Hayate no Gotoku manga (raw discussion only)

[musouka]

Originally Posted by Mentar

And those are "balancing factors" in your book? You serious?

Yes? I mean, I don't really understand what you're asking for here.

Originally Posted by Mentar

Our little princess has no support network? Well, no bidirectional one at least. Hayate, Hina, Nagi, Isumi - all of them busted butt and took significant risks for her sake. Maybe some day we'll see Athena returning a favor to someone but Hayate.

Not for her sake, for Hayate's sake. Do you see them worrying about her afterward? (She clearly hasn't been back to the school.) Trying to get into contact with her to make sure she's okay?

Originally Posted by Mentar

Or maybe you take Athena's "don't worry about me" line seriously? She's obviously in trouble again, and obviously she's going to require the help of others again without telling them the truth about it.

Considering your track record as far as understanding and predicting what Athena will do is pretty abysmal, you'll forgive me if you'll take your assumptions as to how much danger she's in and how much help she'll need with a rather large grain of salt.

Originally Posted by Mentar

Please. She didn't sacrifice anything (that was merely one more of her many "big announcement, soon forgotten" fireworks), she's already back in his life.

She said she would see Hayate again in the chapter where they left one another. You always make it sound like she renegs on her her deals when really you just don't seem to read what she's actually saying. And, yes, she did give up the possibility of having Hayate in her life at that moment. Now she'll have to work if she wants to regain her place, like every other girl in the series.

Originally Posted by Mentar

Yes, of course ... I only mentioned it because it is so typical for how Hata deals with her. She remains the assertive flaunt-your-strengths character that the world revolves around.

Flaunt your strength? Man, you really seem to have issues with confident women...

Originally Posted by Mentar

Hearing YOU say that feels kinda strange, weren't you among those who postulated the opposite (not sure, would have to look it up)?

No, I always said that while I'd like her to be a part of Hayate's life, I wouldn't expect it.

Originally Posted by Mentar

In c300 Hata consciously refreshed her special status with Hayate both ways - by having him dream of her, and having her go deredere skinship with him.

Yep, I liked that a lot. Hayate doesn't think of any other girl like her, nor is he as physically close to any other girl. But that's not Athena's fault either. Any of the other girls could have what she does if they really wanted to.

[Bastion_Arcion]

Originally Posted by musouka

Hayate doesn't think of any other girl like her, nor is he as physically close to any other girl. But that's not Athena's fault either. Any of the other girls could have what she does if they really wanted to.

Not Athena's fault?
She's the one who taught him the lessons he's using as 'explanation' for why he's not in the relationship with any of them, he even states it when talking about Ayumu. She didn't want him to be in a serious relationship, and taught him so that he'd unconsciously shy away from them except with her.
It's entirely her fault, and she probably knows it by now.
Plus Hina-tan at least really really wants such a relationship (and everyone except Hayate knows it it seems), but is held back because she won't interfere with him, not to mention her own problems. And won't resort to Athena's methods to create it.

[musouka]

And why haven't any of these girls that love Hayate so much told him that they want to be in a relationship with him even without meeting Athena's standards? If they're so serious, they don't have to just accept his explanation. (Plus, I still don't see the issue with what she told him.)

Originally Posted by Bastion_Arcion

Plus Hina-tan at least really really wants such a relationship (and everyone except Hayate knows it it seems), but is held back because she won't interfere with him, not to mention her own problems. And won't resort to Athena's methods to create it.

If Hina wants a relationship that badly, she can start it by telling him so and leaving the ball in his court. Until then, she has no one to blame but herself for waiting passively and hoping for the best.

[Bastion_Arcion]

Originally Posted by musouka

And why haven't any of these girls that love Hayate so much told him that they want to be in a relationship with him even without meeting Athena's standards? If they're so serious, they don't have to just accept his explanation.

Because that would bring the story of the harem to an end? Many of them don't know that he actually has a reason either (Hina-tan and Izumi were the only ones who actually heard him confess to such, we can't be sure how much Nishizawa heard), Izumi and Ayumu are both pushing their feelings to the side for Hinagiku to take center stage.

Originally Posted by musouka

Plus, I still don't see the issue with what she told him.

And what era do you live in? Most people's grandparents know it's wrong to assume the guy has to be able to financially support the girl in the relationship even when they were brought up in an era when that was taught. Even TV shows make fun of it now.
Hayate presumably keeps himself too busy to realize that.

Originally Posted by musouka

If Hina wants a relationship that badly, she can start it by telling him so and leaving the ball in his court. Until then, she has no one to blame but herself for waiting passively and hoping for the best.

Red Sonja Complex. Essentially, she's waiting for him to admit his feelings, in words. He's already stated them pretty clearly with his eyes.
Ayumu is telling her to forget that, but Hinagiku isn't listening, so she's doing what she can, but she's not at the Magnificent Bastard level Miki is at.. yet.

[musouka]

Originally Posted by Bastion_Arcion

Many of them don't know that he actually has a reason either (Hina-tan and Izumi were the only ones who actually heard him confess to such, we can't be sure how much Nishizawa heard), Izumi and Ayumu are both pushing their feelings to the side for Hinagiku to take center stage.

Hina heard and said absolutely nothing about it. Because it was a joke and a method to make sure Hayate doesn't end up with anyone. (He still doesn't have cash so it's not like he's going to end up with Athena either, going by that excuse.)

Originally Posted by Bastion_Arcion

And what era do you live in? Most people's grandparents know it's wrong to assume the guy has to be able to financially support the girl in the relationship even when they were brought up in an era when that was taught. Even TV shows make fun of it now.

Yes. That's the joke. It's supposed to be funny, which is why I don't see a problem with it. Honestly, this fandom gets so bent out of shape over things that a six year old girl said to a six year old boy ten years ago in a gag scene making fun of how old fashioned and ridiculous that line of thought is.

Originally Posted by Bastion_Arcion

Essentially, she's waiting for him to admit his feelings, in words.

Feelings that he pretty clearly doesn't have, otherwise he could have told her ten times over at this point. I don't care about what Hayate's "eyes" say, I care about what his mouth and mind says. And so far there's nothing that makes me believe he's interested in pursuing a romantic relationship with Hina.

[zodanhko]

Spoiler for kinda long:

Originally Posted by Bastion_Arcion

I'm going to needlessly confront you about this, given my background dealing with D&D, it creates quite a different context.

Athena didn't summon those monsters, she powered the stone, which summoned those monsters, not used her own power (the monsters were destroyed when the stone was destroyed, not tied to anything that happened to Athena). The minotaur was specifically stated to be similarly summoned. I believe even Machina was hinted to be an early summon of similar origin.
Midas' arm wasn't even a summon, since Midas shares her body, that was basically a giving hard form to an attribute she already had, an enhancement if you will. Notice how it stayed attached to her the entire time. Plus it seemed to be a magical construction, while the other summoned creatures were often acting independently of their summoner, as was the last robot Yozora brought in, if not the others as well, since she actually lost control of it when trying to get it to stop attacking.

And when Midas takes his own form separate from Athena, she's apparently left with no power at all, least of all to summon Midas' arm to defend herself against him. That wouldn't be the case if it was actual summoning. Sonia, Gilbert and Yozora have summoned multiple independent creatures, which seems to be on a different level from Athena's powers. Different, not greater.

I supposed it's true that the fake stone materialized the monsters when Athena tried to open the gates of hell using her power on it. However, the case with Midas' arm is different in my view. His arm was not attached to her body and came forth from a different dimension by her power. Midas soul was in Athena, and his physical body was elsewhere. When Midas has his own body, Athena's power was almost completely drained by him, so she might not have much power left control the arm (the arm was already summoned by her). Athena stated that if she disappears, the Midas' arm that was holding Isumi will also disappear so the arm has a connection with her.

Having the ability to summon is, in some or many cases, different from having the power to control the summoned creatures.

Originally Posted by Bastion_Arcion

As I've said on MF, the likelihood of Yozora working for Athena keeps falling. Remember how Yozora is shown at one time to be talking to her probable employer on her phone? There is no indication that Athena would even be available for that style of contact, since there was no indication of any sort of tech when Hayate was running through her castle looking for her, and she point-blank stated that she didn't have a phone number or e-mail less than a year ago when Hinagiku asked her for her contact information.

Her appearance in chapters 299 and 300 is probably nothing to do with the current arcs, and thus could all have been in Hayate's head and nothing more. He does still care for her and wants to see her, we know that much. His brain being half-asleep after the day just gave the author/editors reason for her to appear.

I didn't say Yozora is working for Athena. What I said before...

I see no connection between Yozora and Isumi since Isumi deals with ghosts, monsters, and the likes, and Yozora obviously doesn't belong in those categories. Yozora, like Athena and Isumi, belongs to a family of magician (or could use magic) so she wasn't just any random character, and her objective wasn't money since Nagi was already disinherited. I somewhat related Yozora to Athena because Yozora is not a normal person, and she was after the group for a specific reason, which later revealed to have something to do with the broken King's Jewel. Since there was always a connection between Athena, the King's Jewel, and the Royal Garden, it's not out of the blue that Athena appears. And, we know that Athena was part of the reasons that Nagi broke the King's Jewel.

Whether Hayate's still dreaming, we'll know in a couple of chapters.

Originally Posted by Bastion_Arcion

Almost a balancing factor, until you realize that she did that to herself. No one forces her to be alone for all of those years, at least ten years ago she was freed from her prison of the RG and free to form the relationships that Hayate has built in a few months(!), but she apparently doesn't wish to. She could have easily integrated herself into Hinagiku's group of friends, everyone else wants to, but she chooses to stay alone.
It doesn't even seem she can hold a normal conversation with Hayate in any form, even Machina doesn't seem to have much of a friendly relationship with her.
And she has no one to blame but herself.

She did put a barrier around herself, and that's due to the constant assassination attempts she faced by herself since 6yrs old because of that "rich factor." I guess you could say that it was her fault for her own solitude, but the reason lies in one of those "strength factors" that she has. Nevertheless, the factor that no one approaches her because she's seemingly perfect, out of reach, is still a downside.

I guess her weak sides that she can show Hayate is too much to be normal. That's even better than some stupid normal conversations!!!

[Bastion_Arcion]

Originally Posted by musouka

Hina heard and said absolutely nothing about it. Because it was a joke and a method to make sure Hayate doesn't end up with anyone. (He still doesn't have cash so it's not like he's going to end up with Athena either, going by that excuse.)

Yes. That's the joke. It's supposed to be funny, which is why I don't see a problem with it. Honestly, this fandom gets so bent out of shape over things that a six year old girl said to a six year old boy ten years ago in a gag scene making fun of how old fashioned and ridiculous that line of thought is.

Hina did respond, she called the girl a witch for teaching him that. Although, when she learned that the girl was Athena she didn't react much seemed kinda odd. And yes, presumably Athena had already figured out a way around it that only she could fulfill, probably giving him a 'loan' when he wanted to marry her.

Kicking someone in the stomach, and sending them flying with it, and telling them to stop complaining when he says he's hurt? I don't see how that can be taken as a joke, no one even within the series does.
He's invincible, and yet she manages to hurt him can't realistically be played as a joke even in a series like this.
She was clearly serious, and it had no indications of being a gag scene, unless you're looking at the entire EoTW and Athens arcs as nothing more than gag arcs.

Originally Posted by musouka

Feelings that he pretty clearly doesn't have, otherwise he could have told her ten times over at this point. I don't care about what Hayate's "eyes" say, I care about what his mouth and mind says. And so far there's nothing that makes me believe he's interested in pursuing a romantic relationship with Hina.

He did state it with his mouth and his mind, just a little garbled, during his stay at her house.
And if you don't want to trust body language, you're missing most of the story, including the stuff in regards to Athena. His mouth makes it clear what his body is saying in the first place.
He doesn't think that she could have the same feelings for him, because she didn't respond when he did admit his feelings, even Nagi knows it, and doesn't trust his claims to the opposite.
I really hope you're more street-smart than the characters in the story.

[musouka]

Originally Posted by Bastion_Arcion

Hina did respond, she called the girl a witch for teaching him that.

She thought that to herself. At no point did she try to correct his misconception.

Originally Posted by Bastion_Arcion

Although, when she learned that the girl was Athena she didn't react much seemed kinda odd.

Probably because it was meant to be an amusing scene?

Originally Posted by Bastion_Arcion

And yes, presumably Athena had already figured out a way around it that only she could fulfill, probably giving him a 'loan' when he wanted to marry her.

Funny how that didn't come up when they were exchanging rings.

Originally Posted by Bastion_Arcion

Kicking someone in the stomach, and sending them flying with it, and telling them to stop complaining when he says he's hurt?

Yes. It's called slapstick. Hayate no Gotoku is full of scenes just like it.

Originally Posted by Bastion_Arcion

I don't see how that can be taken as a joke, no one even within the series does.

No one within the series? You just said only a few people know about this, and no one knows that she kicked him unless they were actually looking into Hayate's flashback like a television set.

Originally Posted by Bastion_Arcion

He's invincible, and yet she manages to hurt him can't realistically be played as a joke even in a series like this.

That's part of the joke.

Originally Posted by Bastion_Arcion

She was clearly serious, and it had no indications of being a gag scene, unless you're looking at the entire EoTW and Athens arcs as nothing more than gag arcs.

It was obviously a gag because of the way Hina responded.

Originally Posted by Bastion_Arcion

He did state it with his mouth and his mind, just a little garbled, during his stay at her house.

How long has it been since then with absolutely no movement on his part? I mean, if we're going back to the beginning of the series, then we also have to take into consideration his admiration of Maria and talking about how he "didn't hate" Ayumu. He's taken Hina on dates since then and has outright said that the thought of seducing her has never crossed his mind.

Originally Posted by Bastion_Arcion

He doesn't think that she could have the same feelings for him, because she didn't respond when he did admit his feelings

When did he "admit his feelings"?

[zodanhko]

Originally Posted by Bastion_Arcion

He did state it with his mouth and his mind, just a little garbled, during his stay at her house.
And if you don't want to trust body language, you're missing most of the story, including the stuff in regards to Athena. His mouth makes it clear what his body is saying in the first place.
He doesn't think that she could have the same feelings for him, because she didn't respond when he did admit his feelings, even Nagi knows it, and doesn't trust his claims to the opposite.
I really hope you're more street-smart than the characters in the story.

You really think that Hayate liked Hina through his bodily movements during his stay at her house, which was hundreds of chapters before the events in Atene, after you witnessed his confession for Athena in front Hina.

If it's so, if I may, I don't think it's practical for you in real life yet.


Edit: Oh wow...the kicking in the stomach, the financial ordeal, the witch statement by Hinagiku,etc...,where have I heard these before. DAMMIT!!! I just can't figure it out although they have been used over and over again...Need some rest...Good Night.

[Mentar]

Originally Posted by zodanhko

You really think that Hayate liked Hina through his bodily movements during his stay at her house, which was hundreds of chapters before the events in Atene, after you witnessed his confession for Athena in front Hina.

Hm? That there is a mutual attraction between the two which particularly shows when they are touching each other has been confirmed many times throughout the manga, and if the "playing house" scene is too much in the past for you, think of the Greece scene when Hina was fleeing and Hayate was pulling her back from the cliff. They obviously stayed in this position for quite some time and were seemingly about to kiss when Aika interrupted them, and they acted like pupils caught by a teacher

Edit: Oh wow...the kicking in the stomach, the financial ordeal, the witch statement by Hinagiku,etc...,where have I heard these before. DAMMIT!!! I just can't figure it out although they have been used over and over again...Need some rest...Good Night.

Chapter 88.

I'll answer to musouka after I find my eyeballs again. Guess they popped out of their sockets when I read her replies to B_A and me ^_^;

[leoblack9]

Might as well enjoy the landscape. Hata already raised a death flag for one particular character, if he wants the series to continue that is into a merry go round trip to forever land.

[musouka]

There is a "mutual attraction" between Hayate and nearly every attractive girl in the series that he's spent any length of one-on-one time with. As far as the cliff goes, he's had similar scenes with Maria and nothing has come of it. We don't see him devoting thought to Hinagiku like he does Athena or act captivated by her in general the way he was when he first saw Athena smile.

[madmac]

As far as the cliff goes, he's had similar scenes with Maria and nothing has come of it.

Maria was the first girl in the story Hayate openly showed any sort of romantic interest in, and she was the last girl before Athena (Her own panel, even) he thought of in Chapter 239. For all that Maria has been practically written out of the story, (And not especially interested in Hayate, either) it's probably safe to assume she represents Hayate's ideal woman.

It's true though that he hasn't demonstrated any particular preoccupation with Hina other then trying (and failing) to stay on her good side.

[Mentar]

Originally Posted by musouka

There is a "mutual attraction" between Hayate and nearly every attractive girl in the series that he's spent any length of one-on-one time with.

Er, no. He's not prone to blushing dealing with Nagi, Ayumu, Sakuya, and all the others, looks or not. And all the physical-touching scenes aside, he's also been guffawing at Hina during the dinner, lecturing her multiple times that she's too open and unaware of her charm, etc. That essentially only happened with Athena, Maria and Hina.

We don't see him devoting thought to Hinagiku like he does Athena or act captivated by her in general the way he was when he first saw Athena smile.

No need to be so defensive. That Athena is in the highest favor of Hata... er... Hayate has never really been in doubt. (Edit: Before this is misunderstood: Never been in doubt after the end of the Greece arc)

[Bastion_Arcion]

Originally Posted by Mentar

Er, no. He's not prone to blushing dealing with Nagi, Ayumu, Sakuya, and all the others, looks or not. And all the physical-touching scenes aside, he's also been guffawing at Hina during the dinner, lecturing her multiple times that she's too open and unaware of her charm, etc. That essentially only happened with Athena, Maria and Hina.

Hinagiku and Nagi seem to be the tops of Hayate's interest. The 'lecturing her about being to open and unladylike' started with Nagi's poses while she reads her manga/plays her handheld game systems. And when Hinagiku does make an effort to appear ladylike, most notably at the 'dates', he clearly stares at her, which isn't how he reacts to Maria. Amusingly ironic since he claims to like older women, and yet the two that he seems most interested in are both younger than him.

Maria's interaction is entirely physically-based, which seems to make her uncomfortable every time it's played up.
Maybe he has some attraction to Sakuya, but that seems to be the same level as Maria, though some factor of mental may play a part.

Ayumu may be because he's known her the longest, I just can't see it playing out as a full romantic option. Maybe a 'first-lover' type of thing before he realizes what he really feels for the others, and Nishizawa would help him to realize that, because she seems to want him to end up with Hina-tan.

Athena's interest appears to be of a loving respect. She's probably had the least romantic interaction with him out of the entire harem (including Kotetsu).

[Mentar]

Originally Posted by musouka

Yes? I mean, I don't really understand what you're asking for here.

I already explained it, but I'll try once more. To give characters balance, Hata tends to pick their primary traits and shows how "too much of it" has negative sideeffects, to peg them down a few notches. Nagi's riches lead to her lack of common sense and make her look a bit silly, e.g. when she doesn't know how to buy a train ticket. Maria's care-bear "can do everything perfectly and maturely" trait will come back to needle her when people expect her to be "old" (to which she angrily retorts that she's a fresh seventeen-year-old). Hina's "cooler than the boys" results in her being overly shy about it, causing her to doubt her feminine appeal, with all the razzing it brings.

Athena doesn't have any such balance. Her assertiveness, her tendency for secrecy and big drama, her capriciousness - all would offer opportunities for at least some sort of comeuppance, but in the end, she's saved by all and handed victory on a platter.

Not for her sake, for Hayate's sake.

Oh, is that so? I thought I remembered Hina sending Hayate to Athena at the end of their date. I thought I remember Isumi taking big risks to save Athena. And besides, this whole BS wouldn't have been any problem for anyone in the first place, if it hadn't been Athena's mess that Hayate was dragged into. I guess it's going to be Hayate's problem again which is looming on the horizon.

Considering your track record as far as understanding and predicting what Athena will do is pretty abysmal, you'll forgive me if you'll take your assumptions as to how much danger she's in and how much help she'll need with a rather large grain of salt.

Sorry, but it was me who correctly predicted how things would turn out before the showdown. It was me who correctly predicted that it remained to be seen whether or not Athena would really release Hayate. I remember a "HAH! TOLD YOU HOW GREAT SHE IS!" reaction from the Athena faction when I gave kudos to Athena for (seemingly) release Hayate. And I remember how cheerful and "so don't care" the same faction was when in the end, I turned out to be right yet again after all when she reneged.

As much as you may hate it, my track record with Athena is depressingly excellent.

She said she would see Hayate again in the chapter where they left one another. You always make it sound like she renegs on her her deals when really you just don't seem to read what she's actually saying.

"It means... this is farewell. Don't look so sad. It's not like we're seperated by death. We may not have many chances to meet, but don't worry. We will meet again some day."

If you don't see a disconnect between these lines and Athena waking him up at night barely a few weeks later, then you're qualified to be an A-tan shipper

So let me be blunt here: Yes, Athena tends to renege on her words all the time. Dramatic proclamations which lose their meanings 2-3 chapters after are commonplace. "Don't worry about me, I'm fine" is going to be the next entry in this particular log, wanna bet? Yes or no?

And, yes, she did give up the possibility of having Hayate in her life at that moment. Now she'll have to work if she wants to regain her place, like every other girl in the series.

Hey, she "rejected" Hayate only a few weeks ago, and she's not reneging on her words, as A-tan specialist Musouka just reminded us. So why would she "want to regain her place"? Naah. Hata loves the girl, so he just reaffirmed her special role. The little princess waves her finger, that will be enough.

Flaunt your strength? Man, you really seem to have issues with confident women...

Oh, just the opposite, I prefer them. It's just that A-tan has a few character traits I learned to be very wary of.

Yep, I liked that a lot. Hayate doesn't think of any other girl like her, nor is he as physically close to any other girl. But that's not Athena's fault either. Any of the other girls could have what she does if they really wanted to.

... if the author would permit it. Yep.

[musouka]

Originally Posted by Mentar

Athena doesn't have any such balance. Her assertiveness, her tendency for secrecy and big drama, her capriciousness - all would offer opportunities for at least some sort of comeuppance, but in the end, she's saved by all and handed victory on a platter.

And Athena's inflexiblity and assurance that she knows the right path nearly led to the entire world being in deep trouble. It also meant that she gave up on Hayate instead of trying to find an option that would allow for everyone to be happy. It meant that in EotW, she banked on him following her lead without question. Her confidence is in fact very double edged because it means that she tries to forge ahead on her own and gets in over her head or things don't turn out the way she planned because she doesn't take the time to explain.

Originally Posted by Mentar

Oh, is that so? I thought I remembered Hina sending Hayate to Athena at the end of their date.

Because it was tearing Hayate apart emotionally. She doesn't say a single thing about Athena's feelings.

Originally Posted by Mentar

I thought I remember Isumi taking big risks to save Athena.

Because she pointed out that this could have terrible rammifications for the world.

Originally Posted by Mentar

And besides, this whole BS wouldn't have been any problem for anyone in the first place, if it hadn't been Athena's mess that Hayate was dragged into.

Which says absolutely nothing about how many of the crew were sticking their necks out for Athena herself as opposed to helping a friend of a friend.

Originally Posted by Mentar

Sorry, but it was me who correctly predicted how things would turn out before the showdown. It was me who correctly predicted that it remained to be seen whether or not Athena would really release Hayate. I remember a "HAH! TOLD YOU HOW GREAT SHE IS!" reaction from the Athena faction when I gave kudos to Athena for (seemingly) release Hayate. And I remember how cheerful and "so don't care" the same faction was when in the end, I turned out to be right yet again after all when she reneged.

You also predicted that Hayate had no lingering feelings for her. That Athena would be the main villain of the entire series. That Athena would die tragically. That Athena was going to try to keep him from Nagi. That Athena was going to bow out of the story forever. So, yeah, your track record? Not as hot as you make it seem.

Originally Posted by Mentar

"It means... this is farewell. Don't look so sad. It's not like we're seperated by death. We may not have many chances to meet, but don't worry. We will meet again some day."

If you don't see a disconnect between these lines and Athena waking him up at night barely a few weeks later, then you're qualified to be an A-tan shipper

I'm not at a place where I can check, but I believe the line in the Japanese is more along the lines of "we'll still be able to meet occasionally", which, yeah is what she did. I'm also surprised to see her back in the plot so soon, but not terribly offended by it. Especially since she only talked to him for a few minutes. It's not like she moved into his apartment building.

Originally Posted by Mentar

So let me be blunt here: Yes, Athena tends to renege on her words all the time. Dramatic proclamations which lose their meanings 2-3 chapters after are commonplace. "Don't worry about me, I'm fine" is going to be the next entry in this particular log, wanna bet? Yes or no?

Considering how her seeming transformation into a child doesn't seem to be particularly life threatening or world shattering, I don't see her being a damsel in distress, though she might very well ask Hayate or Hinagiku for their assistance if it comes to it.

Originally Posted by Mentar

Hey, she "rejected" Hayate only a few weeks ago, and she's not reneging on her words, as A-tan specialist Musouka just reminded us. So why would she "want to regain her place"?

Because she's in love with him even now? She set him free. Hayate can choose any girl he wants to pursue a relationship with now without feeling in the back of his mind that he's betraying his childhood promise to her. I can't imagine not seeing the value in that.

Originally Posted by Mentar

Oh, just the opposite, I prefer them. It's just that A-tan has a few character traits I learned to be very wary of.

[ridgezipline]

Originally Posted by Mentar

Athena doesn't have any such balance. Her assertiveness, her tendency for secrecy and big drama, her capriciousness - all would offer opportunities for at least some sort of comeuppance, but in the end, she's saved by all and handed victory on a platter.

the balance was her turning into a toddler... for now. it's gonna pile up soon if she becomes a regular

[aeromono]

Originally Posted by Mentar

To give characters balance, Hata tends to pick their primary traits and shows how "too much of it" has negative side effects, to peg them down a few notches.

You're more or less correct, but you shouldn't think of it as 'balancing factors', they're more like moe factors. Naturally, the girls have to be a little sweet and insecure in order for the male readers to like. We can't have them always being perfect, AND confident (that would make the existence of a male partner and external support almost unnecessary) can we ?

I like how you think Maria worrying about being called 'old' suddenly makes her less perfect than Athena. Their worries, concerns, negative traits ... are, as you can see, superficial and only add to their degree of cuteness, in order to appeal to the (male) fans. But where is this 'factor' for Athena that would help her appeal to the fans one might ask ? Well, is she already popular with the fans ? It probably has something to do with the desire to save a damsel in distress, to regain honor and fulfill a broken oath, that sort of thing... Or just being sweet to the main character in those intimate moments. Well, I don't think you were disagreeing that she's already appealing to the fans anyway.


You conclude that it is favoritism. Well, I feel that the conclusion is correct, there is favoritism, I've heard that Athena was supposed to be Nagi at first, and that the author likes her (though I don't really know if this is true). But how you arrived at that conclusion is unconvincing. Because obviously, Maria, Hinagiku, Athena are already super perfect (even their supposedly 'negative' traits you listed are only to make them more likeable). And Hina stole the show with her Hinamatsuri arc anyway (as Nagi often painfully lampshaded in the anime). Everyone has their own days in the limelight. The girls are obviously crafted to be likeable. Saying any of them is too perfect is a perfect way to miss the point. (I doubt anyone was following this series for the realism anyway, it's just wacky fun)

It's funny, though, because for those who have just seen the anime, they would accuse Hinagiku of being a Mary Sue (I understand this term might be too loaded for some people). Well, it turns out there are more Mary Sues in store for them in this series. And lest everyone forget, we haven't got to Maria's arc yet (and her unexplained connections to Athena).

Anyway, chibi Athena is HNGGHHHHH.

P.S. : How people can dislike any of this lovable cast (enough to go on whole sagas to discredit them, or interpret their actions as being malignant) is beyond me. And there's even a track record being kept ? Well, personal vendetta is personal.

[musouka]

Originally Posted by aeromono

But where is this 'factor' for Athena that would help her appeal to the fans one might ask ? Well, is she already popular with the fans ? It probably has something to do with the desire to save a damsel in distress, to regain honor and fulfill a broken oath, that sort of thing... Or just being sweet to the main character in those intimate moments.

On 2ch, I remember there being a heated discussion around the time of the Athens arc where people were upset because Athena was popular with fangirls and they thought there might be enough of them to upset the popularity poll. For me, Athena falls into a role that's very appealing (and mirrored by a couple of my other favorite characters, Sheryl Nome and Beatrice) in that she's confident, very much in love with the main character, but it feels like she's doing Important Shit on her own time instead of orbiting around the main character and what he does.

I'm not trying to bash on the other characters. As you said, all of them were made to be lovable. I really do like Nagi, Maria, Ayumu, Isumi, and, yes, I do like Hina. It's just that I have a preference for Athena due to those factors. I don't think she's going to end up with Hayate. I don't think she's the main heroine of the series. I just like the series more when she's a part of it.