[Game] Umineko - Spoilers, Theories, Interpretations

[RandomUser]

Also if Beatrice was really the culprit, Eva didn't need to hide the truth for Ange, except if the accomplices helped Beatrice willingly and those accomplices were Eva or Battler (I don't think it possible because in the first four games he wasn't the culprit stated in red, but if he really were an accomplice then Tohya had a reason for not wanting to become Battler) or Battler + Kyrie + Rudolf or Kyrie + Rudolf.
If I'm seeing the heart of the mystery, it would make much more sense that the actual killers were Ange's family while Shanon only wanted to make an interesting party for Battler to remember his promise and my theory for that is:
1) Shanon motive doesn't make sense unless she was a real phycopath + Heavy Yandere.
2) In the second and fourth game she killed herself, while the ingame motives were to make a mysterious murder or because George didn't accepted her as a murderer, it may signify that in the real world she killed herself because she felt responsible when creating the fake-murder game which ended with real people dying, that would explain why Battler wanted to escape together with Beatrice, because I don't think he would forgive the one who masacrated his entire family (unless he is the real accomplice).
3) Ange tried to deny with all her might Eva's diary and I don't think she would do that if Beatrice was the real killer and her family only the forced accomplices.
4) The final game, the game which Battler made for Ange was actually a halloween party, in the second game halloween was a motif, halloween is the ceremony of witches and also one where the dead people return to the mortal world. The connection I made were the party and the dead people returning which I interpret as a fun game + people faking death.
5) Piece Yasu motive is really incomprehensible unless he is a real phycopath + Heavy Yandere or it was a hint which meaning is in the tip of my tongue but I can give it form yet sorry.
6) Beatice said that another tragedy, a minor one compared to the mass-murder, would ocurr if Battler had come a year after or a year before, so I think that Battler was the key to solving the epitaph and the adult would have started to kill each other anyways, it's just that the fake murder game made it possible to kill everyone.

My theory of the real Ushiromiya case is:
Natsuhi was Sayo's accomplice from the beggining, she was really loyal to the Ushiromiya head and maybe she felt so guilty about trying to kill Sayo that she told him the truth and he forgave her. Natsuhi knew the true idendity of Sayo because she saw Kinzo treating him specially good or because Genji told her that Sayo was Kinzo's son and she made 2+2 (Kinzo gave her a baby and he had a son). Maybe Krauss also knew it.
In the Lambdadelta game which was a game with tons of hints, Beatrice and Natsuhi had a very close relationship, that could mean that Sayo and Natsuhi got along after he forgave her.
Sayo soborned the adults to play a mystery party for Battler and promised to split the gold to the family if Battler solved it.
In almost every game Beatrice sends a card saying that the rewards for solving the epitaph is the gold which means that in the real world Beatrice really promised that
Battler solved the mystery and the epitaph reaching the gold chamber, each adults were trying to get the gold for themselves and Sayo threatened to destroy the island together with the gold if they do anything rash, but the adults attacked her for fear, the kids tried to protect him and one of them died, probably George (and the first adults to attack Sayo with the children were Kyrie + Rudolf, even if Battler was one of them) and then the adults became crazy and the killing spree started, Battler tried to escape together with Sayo and Eva who was shocked to see her kid's death, she started to blame Sayo saying that it's his fault and separated from them going to Kuwadorian while Battler and Sayo went to the hidden port. In the fight between the adults Rosa won and activated the bomb switch to erase the evidence while pursuing Eva and Battler to remove the last suspects, but the gold was heavy and she didn't know the exact time of the bomb explosion so she couldn't get out of the explosion range.
Only Eva and Battler body survived, in the last game, battler was trying to escape through the port together with Sayo so they probably split from Eva. Eva didn't wanted to tell Ange the truth because the killing was instigated by Kyrie and Rudolf and she together with the rest of the family joined in the killing. Also that's the reason because the truth from the diary was a great shock to Ange


End of this sickingly long post.

Please someone comment about this theory and maybe contradict it because there are parts where even I'm not that sure.

[Mali]

Hi RandomUser,
kind of you for thanking.

About the bottled messages, I just don't understand the reason for writing it except maybe for Tohya to organize his memories better or one of the possible plans of Beatrice and she wanted to replicate that mystery book ending she liked.

Counterquestion: Why should I wrote a bottle message and throw it in the ocean?
(I know a variant where you stick a message on a balloon filled with helium).
Some fictonial crimes have theme that the culprit leaves messages to the police (for different reasons). Sayo had a reason. "Maria" wrote down her wish at the end of EP1.
In addition, Sayo thought the mysteries are a fight between the witch and the reader (Ep7 Gaap and Yasu).

Also if Beatrice was really the culprit, Eva didn't need to hide the truth for Ange, except if the accomplices helped Beatrice willingly and those accomplices were Eva or Battler (I don't think it possible because in the first four games he wasn't the culprit stated in red, but if he really were an accomplice then Tohya had a reason for not wanting to become Battler) or Battler + Kyrie + Rudolf or Kyrie + Rudolf.

EP7 Teaparty is supposed to be the "truth". Many think it's not mystery.
The adults were shown solving the epitaph together. But there is a theory that Sayo might give the solution to Eva.

Battler+Kyrie+Rudolph = culprits were an idea from EP8, even Eva said Ange should not listen to it.

Spoiler for I may be wrong though.:

Bern did't intended that Battler+Rudolph+Kyrie are the solution. George+Eva+Hide and Maria+Rosa+George are possibilities.

Also, there are 2 Battlers in the story, a possible double. So you can choose which red affect Battler.

1) Shanon motive doesn't make sense unless she was a real phycopath + Heavy Yandere.

It's up to you how you see the games, as a kakera or a murder plan. Because of this there are Rosatrice or Ange-culprit-theory ^^.
The red does say that Beatrice did not kill for pleasure or out of revenge, but Sayo could. Think about it.

2) In the second and fourth game she killed herself, while the ingame motives were to make a mysterious murder or because George didn't accepted her as a murderer, it may signify that in the real world she killed herself because she felt responsible when creating the fake-murder game which ended with real people dying, that would explain why Battler wanted to escape together with Beatrice, because I don't think he would forgive the one who masacrated his entire family (unless he is the real accomplice).

Like I said before, it depends on how you see the games. Actually, Sayo has to kill herself to create the illusion that a witch did it.

3) Ange tried to deny with all her might Eva's diary and I don't think she would do that if Beatrice was the real killer and her family only the forced accomplices.

Haha I better hold my opinion back

4) The final game, the game which Battler made for Ange was actually a halloween party, in the second game halloween was a motif, halloween is the ceremony of witches and also one where the dead people return to the mortal world. The connection I made were the party and the dead people returning which I interpret as a fun game + people faking death.

Because of this I don't give my opinion.

5) Piece Yasu motive is really incomprehensible unless he is a real phycopath + Heavy Yandere or it was a hint which meaning is in the tip of my tongue but I can give it form yet sorry.
6) Beatice said that another tragedy, a minor one compared to the mass-murder, would ocurr if Battler had come a year after or a year before, so I think that Battler was the key to solving the epitaph and the adult would have started to kill each other anyways, it's just that the fake murder game made it possible to kill everyone.

I post a quote from a talkpage of the wiki

P.S. Apparently they don't use the term personalities anymore, they use the word "roles". So yeah, apparently Yasu ain't schizo no more and is perfectly aware of what he is doing and is in denial of himself.

I'm not a believer of the "fake murder game". So I set it aside. The tragedy could be the conclusion of the duel Claire mentioned. Either Shannon or Kanon will dissapear in that family conference.


your theory:
Did you put something from every game to build this theory? I think it has many holes. Did the adults help Battler? Why should Beatrice thread the adults while Battler fullfilled her wish? Why no cash card? When did Battler solved the epitaph?

[RandomUser]

I tried putting something from every game but my memory is a little fragil.
I also think there are many holes but it's just that I'm trying to find a motive where Sayo isn't a heavy yandere, because I don't think a normal person would think that the best way for a person to remember a promise is to do mass murder, no matter how shy is that person..
I don't think the adults helped Battler, in the fifth game, which was a free hint gifting game, it's shown that Erika and Battler solved it together, Erika is the representation of the rational mind (my interpretation), so I think that says that Battler think a and solved the epitaph, I mean the adults weren't able to get close to solving it unless they were all together and at the third game Battler was with them.
Beatrice threatened the adults so they won't get cucko for the gold, because she know how greedy all the parents are, but she didn't thought that Kyrie would still have a composed mind and started shooting because she knew of the number advantage (sheep and wolf puzzle), also it's shown in the games that Kyrie would always think that a killing would start if the cash card + bomb appears.
The cash card was the trigger for the shooting, because even though the gold would fall to the ocean the cash card is light enough to carry and escape in time.
I think that Battler solved the epitaph after the first twilight, and then the shooting started.

I want to belive in the fake murder, because that is for me more reasonable than Sayo starting to kill everyone so Battler would remember the promise and to decide to be Shanon, Kanon or Beatrice. By the way is funny to see that Kanon always lose, while Shanon personality, not the body, dies only in the third game and Beatrice is shown to be the one alive in the final game, poor Jessica.
I don't think that the EP7 Tea party is the whole truth, because we are thinking that every other game where Beatrice is the killer are all fake, I still think that every game has a bit of truth.

Again thanks for the kind reply and I'm amazed to see this thread to be alive even though Umineko ended ages ago.

Also I think that the parents are all killer because after the first twilight, they are all killed by the stakes to follow the epitaph, but I think that each stake represent one of the parents and that's a hint saying that every parent was involed in the murder or that parent was the one who killed in that certain game.

By the way this is my connection between stake-parent

1)Lucifer --> Krauss.
They are both the older of the siblings and also hide their inferior complex with pride.

2)Leviathan --> Kyrie.
Obvious, they both are the epitome of envy.

3)Satan --> Natsuhi.
Natsuhi is always scolding furiously at everyone but she feels lonely like Satan.

4)Belphegor --> Hideyoshi
They are both try their best to spoil others people.

5)Mammon --> Eva
They are the most greedy and to sastify it they both work the hardest to get it.

6)Beelzebub --> Rudolf
They both are greedy, but not as hardworking and have the tendecy to capture pretty boys/grils.

7)Asmodeus --> Rosa
They both are the youngest and they are both dreaming/waiting for their prince to come, well more of a worthless scum in Rosa's case.

[AuraTwilight]

I disagree. Lucifer is absolutely keyed to Natsuhi, and Satan to Rosa. Pride and Wrath are their defining character flaws.

Asmodeus belongs to Rudolf, the actual two-timer whose lust and adultery caused a huge chunk of the plot.

Beelzebub belongs to Hideyoshi, who specifically spoils people with candy and spending money, and whose candy wrappers are used to mark Maria's rose, making it a significant trait.

And Krauss is Belphegor, because despite having the power and money of the Ushiromiya family, he squanders it and feels too self-assured of his position as the heir to actually earn it, compared to Eva.

[RandomUser]

At the beggining I also thought like that (Lucifer=Natsuhi, Satan=Rosa, Rudolf=Asmodeus, Hideyoshi=Beelzebub, Krauss=Belphegor), but after reading the tips of every stake siblings I changed my mind.

Lucifer says that she is the sibling with the lower talent. Krauss only has failed projects
Satan always scolds to everyone, but feels lonely. Natsuhi doesn't feel like she is part of the siblings.
Asmodeus is always waiting for her charming prince. Rosa is waiting for Maria's father and also wants to depend of men who ended up abandoning because of Maria.
Belphegor likes to spoil other people. Hideyoshi spoils the kids and Eva.
Beelzebub has a strange habit of kidnapping cute boys. Rudolf used to seduce a lot of cute girls.

[Uberzaki]

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

I disagree. Lucifer is absolutely keyed to Natsuhi, and Satan to Rosa. Pride and Wrath are their defining character flaws.

Asmodeus belongs to Rudolf, the actual two-timer whose lust and adultery caused a huge chunk of the plot.

Beelzebub belongs to Hideyoshi, who specifically spoils people with candy and spending money, and whose candy wrappers are used to mark Maria's rose, making it a significant trait.

And Krauss is Belphegor, because despite having the power and money of the Ushiromiya family, he squanders it and feels too self-assured of his position as the heir to actually earn it, compared to Eva.

I am having my doubts as to whether the roles that the stakes provide are static. I do not think that we think in absolutes about this. If we could think of the seven sisters as classes like that of a RPG, it may be that characters can take up them depending on the situation or fragment and maybe they can be promoted like pieces of a chessboard. I cannot provide concrete rules as to who is who and when they are, but I can provide something that keys Lucifer to Rudolf and therefore Natsuhi and Rudolf would be incorrect in your hypothesis.

Both 'Lu' and 'Ru' (ル or 留) in Rudolf and Lucifer sound the same in Japanese. Lucifer's servant parallel in EP7 is Runon (ルノン or 瑠音). If you look closely, you can see that the '瑠' is '王' (King) + Rudolf's '留'.

I am curious if you can reconcile this with your personal hypothesis? I know you have a knowledge of japanese and would love to hear your take.

[AuraTwilight]

I would counter with "I genuinely don't believe that naming pun is Ryukishi's intent since it's not consistent across the board, and he would insist on it if it were."

[Uberzaki]

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

I would counter with "I genuinely don't believe that naming pun is Ryukishi's intent since it's not consistent across the board, and he would insist on it if it were."

I am not sure what you mean by 'insist', since he has generally left things unexplained, and his interviews only cover a small amount of his incredibly long and puzzling work. I could also key Mammon to Maria and Asmodeus to Asumu using the naming conventions. I have not yet figured out what the other ones refer to. I doubt you are very interested by your last response, so I will not push it.

[RandomUser]

That stuff about the ru in rudolf and lucifer and runon also the kanji could very well be true considering the method of solving the epitaph.
Also I finally understand the real reason Rudolf and Kyrie didn't bring Ange to the island.

[Uberzaki]

Originally Posted by RandomUser

That stuff about the ru in rudolf and lucifer and runon also the kanji could very well be true considering the method of solving the epitaph.
Also I finally understand the real reason Rudolf and Kyrie didn't bring Ange to the island.

Don't leave me hanging, what is this real reason?

[RandomUser]

.Well, I'm not sure, but I think that they planned to do a crime in the island from the begining and while Battler was a necesity Ange wasn't.
Battler was necesary to their plans because Beatrice payed her accomplices beforehand to make a "surprise return party" to Battler and the certain accomplices are Kyrie, Rudolf, Nanjo and Kumasawa, while the obviously possible, but not completly sure are Genji (I'm 99.9999999% sure) , Natsuhi, Krauss and Gohda.

[jjblue1]

Originally Posted by RandomUser

I don't know if this was answered or explained in this large 4 digit thread, but is really true that Beatrice planned the entire mass-murder just to make Battler remember him?

Spoiler for Spoilers about the official solution. Read it at your own risk.:

Yes and no. In Prime (the real world) she just planned to commit Shinju, which losely is group suicide. While it seems insane in many cultures in Japan, as the family head, she can consider this option acceptable. Yes, even if the family didn't agree with it.
I'm not an expert so even though I sort of get the whole idea behind it, I'm not the best to explain it.
Anyway as she wasn't sure about it she structured the whole thing in such a way that her plan could be stopped... and it was.
One of the stopping conditions for her was that someone were to solve the epitaph and the adults did it.
The adults though argued and things went exactly in Ep 7 Teaparty.
Kyrie shot her but not fatally. She fainted then woke up and tried to go warn the others so as to save them.
She only managed to find Battler still alive. The two escaped, Battler thinking Eva was the culprit (it's the only corpse he hadn't seen), Sayo thinking Kyrie was still alive and out for their blood.
Battler takes responsibility for what had happened, wants to take her away from the island, live with her forever (basically fulfilling their promise) but she views herself as what caused the tragedy (even if she hadn't killed anyone) and is afraid he'll find out about her body so she drown herself. Battler tries to save her and ends up losing his memory.
Sayo's soul and part of Battler's soul ends up in the Purgatory/Meta World. Battler's soul is suffering complete amnesia so Sayo's soul uses the games to help him to remember.

Basically although she considered it, as she was alive she never killed anyone and even tried to save the cousins (from which it's possible to speculate she wouldn't have had the guts to kill people in the first place).

I hope this helps.

Originally Posted by RandomUser

I think that in the manga Battler said to Ange that Beatrice didn't kill anyone so was she really just trying to do a fake-murder game at first?

Nope. The plan was for a true murder game. It however remained just a plan and she didn't kill anyone..

Originally Posted by RandomUser

The people who received the money from the bank account were Ange, Nanjo and Kumasawa so are their family the accomplices in the real murder, well + Genji the loyal dog?

It's confirmed everyone received money, even if Ange discovered only that 3 people received it.

Originally Posted by RandomUser

In the third game the number 07151129 was a message to Battler or also a hint of one of the real accomplices in the real world?

07/15 is Battler's birthday.
11/29 is when Sayo became the family head. She views it as Beatrice's birthday.

Originally Posted by RandomUser

If every game has a bit of truth, does that mean that in reality every adult were accomplices, seeing that everyone has at least been the accomplice once in one of the four games (in that case the probabilty of being a fake-murder game which went out of control is high).

As I've already said the truth is Ep 7 Teaparty but yes, in each game there are bits of it.

Originally Posted by RandomUser

Why the hell were bottles containing different explanation about the mass-murder found on the sea, was it maybe rejected plans?

Sayo created many plans and tossed them all in the sea, included the one she planned to use. It was another one of her stopping conditions. If someone had found them sooner the tragedy could have been stopped.

Originally Posted by RandomUser

Sorry if there are a lot of questions, it's just that I can't bring myself to belive that the mass-murder were only for "Battler, please notice me", because it's really enfatized that the heart is really important to a mistery and it can't be solved without understanding it and even though I managed to found a logical solution of the mysteries with the ShKanontrice (I belive that's the name of that theory that took me almost a month to concote), but the the motive doesn't seem right to me, so it's really nagging me that I just reached this answer because I ignored the heart (If Will hadn't said that stuff in his introduction I would never have this doubt).
Sorry agin for this long post.

Originally Posted by RandomUser

Thanks for the reply.
About the bottled messages, I just don't understand the reason for writing it except maybe for Tohya to organize his memories better or one of the possible plans of Beatrice and she wanted to replicate that mystery book ending she liked.

Tohya didn't wrote the message bottles he wrote forgeries he posted in the internet. The first was because he wanted to pin the blame on Eva, as he started to remember things and believed she was the culprit. Then... he found himself involved before he realized it.

Originally Posted by RandomUser

Also if Beatrice was really the culprit, Eva didn't need to hide the truth for Ange, except if the accomplices helped Beatrice willingly and those accomplices were Eva or Battler (I don't think it possible because in the first four games he wasn't the culprit stated in red, but if he really were an accomplice then Tohya had a reason for not wanting to become Battler) or Battler + Kyrie + Rudolf or Kyrie + Rudolf.

In Prime the culprits were Kyrie and Rudolf. Kyrie would do everything for Rudolf and has no morals. Rudolf... let himself be dragged in by Kyrie. His morals are also low.

Originally Posted by RandomUser

If I'm seeing the heart of the mystery, it would make much more sense that the actual killers were Ange's family while Shanon only wanted to make an interesting party for Battler to remember his promise and my theory for that is:
1) Shanon motive doesn't make sense unless she was a real phycopath + Heavy Yandere.

You basically have to split the motive in two. There's a motive for when she was alive, and one for when she's dead. Both make sense, especially if you consider her cultural setting and the situation she's in. But I recommend to read the manga because it's really explained better.

Originally Posted by RandomUser

4) The final game, the game which Battler made for Ange was actually a halloween party, in the second game halloween was a motif, halloween is the ceremony of witches and also one where the dead people return to the mortal world. The connection I made were the party and the dead people returning which I interpret as a fun game + people faking death.

The whole Halloween party is a hint to how everyone is dead. In Ep 2 is said that during Halloween spirits can get closer to the living. The manga develops this better though.

Originally Posted by RandomUser

6) Beatice said that another tragedy, a minor one compared to the mass-murder, would ocurr if Battler had come a year after or a year before, so I think that Battler was the key to solving the epitaph and the adult would have started to kill each other anyways, it's just that the fake murder game made it possible to kill everyone.

Clair is actually wrong. As long as the epitaph exists and the adults are short in money and in discord the tragedy will strike regardless, as proved by Lion's world in which there's no Sayo making plans nor Battler returns.

However I think the whole thing is that she believes if Battler had returned sooner she wouldn't have felt so desperate to plan a Shinju... if Battler had returned later she wouldn't have set everything up as a murder game, making things way less mysterius (the island would have exploded but no message of the witch would have been delivered) or she would have killed herself, or she would have left with George and Kanon would disappear mysteriously.

Originally Posted by RandomUser

Please someone comment about this theory and maybe contradict it because there are parts where even I'm not that sure.

Your theory is interesting but as I've already told you the official solution I can't really comment on it.

[RandomUser]

Thanks to the explanation, now it makes some sense to me, because Beatrice isn't a heavy phsycopath, just a normal crazy girl and I should really read the manga carefully and not just speed reading it thinking it was the same as the VN.

[haguruma]

Phew, holidays almost over and actually some movement in here.

Originally Posted by RandomUser

Thanks to the explanation, now it makes some sense to me, because Beatrice isn't a heavy phsycopath, just a normal crazy girl and I should really read the manga carefully and not just speed reading it thinking it was the same as the VN.

Yes, reading the manga really helps to better flesh out Sayotrice's personality and motivation. I wouldn't call her a normal crazy girl though, rather actually driven insane by circumstances.

Spoiler:

She started out as a gloomy but normal kid, but then her environment put gradually more and more pressure on her, much of which could have been prevented in the first place.
Remember that in the course of a few years she was experiencing severe forms of bullying, was dumped without further reason given to her, found herself in a relationship she doubted from the start, was told that she was an incest child with mutilated genitalia due to being a victim of attempted infanticide, found out that she was related to all people she could have relationships with, knew that there was no reasonable way for her to claim an inheritance that was hers, put under pressure by everyone around her (including herself) to make a decision out of many conflicting ones...

I think most people would break under that kind of pressure.

[RandomUser]

Yeah, most people would break under that kind of pressure, but not everyone would reach the answer of killing everyone, so to me is a normal crazy.
A phycopath would be one who became extremely crazy without a hard push.

[Apaula]

Originally Posted by RandomUser

Yeah, most people would break under that kind of pressure, but not everyone would reach the answer of killing everyone, so to me is a normal crazy.
A phycopath would be one who became extremely crazy without a hard push.

I mean, I'm sure most people in their lives have fantasized about killing other people. That's all she really did in the end. She didn't kill anyone, like Battler said, it was just something she attempted. It isn't known whether or not she ACTUALLY was going to do it. You get to read the stories, the gameboards where she DOES do it.

Yasu may be a little off, but I wouldn't call her crazy.

[RandomUser]

It's a fact that she pay in advance the accomplices, so she really was planning on doing a mystery, the thing that I'm not sure it's that the murder were going to be real or not.

[Apaula]

Originally Posted by RandomUser

It's a fact that she pay in advance the accomplices, so she really was planning on doing a mystery, the thing that I'm not sure it's that the murder were going to be real or not.

I don't even think Yasu herself knew that.

[RandomUser]

And that's the reason of all the fight between Kanon, Shanon and Beatrice.

[turlingdrome]

Originally Posted by Apaula

I mean, I'm sure most people in their lives have fantasized about killing other people. That's all she really did in the end. She didn't kill anyone, like Battler said, it was just something she attempted. It isn't known whether or not she ACTUALLY was going to do it. You get to read the stories, the gameboards where she DOES do it.

Yasu may be a little off, but I wouldn't call her crazy.

Not sure we can be that vague about it. If the gameboards truly depict Yasu's character, then she must have attempted it in real life. Otherwise, Ryuukishi is admitting that the culprit in the stories is an unrealistic one.

Sure, maybe Yasu wrote her stories more because she wanted to express her inner conflict, rather than creating a logically perfect mystery novel. Or maybe just writing it all down was good enough at relieving the tension that she didn't need to commit the crimes. But that doesn't explain why Ryuukishi would write a mystery that's intentionally broken, and spend most of the question arcs describing it in detail over and over again.

After all the time Ryuukishi spent telling us to spin the chessboard, and all the time he spent bragging about not revealing the answer, I'm not sure I'd buy that he intentionally created a mystery novel with a flawed motive.