Fate/stay night Game discussion (Warning: Spoilers)

[DragoZERO]

Originally Posted by RadiantBeam

Well, you can always participate in a rape fantasy if both partners are comfortable and trust each other, which could fall under "wanting to be raped" even though technically, it wouldn't be rape.

Then it's be S&M.

Originally Posted by Moczo

"So help me, I'm going to rape you!"

"All right, but if I help you it won't be rape."


... I'm sorry, I'll go sit in the corner now.


EDIT: Pageclaim for jokes that are in poor taste?

You instantly have claim for the bad jokes.

[Cherry_Lover]

Originally Posted by DragoZERO

She would masturbate to alleviate any sexual stress.

Well, having sex also gives her some prana, but you're right that masturbation would be sufficient to alleviate the sexual stress from the worms.

Shinji may have been told to do it for that reason, but it all just came down to keeping him under control and stuff.

Well, Zouken may have told him to do it to reduce Sakura's sexual appetite in case it caused her to do things that might give away her situation, but it seems more likely to me that it was mainly done on Shinji's initiative.

And I don't think you can want to be raped...then it isn't rape, right?

Well, you can want to be raped, but you cannot actually be raped willingly, by definition.

Originally Posted by RadiantBeam

Well, you can always participate in a rape fantasy if both partners are comfortable and trust each other, which could fall under "wanting to be raped" even though technically, it wouldn't be rape.

Exactly. It is quite possible for someone to "want" to be raped (although, honestly, most people who have rape fantasies probably wouldn't want to be genuinely raped, because it's too dangerous), but it is not possible for someone to be raped consensually, since rape is, by definition, simply sex that happens without the (legal) consent of at least one of the parties.

[DragoZERO]

Originally Posted by Cherry_Lover

Well, having sex also gives her some prana, but you're right that masturbation would be sufficient to alleviate the sexual stress from the worms.

She doesn't get anything magically out of Shinji, ever.

Well, Zouken may have told him to do it to reduce Sakura's sexual appetite in case it caused her to do things that might give away her situation, but it seems more likely to me that it was mainly done on Shinji's initiative.

No. Zouken gave the go ahead to keep him under wraps.

Well, you can want to be raped, but you cannot actually be raped willingly, by definition.

Exactly. It is quite possible for someone to "want" to be raped (although, honestly, most people who have rape fantasies probably wouldn't want to be genuinely raped, because it's too dangerous), but it is not possible for someone to be raped consensually, since rape is, by definition, simply sex that happens without the (legal) consent of at least one of the parties.

What many people don't realize is that rape is about the violence of the act - not the sex. Rape play is really just S&M with a different theme.

[Cherry_Lover]

Originally Posted by DragoZERO

She doesn't get anything magically out of Shinji, ever.

That's not clear. I believe that the sperm of even ordinary people does contain at least some magical energy. Probably not enough to make any significant difference to her (because she naturally generates a huge amount of prana), but he likely does provide her with some. That is clearly not a sufficient reason for him to be raping her, though.

No. Zouken gave the go ahead to keep him under wraps.

Honestly, we don't know why Shinji started raping Sakura, because it's never explicitly said. I doubt that Zouken had any reason whatsoever to make concessions to Shinji. If he becomes a problem, then Zouken can kill him. If Shinji did in fact do it of his own volition (rather than being initially ordered to do it by Zouken), which is not clear (the game never explicitly states whether Zouken told him to do it), I doubt he bothered to ask Zouken for permission (although he would undoubtedly stop if Zouken ordered him to).

What many people don't realize is that rape is about the violence of the act - not the sex. Rape play is really just S&M with a different theme.

It depends on the situation. For people who have an actual rape fetish, that is undoubtedly true (well, it is about pain, power and control, like all BDSM is), but what defines the act itself is having sex without consent. It is quite possible for someone who has no interest in power or control to rape someone because they just want sex, even if many instances of rape (and, in particular, pretty much all instances of serial rape) are more about the perpetrator having power over the victim and being able to hurt them than they are about the sex itself.

[Wigwams]

i believe shinji started raping sakura after he found out about her being the true heir. from what i recall he said something about sakura apologizing, and that if she really meant it then it also means "submitting" herself... i think that was the start. so its out of anger/jealousy... probably same case why shinji wants rin.

[mAc Chaos]

Everyone has some magical energy, otherwise there would be no point for Servants to eat their souls.

[Haak]

Originally Posted by Cherry_Lover

Not really, because if some random person off the street needed to suck his blood to survive, he would let them do it too. Hell, Sakura's confidence is so low that she doesn't even recognise that Shirou genuinely wants to have sex with her (as opposed to just doing it because it's the only way she can get prana and, thus, not hurt people) until the third time around. Without her realising that he is doing it because he actually wants her as opposed to out of a sense of duty, she does not gain the confidence necessary to stand up to Shinji, and thus the Shinji death scene does not happen.

Sakura never stood up to Shinji anyway. The reason she realised that Shirou actually wanted her was because she saw Shirou refusing to kill her for the second time. The sex obviously helped but as far as I can see, it's unneccessary.

Except that that destroys the whole point of the scene, and is OOC for Sakura. For a start, I would say that thinking "I wish he were dead" when someone is raping you (or beating you to within an inch of your life and posssibly intending to kill you) is not actually an evil thought at all. It is a perfectly natural thought to have, and one that most ordinary people would (quite justifiably) possess in such a scenario, so it says nothing much about her mental state.

Lets not get into semantics, here. I'm simply saying it was a stray thought that came from her deepest desires she never even realised she had.

However, it is not a thought that Sakura would ever actually have, because she genuinely does not care about herself (at least not enough to kill Shinji in self-defense). The whole of the Shinji death scene in the PC version was about Shirou. She refused Shinji raping her because she was in a relationship with Shirou and she killed Shinji because she was worried that otherwise Shirou would do so when Shinji came to tell him about what he'd done to Sakura in the past. If Shinji is beating the shit out of her, as in RN, then that is no different from what has happened hundreds of times before and there is no reason to stand up for herself. She's used to it, so she would just lie there and take the beating.

I'm not sure, but probably what you said (just a "stray evil thought").

I disagree. I don't think that was the whole point. I think the whole point was that the dilemna forced her into thinking that stray thought for the first time. But like I said, I don't think the dilemna is neccessary to lead to that stray thought. It would've worked equally well if it just spontanouesly happened. Especially if she went from being loved unconditionally to this. I wouldn't want to go back either.

Well, it's not nice, no, but then nothing about Sakura's situation is nice. The worms live off her prana, and since having sex provides prana (and since they are lust worms), it makes sense that they enhance her sex drive.

And you know perfectly well how I feel about the whole sex = mana logic.

Well, in general, the correct response to "oh, shit, I just found out the girl I love has been raped and sexually tortured from the age of four" is not, in fact "oh, I know, in order to comfort her, I'll have sex with her", so Shirou would not come on to her in such a situation. She clearly has to initiate it, and without the excuse of needing prana due to the worms she would not have the confidence to do so.

She shouldn't have had the confidence to do so anyway. And she barely even mentioned the worms.

[Altima of the Gates]

Sakura never stood up to Shinji anyway. The reason she realised that Shirou actually wanted her was because she saw Shirou refusing to kill her for the second time. The sex obviously helped but as far as I can see, it's unneccessary.

Actually it was said she resisted the first few times but then stopped altogether. I just thought she said "fuck it" and relented. Yes, refusing to kill her obviously would score some points, but it wasn't th main factor, she always says she isn't s attractive as Saber, or Rin, or even Ilya (remembering the "so you don't like girls with big breasts?" line). So him actively seeking her out above others was the main boost. Note the surprise when he came back from patrol and embraced her, and said he wanted to make love to her. That was really the turning tide there, where sex went from a routine to an act between lovers.

Lets not get into semantics, here. I'm simply saying it was a stray thought that came from her deepest desires she never even realized she had.

Its less about deep hidden desires and more along the lines that she saw that he just couldn't be reasoned with, hit a pit of despair, and then BOOM. She did honestly pity the boy before then, but even the most saintly of people would want to crush him after that scene. She wasn't having the best of days either before that point, what with the body barely holding together after getting Gate of Babyl'owned (three times no less) and stitching herself up with prana to hold her limbs together. Shinji just slapped the lion too many times.

[Haak]

Originally Posted by Altima of the Gates

Actually it was said she resisted the first few times but then stopped altogether. I just thought she said "fuck it" and relented. Yes, refusing to kill her obviously would score some points, but it wasn't th main factor, she always says she isn't s attractive as Saber, or Rin, or even Ilya (remembering the "so you don't like girls with big breasts?" line). So him actively seeking her out above others was the main boost. Note the surprise when he came back from patrol and embraced her, and said he wanted to make love to her. That was really the turning tide there, where sex went from a routine to an act between lovers.

After watching that scene again, you're absolutely right. Sakura resisted because she felt her body belonged to Shirou (I just realised now why i could never sympathise with her during her interludes. I was too busy being freaked out by her horrifyingly disturbing thought process). So sex is needed for the dilemna to happen.

[DragoZERO]

I wish there was an easy way to go to each scene and watch it again.

[willyvereb]

There is! Go to the options and pick the 'skip already watched scenes'(or something similar). You can freely choose which scene to skip and which one to see. Well, you still have to make choices and
Alternatively with a quick search on Youtube. XerBlade still has all the scenes of FSN up on his account.
Not that easy but definitely easier than playing through the whole game again.

[Tenchi Hou Take]

Can somone tell me why the general message of HF is so messed up and almost conflicting...
Shirou at the very least sub-consciously considers the actions he took in order to save Sakura as morally wrong. Even Archer said that in the end Shirou would the one to judge himself, which he did when consciously accepted the punishment for his crimes by using the arm which would lead to his death.

He even says just before he starts using the arm that he has accepted his punishment for he betraying himself and sacrificing many lives. If he personally didn't think that what he was doing wasn't wrong then why did he feel the need to be condemned.

I don't get how this same Shirou that was willing to go through hell without any regrets because he believed the ideal was beautiful and he knew deep down that the path towards the ideal wasn't wrong could possibly be able to follow a path that he personally believed was wrong and for the most part consciously be totally fine with it apart from the fact the subconsciously he was trying to kill himself.

It's all so messed up.

[willyvereb]

Shirou in HF burdens sin for the sake of happiness. Not just his own but for anyone close to him. Shirou realized his own ideal which is saving people close to him. Saving nameless and faceless people don't bring him happiness he so sought for.They disappear as soon as he saved them and maybe only show a little gratitude. What Shirou wants to share his happiness with others and see happy people around him.

Of course at first glance it looks like being a dick but Shirou didn't change that much. He just takes priorities in his life and does not feel so damn obligated to help every single person regardless of who they are. He finally has a life and doesn't live like a machine. Yeah, it's not that saintly but seriously...are people supposed to be saints?

Everyone has his own dirt. People can't just think "for the greater good" and hush sacrifice themselves. Maybe it would work if everyone thinks that way. But reality isn't like that at all. People are selfish at least a bit. Of course since we have individuality and dreams. If you kill off every selfish feeling, you get an empty robotic husk that just remotely looks like human. Doing good is fine but one should consider not only the good of others.

For example it's bad if you overwork yourself even if it helps someone. You can't keep it up forever. Now, the idealistic Shirou does exactly that. Sooner or later Fate and UBW Shirou would break. If not by some outside assistance then they still suffer the negative consequences. It's likely they would never truly get satisfied with what they are doing. In turn the relationship with their friends would dull. You know when people has a lot of work, they can't be in contact with their friends much. Shirou would never know a stop.Well, in UBW Rin might force him time to time, but I doubt it would work all the time. Unless his motivation coming from inside I bet it's going to be just barely effective.

In a long run that's why I think HF Shirou is both more healthy and peaceful in mind. Despite his wrong deeds, he finally settled down and also earned some more individuality. Fate and UBW Shirou would not mind being used as long as it serves some good. HF Shirou on the other hand would consider his own good as well as Sakura's. If by some chance he wants to do something for the world then it has less chance of being corrupted at the end.

Perhaps maybe I am taking this a little far but I think if Nasu had a message then it must be that one has to keep the balance. People can commit sins while struggling for good. But it's still better than killing ourselves inside for some "higher objective". Or maybe he just served us that two alternatives. Nah, probably he didn't think this that throughly.

[Reckoner]

I really don't think it's all that healthier. If something happened to Sakura, what would happen to Shirou's perception of the world? He's making his life's happiness dependent upon one person while fate and UBW he is happy so long as he follow his ideal.

To me, the healthiest Shirou is UBW Shirou. He acknowledges his limitations, but doesn't betray his deepest desire and motivation, his ideal.

[Altima of the Gates]

Originally Posted by Reckoner

I really don't think it's all that healthier. If something happened to Sakura, what would happen to Shirou's perception of the world? He's making his life's happiness dependent upon one person while fate and UBW he is happy so long as he follow his ideal.

To me, the healthiest Shirou is UBW Shirou. He acknowledges his limitations, but doesn't betray his deepest desire and motivation, his ideal.

Missing the point.
He revised, not abandoned the ideal. Remember if you will, what happened to Archer, what happened to Kiritsugu, you need balance, and HF Shirou is quite well balanced, thank you.

I seriously do not see why people say Shirou changed that much. He is still the same person who cried over people dying on the news, the same one who cherishes his small family, the same passionate boy.To say that this Shirou is somehow different because he uses his brain and steps back a bit is a bit much. Just my opinion though.

[willyvereb]

Originally Posted by Reckoner

I really don't think it's all that healthier. If something happened to Sakura, what would happen to Shirou's perception of the world? He's making his life's happiness dependent upon one person while fate and UBW he is happy so long as he follow his ideal.

To me, the healthiest Shirou is UBW Shirou. He acknowledges his limitations, but doesn't betray his deepest desire and motivation, his ideal.

You mean if Sakura dies? He would be pretty pissed and sad of course. But he's by no way dependent on Sakura alone. Also I have to note that UBW Shirou himself acknowledges that he is sick. Both Archer and Rin agree but they believe Shirou can't change so the former asks Rin to look over his past self. It pretty much suggest that Shirou won't be really fine alone. What if he loses Rin? At first nothing, he would be sad and even down. But it would eventually end up in Shirou chasing his ideal even more. He doesn't have Rin to stop him anymore and he got a new "motivation" to be a hero. He may even turn into the same person as Archer.

Perhaps you are free to choose. I personally think HF Shirou is better since he faced his past, instead of running away and playing hero just for the heck of it.

[Haak]

Originally Posted by DragoZERO

I wish there was an easy way to go to each scene and watch it again.

I used Youtube. (I'd give the link that shows the scene but I'm not sure if that's allowed)

[DragoZERO]

Originally Posted by Reckoner

I really don't think it's all that healthier. If something happened to Sakura, what would happen to Shirou's perception of the world? He's making his life's happiness dependent upon one person while fate and UBW he is happy so long as he follow his ideal.

To me, the healthiest Shirou is UBW Shirou. He acknowledges his limitations, but doesn't betray his deepest desire and motivation, his ideal.

UBW dealed more with Shirou's self-value. He places so little value on his life. It's one of the things that made Rin interested in him. Rin knew she shouldn't worry about others and focus on her "mission" but went it comes down to it, she can't and she dislikes that about herself to a degree. Shirou will throw away any mission to help someone. For example, when Rin saves Shirou she was annoyed with herself because saving Shirou meant giving up on Lancer but she had to save Shirou. If their situations were reversed (which they were when they went to the school and Shirou chased Rider into the forest), Shirou would drop Lancer and save Rin without a second thought.

UBW did go into the greater good with Shirou indirectly by using Archer.

Originally Posted by Altima of the Gates

Missing the point.
He revised, not abandoned the ideal. Remember if you will, what happened to Archer, what happened to Kiritsugu, you need balance, and HF Shirou is quite well balanced, thank you.

I seriously do not see why people say Shirou changed that much. He is still the same person who cried over people dying on the news, the same one who cherishes his small family, the same passionate boy.To say that this Shirou is somehow different because he uses his brain and steps back a bit is a bit much. Just my opinion though.

Agreed. Shirou did not leave his ideal behind, he merely adjusted it...to a more realistic and healthy focus - the woman he loved. That was one of the aspects of Shirou that HF really delved into. And it's what makes the visual novel so awesome, you explore different parts of the characters in each route. You can only do so much with a fixed storyline, but one with routes, the possibilities are astounding.

Originally Posted by Haak

I used Youtube. (I'd give the link that shows the scene but I'm not sure if that's allowed)

I can google it, thanks though.

[Reckoner]

Originally Posted by Altima of the Gates

Missing the point.
He revised, not abandoned the ideal. Remember if you will, what happened to Archer, what happened to Kiritsugu, you need balance, and HF Shirou is quite well balanced, thank you.

I seriously do not see why people say Shirou changed that much. He is still the same person who cried over people dying on the news, the same one who cherishes his small family, the same passionate boy.To say that this Shirou is somehow different because he uses his brain and steps back a bit is a bit much. Just my opinion though.

I think this is subject to interpretation, but what he called revising in HF I call abandoning. He's putting the lives of many at risk for one life. I can't see how you're not breaking your ideal anymore than that.

Originally Posted by willyvereb

You mean if Sakura dies? He would be pretty pissed and sad of course. But he's by no way dependent on Sakura alone. Also I have to note that UBW Shirou himself acknowledges that he is sick. Both Archer and Rin agree but they believe Shirou can't change so the former asks Rin to look over his past self. It pretty much suggest that Shirou won't be really fine alone. What if he loses Rin? At first nothing, he would be sad and even down. But it would eventually end up in Shirou chasing his ideal even more. He doesn't have Rin to stop him anymore and he got a new "motivation" to be a hero. He may even turn into the same person as Archer.

Perhaps you are free to choose. I personally think HF Shirou is better since he faced his past, instead of running away and playing hero just for the heck of it.

I think the apt way to say it is that in HF he took the easier route for his peace of mind. To be the true idealist he was seeking to be in Fate in particular, is to choose the hardest road. He did what every other apathetic and cynical person does in life and gives up on any sort of idealism. To me, this idealism is what I find to like about Shirou as a character, because really, most of us are too weak to put themselves on that path.

Originally Posted by DragoZERO

UBW dealed more with Shirou's self-value. He places so little value on his life. It's one of the things that made Rin interested in him. Rin knew she shouldn't worry about others and focus on her "mission" but went it comes down to it, she can't and she dislikes that about herself to a degree. Shirou will throw away any mission to help someone. For example, when Rin saves Shirou she was annoyed with herself because saving Shirou meant giving up on Lancer but she had to save Shirou. If their situations were reversed (which they were when they went to the school and Shirou chased Rider into the forest), Shirou would drop Lancer and save Rin without a second thought.

UBW did go into the greater good with Shirou indirectly by using Archer.

Agreed. Shirou did not leave his ideal behind, he merely adjusted it...to a more realistic and healthy focus - the woman he loved. That was one of the aspects of Shirou that HF really delved into. And it's what makes the visual novel so awesome, you explore different parts of the characters in each route. You can only do so much with a fixed storyline, but one with routes, the possibilities are astounding..

I understand how little self value he placed on himself, but he opts for the ideal despite knowing that because he feels that such a beautiful thing cannot be wrong. In HF he tossed it away, and chose that his own little selfishness was worth more than that ideal. To me, that was the easy way out.


EDIT: Now I've realized I've contradicted myself. Bleh . OK perhaps more of what I meant was not that it was necessarily unhealthier what he chose to do in HF, but rather that it was more twisted. There's nothing admirable to me about what he did in HF, but I do find his choice in UBW in particular, to be far more admirable.

[Tenchi Hou Take]

Originally Posted by willyvereb

Shirou in HF burdens sin for the sake of happiness. Not just his own but for anyone close to him. Shirou realized his own ideal which is saving people close to him. Saving nameless and faceless people don't bring him happiness he so sought for.They disappear as soon as he saved them and maybe only show a little gratitude. What Shirou wants to share his happiness with others and see happy people around him.

Actually I'd like to point this is slightly wrong and missing the point by quite a bit. Saving people made him content, he died with a smile on his face. Saving Sakura had very little to do with his happiness, being with Rin or Saber would have made him equally as happy as being with Sakura hence why the ideal had nothing to do with happiness. The reason he was unhappy was because of guilt the reason why he truly followed the ideal was because he believed it to be beautiful. Shirou's guilt and his ideal are mutually exclusive. He can deal with his guilt, be happy and still follow his ideal as shown by UBW.

Anyway people saying that Shirou's ideal and his choice to save Sakura as being the same are quite blatantly missing the point. Saving Sakura is furthest you can get from shirou's ideal, the absolute furthest. Shirou wants to save as many people as possible in order to reduce the likeliness of the events that occured 10 years from happening again. He can't save everyone so he selflessly saves as many people as possible. HF Shirou actively produces fires like those that happened 10 years ago for selfish reasons, not only is their actions oposite their reasons for doing it are also opposite. If UBW or Fate Shirou met HF Shirou they would try to kill him as he is precisely the anti-thesis to their ideal. They are in no way the same. How would anyone believe they are following the same ideal, UBW and Fate revolve around selflessness, HF revolves around selfishness it's about as different as good and evil.