact.

Alright, we're making progress then! If withholding information is to the benefit of the the person you're withholding information from, then it is okay.

This type of argument of picking at pieces and using analogies that is out of context while ignoring the rest is what you have been doing frequently.

Funny, I could say you were ignoring and sidestepping good analogies and parts of arguments, but then we'd get into an accusatory match, and that would just lead to all sorts of bad things. I'd rather not, and I think you'd agree.

If you look at it purely as a social issue, yes, 5000 people out of population of Japan is not a big deal.

You feel that 5,000 people dying isn't a big deal. Right then, I'll tell everyone that lost someone to 9/11 that the death was no big deal. The death toll has to go higher than 5,000 to be considered appropriate.

The problem presented by witches are far less of an social problem then the underline cause of the actual higher then norm suicide rates in Japan. On a social context, statistics outweighs emotion. For example, if a legislation that will reduce automobile accidental death by 20000 a year, and we have the resource to either make that legislation or deal with witches that causing 5000 suicide death, the choice is clear.

While I get what you're saying, this isn't exactly a resource issue, unless you feel Madoka can somehow save more people from dying to automobile accidents, that she can save as an MG. And while I love statistic and logic, other people tend to have emotions and consider them highly relevant. I'm sure they love to know who to blame, who could have saved their son or daughter from a suicide, and didn't.

But thanks for shifting the attention away from the point I made to something not very relevant to the discussion.

I'm extrapolating where your logic is taking you.

As for how many MGs are there, let's see:

Mami was killed by a witch.
MGs compete for killing witches because they need the grief seed.
Homura said she has seen countless MGs die.
Mami hinted at death to witches is very real and possible - which indicates that she has prob seen other MGs die.
If QB was the only contractor, there is no way to have MGs in entire Japan because so far he is stuck in this one city and only contracted 1 MG. So it is possible there are other QBs running around in other areas contracting MGs.
Sayaka is on the brink of breaking mentally on her 2nd witch (with 1 familiar in between) - she may die in the next encounter or may turn into a witch as some speculated.
MGs gets various powers based on their wish and have various level of strength.
We don't know what happens when a MG's SG turns completely dark - possibly turn into witch or possibly death. But it won't be something good.

Compiling these together, it seems to indicate a high mortality rate for MGs and only the strong survive longer because
1. they obtain more grief seeds to maintain themselves.
2. they can fight stronger witches and survive.

Interesting. You are willing to extrapolate out that MGs are dying all over the place from limited information. But you are unwilling to extrapolate out people dying from suicides from the same limited information.

Once a MG die, another needs to be made to take over. With constant MG death, there will be a need for a constant new supply of MGs. Using Mentar's words, it's a meat grinder that we see young girls continually being fed into.

War does tend to be a meat grinder. But I bet you enjoy the fact that you aren't speaking German today. Damn all those evil military recruiters who popped up in the 1930s and 1940s! Damn them for saving me from myself!

Whether or not witches only target 2% or 10% of population, the fact remains that society has not noticed their effect. With the high mortality rate of MGs, my point still stands that the MG system does not justify as a means to put an end to the threat presented by the witches and it is too high a price to pay.

Yeah, the whole point is that most people can't tell a normal suicide from a witch attack, which is why it goes unnoticed by society. Hitomi just felt she was hallucinating, and Mami told the one woman it was just a bad dream. It's standard fare the world generally doesn't know about the secret war being fought. Earth didn't know about the TSAB's activities nor Nanoha fighting in their streets(despite growing a gigantic tree over a town!), and not many knew about Sakura's card-capturing antics, or the Sailor Senshi's fight.

[Silverwyrm]

Originally Posted by SagaraSouske

Mami was killed by a witch.
MGs compete for killing witches because they need the grief seed.
Homura said she has seen countless MGs die.
Mami hinted at death to witches is very real and possible - which indicates that she has prob seen other MGs die.
If QB was the only contractor, there is no way to have MGs in entire Japan because so far he is stuck in this one city and only contracted 1 MG. So it is possible there are other QBs running around in other areas contracting MGs.
Sayaka is on the brink of breaking mentally on her 2nd witch (with 1 familiar in between) - she may die in the next encounter or may turn into a witch as some speculated.
MGs gets various powers based on their wish and have various level of strength.
We don't know what happens when a MG's SG turns completely dark - possibly turn into witch or possibly death. But it won't be something good.

Compiling these together, it seems to indicate a high mortality rate for MGs and only the strong survive longer because
1. they obtain more grief seeds to maintain themselves.
2. they can fight stronger witches and survive.

Once a MG die, another needs to be made to take over. With constant MG death, there will be a need for a constant new supply of MGs. Using Mentar's words, it's a meat grinder that we see young girls continually being fed into.

Whether or not witches only target 2% or 10% of population, the fact remains that society has not noticed their effect. With the high mortality rate of MGs, my point still stands that the MG system does not justify as a means to put an end to the threat presented by the witches and it is too high a price to pay.

Sayaka is on brink of breakdown on her second witch, but this is entirely due to her reaction to information that is rarely known to MG's, Kyoko is experienced and only found out now. If Sayaka didn't think of herself as some sort of "zombie" she would likely ask Kamijo out, as that seems to be her issue. Her current case doesn't feel like "the usual" so I don't think its fair to use that as a regular occurrence.

I doubt there are other QB's at least in Japan, based off of Kyoko's conversation with him where she claimed "if shes a puella magi she must have made a contract with you".

Many MGs die is a point that has been pushed often in this show, I feel Kyubey probably usually contracts more frequently but he's too caught up trying to get Madoka that he is falling behind his quota. How many we don't know though, I see hundreds said quite often regarding this, is there a line I missed or is this just exaggeration?

So lets say witches only target 2-10% of the population. Now lets remove MG's. So a familiar kills someone, becomes a witch. No one to stop it. Now its a witch, it causes mass suicide as in previous episode. No one stops it. Now it spawns a familiar. Now it continues to target random people, probably usually one at a time, but possibly more. Whats its familiar doing? Killing people, becoming a witch, spawning familiars, which do the same. Chain effect.

With nothing to stop and with the information given to us, they will multiply and multiply and the effective amount of people being killed by them will as well. Even if there was one witch in the world, left alone to grow and spawn familiar it would only be a matter of time for us. Given that even the good natured and generally happy friend of Madoka and Sayaka was effected, its probably safe to say they can target anyone.

As a final note, how bizzare of amount of suicide would be required for humanity to say "hmm something supernatural is trying to kill us" and even if they somehow did, how could they even find these invisible creatures much less deal with them?

[Elestia]

Originally Posted by fukarming

That is exactly the mindset of Mami. So what are you complaining about? Yes, her life is miserable, yet she fear death more than she hate her life. So her standard of living improve!

So if Mami can go back in time to talk to herself who is 2 minutes of dying, will she tell her not to take Kyube's wish and choose death?

Nothing. Cool, so we're in agreement in both our own views that the character herself personally felt her life as a magical girl was miserable. And not that when she said she was glad be alive, she was not automatically happy with her life. That's all I ever wanted.

Originally Posted by Kaijo

You're more than welcome to look up psychology if you like. And while it is speculation, psychology generally holds that people work up to a snapping point. I've posted above about the well known effects of poverty on a family, so what follows is simple extrapolation.

So speculation, yes, but based on the real world.

Ehhhh... that's the same line of arguing when gundam fans start applying "real world physics" to "gundam physics", it usually doesn't pan out very well, for obvious reasons.

Originally Posted by Kaijo

But then you'd have to ignore how much Mami was smiling and enjoying hanging out with the two. She even greeted them with a smile. Doesn't quite sound like a despairing, broken individual to me. She might be 100% happy, but she wasn't in the dumps, either. In other words, just like most people most of the time. =)

I'm mostly repeating a lot of my points here, but whatever.

Yes, she was enjoying her time with Madoka and Sayaka, but what about before that? From what Mami confessed to Madoka she was in the dumps. Before their arrival, she cried to herself, risked her life fighting witches, was completely isolated from everyone, couldn't find time for herself, had no one to talk to or provide emotional support, and suffered all alone being the only MG in the city. There was no one in the entire city, shouldering the same kind of burdens she had to carry.

From there, we could see that she was desperate to recruit Sayaka and Madoka into being MG best friends to relieve that loneliness. In order to ensure that, she put up a facade of being the cool and awe-inspiring hero, when in reality she really wanted friends that can relate to her own personal misery. She cried tears of joy when Madoka told her "she wasn't alone anymore", and went into happy mode from realizing that.

I really don't know how anyone can say in that situation her life wasn't miserable or she didn't consider herself miserable.

Originally Posted by Kaijo

As the rule shows us, he's bound by certain things as to what he can and cannot do. By even giving the advice he has, he might be walking the thin line.

And interestingly enough, he held back information so he would have happier, more fulfilled, and more motivated fighters.

The only problem is that we don't know what rules he is bound by explicitly. At the moment they are too ambiguous and vague to make any counters to my point.

Yes, until they found about it. Then the entire system just falls apart really, QB even states that many of the girls who found out had the same reaction of shock, meaning it affected their ability to fight witches properly. "Ignorance is bliss" is not the best form of method to ensure MG will keep them happy, motivated, fighters in the long run, which is how any system is designed to function. By not revealing relevant information to the MGs weaknesses and strengths in order to combat the threat of the witches, he is creating an expendable "meat grinder" of MGs, which ultimately undermines the system he claims to be supporting.

[Decagon]

Originally Posted by Silverwyrm

Many MGs die is a point that has been pushed often in this show, I feel Kyubey probably usually contracts more frequently but he's too caught up trying to get Madoka that he is falling behind his quota. How many we don't know though, I see hundreds said quite often regarding this, is there a line I missed or is this just exaggeration?

To be fair, he's nary spent a week in town and at the very least he's created one MG during that week to replace one who was not optimally maintaining her power (ie, not farming witches).

Originally Posted by Silverwyrm

So lets say witches only target 2-10% of the population. Now lets remove MG's. So a familiar kills someone, becomes a witch. No one to stop it. Now its a witch, it causes mass suicide as in previous episode. No one stops it. Now it spawns a familiar. Now it continues to target random people, probably usually one at a time, but possibly more. Whats its familiar doing? Killing people, becoming a witch, spawning familiars, which do the same. Chain effect.

With nothing to stop and with the information given to us, they will multiply and multiply and the effective amount of people being killed by them will as well. Even if there was one witch in the world, left alone to grow and spawn familiar it would only be a matter of time for us. Given that even the good natured and generally happy friend of Madoka and Sayaka was effected, its probably safe to say they can target anyone.

As a final note, how bizzare of amount of suicide would be required for humanity to say "hmm something supernatural is trying to kill us" and even if they somehow did, how could they even find these invisible creatures much less deal with them?

I think you're caught up in the assumption that this will spiral out of control. If we follow that there is 1 QB and he has maintained the status quo, and you assume he runs around from town to town, then the problem seems rather localized and contained. What happened before QB existed? We simply do not know enough.

[totoum]

Originally Posted by SagaraSouske

the fact remains that society has not noticed their effect.

if the statistics of suicide rate is abnormally high, the society would take notice

I've read those two quotes over and over again and I'm right now completely failing to understand this line of thought so could you clear up a few things for me?

What do you mean by " abnormally high"? If witches have always existed (is there any reason to doubt this?),it's not like there's a "normal" level to compare suicide rates too,and since they've always been there but invisible,why would people notice?

And witches aren't just behind suicides,there's also murders and cases of missing people too,but again,if they've always been there why would the crime rates appear " abnormally high" when you couldn't compare data from a time when there was no witches .

[Silverwyrm]

Originally Posted by Decagon

To be fair, he's nary spent a week in town and at the very least he's created one MG during that week to replace one who was not optimally maintaining her power (ie, not farming witches).


I think you're caught up in the assumption that this will spiral out of control. If we follow that there is 1 QB and he has maintained the status quo, and you assume he runs around from town to town, then the problem seems rather localized and contained. What happened before QB existed? We simply do not know enough.

This is true and I agree with, what about other countries is a big question and something I wonder if will ever really be addressed. Its simple enough for QB to be alone in Japan and contract girls from wherever and they can go stake out territory for hunting in other area's. Him supplying MGs for the world though, seems far fetched.

Thing about the witches though, is what would stop it from spiraling out of control. We know for a fact that

1) Familiar kills someone to become a witch
2) Witches kill people
3) Witches spawn familiars

If we remove the MG's how would they *not* continue to multiply and kill greater amounts, unless there is some twist to it that we are completely unaware of?

[MikeyGrey]

Originally Posted by Kaijo

Speculation again. *sigh*

that is not speculation. throughout the episodes we have only seen 3 MG's being created and all 3 of them just happened to meet QB when they needed a wish. if he was their acquaintance beforehand or if the girls had by their own will sought him out after hearing some rumor of a being capable of helping, it'd be different. QB initiated contact.

in addition, he reminded sayaka when she was alone in the barrier before mami arrived that he can make her MG right away. also, when kyoko & sayaka were fighting, he said that only way to stop them was for madoka to become MG. not to mention the sole reason that he allows madoka to accompany sayaka every night is so that she can also become MG (& that is not speculation either; that little telepathic talk was proof enough) hell, he even tried sayaka to help madoka make the decision to become MG in order to fight off kyoko. hmm... QB also called only madoka for help in the 1st ep. mami certainly wasnt expecting company judging from her expression. er...this list can keep going lol but the main point has been made by now: guy is choosing the contractees with precision.

sure, each of them can be explained away by "he was just trying to help in his own way; she was closest; just an innocent reminder of choice, etc." but it can only fly once or twice. there's a fine line between coincidence & choice. this is clear willful manipulation of crappy circumstance.

he held back information so he would have happier, more fulfilled, and more motivated fighters.

word of choice being "he would have". QB is fully aware that info he's withholding is important; one that MG's would want to know of (since everyone he's told is upset & you dont get upset over something you dont care about). alright, even if he is keeping quiet for their sake, who's to say that he's not modifying the remaining info for their sake as well? then just take out "for their sake" & its not a big leap honestly. if Qb can do one thing to further his goals (good or bad is secondary) why not two? or three? there are no repercussions for his actions; he can just go make more MG's.
frankly, MG's life hangs in the balance so being crystal clear would be the preferred way to go. guilty until proven innocent because on the off-chance the faith is misplaced, victim doesnt get a second chance.

[Kaijo]

Originally Posted by Elestia

Ehhhh... that's the same line of arguing when gundam fans start applying "real world physics" to "gundam physics", it usually doesn't pan out very well, for obvious reasons.

No, you can't compare anime physics of a sci-fi show to reality. But you can apply real world psychology to a show that is trying to portray human psyche and emotions realistically. Ever watch the anime Monster? A lot of the plot depends on the natural human reaction and psychology to drive the plot.

I really don't know how anyone can say in that situation her life wasn't miserable or she didn't consider herself miserable.

Then you don't know people very well. I know plenty of others who are quite content and happy with lone wolf lives. Others aren't really bothered about the duties they have to perform, which no one will thank them for. There really are all types of people in the world.

The problem is not that you don't believe she's 100% happy; she's not, and that much should be obvious. The whole point to this debate that spiraled out, was that Mami was glad for her second life. Watch that scene again in episode 3. Madoka asks what Mami's wish was, which prompts some silence, and prompts Madoka to backtrack and Mami to elaborate.

"Not that I regret doing this. Dying back there would have been worse than living like this. But if I could choose for myself, I would want to make my decision very carefully."

Note that she's not saying she wouldn't have become an MG if she had a choice. That says a lot to me, because if she really felt the MG life was so horrible, she would be like Homura, not wanting others to get involved, and she would have siad: "If I had the opportunity to choose, I probably wouldn't have."

So, even as an MG, Mami doesn't consider her life that bad. At least not bad enough to say she'd rather not be an MG, and wouldn't want others involved. Hence, she's not in the pit of despair you might like us to think.

The only problem is that we don't know what rules he is bound by explicitly. At the moment they are too ambiguous and vague to make any counters to my point.

Well, you can blame the show for not going into it. Gen seems to be doing his best to keep as much as possible in doubt until the very end, even keeping the characters stupid in order for that to happen. If I had been Madoka, I would have asked about what rules he was bound by the moment he mentioned it. She's not the type to ask questions, though.

Originally Posted by MikeyGrey

that is not speculation. throughout the episodes we have only seen 3 MG's being created and all 3 of them just happened to meet QB when they needed a wish.

Kyube met Madoka and Sayaka long before they needed a wish, which disproves the theory.

in addition, he reminded sayaka when she was alone in the barrier before mami arrived that he can make her MG right away. also, when kyoko & sayaka were fighting, he said that only way to stop them was for madoka to become MG. not to mention the sole reason that he allows madoka to accompany sayaka every night is so that she can also become MG (& that is not speculation either; that little telepathic talk was proof enough) hell, he even tried sayaka to help madoka make the decision to become MG in order to fight off kyoko. hmm... QB also called only madoka for help in the 1st ep. mami certainly wasnt expecting company judging from her expression. er...this list can keep going lol but the main point has been made by now: guy is choosing the contractees with precision.

Which is a long way of missing that he has gone two episodes without asking Madoka to contract. And in episode three when they noticed the seed, he didn't say anything about contracting them, either. No, "It's dangerous to go in; you should contract with me quick, so you can take care of it! Mami might not arrive in time!"

Interesting, eh?

sure, each of them can be explained away

That's the thing about scenes that can have more than one valid interpretation. If they do, you can't say for sure that one way is the correct way. That would be speculation. There are several good theories posed by numerous people here that explain events; who are you to say they are all wrong and you are right?

[Decagon]

Originally Posted by Silverwyrm

Thing about the witches though, is what would stop it from spiraling out of control. We know for a fact that

1) Familiar kills someone to become a witch
2) Witches kill people
3) Witches spawn familiars

If we remove the MG's how would they *not* continue to multiply and kill greater amounts, unless there is some twist to it that we are completely unaware of?

Personally, I would like to know what their motivation to kill is, if any. There does not seem like any purpose if witches can overwhelm an area and kill everyone there because they would run of out things to kill, which begs the question of why they haven't just spread out and overwhelmed areas QB cannot patrol. I think from that we can assume that there is something that limits witch growth in areas without MGs or that there is something attracting or limiting them to certain areas where MGs are.

[MikeyGrey]

Originally Posted by Kaijo

Kyube met Madoka and Sayaka long before they needed a wish, which disproves the theory.

sayaka always had the wish (that boy's accident isnt recent) & madoka still doesnt (not that that's stopped QB; he still wants her, wish or not)theory stands.

Which is a long way of missing that he has gone two episodes without asking Madoka to contract. And in episode three when they noticed the seed, he didn't say anything about contracting them, either. No, "It's dangerous to go in; you should contract with me quick, so you can take care of it! Mami might not arrive in time!"

Interesting, eh?

if he keeps singing the same tune, obviously suspicion will rise. to give the illusion of free choice, you cant keep on asking repeatedly. experience is on QB's side.

That's the thing about scenes that can have more than one valid interpretation. If they do, you can't say for sure that one way is the correct way. That would be speculation. There are several good theories posed by numerous people here that explain events; who are you to say they are all wrong and you are right?

by that logic you arent right either. all interpretations must be taken into account and since the high-cost of believing in QB is potential death, the safer road to take is that of suspicion.

[Kaijo]

Or, they behave much like animals, and thus feed on humans. Or perhaps are like vengeful ghosts or demons, who just want to plague humanity.

But we don't know whether their area covers the entire earth, or just this small section of Japan. The show hasn't elaborated on that, much like most everything else. *sigh*

[SagaraSouske]

Originally Posted by totoum

I've read those two quotes over and over again and I'm right now completely failing to understand this line of thought so could you clear up a few things for me?

What do you mean by " abnormally high"? If witches have always existed (is there any reason to doubt this?),it's not like there's a "normal" level to compare suicide rates too,and since they've always been there but invisible,why would people notice?

And witches aren't just behind suicides,there's also murders and cases of missing people too,but again,if they've always been there why would the crime rates appear " abnormally high" when you couldn't compare data from a time when there was no witches .

What i mean is by comparing to normal statistics for suicide rate from explainable causes in a normal society. The unexplainable suicides are generally the minority. When you have a normal person that do not suffer depression, have a successful life and normal family suddenly suicide, then it is hard to explain. If witches were rampant, such occurances were sure to rise. It such unexplainable suicide happens to frequently, then society will notice.

Same goes with murder and missing, when unexplainable cases becomes too frequent, there will be investigation into why they are happening.

If you want me to strictly stick to the context of the world the show is in, where witch 'possibly' always existed, then one can say MGs 'possibly' always existed and the reason for them not escalate into a larger issue that society will notice is due to the MGs limiting the effect of the witches. This I do not dispute.

Several people seem to misunderstand my point. I am not saying to leave the witches alone and let them propagate and continue to kill people. I am saying the current MG system is not a good solution to the problem. It is not one made with best intention in mind. QB does not have the welfare of humans in his best interest. He is just presenting info to the MG candidates in that manner to entice them into contracting with him.

I am also speculating like others that the problem may have been formed in the first place to create the MG system to generate grief seeds. Whatever or where ever QB comes from, he either caused witches to come into existence in the first place and then start offering wishes to contract MGs as a solution or MGs turn into witches and he is creating an vicious cycle to generate grief seeds.

[Kaijo]

Originally Posted by MikeyGrey

sayaka always had the wish (that boy's accident isnt recent) & madoka still doesnt (not that that's stopped QB; he still wants her, wish or not)theory stands.

No, she didn't. Watch episode 2 again, where Sayaka admits to Madoka she doesn't know what to wish for (the rooftop chat). It's not until further into episode 3 that Sayaka begins to realize she could wish for Kamijou, prompting her to ask the question. Madoka doesn't even figure out a wish until shortly before Mami dies!

So neither one had a wish ready when they met Kyube.

if he keeps singing the same tune, obviously suspicion will rise. to give the illusion of free choice, you cant keep on asking repeatedly. experience is on QB's side.

Yeah, interesting that he keeps singing the same tune of wanting to help humanity, eh?

by that logic you arent right either.

Bingo. This is what we've been saying from the beginning. We acknowledge that speculation is speculation. It's fine to have a theory and have some way of thinking; just that we'd like to avoid stating speculation as fact. So, due to overwhelming encouragement, we'll continue pointing out where certain "facts" really are just speculation.

all interpretations must be taken into account and since the high-cost of believing in QB is potential death, the safer road to take is that of suspicion.

Yeah, if only Mami hadn't of believed in Kyube, then she wouldn't have died. She should have been more suspicious.

Or Kyoko! If only she hadn't of believed in Kyube, then she'd be back in her starving to death family, and everything would be peachy.

Well, I suppose you're entitled to your opinion.

Originally Posted by SagaraSouske

Several people seem to misunderstand my point. I am not saying to leave the witches alone and let them propagate and continue to kill people. I am saying the current MG system is not a good solution to the problem.

The problem is, we have no way of knowing if there is a better system. Perhaps Kyube's system is the best, and perhaps it isn't. We won't know until it's over. When the series actually shows us that there is a better method, then we'll have something to talk about.

[Decagon]

Originally Posted by Kaijo

Or, they behave much like animals, and thus feed on humans. Or perhaps are like vengeful ghosts or demons, who just want to plague humanity.

But we don't know whether their area covers the entire earth, or just this small section of Japan. The show hasn't elaborated on that, much like most everything else. *sigh*

Yeah, I like it how these animals know to run to where the hunters are instead of going to the other 99% of populated civilization not covered by MGs . Maybe Japanese have the right amount of meat to fat ratio and are umami from all those special foods they have.

[Silverwyrm]

Originally Posted by Decagon

Personally, I would like to know what their motivation to kill is, if any. There does not seem like any purpose if witches can overwhelm an area and kill everyone there because they would run of out things to kill, which begs the question of why they haven't just spread out and overwhelmed areas QB cannot patrol. I think from that we can assume that there is something that limits witch growth in areas without MGs or that there is something attracting or limiting them to certain areas where MGs are.

This is a good question, so far witches have essentially, seemed more or less mindless creatures that somehow negatively impact the emotions of humans. Really though we know less about witches than we do Kyubey.

Why do witches kill
Do the gain something from killing, or is killing required for them to survive
Can they do more than simply cause/provoke negative emotions
Where do they come from
Are they as or nearly as, intelligent as humans

We don't know any of this, we don't even have any clues aside from the little we have seen. Right now from what we know, witches are bad. It would be interesting if this actually turned out not to be true though, that witches served a greater purpose. or perhaps they just need culling so they don't spin out of control? Pure speculation there, just some thoughts.

[MikeyGrey]

Originally Posted by Kaijo

No, she didn't. Watch episode 2 again, where Sayaka admits to Madoka she doesn't know what to wish for (the rooftop chat). It's not until further into episode 3 that Sayaka begins to realize she could wish for Kamijou, prompting her to ask the question. Madoka doesn't even figure out a wish until shortly before Mami dies!

So neither one had a wish ready when they met Kyube.

there's a difference between not knowing the wish & not having one.

Yeah, interesting that he keeps singing the same tune of wanting to help humanity, eh?

saving humanity? or defeating witches? and the two are not the same. his goal could very well be collecting grief seeds. isnt that speculation?

Bingo. This is what we've been saying from the beginning. We acknowledge that speculation is speculation. It's fine to have a theory and have some way of thinking; just that we'd like to avoid stating speculation as fact. So, due to overwhelming encouragement, we'll continue pointing out where certain "facts" really are just speculation.

facts are facts. their interpretation is speculation

Yeah, if only Mami hadn't of believed in Kyube, then she wouldn't have died. She should have been more suspicious.

she had literally no choice but to either die or agree; not much of a choice

Or Kyoko! If only she hadn't of believed in Kyube, then she'd be back in her starving to death family, and everything would be peachy.

the way it ended... there was at least the option of greater # of family members surviving the other way around. i can hardly call father butchering his family the right way to go.