Psycho-Pass - Episode 11 Discussion / Poll

[Dengar]

Originally Posted by Eclipze

Like the episode where they were in a network-disable factory that completely shuts down the use of the dominator? It's retarded how the weapon is completely unusable without connecting to the system, so all it takes is to shut down/disable the system, even for a few hours, and all the criminals can come out to play. This is why the lack of a manual override is bad.

You are describing two completely different things here.

One is an area where the gizmo is inoperable (they got around that by the way). The other is a situation where the gizmo is telling you that the guy who is killing your friend is not a criminal.

How are these situations even remotely comparable?

[Roger Rambo]

Originally Posted by Cosmic Eagle

Well no worries, since he'll have a high chance of being offed in the end...

The question which is more important is that this being a Gen show, will he get offed in a manner that utterly crushes and defeats his screwed up views or will he annoyingly, get the last laugh in

The latter would piss me off so much.

Despite how fucked up the Psycho-pass world is...none of it justifies Makishima being the way he is. He's just a mass murderer. And he probably would have been one regardless of what time period he was born in. His pseudo revolutionary facade is both pretentious and irritating. This is just the particular manifestation of his murder philosophy because of the time period he was born in. He'd probably have just rationalized something slightly different in a different time or place.


So I am definitely hoping for him to get his shit ruined eventually. Somebody needs to call bullshit on him.





I'd say a bigger problem perhaps with the Dominator is that the scan time really makes it inappropriate to use under real combat conditions against armed opponents. The chances of Kougami getting wounded that second time would have been considerably lower if he'd been able to take a shot immediately against the hunter cyborg. Since the hunter spotted Kougami as the Dominator was scanning, he was able to quickly take a shot after his arm got blown off. If he'd taken a hit before he'd seen Kougami, Kougami might have been able to get a second shot off while hunter man was trying to locate him.

It's definitely a weapon made with the presumption of a disarmed populace.

[SolarAquarion]

I could imagine Akane being by a range and practicing shooting gunpowder based weapons after this episode. How about a dominator handgun crossbreed?

[ThereminVox]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

But Akane's an inspector. She should have elevated privileges.

Exactly. The fact that she apparently doesn't says a lot about the nature of the Bureau.

It's a law enforcement system that seems to neither need nor desire human input. Lack of manual override is probably not a bug, but a feature.

[Roger Rambo]

Originally Posted by SolarAquarion

I could imagine Akane being by a range and practicing shooting gunpowder based weapons after this episode. How about a dominator handgun crossbreed?

Assuming she could get access to them.


Though what do you mean a dominator handgun cross breed? Are you talking about a slug-thrower with dominator sybil systems, or a Dominator sans sybil systems? The former sounds like a massive downgrade compared to a regular dominator (none of the firepower, all of the restraints), and the later sounds like specialized custom equipment that a rookie like Akane probably wouldn't be given access to.


The most she could probably expect is for our Enforcer friend to know where to get access to some old style firearms...other wise? She's gonna be reliant on Kogami training himself to be a killing machine without the aid of a dominator.

[Eclipze]

Originally Posted by Dengar

You are describing two completely different things here.

One is an area where the gizmo is inoperable (they got around that by the way). The other is a situation where the gizmo is telling you that the guy who is killing your friend is not a criminal.

How are these situations even remotely comparable?

You should look at your own post...

Originally Posted by Dengar

What obvious inherent limitations?


Of course I would especially like an explanation of how it is "obvious", from an in-character point of view.

Does that look like you were talking about the current situation? You merely asked for obvious inherent limitations for the Dominator in general, and you clearly did NOT specify this situation.

[Dengar]

The post I was quoting was stating (it seemed to me anyways) that Akane was being dumb and/or pathetic because she just froze like that. When freezing up is a natural in a situation that's too unbelievable to be real.

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

However, I don't think that Makishima being disappointed in her is hard to understand.

Yes, it's because he's crazy and Akane isn't a cold blooded killer. Boo freaking hoo.

I mean, if the same situation unfolds with Kougami in Akane's spot, I'm inclined to think that Kougami puts down the Dominator, uses the shotgun with both hands, and blows Makishima away.

Now? Sure, he'd kill Makishima with his bare hands if given a chance. (Though my point about the difficulty of aiming an unfamiliar weapon stands.) But he's had years to get used to the idea of violence. And of working outside the system. Back when he was 19? That's another story.

[Roger Rambo]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

Yes, it's because he's crazy and Akane isn't a cold blooded killer. Boo freaking hoo.

I think people in this thread might actually be underestimating the kind of psychological barriers that keep most people from wanting to kill each-other. And that's not accounting for the kind of indoctrination that Akane would have gotten, to put her faith in the system and let it control the matter of judgement. And Akane's training didn't prepare her to kill people. She was trained to reign in the Enforcers, with the explicit idea that they'd usually be the trigger-men.

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

Now? Sure, he'd kill Makishima with his bare hands if given a chance. (Though my point about the difficulty of aiming an unfamiliar weapon stands.) But he's had years to get used to the idea of violence. And of working outside the system. Back when he was 19? That's another story.

Of course it's questionable if Makishima would really have been so suicidal as to give the hardened state sanctioned murder squad a weapon to kill him with. He might have been willing to afford Akane, the rookie investigator who didn't have the same predatory inclinations, the chance so he could fuck around with her, but it'd be kinda suicidal to try that with say Mazaoka.

[Cosmic Eagle]

Originally Posted by Roger Rambo

I think people in this thread might actually be underestimating the kind of psychological barriers that keep most people from wanting to kill each-other. And that's not accounting for the kind of indoctrination that Akane would have gotten, to put her faith in the system and let it control the matter of judgement. And Akane's training didn't prepare her to kill people. She was trained to reign in the Enforcers, with the explicit idea that they'd usually be the trigger-men.

Quite dumb training too though, seeing how Gino regularly is at the frontlines too.

As for psychological barriers. Clear Hued people in command of execution operations (because face it, Public Safety Bureau is just a cold blooded kill squad which society approves of rather than a police force) when clear hue means that they are generally the kind of people you want as your friends, the nice people etc. Makes little sense really.

[Reticia]

Best episode I've seen this year.

I think Makishima is disappointed in Akane because he thought she could act against the principles of the system, like all the persons he was in relation with. She was his guinea pig in this scene, and he thought she was promising. Which she is not. Promising.

[Roger Rambo]

Originally Posted by Reticia

Best episode I've seen this year.

I think Makishima is disappointed in Akane because he thought she could act against the principles of the system, like all the persons he was in relation with. She was his guinea pig in this scene, and he thought she was promising. Which she is not. Promising.

I'm not sure being *promising* for Makishima is a good thing.


It is interesting though. We DO know that Akane can use her own judgement over the system. We saw that in the first episode where she wasn't willing to have the victim be judged, because she recognized her as a victim. I think we can see that the primary reason Akane can resist the systems at times, is because she's reluctant to casually let acts of violence be carried out.


In that sense, I find Makishima's attitude rather boorish. Makishima talks about letting people's true selves out in opposition to the system...but to him, that just seems to involve wanton sadism. It brings up a question. How is Makishima somehow more *liberated* than Akane for being willing to kill in opposition to the system, as opposed to being willing not to kill against the systems wishes?

I mean look. Who are all the people that Makishima gives a chance to express themselves? Mass murderers. Does that mean the only *repressed* desires that Makishima finds worthwhile are fundamentally violent and sadistic ones? I'd be very surprised if he was using his resources to let a regular person who had potential the system couldn't evaluate to try to succeed at something they'd always dreamed of. That really says more about Makishima than the system he seems to have a gripe with.


Makishima may color everything he does with fancy language, philosophy and expensive books, so far, my impression of him is that he's just an overly well dressed knife wielding thug.

[Qilin]

Originally Posted by Roger Rambo

In that sense, I find Makishima's attitude rather boorish. Makishima talks about letting people's true selves out in opposition to the system...but to him, that just seems to involve wanton sadism. It brings up a question. How is Makishima somehow more *liberated* than Akane for being willing to kill in opposition to the system, as opposed to being willing not to kill against the systems wishes?

I mean look. Who are all the people that Makishima gives a chance to express themselves? Mass murderers. Does that mean the only *repressed* desires that Makishima finds worthwhile are fundamentally violent and sadistic ones? I'd be very surprised if he was using his resources to let a regular person who had potential the system couldn't evaluate to try to succeed at something they'd always dreamed of. That really says more about Makishima than the system he seems to have a gripe with.

Makishima may color everything he does with fancy language, philosophy and expensive books, so far, my impression of him is that he's just an overly well dressed knife wielding thug.

You have to look at it from his perspective if you want to get it.

If you pick up on all the things they've been spouting in the last episodes, Makishima and his accomplices don't view the individuals who willingly subject themselves to the system as "human". I mean, they've pretty much relinquished much of their humanity for the sake of the convenience that the system and technology provides. The Dominator is a strong example of this as it shows how they've even given up their right to judge other human beings to technology. That cyborg hunter, along with any of his spiels, expresses such a sentiment. In a sense, humans are dumbing themselves down into machines thereby losing their right to refer to themselves as human.

This is all concerning how one perceives human nature. So yes. Makishima Shogo is an abhorrent criminal of the worst kind from the perspective of society, but he is undeniably a visionary. He tries scout out and nurture those dregs of "humanity" he finds in different individuals. But let me just say that, given the system's nature, such individuals have little choice but to become deviants thmselves.

I'm not condoning his actions, but he is definitely several tiers above the common thug.

[Anh_Minh]

They could emigrate where there is no Sybil system. They could try to prove the system wrong by being altruistic. But no, they commit horrific murders.

Makishima's smart, and as such, is able to rationalize his urge to kill as well as see flaws in the system. But he could do that in any system.

[Cosmic Eagle]

Makishima is visionary only as far as making things blacker in a pitch black system is visionary. Rather than go against the sytem by trying to reverse its effects, he goes with the natural flow by reacting badly against the system....thereby warranting the system's existence. So yeah, he's just an egoistic prick

[Qilin]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

They could emigrate where there is no Sybil system. They could try to prove the system wrong by being altruistic. But no, they commit horrific murders.

Makishima's smart, and as such, is able to rationalize his urge to kill as well as see flaws in the system. But he could do that in any system.

Urge to kill? Makishima hasn't killed anyone. Rather, its those individuals that he "enlightens" that do the killing you speak of. Of course, I don't think he cares about those lives he indirectly takes. But if you want to degrade him into someone who's just looking for an excuse to kill then I would disagree with you. He has a goal, and the lives he takes are nothing more than a means to a higher end.

I'm not going to argue that he has the good of society in mind in the things he does because he probably doesn't, but he sure as heck isn't thinking of something as petty as killing people for fun.

Originally Posted by Cosmic Eagle

Makishima is visionary only as far as making things blacker in a pitch black system is visionary. Rather than go against the sytem by trying to reverse its effects, he goes with the natural flow by reacting badly against the system....thereby warranting the system's existence. So yeah, he's just an egoistic prick

His very existence warrants the system's disintegration if that wasn't already apparent.

His actions seem to suggest that wants to stretch the limits of the game for as far as they can possibly go. I can't exactly say whether he has some higher goal in mind, he is at least intent on exposing the flaws within the entire system in the most brutal way possible.

So yeah. He is an egoistic prick. From his perspective, he is one of the few human beings left that have yet to relinquish their souls to the convenience provided by the system, so his attitude is expected. He has an ideal that he's moving towards, and he doesn't care how he reaches it. That's all it takes to be a visionary.

If you want to argue about the morality of his actions or "what he should have done", you won't find a peep from me. But it's already clear that he doesn't care about the people he runs over to get his point across. The idea is to see things from his perspective.

[Roger Rambo]

Originally Posted by Qilin

I'm not condoning his actions, but he is definitely several tiers above the common thug.

No, he's a thug whose fancied up his motivation to kill people up with layers and layers of bullshit. Slicing up some innocent girls throat while spouting philosophical bullshit doesn't change what you're doing.


You're seriously naive if you think something like Makishima wouldn't be just as motivated to kill if he lived in our present day society. Really. Is someone like Yuki or Rakako's classmates far enough removed from president day people to even in the slightest justify the notion to a non insane person that they're subhumans who can be casually killed for your amusement?

Originally Posted by Qilin

He tries scout out and nurture those dregs of "humanity" he finds in different individuals. But let me just say that, given the system's nature, such individuals have little choice but to become deviants thmselves.

WHY?!

Why is the opposite of slavish obedience to the Sybil system enabling fuckwit psychopaths to go on murder sprees? There is FAR more to human existence than murdering other people.

Originally Posted by Qilin

Urge to kill? Makishima hasn't killed anyone.

...wut?


...and don't try to pull this "Oh it was Akane who was the one who was really responsible for getting Yuki killed" nonsense with me. Makishima grabbed Yuki after the *game* was over, handcuffed her to the railing, and slit her fucking throat. No matter what kinda of bullshit he tries to espouse to shift the blame onto someone for the crime of not being a ruthless as him, he's still the one that fucking did it.


And helping plus observing murderers commit crimes from afar is just as fucking bad as doing it yourself. A mob boss who outfits his soldiers to carry out assassinations is just as involved in what they do.

[Qilin]

Originally Posted by Roger Rambo

No, he's a thug whose fancied up his motivation to kill people up with layers and layers of bullshit. Slicing up some innocent girls throat while spouting philosophical bullshit doesn't change what you're doing.

Oh, yes. He's a killer, but murder is just means to an end. Murder is murder, I can assure you. However, the fact remains that he doesn't engage in it for its own sake.

I can tell that the act of murdering a defenseless woman disgusts you, and I can relate to that. But setting him aside him as some desperate cutthroat is too grave an oversimplification of his character.

Originally Posted by Roger Rambo

You're seriously naive if you think something like Makishima wouldn't be just as motivated to kill if he lived in our present day society. Really. Is someone like Yuki or Rakako's classmates far enough removed from president day people to even in the slightest justify the notion to a non insane person that they're subhumans who can be casually killed for your amusement?

That's quite right. And here's we get into the meat of the matter: The world of Psycho-Pass is meant to be analogous to the world we live in right now. As such, Makishima's disgust towards that world also applies to the world we live in right now. Also, another misunderstanding of yours is the idea that Makishima kills for amusement. He doesn't. He does it to make a point.

I'm pretty sure that doesn't excuse him of his atrocities one bit, but let's just look at things as they are instead of blowing them out of proportion. Also, please note that I'm not trying to justify his actions (the notion of "justification" is subjective, and is hence pointless to discuss), I'm just giving you a small glimpse of his perspective as a character.

Originally Posted by Roger Rambo

WHY?!

Why is the opposite of slavish obedience to the Sybil system enabling fuckwit psychopaths to go on murder sprees? There is FAR more to human existence than murdering other people.

Oh, I'm sure there were probably more peaceful ways to make the same point. He probably just chose what he believed to be the quicker, more efficient way. As for the human lives it cost? He just didn't care. Everyone who died would probably amount to no more than collateral damage in his eyes.

But do take note there a difference between killing for the pleasure of it and killing because it's the more convenient thing to do.

Originally Posted by Roger Rambo

...and don't try to pull this "Oh it was Akane who was the one who was really responsible for getting Yuki killed" nonsense with me. Makishima grabbed Yuki after the *game* was over, handcuffed her to the railing, and slit her fucking throat. No matter what kinda of bullshit he tries to espouse to shift the blame onto someone for the crime of not being a ruthless as him, he's still the one that fucking did it.


And helping plus observing murderers commit crimes from afar is just as fucking bad as doing it yourself. A mob boss who outfits his soldiers to carry out assassinations is just as involved in what they do.

I'll admit that I forgot that Makishima killed Yuki when I made that comment, but my points remain unchanged. I'm still unconvinced that he has this compulsion to kill as you're suggesting. Murder is merely a tool and probably nothing more to him.

This entire comment of yours fails to take the notion of moral relativity into account. What you perceive as "bad" is not the same as what Makishima perceives as "bad". If you're unable to make sense of his actions, you have understand how he thinks first. You both have different notions of "morality" and humanity", so you should take that into account.

Once again, I'm not defending his actions. I just want to prevent him from being boxed into a narrow-minded interpretation of his character. Let's judge him as a character rather than as a person, shall we?

[Roger Rambo]

Originally Posted by Qilin

Oh, yes. He's a killer, but murder is just means to an end. Murder is murder, I can assure you. However, the fact remains that he doesn't engage in it for its own sake.

I can tell that the act of murdering a defenseless woman disgusts you, and I can relate to that. But setting him aside him as some desperate cutthroat is too grave an oversimplification of his character.

My question is more along the lines of WHAT makes Makishima better/more respectable than some cutthroat? The fact that he talks fancy and has ludicriously expensive first edition copies of 1984?

Originally Posted by Qilin

That's quite right. And here's we get into the meat of the matter: The world of Psycho-Pass is meant to be analogous to the world we live in right now. As such, Makishima's disgust towards that world also applies to the world we live in right now. Also, another misunderstanding of yours is the idea that Makishima kills for amusement. He doesn't. He does it to make a point.

I'm pretty sure that doesn't excuse him of his atrocities one bit, but let's just look at things as they are instead of blowing them out of proportion. Also, please note that I'm not trying to justify his actions (the notion of "justification" is subjective, and is hence pointless to discuss), I'm just giving you a small glimpse of his perspective as a character.

I'm quite aware of that point, and I've had it in the back of my mind. All Science fiction is fundamentally about our present day life. To make the issues more relatable to us...which is probably one reason I roll my eyes at people who go "Well if only Makishima wasn't in this horrible future dystopia! Then he wouldn't have to kill!"


Here's the thing you don't get though. I AM seeing Makishima's perspective on things...but for me, seeing that perspective from someone like that just emphasizes the need for them to be killed/incapacitated immediately.

Originally Posted by Qilin

But do take note there a difference between killing for the pleasure of it and killing because it's the more convenient thing to do.

There is a difference, but why should I care about the difference?

For somebody who has to intervene or do damage control for the victims, what's the difference between a mass murderer who sadistically derived pleasure from killing, and a politically motivated mass Murderer like Brevik? Is Brevik somehow more dignified because he wrote a manifesto?

Originally Posted by Qilin

I'll admit that I forgot that Makishima killed Yuki when I made that comment, but my points remain unchanged. I'm still unconvinced that he has this compulsion to kill as you're suggesting. Murder is merely a tool and probably nothing more to him.

That's a pretty big thing to forget. Seeing as how it was the big dramatic mid series finale.

Originally Posted by Qilin

This entire comment of yours fails to take the notion of moral relativity into account. What you perceive as "bad" is not the same as what Makishima perceives as "bad". If you're unable to make sense of his actions, you have understand how he thinks first. You both have different notions of "morality" and humanity", so you should take that into account.

What makes you think I don't understand that Makishima has a different perspective on all of this? That's lunacy. What you seem to be doing though, is assuming that acknowledging that someone has a different perspective on morality than you means that you HAVE to take it into account.

If a hungry tiger or a man with a knife is lunging towards you, do you take it's perspective into account before deciding to raise and fire your rifle? Only if you're a weirdo who doesn't mind dying to satisfy a tigers hunger or whatever motivation the guy with the knife had.


Moral relativism is only useful when it's used as a tool to help foster tolerance between different groups that have different world views, but that are capable of peaceful coexistence. It's nonsensical navel gazing when coexistence is impossible. There are allot of times to put yourself in another parties shoes, but not when they're trying to off you or somebody you like.

Originally Posted by Qilin

Once again, I'm not defending his actions. I just want to prevent him from being boxed into a narrow-minded interpretation of his character. Let's judge him as a character rather than as a person, shall we?

I'm not sure what that'd accomplish. As a character, my assessment of Makishima is pretty much the same, if more detached.


Don't get me wrong. I LIKE Makishima as a villain character. But he's the kind of villain that's good simply because of how monstrous he is to me personally.

[Dengar]

I... don't quite understand the deal with the current society suppressing people. In the end, it only suppresses violent tendencies. So I don't quite understand the complaints about Makishima "focusing only on violent people" when violent people are the only ones being suppressed in the first place.