(L) Magi - Labyrinth of Magic [manga]

[aohige]

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

It's stupid in your opinion. And no, you don't have the right to ask me to drop it unless I'm posting something that goes against the rules of the board. Otherwise, if you don't like what I post, don't read it (how many times did I say that already?).

You should drop it.

More deflection?

I guess if you're resorting to this, the argument is over, mate?
I said it's "stupid", because your point had nothing to do with what Ootaka actually published, it was misinformed assumption based on scanlation.
You used a completely irrelevant piece of information to try and reinforce your argument, which I found stupid.

(also, no, asking is not telling you to STFU, there's a clear difference between requesting and armchair modding.)

[anonfr]

Originally Posted by aohige

I believe Herc was considered a demi-god in its own mythological context.
I could be wrong, but we need a greek expert to shed more light on that.

Well that actually has conflicting myths. He was a demi god, he was always a Demi god in every story, but there's versions where after he completed his 12 labors he was raised to full godhood status. Those versions usually end with him Guarding the gates of olympus, or guarding something else. It's kind of twisted.

[Fwarlord]

Originally Posted by CBredbeard

I disagree. Kings aren't kings because they have incredible power. That's certainly part of it, but the ability to rally and lead others through anything, good times and bad, that's what makes for good kings. He doesn't need to be able to over-power everything personally.

"King" is just a concept with many definition. Even in the manga itself, there's no exact definition what is a "King". There're many way for someone to be consider as a "King", you can't say your "King" is true king and other's isn't. Especially, those who read Campione will strongly disagree with you.

[CBredbeard]

Originally Posted by Fwarlord

"King" is just a concept with many definition. Even in the manga itself, there's no exact definition what is a "King". There're many way for someone to be consider as a "King", you can't say your "King" is true king and other's isn't. Especially, those who read Campione will strongly disagree with you.

In the context of this manga, a king is fairly well defined. We haven't seen a king that was a loner or unable to lift people's spirits and compel them to follow. Not to mention that at no point whatsoever was the king's ability to kick ass a factor in determining their worth.

Hakuei's ideals were the center point of her kingliness.

Alibaba's selflessness is what really inspired Aladdin to follow him (even if there were a few hick-ups/bribes).

Kouha gathered people that were the bottom wrung of society who followed him because he accepted them and gave them a place to be.

There hasn't been a single person in the manga that was able to strong arm others into following them. Even Sinbad for all of his achievements seems to have gathered a following because he's just likable like that.

[anonfr]

Originally Posted by CBredbeard

In the context of this manga, a king is fairly well defined. We haven't seen a king that was a loner or unable to lift people's spirits and compel them to follow. Not to mention that at no point whatsoever was the king's ability to kick ass a factor in determining their worth.

Hakuei's ideals were the center point of her kingliness.

Alibaba's selflessness is what really inspired Aladdin to follow him (even if there were a few hick-ups/bribes).

Kouha gathered people that were the bottom wrung of society who followed him because he accepted them and gave them a place to be.

There hasn't been a single person in the manga that was able to strong arm others into following them. Even Sinbad for all of his achievements seems to have gathered a following because he's just likable like that.

We haven't seen a king that's a loner?

What's Hakuryuu? Not a loner?

[aohige]

Originally Posted by Fwarlord

"King" is just a concept with many definition. Even in the manga itself, there's no exact definition what is a "King". There're many way for someone to be consider as a "King", you can't say your "King" is true king and other's isn't. Especially, those who read Campione will strongly disagree with you.

Originally Posted by CBredbeard

In the context of this manga, a king is fairly well defined. We haven't seen a king that was a loner or unable to lift people's spirits and compel them to follow. Not to mention that at no point whatsoever was the king's ability to kick ass a factor in determining their worth.

Yeah, because "king" is actually a quality defined in the context of the manga.
As seen in the latest Sinbad side story, Djinns have a clear standard they measure one to be worthy of kinghood. (Dracone did not pass)

Hakuryuu obviously hasn't exemplified a leadership quality, but he does have a strong desire to achieve a goal.
Which, from the above chapter mentioned, seems to be a necessary quality to be defined a "king", at least by the Djinns.

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by aohige

Yeah, because "king" is actually a quality defined in the context of the manga.
As seen in the latest Sinbad side story, Djinns have a clear standard they measure one to be worthy of kinghood. (Dracone did not pass)

Hakuryuu obviously hasn't exemplified a leadership quality, but he does have a strong desire to achieve a goal.
Which, from the above chapter mentioned, seems to be a necessary quality to be defined a "king", at least by the Djinns.

We don't know if each Djinn doesn't have his or her own standards. Leraje cared about fidelity, but maybe that's just a personal quirk rather than ideas about kinghood.

Then again, you may have a point about goals, since "what will you do with power" looks like a rather standard question.

[CBredbeard]

Originally Posted by anonfr

We haven't seen a king that's a loner?

What's Hakuryuu? Not a loner?

What makes Hakuryuu a king? That hasn't been answered in the manga. Zagan may have only picked him by process of elimination. And even if he did have a reason to pick Hakuryuu, it was probably not because he was so amazing and powerful.

[anonfr]

Originally Posted by CBredbeard

What makes Hakuryuu a king? That hasn't been answered in the manga. Zagan may have only picked him by process of elimination. And even if he did have a reason to pick Hakuryuu, it was probably not because he was so amazing and powerful.

I'm really bothered by how you keep deflecting your own points. First you say a king needs to be able to gather people, and that being amazing and powerful doesn't matter. Now you say being amazing and powerful is important.

And Hakuryuu is a King because Zagan picked him. That's the sort of point of the king candidate system.

aohige already answered that part of the question. I just wish you could keep your points straight without contradicting yourself. You only consider one part of the Manga's context whilst completely ignoring other parts of it's context. Like you only take in or accept half the definitions presented.

[aohige]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

We don't know if each Djinn doesn't have his or her own standards. Leraje cared about fidelity, but maybe that's just a personal quirk rather than ideas about kinghood.

Then again, you may have a point about goals, since "what will you do with power" looks like a rather standard question.

Point taken on the Djinn's preference.
I think there may be two separate elements though, "the qualification of a king" and "the Djinn's preference" are likely two different things.
In case of Leraje, I'm guessing both princes had the quality of a king, and she chose between the two out of preference.

[anonfr]

Originally Posted by aohige

Point taken on the Djinn's preference.
I think there may be two separate elements though, "the qualification of a king" and "the Djinn's preference" are likely two different things.
In case of Leraje, I'm guessing both princes had the quality of a king, and she chose between the two out of preference.

I agree. I think there's certain Standardized qualities that need to be met, but I think preference also comes into play.

Like with Kouha, both him and Kouen met the standards, but the preference of the Djinn picked Kouha.

[AkitoW013]

I wonder why king Solomon tasked the djinns to choose several different king candidat, Does he want to make them fight and the last one alive will be the one and only king of the world he created or because of others reasons ?

[CBredbeard]

Originally Posted by anonfr

I'm really bothered by how you keep deflecting your own points. First you say a king needs to be able to gather people, and that being amazing and powerful doesn't matter. Now you say being amazing and powerful is important.

1.) I didn't say Hakuryuu was amazing and powerful. You misread.

And Hakuryuu is a King because Zagan picked him. That's the sort of point of the king candidate system.

2.) We don't know why he did and he's the only one in the manga to acknowledge him in this regard.

aohige already answered that part of the question. I just wish you could keep your points straight without contradicting yourself. You only consider one part of the Manga's context whilst completely ignoring other parts of it's context. Like you only take in or accept half the definitions presented.

I'm not ignoring other parts and I am not contradicting myself. The original point was that "kings" were not "kings" because they were overpowered. Being a badass, being super-strong, these are not qualities that have been acknowledged as relevant to kings. It may go without saying that these traits are desirable, but we haven't had at any point someone go up to a "king" and say "You're super strong, I'll follow you forever!"

Now, I wouldn't be surprised if there were people like that in the setting, especially Djinn who for all of their wisdom act shallow and petty. Especially the manly Djinn like Baal, Astaroth, or Barbatos, they may admire personal strength and power. However, that is not something that has occurred in the manga up to this point.

Originally Posted by AkitoW013

I wonder why king Solomon tasked the djinns to choose several different king candidat, Does he want to make them fight and the last one alive will be the one and only king of the world he created or because of others reasons ?

Not the Djinn. The Magi are the ones picking Kings.

[anonfr]

Originally Posted by CBredbeard

1.) I didn't say Hakuryuu was amazing and powerful. You misread.



2.) We don't know why he did and he's the only one in the manga to acknowledge him in this regard.



I'm not ignoring other parts and I am not contradicting myself. The original point was that "kings" were not "kings" because they were overpowered. Being a badass, being super-strong, these are not qualities that have been acknowledged as relevant to kings. It may go without saying that these traits are desirable, but we haven't had at any point someone go up to a "king" and say "You're super strong, I'll follow you forever!"

Now, I wouldn't be surprised if there were people like that in the setting, especially Djinn who for all of their wisdom act shallow and petty. Especially the manly Djinn like Baal, Astaroth, or Barbatos, they may admire personal strength and power. However, that is not something that has occurred in the manga up to this point.

1. I didn't misread. You said Hakuryuu wasn't amazing and powerful, but in earlier posts you said a king doesn't need to be amazing and powerful. You added importance to something you previously claimed was unimportant. I don't get that.

2. The rules of the manga itself state that anyone who gets selected by a Djinn as their chosen king is a king candidate. He doesn't need to be selected by anyone else.

You haven't kept a single argument straight since I've started debating you.

Also, other than Sinbad and his undeveloped 7 seas alliance, none of the other Kings candidates we've interacted are actually proper "kings" of their own country. Not any from the Ren family, not Muu, Not Alibaba, not any of them. Most of them will probably never be proper Kings either.

We don't really have a benchmark for what makes a king, since it's susceptible to a lot of variables. The only baseline of reference we have is that anyone chosen by a Djinn may become a king.

Your opinion on what makes a King is just your opinion.

[ellifeedn]

So even if you have Haoushoku Haki, you won't immediately qualify as king?

[CBredbeard]

Originally Posted by anonfr

1. I didn't misread. You said Hakuryuu wasn't amazing and powerful, but in earlier posts you said a king doesn't need to be amazing and powerful. You added importance to something you previously claimed was unimportant. I don't get that.

There seems to be some problem with communication. I said we don't know why he was selected by Zagan. I said it was probably not because he was amazing and powerful. Zagan's reason for picking Hakuryuu was not because the kid was amazing and powerful. That's me saying that the reason why was something more important than being amazing and powerful.

That's me saying that amazing and powerful is not a reason to pick a king.

2. The rules of the manga itself state that anyone who gets selected by a Djinn as their chosen king is a king candidate. He doesn't need to be selected by anyone else.

Kings are selected by Magi and Djinn. Whenever we get into the why someone is selected, the reasons tend to allude to leadership qualities, and what others think of you. Whenever a King's Candidate is up and about and doing his thing, we see his followers and the opinions of others in regards to why that guy is a good king.

You haven't kept a single argument straight since I've started debating you.

I have been straight. If anything, I may have been confusing since I tend to bounce between facts from the manga and subtext and themes.

Also, other than Sinbad and his undeveloped 7 seas alliance, none of the other Kings candidates we've interacted are actually proper "kings" of their own country. Not any from the Ren family, not Muu, Not Alibaba, not any of them. Most of them will probably never be proper Kings either.

Scherazade's first candidate was merely a general and ended up leading the senate, which his family has done ever since. He did not become Emperor.

We don't really have a benchmark for what makes a king, since it's susceptible to a lot of variables. The only baseline of reference we have is that anyone chosen by a Djinn may become a king.

Your opinion on what makes a King is just your opinion.

The manga explores "kingship" and the qualities of leaders. Among those qualities and "variables" badassitude has not been one. That is my point.

Originally Posted by ellifeedn

So even if you have Haoushoku Haki, you won't immediately qualify as king?

Gesundheit.

[anonfr]

Originally Posted by CBredbeard

Kings are selected by Magi and Djinn. Whenever we get into the why someone is selected, the reasons tend to allude to leadership qualities, and what others think of you. Whenever a King's Candidate is up and about and doing his thing, we see his followers and the opinions of others in regards to why that guy is a good king.

Then what does this say about Hakuryuu? He was technically chosen by both a Magi and a Djinn.

Originally Posted by CBredbeard

I have been straight. If anything, I may have been confusing since I tend to bounce between facts from the manga and subtext and themes.

Fair enough, I suppose.

[Flower]

Folks, please - if you see someone disagrees with you about something after an interchange or two it is usually better to agree to disagree. Stubbornly holding onto the way one sees things as the only possible interpretation gets discussion nowhere, it often just becomes people getting irritated with each other, not listening, "calling out" others, and beating each other over the head with the same arguments.

Give it a rest and please be considerate of other people reading the thread who have to wade through lots of posts about things that may not be issues for them. Also if someone wishes to drop the discussion / debate / argument plesse have the courtesy to do so and not let fly a "parting shot" in triumph or whatever else.

Thanks in advance.

[CBredbeard]

Originally Posted by anonfr

Then what does this say about Hakuryuu? He was technically chosen by both a Magi and a Djinn.

He is not unique in being selected by a Magi (you mean Judar?) and a Djinn. Probably the only Dungeon Conquerors that have not had both endorsements are from the Alliance.

People have given their opinion of him though.

Hakuei was disturbed by his "household" and the tactics he used when surpressing Kou's enemies (in contrast, she spoke quite highly of En on the same subject).

En acknowledged that he would not allow Hakuryuu to become emperor. He knows Hakuryuu has too much hatred and is unsuitable, despite being the real heir to Kou. In this vein, he has isolated Hakuryuu and refused to grant him a military rank, while everyone else in their family has gained one.

Even with a mutual enemy, Sinbad was reluctant to ally with Hakuryuu.

Probably the only ones in the manga that may have had something nice to say about the guy were the Shambal Gladiators who taught him to use his Ki.

While Hakuryuu is basically a good guy, he drives himself crazy out of a conflicted sense of obligation and hatred. He pushes others away, even if he weren't being isolated. He does terrible things probably simply as practice for the big show down with his mum. He's completely at odds with who he really is and the person he thinks he has to become to carry out his goals.

At least that's what I think.

He doesn't have many people paying him compliments at any rate.

P.S. Hakuei was unique in that she was chosen by two Magi. The only one that has the same acknowledgement was Sinbad.

[anonfr]

Originally Posted by CBredbeard

He is not unique in being selected by a Magi (you mean Judar?) and a Djinn. Probably the only Dungeon Conquerors that have not had both endorsements are from the Alliance.

I agree with everything else you said about Hakuryuu, and that he's not unique in being selected by a magi and a djinn. However you previously you stated Hakuryuu isn't a king. Then you said a king is selected by both a magi and a Djinn. Hakuryuu was in fact selected by both a Magi and a Djinn, but you still insist he's technically not a king in spite of that.

I'm sorry but I'm not quite able to reconcile the root of your logic versus your opinion in subtext.

Originally Posted by CBredbeard

P.S. Hakuei was unique in that she was chosen by two Magi. The only one that has the same acknowledgement was Sinbad.

I don't recall Aladdin actually choosing her, as opposed to just making friends with her. I think there's a difference? I think this is another case of us having different interpretations of subtext.