2009-08-23, 01:52 | Link #221 | |
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2009-08-23, 03:24 | Link #223 |
Mad Scientist #0000
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Well, but you make characters(at least on the "good guys' side") likable. And if they end up frustrated over her actions is not a good thing. You know many people watchs anime for fun and they don't start analysing the characters. That's why I think they should've made her more understandable. Not to mention many times her actions were controlled by her emotions in contrast with her Light Novel counterpart.
In short: They messed up her the most in the anime. (well, the second one's Layfon then) |
2009-08-23, 05:36 | Link #224 | ||
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In short: They made her a lot better in the anime.
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2009-08-23, 05:52 | Link #225 |
Mad Scientist #0000
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Really? Well, then it's a clear difference in oppinion. I like LN Nina much more.
And you know the authors need to make characters likable both for casual viewers and "pro-analysers" to make it really good. It's like a cake. You can lick the cream and it's delicious, but you can eeat the whole cake and it's still delicious. Otherwise the cake's no good. If the mayority can't understand her actions they label it as unreasonable(or even may artifical). If you can't understand a character you have a harder time for liking it. And we know well the mayority of anime-watchers fit into the 'casual viewer' cathegory. And anyways even if they explain Nina's motives it doesn't mean they really dumbed her down. Quite the opposite, we can understand her clearly and know who she really is. |
2009-08-23, 08:56 | Link #226 |
A blast from the past
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You should post less, then. Just saying.
But, in all seriousness, how can you claim ANY character in the anime to be complex? I really do not see where you're coming from. They're all pretty plain, if you ask me (Nina is an overachiever, Layfon is a fighter looking for purpose, Felli is an emotionless doll who ends up finding some feelings, and so on). Doesn't make it any less fun, but complex? I just don't see it. Now, if you cannot keep it civil, don't even bother to respond, ok?
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2009-08-23, 13:10 | Link #227 | |
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A lot of the show has to do with the relationship between Nina and Layfon. Him, growing up in a harsh life and him developing skills in order to maintain the Orphanage but in doing so he believes that anything he does is justified, this later comes in conflict with Nina whose views on the military arts is more noble and idealized. Nina generally at start doesn't understand him in many ways and he doesn't understand her and likewise the views of those in the Orphanage who felt betrayed once they found out about his illegal activities. Also Nina views on strength. She wishes strength to protect the city and believes that weakness is a sin. This comes more into play when she compares her power with Layfon. She starts doubting if she is in fact strong enough to protect the city and if she isn't then doesn't that make her weak? This is when she starts training secretly but her personality makes her put too much pressure on her own self and she often tries to take on these things by herself. Even then she is constantly trying to understand Layfon and others. She tries to question Layfon a number of times only to get evaded or he outright misrepresents his motives. This put her in a precarious situation since she has to try to balance the best for her team and her own feelings. She certainly didn't hate Layfon and realized the city needed his power but also felt conflicted by if the fact that his beliefs could cause problems later on if true and her own feelings are betrayal because of the revelation. The Student Council President unlike her was willing to employ any method to save the school but then again we see with Dein Dee story that employing any method doesn't always lead to the best results. In this story we see that while having strong ideals she still warned Dee in order to try to save him by convincing him to stop taking the drug. She more than willing to give him a chance to redeem himself instead of turning him in without the opportunity for him to decide. The SCP was imo also more than willing, at least at the start to use Layfon as only a tool while Nina wanted to be a friend and for him to rely on them as a team. Nina also puts a lot of the blame on herself and wonders if her actions were truly right many times. We see this in her talk with Leerin and then again at the end of the series. Both Nina and Layfon become stronger people when they rely on each other inside of take things on alone. This is kind of ruined by the power ranger ending but I digress. Layfon is very similar to her but I don't want to go into to much about him as this isn't his thread and that be another few paragraphs... Felli was never an emotionless doll. She just couldn't properly express her emotions on her face. She did however have many issues with being used and that why she refused to help and often times half-assed her skills so people wouldn't realize how powerful she was. She had a few other things about her character but that's the meat of it. I also don't want to get into her too much. I pulled this all out of my head after not watching the show since it ended so I might have missed something and I shorten some analyzes down to bare bones but still Nina is a fairly complex character. If you honestly believe that she just an overachiever then I think you might have slept through the series.
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2009-08-23, 13:27 | Link #228 |
Mad Scientist #0000
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Hoho! Hold your fangs! If someone hasn't noticed it or has percieved otherwise it doesn't mean he or she put lesser effort to understand the character. It's just that everyone sees the world differently. Like Nina had a hard time to understand Layfon at first.
And even if theyx haven't spent as much time and energy to understand the characters then it again doesn't mean they had little interest in it or something like that. As I said everyone sees the world differently. It also means they put their effort notice other things for example. Like the consistency of the story, the plot itself or simply the whole Regios world. That's all. Please don't jump to conclusions that fast. |
2009-08-23, 13:42 | Link #229 |
A blast from the past
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I still don't see what's so complex about Nina, even after that overly long wall of text - you simply outlined what anyone who watched the series saw. But if you do really want to over-analise her to death and find hidden meanings to her actions or whatnot, then be my guest, bub.
Don't be disheartened when not everyone agrees with your interpretations, tho (hint: I don't. I still find her character very straightforward, and not all that deep or complex or whatever it is you're trying to prove here - not to say I don't find her interesting, or a nice character; one thing does not negate the other), or even not find your points terribly interesting - and, at least, try to be less nasty about such disagreements, in the future. I don't really care for childish bantering, myself - unless it's in good spirits, which was clearly not the case with your post. Also, I'll be the judge on what I consider a worthwhile post, thank you very much. See ya - or not.
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2009-08-23, 14:05 | Link #230 | |
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This is the problem with opinions people believe that reasoning, logic and examples are trumped by it so they hid behind it whenever they feel the need. I gave you my reasoning and you gave me "I don't agree" If you spent as much time coming up with that as analyzing characters in the shows it's no wonder you don't find anything complex about her.
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2009-08-23, 15:09 | Link #231 |
Mad Scientist #0000
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Well, everyone's deffinition on complex characters differ a bit the very least.
Example:For somone who watched many harem animes even the two dimensional characters could be complex(the very least more complex than characters only defined by their archetype). While for somone who read many serious novels or anything with really developed and difficult characters it means something really outstanding. Actually Layfon surely is a complex character or at least clearly not definable. He's a serious fighter with mean love for Military Arts and believes everything he done was the best choice. And he tends to sulk and don't want mto fight because of his failure. He's trapped between two really differing desires. But enough of him. Let's talk about Nina. She's our "paladin" character. Honor above anything else, clear ideal, serious determination, mean thinking about her actions and correctly freflects on them. That's Nina's outer layer of personality. But it's something she forced on herself. The fairy's sacrafice had a great effect on her and she tries with all her might to help anyone she can. And perhaps she sees weakness as a sin, but it's only natural for a "paladin" and she really don't like failures. As I said she forces herself. She wants to discover every secret of the worldand travel every part of it. But her responsibilites binds her on Zuellni. She's much more childish than she looks like. She's similar to Layfon on that her love/desire and her determination/responsibility conflicts with each other. So she's really not as simple as she seems. But maybe she's not complex enough for you. For me(who watched over dozens of harem animes) she's is. |
2009-08-23, 15:14 | Link #232 |
A blast from the past
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Slick_rick, your reasoning holds no water. You have not listed any kind of hint for complexity or depth, you simply outlined whatever happened to the character during the course of the series. I didn't say that as my opinion. I stated it as a fact - the matter about opinions came later on. Like I said before, you're welcome to over-analise any and everything, but don't be mad when others don't really see all the "hidden" layers of meaning your superior analytical mind does. They most likely just don't care enough to.
And my usual M.O.? I've only discussed with you once, and if I remember right, you did not provide much fun there, either - instead, you went on wild tangents like you do now, trying to make yourself sound oh so intelligent for coming up with different theories for characters' motives and whatnot, but ended up failing miserably. I thought you wanted to discuss, and maybe had gotten more civil, but your points don't really merit such a thing. I save my analises for shows that really allow themselves such treatment, like Ergo Proxy, Paranoia Agent, Eden of The East, Cross Game, Bakemonogatari and the like. Standard action fare is meant for fun. Not word games. But you're welcome to disagree - like you most likely will. I really don't care to argue for the sake of finding out who's got the biggest... argument. So, I'll leave you to it.
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2009-08-24, 20:29 | Link #233 |
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If you're saving your analysis to other shows, then you're more or less admitting that you didn't bother to give much consideration into the character's complexity. Previous posts carry enough detail for one to see the multi-dimensional personality, but I shall write a couple of things based on them.
So we have Nina, who at first could be written off as the lawful good paladin leader of this RPG party, there are characters like that with shallow reasoning. However, we're presented with her past and motives, then her interaction with certain individuals. She leans her alignment at time: to Chaotic Good during Dinn Dee matter, to Lawful Neutral after Layfon's secret is uncovered and finally to Chaotic Neutral about the haikizoku issue. She definitely doesn't act solely on just one principle, she has priorities: Folk, fairies, friends and herself. Based on how the confronting problem presents itself, she'll bend either the rules or her relationship. But there's always a solid reason if not reasoning behind her reactions to those, be it logic or emotion. She stops and thinks when she has the chance (about Layfon, Dinn Dee, city's future) but may act on the impulse as well, especially under stress. (Layfon's secret, haikizoku, match vs first platoon) Thus, she feels more human and realistic than your average anime character. (watched some of the shows you mentioned and some of them have quite synthetic lead characters to be honest) |
2009-08-24, 21:00 | Link #234 | ||
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In all honesty, feel free to continue your discussion. I was only stating my opinion on the matter, after being slighted for a joke. Now, if you sincerely believe the characters in the shows I mentioned are more vanilla than the ones in CSR... well, we'll just have to agree to disagree, mate.
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2009-08-24, 22:21 | Link #235 |
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Personally guys, people are entitled to his or her own opinion you know. One can think that an anime needs to be analyzed from top to bottom for the characters, while the others can think it's just need to be enjoyed since the characters are quite straightforward with how they act. What makes them complex or not is actually us, except when, well... Let's say it involve yanderes *CoughKaraNoKyoukaiCough* and some others really bipolar personality and actions.
It doesn't change the interesting moments of the series, really. You don't need to convince a person to think that a character in it is complex to make this series, say, unique. Regios is unique in my eye because it can combine fantasy-like RPG element to make a good series in the run. (Well, the end beg to differ, but hey, at least I enjoyed LOL-ing hard here!) Me, I personally think that Regios both LN and anime is quite straightforward in terms of how their actions speak their personality. Crusade is a different matter from what I read from spoilers though. *Begs ackem sensei to search for the novel these days :'c* But it is my opinion and others can disagree and state their opinion in the exchange. But forcing a view is a different matter
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2009-08-25, 00:54 | Link #236 |
Mad Scientist #0000
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Right. I watched many harem-animes for just pure LoL-ness. It had really bland characters and hardly any developmentson them, but the extremely hillarious scenes were the reason I watched them.
It's not the complexity of characters that decides a show's enjoyment factor. But I have to disagree in one thing. Nina wasn't that easily understandable, because we wouldn't have that much debates about her character. And I think the anime-Nina and the LN-Nina is different because the later is my favourite in the Light Novels. P.S: I would love to read Regios Crusade in english. Dixerio is an interesting character, even if he's "selfish" and probably blinded by revenge. |
2009-08-25, 05:15 | Link #237 |
A blast from the past
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And that, as they say, is that. There's not a more subjective topic than what you take out of a work of fiction... and no more recurring argument than "you just didn't pay enough attention".
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2009-08-26, 19:46 | Link #238 | ||
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I didn't say 'vanilla', I said synthetic. Which may involve incoherence, unjustifiable actions, non-sense motives or plain stupidity. Just making it different doesn't mean it's granted value. |
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2009-08-27, 00:07 | Link #239 |
Mad Scientist #0000
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sorry, but there's a difference between complex and complete.Nina having explained background and else means for character development/completition. The only thing I could bring up her "dual desire", her real personality and the "make-up" she use almost always, but they're not as much distinguished and I guess the LN didn't built much on it.
In conclusion:LN Nina is a well-created character. I am uncertain about the anime version, but she was interesting too. Wether she's complex or not it'sdepends on personal viewpoint.. |
2009-08-27, 04:35 | Link #240 | |||
A blast from the past
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I simply don't think the character(s) in this show deserve such scrutiny, and no amount of tail wagging is gonna change that, when all you guys can present are what the show itself showed us. Sorry. Quote:
I didn't see any development, really. She was basically the same character at the beginning and end of the show - I would, honestly, not categorize any of the characters in the show as well-developed, but that's also a speculative and completely subjective point. And I do not want people accusing me of flame-bait again. Quote:
But, really, I never intended to have such a long-winded discussion. And it should be obvious that not everyone agrees with your points, taking into account the past history of this sub-forum. So, I don't think singling me out is the best idea, either.
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