[Game] Umineko no Naku Koro ni - Ep. 3 Banquet of the golden witch

[Matrim]

Spoiler for reply to Exilon:

Indeed, I noticed that too, but I have a completely different question. ...If you take a look at the timeline, Eva says she put the receipt there BEFORE the 6 bodies were found (if memory doesn't fail me.). ... Notice the contradiction here? Why would she put a receipt on the door to prove someone is guilty if nothing had happened to make her suspicious? ...which means, obviously Eva knows something we do not know. No one seems to have noticed this loophole in the story, though, and it really bugs me.

I actually did notice this discrepancy (that Eva was that suspicious of Natsuhi even before any bodies were found) and it was one of the reasons I thought Eva was a likely culprit...I guess I forgot to include it in my wall of text above. Eva even asks Genji and Kumasawa about possible secret exits from the study before trying her receipt gambit. It just doesn't make sense. If Eva really just had a hunch and put the receipt on a whim, as she claims later, why didn't she just follow Natsuhi into the study to see for herself how the old bastard was doing? In fact Eva is the one who proposes that the missing six people might be in the study, while Natsuhi thinks they might be taking a walk outside.

Possibly because it's when all the family is reunited. I believe it's mentioned in the episode.

It is, but I still think it was a weird behaviour from Rosa. People usually avoid potentially embarrassing topics at such dinners and this is Rosa who is constantly made fun of by her siblings. Or at least they used to do it in the past. Also, isn't it weird she would want to thank someone for giving Maria an umbrella when any responsible adult should have dragged Maria inside (as Battler says he would have done) or at least woken Rosa? Maybe I am reading too much into this incident.

More rambling tomorrow, I am too sleepy now.

[Nadeor]

Yeah I noticed about Beatrice's TIPS as well
What we came up as a solution would be that Beatrice faked the 'Witches-are-afraid-of-bullets' thing

[k//eternal]

I actually buy a lot of the meta-world "rules" at face value, although they obviously don't apply from an anti-fantasy perspective. Maybe this is a poor practice on my part... however, in this particular case, I think there's a much stronger argument for faking a resistance than faking a weakness, because... well, why would you do the latter?

My reasoning for accepting the meta-world rules given is perhaps a little silly, but think of it like this: a LOT of Ep. 3 was spent in the meta-world, and if the audience doesn't potentially "learn" something from part of the game, that part is effectively useless, which would make a huge chunk of Ep. 3 a complete red herring.

I think the main point of Ep. 3 (although I don't doubt there are scraps of AF-world info we can glean from it) is that we gain knowledge of the meta-world parameters, for whatever reason. It's possible to me that the final solution WILL involve magic, but that this will not be central to the murders; otherwise, why tell us so much about the meta-world? It's also possible that the parameters of the meta-world are some kind of metaphor for how the AF-world culprit operates (this view is suggested in Ep. 1).

[Matrim]

Spoiler for ep.3, musings about murder weapons and Nanjo's opninion on them:

I asked a friend of mine who is in her last year of studying to become a doctor of medicine and she told me that any half-decent doctor should be able to make a distinction between a stake wound and gun wound. Considering that Nanjo could not (or as I suspect would not) make this distinction about the victims of the first twilight and IIRC about some other victims too, I think this hints quite heavily that Nanjo is very suspicious and also casts doubt on his other verdicts regarding time of death and cause of death and whether people are dead at all.

however, in this particular case, I think there's a much stronger argument for faking a resistance than faking a weakness, because... well, why would you do the latter?

I agree.

It's possible to me that the final solution WILL involve magic, but that this will not be central to the murders; otherwise, why tell us so much about the meta-world? It's also possible that the parameters of the meta-world are some kind of metaphor for how the AF-world culprit operates (this view is suggested in Ep. 1).

Or it could be a combination of the two - Beato appearing and talking to people certainly qualifies as a sort of magic if we assume she is not just a 19th person but can also visit the meta world, turn back time, etc. But in the same all the stakes, goatheads, siestas and so on could time be mere objects, personified in the version presented from Beato to Battler.

[Exilon]

I agree with what's said above :P

Spoiler for nanjo:

For me, Nanjo has been suspicious right from the very beginning. The fact that he is Kinzo's long time friend, his silence at times, among other factors (as an amazing loophole in a certain part of episode 1) lead me to believe that, if he's not the mastermind, it' he's at the very least an accomplice, and possibly he is being blackmailed, for example.

But in the same all the stakes, goatheads, siestas and so on could time be mere objects, personified in the version presented from Beato to Battler.

I strongly believe this, for many reasons; obviously for their names (siesta's names are incredibly obvious as they are named after guns, stakes being real stakes), which also might explain why Beato (at least for episode 2), never attacks herself but summons this "furniture" (= weapons.).

[Proto]

From the evil overlord list

Originally Posted by 220

# Whatever my one vulnerability is, I will fake a different one. For example, ordering all mirrors removed from the palace, screaming and flinching whenever someone accidentally holds up a mirror, etc. In the climax when the hero whips out a mirror and thrusts it at my face, my reaction will be "Hmm...I think I need a shave."

[Exilon]

And that could actually explain some events in EP2 and EP3.
The human culprit is pretending to be beatrice, so it even pretends "fake" weaknesses. Does it make sense?

..I laughed a little at that, though.

[bigemperor]

I have a question that is killing me

Beato is the endless witch but when eva resolve the epitaph se became the endless witch and beato become a normal witch, is this real or all was part of beato performance?
Also in the future eva give his title of endless witch to ange that’s why in the golden land she resist all the magic that was throw to her but BEATO CONTINUE TO BE THE ENDLESS WITCH?

I am pretty confused about these XD

[k//eternal]

I get the impression that you have to take that Beato and meta-Beato as slightly separate, kind of like how Battler dies every game but is still there arguing in the meta world.

R-Beato (Rokkenjima, i.e., in-game) loses her title and powers, but meta-Beato exists outside the timeline. My guess is that a witch can be created within the timeline and, using her powers, can leave it; however, every time the game starts, a new R-Beato is "generated", like everyone else in the game. So you can have a succession of R-Beato -> Eva -> Ange within the timeline, and Ange then goes back in time with her powers.

It's kind of the same question as how Virgilia died, but continues to exist outside the game. Beato loses her powers within the game, but continues to be a witch outside it.

You can also see a disparity between meta-Beato and R-Beato in their histories; the former was apparently made into a witch by Lambda, while the latter learned her abilities from Virgilia.

To put it another way, it seems like the connection between Rika and Bern that existed in Higurashi in that it isn't entirely direct.

[Klashikari]

That is not possible. the in-game beato does interact with both in-game and metaworld characters.
Episode 3 shows pretty well that Beato is jumping back and forth from both worlds.

Rather, there is a "save state" in each chessboard. That will dictate the current "status" of X or Y character, while the Meta world isn't affected.
Virgilia's death but yet "alive" status was hinted to be Beato's own doing though she didn't expect that she could get back from the meta world into the chessboard. her range of action was also limited.
As for Ange, since she was approved from the future, she became a witch, hence she is not bound by the rules of a supposed timeline, since the Metaworld isn't bound to "a chessboard", therefore, several endless witches can exist at the same given time, provided they don't belong to the same chessboard. (That is extremely similar to the "Throne of Heroes" of Fate/Stay Night).

And no, the fact Lambda was required for Beato's powers don't contradict with the fact she succeeded from Virgilia.
In order to be a witch, one needs to succeed in a tribe, but ALSO got the approval from another witch tribe.
These are not exclusive to a specific "world".

[Avisch]

Originally Posted by Exilon

I agree with what's said above :P

Spoiler for nanjo:

For me, Nanjo has been suspicious right from the very beginning. The fact that he is Kinzo's long time friend, his silence at times, among other factors (as an amazing loophole in a certain part of episode 1) lead me to believe that, if he's not the mastermind, it' he's at the very least an accomplice, and possibly he is being blackmailed, for example.

Spoiler for reply:

By the end of this episode we find that Nanjo has a son. Blackmail is an open possiblity.

You can notice Episode 1 giving hints to Episode 2. In Episode 1 the chapter with the first twilight opens with Natsuhi waking up. It mentions her mirror that becomes important near the end of Episode 2.

So maybe this will follow suit.

[Exilon]

Originally Posted by Avisch

Spoiler for reply:

By the end of this episode we find that Nanjo has a son. Blackmail is an open possiblity.

You can notice Episode 1 giving hints to Episode 2. In Episode 1 the chapter with the first twilight opens with Natsuhi waking up. It mentions her mirror that becomes important near the end of Episode 2.

So maybe this will follow suit.

...I believe that works both ways. Many things I learned on EP2 worked for EP1 and many guesses that were impossible for EP1 worked on EP2.
>

[k//eternal]

Originally Posted by Klashikari

That is not possible. the in-game beato does interact with both in-game and metaworld characters.
Episode 3 shows pretty well that Beato is jumping back and forth from both worlds.

And her status within the game is dictated by what's happened to her there. Maybe I explained my thought badly.

I think I like the way you put it better, although it's kind of the same thing.

[Mercurius]

I don't know which was more grueling, the second to last chapter, or this thread... Haha, I kid, I kid.

Main reason I went through the entire thread, was to see if anyone shared some of my (IMO big) observations:

Spoiler for ep3:

Kyrie!!
She was soo awesomely badass, with a very compelling backstory to boot. To pwn a Sister at her own sin is beyond words. Still don't understand the miscalculations that were pointed out.

Unwarranted faith
Why is it always mentioned that the Police will definitely figure out the culprit once the storm clears?? And yet, for all three episodes, the Police have figured out squat about the culprit of the Mysterious Rokkenjima Mass Murder. I'll need to go back and check, but I think there's a connection between who gets killed and whoever mentions this phrase.
Baseless speculation: The Police are the new Yamainu and are responsible for the murders, while conveniently finding no evidence about who the killer is.

Definitions
According to my notes, Beatrice seems to imply that a Witch = Human + Magic. To deny witches, you have to deny magic? Or only the concept of an Endless Witch can be denied?

07151129
What if we put it to a mirror?
07151129 becomes:
92115170 and if we force them into letters:
P R I I S I T O
That's about as far as I got with the numbers. I don't really think it's a date, but not sure what else it could be.

Beatrice
Obviously planned the whole North Wind and Sun tactic once Virgilia mentioned it, if not earlier. I'm thinking in the final showdown with Eva-Beatrice, she didn't actually red-text any of the truth, but merely explained her plan to Eva-Beatrice, Ronove and Virgilia. This is where Virgilia plays along, as she wants to keep things fair. However, this would negate one of Battler's biggest gains this episode: the knowledge that it IS possible to deny all magic.
Alternative theory: Virgilia, Eva-Beatrice, and even Ronove are made-up by Beatrice to confuse Battler. Highly unlikely, but something I considered after the twist in the end.

Eva
This is the big one. Did anyone else but me notice that Eva looked rather L5-ish right as she pointed the gun at Battler at the end? Her eyes seemed vacant. I really don't think that was Eva, but the killer/delusionary agent at work.

Hmm, I'm making mostly visual observations in a sound novel. I can't help but feel that's got me at a bit of a disadvantage.

Can't wait for Ep. 4 to utterly crush the value of all the above . As our favorite defense attorney in training likes to say: "Ah, it's all useless..."

[Bern-chan]

I have a random question. How come Ronove is spelled as ロノウェ, and Eva-Beatrice is spelled as エヴァ-ベアトリーチェ、the 'v' sound in both of their names sounds the same in English as far as I can tell. Which is also confusing as non-witch Eva is spelled えば, referring to the ba/va and not the katakana/hiragana.

[Proto]

Well you can't have a 'va' in hiragana as that it doesn't exist there, furthermore there are no Japanese words which use it. Conversely in Katakana you would be able to give it it's 'correct' writing by using a proper kana v.

More so, in katakana's Ronove's case instead of it giving a v sound, a u + small vocal without the double points gives a 'w' sound. So it's more like Ronowe (A tie in for Genji Ronoue, I'd suppose)

[Bern-chan]

Thanks, that's interesting to know. =O
I'm not criticising, but now I'm wondering why they didn't spell it as Ronowe in the translation patch then. >.<

[chronotrig]

This is why.

[Proto]

Ronove, as it is is the name of a marchis of hell according to Christian demonology. Curiosly enough another official name for him is Ronwe

PS: I claim offside play from chronotrig

[Klashikari]

That is because Ronove is the spelling of the said demon. Ryukishi didn't invent that word at all, it is from the lessen key of Salomon.