Episode 74 - The Real Monster

[f00l]

question about grimmer and roberto

Spoiler:

didn't we see roberto's real father in a past episode? i remember there was someone looking for their son who was at the orphanage...but maybe i could be mistaken

[Kinny Riddle]

Originally Posted by f00l

question about grimmer and roberto

Spoiler:

didn't we see roberto's real father in a past episode? i remember there was someone looking for their son who was at the orphanage...but maybe i could be mistaken

Roberto's uncle is none other than the leader of the former Czechoslovakian Secret Police. When he was young, Roberto had asked a young Grimmer to "remember" him, that was one of the few memories Grimmer had of his time at Kinderheim 511. Mentioned around episode 40+.

Johan made Roberto his most faithful servant by entering his deepest consciousness by awakening his most cherished memory at Kinderheim 511 - that of a cup of cocoa, and thus making Roberto easy to control.

[Ratix]

And upon seeing that, it kinda redeems for roberto, such a nice character...

My memory is failing me too, in the earlier episodes where Tenma's friend the psychiatrist(Forgot the name <_<)..

Spoiler:

Interviewed and found a few people who was killing under johan's biddings... Whats the significance of it? It kinda slipped my mind, either it was never really made clear/I don't get it, or I simply forgot if it was ever stated.

[Emil Scherbe]

Originally Posted by Kinny Riddle

Roberto's uncle is none other than the leader of the former Czechoslovakian Secret Police. When he was young, Roberto had asked a young Grimmer to "remember" him, that was one of the few memories Grimmer had of his time at Kinderheim 511. Mentioned around episode 40+.

Episode 47, First half.
Second half which shows Nina's flashback with first appearance of Bonaparta and Capek is more important though.

[Cheesemon]

Hey Emil Scherbe! I remember your name from those Boxoffice threads on ANN. :)

Anyway, I'm happy Soldats finished Monster first. I've hopped from subber to subber while watching Monster, and Soldats' work is the one I enjoyed the most. Good job, guys!

I finally finished watching Monster and it is truly the best anime I've seen. I'm not sure if I like the open-endedness of the ending, but it's a thinker, and maybe I just haven't thought enough about it yet. Hopefully Johan doesn't go raise havok again. ^^; Honestly, even though Johan was one bad apple, I really didn't want to see him killed for some reason . . maybe because I really enjoyed the chase, or that he and Tenma need to live to balance things out.

This is the first anime I have the urge to watch again, maybe because with the long span of time btwn each episode, I forgot a lot of the characters like some of you did. I'm glad no one tried to speedsub it though, Monster isn't a show you can speedsub like Naruto or Bleach. ;)

AND I'm praying that if this show is ever licensed, that they'll dub it in German because some of the stuff like the "Doumo" just felt weird. There's a lot of German-Americans, right?

[ShikaShika]

I'd much rather see this licensed in Germany in that case (which it obviously will be, if it isn't already). This is the only anime I'd ever consider watching a dub of, but I want real Germans and Czechs (assuming that's what they spoke in Prague). I hope they get a German with a Japanese accent for Tenma.

Only problem being that they prolly wouldn't put English subs on it. I don't know how they do it in Germany, do they usually include subs in other languages on their licenses?

[Matrim]

Awesome series! I am not sure if I like the ending that much but in the worst case it's still better than most endings. I just wish more animes had the character development of Monster.

[Kooky]

About the word Fraulein:

Spoiler:

Just to clear it up: Fraulein is just a term meaning "Miss". It's not Nina's real name. I don't think we were ever meant to learn Nina's or Johan's real name. I think the series was actually trying to say that it doesn't matter what your real name is. It matters what you make from the name you currently have. Even if we found out Nina's real name, it wouldn't make any big contribution to her character or anything. She'd still be the person she's made of herself. Some goes for Johan.

Also, about the name Anna:

Spoiler:

I think that's the mother's name. Poppe/Bonaparta wrote a letter that Runge first found and then was given to Tenma. In this letter, it said something along the lines of him taking away the name of the women he loved (which bonaparta admitted to murdering the people who knew the Mother of the twins). The letter said that the women gave two precious jewels (Nina/Johan) and how he'd like to return the women's name to her... Anna. I think that was referring the Mother. I don't remember how Nina got the name Anna? Was it Johan that called her Anna first?

And about Johan's Perfect Suicide:

Spoiler:

Johan's perfect suicide was an attempt to make himself a "fictional" character. He can do this by killing everyone that knows him, and then killing himself. This doesn't exactly make sense to me, but it seems that's what he wanted to do. I think it may be him trying to erase the Monster experiment completely. And because he was the result of the experiment, he chooses to end his goal by erasing himself last in the "perfect suicide." Maybe he was just trying to erase everything that brought upon the Monster?

About the biblical reference of the monster:

Spoiler:

I don't know if this was noted before, but Monster has a large biblical reference to the 7 Headed beast from the bible's Revelations. I've never really read the bible, but I asked someone about it, and I think the reference is very interesting. Maybe someone that knows more about the bible can state some parallels between's monster's plot and that of the bible. The drunk guy that shot Johan said he saw this beast attacking his son, Wim. Johan also said he saw the beast (So I don't know if he was saying the beast was controlling him? Or it was a seperate evil entity altogether?). In the revelations though, the best is thought of as the antichrist that could potentially cause the fall of mankind? Monster also open with the following quote (I added more than what was actually shown:

Rev 13:1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.
Rev 13:2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.
Rev 13:3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.

So Johan is definitely the embodiment of the beast. The whole show the audience as well as the character's in the series marvelled over his pro-manipulative skills. And his does have the skilled to bring people to the end. I think it's kind of funny how throughout the series Johan doesn't really personally kill people. It's more of him commanding others to kill people. Or manipulating people to kill eachother.

About the Failure of Johan's Plan:

Spoiler:

I think there's a common theme in this series: The battle against evil. Throughout the series, we see evil constantly try to push people to do evil. Johan is the leader of causing mayhem and havoc.

However, throughout the series, plans don't succeed because there are people like Nina, Tenma, Runge, Grimmer, etc. who fight for justice and whatnot. Grimmer fights against the monster of rage in him, and at the end dies knowing that he didn't need the Marvellous Steiner to save him. Anna, despite being the one to enter the experiments ended up not being the Monster. Instead she fights for happiness. Tenma treating lives equally, being unable to ever really fire the gun. Eva meant to be an evil bitch, but changes. Etc. Etc. People are constantly fighting the evil about them. And because of these people, we're able to have "happy endings" by forgetting the bad things and striving for the better. Because it's "convenient" for our minds to be happier.

Johan expected Tenma to kill him. But his perfect suicide wasn't so perfect because of the good in the world. People forgive. People move on. So that's why when Johan leaves the hospital at the end, I don't think he left to create more mayhem. I think he realized that even if there is a little monster in all of us, there's still good. He's kind of realized things don't have to mold completely to evil. Once again, he's saved. And it's because of goodness.

I think it's funny that Johan was shot by a drunk man. I mean, the irony of Johan thinking he's got everything figured out: Tenma's going to shoot him. The end. Instead, some drunk guy shoots him. Maybe it shows how strong the connection is with people you love. The father, despite being a complete drunk, still held a strong bond to the son despite high levels of alcohol. Tenma, however, has had a long history of treating all life equally. Plus, I think he had a stronger bond with Johan than Wim, having never met Wim before. This would make it harded to shoot Johan. I think the series also shows how hard it is to just let the things that you love die. Grimmer was so sad that he lost a child. Etc. Etc.

Maybe I'm wrong about Johan changing. Maybe the series is trying to say good revives evil? I don't think so, though.

But, I think the series also shows how we need happiness as well as sadness. Like Nina said, there are some things she'd like to forget, but she wouldn't want to forget them if she'd had to forget all the good things. All these horrible things happened, but good also came out of it. Nina made a bunch of new friends. Tenma isn't so lonely as he was being head neurosurgeon. Eva met Martin, and changed her life. I believe even Johan has friends now. Tenma's forgiven him. I think Runge too, who asked Tenma to save Johan. Same with Nina. All these people have been connected. And it's kind of thanks to Johan.

The Landscape of the End:

Spoiler:

I'd have to agree to those people who said this landscape symbolizes isolation. Loneliness. But I still think there's more. Like, why couldn't Roberto see it, yet Tenma can? I think you can see it if you had something or someone to lose. Which Roberto never really had. Roberto was changed to a complete machine. Johan and Tenma, however, have both endured the pains of watching the people the cared for leave the world. (Tenma probably understand this well, considering that he worked in a hospital where lives are constantly lost) This was the scene where Johan first got seperated from Nina for seperate orphanages. This point on, Johan was completely alone. He slowly was stripped of the people he loved.

I really don't know anything about Tenma's past. I remember there was once a small flashback? I can't remember. I thought we'd find out something about Tenma's childhood, but I guess not. But I know Tenma was very lonely, especially when Eva described her picnic with him.

About Johan's mission and Nina's forgiving:

Spoiler:

I think the only reason to explain why Johan became the monster and not Nina was because it was just in his personality. Maybe he felt guilt and wanted to take away Nina's bad memories and ended up making them his. I've always found it weird that Johan became the result, when it was actually Nina in the experiments.

I think Johan's missions changed a lot throughout the series. He was a genius, and could basically get anything he wanted. Once, he thought it'd be nice to control Shuvald. Another time, he controlled the underground bank or whatever, but he ended up destroying it or something. Johan just had a knack for playing with "a line of ants," or toying with minds and lives. Maybe this was what Bonaparta's experiment was meant to do. But I think when he found that storybook, he started remembering things. And wanted to dig deeper into his roots. And that's when his plans changed. He kind of wanted to delete everything that led up to his creation.

I think when Nina says she forgives him, I think that can be thought of in a lot of ways. Maybe she forgave him for being the one that got to stay with Mother, while she was taken into isolation and experimentation. Maybe she forgave him for killing so many people, for being a "bad" person. Maybe she forgave him for killing her foster parents. Maybe she forgives him for being so selfish and forcing her to remember all her bad memories, including him. I mean, I think Johan blames all of her, one of the few people he should've loved, pain and suffering on himself.

Haha, I think that's enough. I typed a lot. My two cents. But I just love this series so much. This is just what I got from the series. If you guys got other ideas, please share. I open to see what people interpreted from the series. I love Monster. I'm going to miss waiting for it's surprises and suspense.

[ragnarokr]

Some of the best stuff I've seen in a good while.
The overall show was made in a really good way, I can't find a single error in the show, amazing.

I'll stay alert for future Masayuki projects and advice you to do so.

[Fighter Volk]

Spectacular series. Or rather, perfect series. Easily my favorite anime...

Some questions, though.

Spoiler:

What happened after Johan's fiasco at Kinderheim? Something happened and eventually he ended up with the childless couple that fled from West to East Germany - but how did they end up with the family? Also, what happened between Johan and Nina's disappearance from the Dusseldorf hospital and their eventual seperation (so that period of ten years)? I'm sure some of these points were addressed in the series, but as everyone else said, it's been a looooong time and I'm sure I've forgotten quite a bit.

This series will stay with me forever, I'm sure.

[Mumei]

I wasn't sure about one particular question people had, which is

Spoiler:

why Anna and Tenma felt the need to forgive Johan, as well as the 'vision' that Tenma seemd to have had

. I was browsing other forums, and I saw an answer that I think explains it very succinctly:

Spoiler:

Nina and Tenma choosing to forgive Johan is one of the two major, main points of the series (the other being the question of what motivates Johan). If you really don't get it, you might consider rewatching some parts of the show. In a nutshell, they have sympathy for him, believe that the terrible things he does aren't entirely his fault because his childhood made him into a monster, and they don't wish to become murderers (or monsters) as well.

Tenma's vision in the last episode is the conclusion of the other main point, and exposes the last and barest of what we can fathom of Johan's motives. Whether it was 'real' or not is left deliberately ambiguous, like many other times in the series where Johan seems to have supernatural powers - we're never quite sure if he can really do those things or not, and that uncertainty is one of the best parts of the show for me. It is certainly implied that those are Johan's real feelings on the matter, and that he's still torn about his mother's choice.

[Gaia]

I just finished watching MONSTER and... what shall I say... This series was brilliant, in my opinion. Not only the best of it's genre, probably also one of the best ever, together with Rurouni Kenshin Tsuiokuhen... but as said, it's just my opinion.

Spoiler:

There was a lot of fiction in MONSTER, like Kinderheim 511. This place never existed, but there were probably similar "institutions" in old east germany, before the Wall was broken down. I'm pretty sure, that they did experiments on humans, as they did in the 2nd WW. There have existed some insane people, back then...
MONSTER reminded me in parts of my life and let me tell you guys... This is germanys real face. Just add a more massive gap between rich and poor ... a pretty much higher gap... Than you've got this country, how it is today. We've got a lot alcoholics, comparable to Eva Heinemann.
It's hard to belive, that there's an anime with so much details about this country. It was like, watching out of the window or walking across the street... Most likely everything here became dark, for many people. Urasawa did an excellent job, with his research.
About the real MONSTER... Well, I think, it was meant to be a question, we have to think about and should answer for ourselves. Many of you might think, that Johan's/Anna's mother was the real monster, but I belive, that it was mentioned in the last episode, to make the entire story more dramatical.
Just think about it... A mother has to decide, which of her beloved children shall be taken away for human experiments. She loved both, but was forced to fell a decision, in a short ammount of time and under a massive ammount of pressure. There's no way, that such a decision could be taken serious. Well, I still have to think about the story for a while, but thats another point, which makes MONSTER to a superior anime, in my opinion.

Uhm, before I forget. Someone mentioned, that the Professor called Anna by a different name. He added a "Fräulein". It's a prefix equivalent to "Mrs.".

Aesir

[mantidor]

I finished it minutes ago O_O it was unbelievable, all the loose ends and things I didnt get throughout the series get tied up in the end, with still some questions unaswered, it was an undescribable experience!

The real monster had always been Johan for me, because even if life is hard and unfair the desisions you make are yours only, and he decided to spread so much death and havoc. But that actually made it so much more confusing for me at the end, because although he did kill some people directly, most of the time he manipulated others, so were the others the real monsters? or we humans are flawed to begin with, and are not responsible at all for our actions, and rather is our enviroment and growth what makes these desisions? or maybe is just both your own desisions and your enviroment responsibles? and if so which one is more important? argh, so heavy, it really makes you think...

As a note I find funny you people putting spoiler tags, is not that someone who hasnt finished the series is going to surf through the thread of the final chapter

[Ratix]

You'll be surprised <_<.

[mantidor]

haha, sorry but thats your fault ^_^ I avoided these whole forum section like the plague until I finished the last arc.

After the initial "OMG awesome" impression when I actually finished I was surprisingly left with a really heavy melancholic mood afterwards, what happened to the twins in their childhood was very sad.

[Kooky]

Haha, I use spoiler tags for organizational purposes. I like to have my thoughts semi-organized.

There's a timeline on the forum about the series. But this is my little version of it: (For Fighter Volk):

Spoiler:

What happened after Johan's fiasco at Kinderheim?

1) Experiment starts with the meeting of Mother and her husband to create elite children (Eugenics). She becomes impregnated with the twins.
2) Twins go to book readings at the Red Rose Mansion.
3) Mother goes into hiding at the 3 Frogs with twins.
4) Bonaparta comes and forces the Mother to give up a child for the experiments. She chooses Nina.
5) After being locked in a dark room and then watching a mass of people killed, Nina runs away with the permission of Bonaparta.
6) Back at the three frogs, Nina tells Johan her story, he absorbs it as his own.
7) Johan starts killing the people that care for Nina and him.
7) The twins try to cross the border, but collapse there and are picked up by Wolfe.
8) Johan is put in a boy orphanage, Kinderheim 511. And Nina in a different orphanage for girls.
9) The Lieberts adopt the twins and move to Dusseldorf, West Germany.
10) After the Lieberts are killed, Nina shoots Johan at his request.
11) Johan is saved by Tenma.
12) The twins dissapear from the hospital, and are adopted by the Fortners.
13) Johan leaves them to do his own things while Nina lives a normal life with the Fortners. (This is when he takes over the underground bank and kills middle aged couples).
14) Tenma operates on someone and finds out that the "Monster" killing people was the boy he saved 10 years ago.
15) Johan kills Eva's father, framing Tenma for murder. Tenma becomes a fugitive.
15) Tenma finds Nina and tries to protect her from Johan. Johan, however, sucessfully kills the Fortners.
15) Tenma begins his mission to find Johan.

Hope that was accurate, and/or helped.

Aesir, thanks for the info about Germany. I've never really been to Germany, or really know what it's like. So I would've not been able to compare how accurate Monster is to actual Germany. So it's nice to have a native point things out.

[Fighter Volk]

Thanks Kooky, that's perfect!

[Johan_the_Monster]

Awesome series! This is my favorite anime of all time. Thought I have an idea of Johan's wherabouts at the end...

Spoiler:

Perhaps Johan left to go see the end? I think at this point he just wanted to end his life. Plus I don't he would want to see his mother. She gave him up, for Nina, and all that he's gone through...but this was such a great series..!

[Shiryuu]

Originally Posted by ChainLegacy

The last couple of episodes were the greatest in the series. Episode 74, for me, was mostly a peaceful, happy sort of ending one could hope for... until the end. Johan asks Tenma: was his mother trying to protect him, or was he mistaken for his sister? That scene was possibly the most chilling in the entire series....

That was pretty creepy.

Now I'm wondering if Tenma would've saved Johan if he were the one who shot him...

[Kinny Riddle]

Originally Posted by Johan_the_Monster

Awesome series! This is my favorite anime of all time. Thought I have an idea of Johan's wherabouts at the end...

Spoiler:

Perhaps Johan left to go see the end? I think at this point he just wanted to end his life. Plus I don't he would want to see his mother. She gave him up, for Nina, and all that he's gone through...but this was such a great series..!

Don't think it's that dark. After all, Nina has forgiven him already, and even when he thought that her forgiveness came too little too late, he still survived, thanks to Tenma saving him once again.

So now he's probably on a soul searching journey to find the true meaning of life, instead of the darkness and despair on which he thought was the truth of the world, those were fed by the "Monster" inside him.

As there's a "Monster" in every one of us, the "Monster" inside Johan probably won't go away for good, but it'll probably be subdued thanks to Tenma's "noble" act.