Amagami SS - Episode 12 Discussion / Poll

[Vexx]

Originally Posted by Ricky Controversy

It's typically what the creators of such adaptations are banking on anyway. I can't imagine anyone actually going through these episodes and green-lighting it for good storytelling. The way I see it, Haruka's arc is typical quality for this fare; they stumbled into Kaoru's arc being good; Sae's arc is an example of how weak a story (and even character personality) you can get away with if you ramp up the mass moe appeal.

I'd call that a pretty good assessment ... I've seen the material for a couple of the other arcs so it'll be interesting to see how they handle it. There is the occasional gem... it is all the sorting through that occasionally gets annoying. One shouldn't always "wait for someone else to sort through the pile"

[Ricky Controversy]

Originally Posted by Vexx

I'd call that a pretty good assessment ... I've seen the material for a couple of the other arcs so it'll be interesting to see how they handle it. There is the occasional gem... it is all the sorting through that occasionally gets annoying. One shouldn't always "wait for someone else to sort through the pile"

Eh, I'm all for being the one to wade into the sewage and sift around. Besides, as a literature professor of mine once said, there is more joy to be had in life if you try to find the good in every work of art. So while Sae and her arc were both very weak in my eyes, I appreciated what I could which, oddly, was the lemony narrator everyone else hated.

I felt like the snarky spin Joji (or should it be JOOOOOOJIIIIIIII now because of SYD?) put on things with his condescending tone was great. Although I was sort of expecting him to just randomly start saying "Emiya Shirou..." at some points.

[BetoJR]

I really must not be in the general intended audience for this arc... couldn't really enjoy any of it. I guess, maybe, the onsen visit was funny, but... all the rest? Rather mediocre. And I cannot like characters like Sae, either (let's not get into the main male protagonist, here). Anyways, the ending to it was rather amusing. Now, let's move on to the swimming club kohai!

[DJLowrider]

Originally Posted by Ricky Controversy

I felt like the snarky spin Joji (or should it be JOOOOOOJIIIIIIII now because of SYD?) put on things with his condescending tone was great. Although I was sort of expecting him to just randomly start saying "Emiya Shirou..." at some points.

I was hoping he'd start one of the episodes with, "Mesdames, Messieurs, Bonsoir." And then recap the previous episode in French. Jouji will ever be The Count in my mind, simply because he was brilliant in that role.

[DragoZERO]

Originally Posted by Vexx

I think its interesting how many posters focus on the girls themselves rather than whether the stories were compelling, entertaining, or well-written... but that seems to be typical of many threads on 'choose the girl' VN adaptations.

Well, when the only good thing is the girl...what other choice do you have?

[Kanon]

Originally Posted by DJLowrider

I was hoping he'd start one of the episodes with, "Mesdames, Messieurs, Bonsoir." And then recap the previous episode in French. Jouji will ever be The Count in my mind, simply because he was brilliant in that role.

I feel exactly the same. The Count will forever remain his best role for me.

Originally Posted by DragoZERO

Well, when the only good thing is the girl...what other choice do you have?

Sadly true. The other reason is that the stories revolve entirely around the girls. If you dislike one of them, you're unlikely to like her story.

[Vexx]

Originally Posted by Kanon

Sadly true. The other reason is that the stories revolve entirely around the girls. If you dislike one of them, you're unlikely to like her story.

It *is* possible to appreciate a story even if the chosen girl isn't your favorite, just as it is possible to get annoyed about the writing despite the girl being your favorite. I don't *have* a favorite girl here, they're all charming in their ways - so I'm looking for a good story for each of them.

The omnibus 'parallel reality' format is much easier for the writing team than trying to integrate various story threads in the usual horserace anime. Therefore, I was expecting to get a set of very satisfactory romance short stories. They aren't totally failing but compared with other 1:1 or 2:1 romance adaptations they're churning out "B" and "C" grade results so far.

[Ricky Controversy]

Originally Posted by Vexx

The omnibus 'parallel reality' format is much easier for the writing team than trying to integrate various story threads in the usual horserace anime. Therefore, I was expecting to get a set of very satisfactory romance short stories. They aren't totally failing but compared with other 1:1 or 2:1 romance adaptations they're churning out "B" and "C" grade results so far.

This isn't meant to excuse them, but four episodes is a little tight for their stated goal. The main problem, I think, is that they seem to be married to the goal of getting the 'happy ending' in no matter what. In the cases where you have some history between the characters--Kaoru and Rihoko--the developmental burden is lighter so I can see that approach working. In the case of the other girls, however, you have to start from scratch in the first episode and end up with a relationship by the fourth? Even if they were capable of pulling it off, I don't know that it'd be the right way to go.

Sae's story would have been interesting to me if they had taken it much slower, and the arc ended with some hints at "Oh, they have started to feel things for each other," just before Sae has her job interview. Then there would have been some actual character there. Haruka, too, could have had a better arc if they had just built up to Junichi's first confession and rejection, but then as Haruka walks away, we see her smile and blush a little.

[Shiroth]

Originally Posted by DJLowrider

I was hoping he'd start one of the episodes with, "Mesdames, Messieurs, Bonsoir." And then recap the previous episode in French. Jouji will ever be The Count in my mind, simply because he was brilliant in that role.

I'd probably think of The Count if Jouji Nakata wasn't using his Momoko voice from Shangri-La for the narrator role here.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Vexx

It *is* possible to appreciate a story even if the chosen girl isn't your favorite, just as it is possible to get annoyed about the writing despite the girl being your favorite.

Agreed.

But if you downright *dislike* the chosen girl in a particular arc (and not simply like her less than one or more of the other girls), then it can be difficult to work around that dislike given how much screen time and attention is devoted to that girl.

I'm not saying that this applies to me (I haven't disliked either of the girls I've seen in the starring role so far), but I can see why a dislike for one of the chosen girls can make it difficult to get into the story.

The omnibus 'parallel reality' format is much easier for the writing team than trying to integrate various story threads in the usual horserace anime.

Actually, I have to disagree. It might be easier to tie a coherent plot and characterization for each key character together, but it's also harder to make the story (or stories) seem interesting.

No offense to fans of this anime (and I like it a bit myself), but I don't think that it's as good as Clannad or Kanon 2006 was... and I think that the format difference might be a big part of the reason why.

The omnibus 'parallel reality' format effectively removes any and all genuine romantic conflict, as the other five girls tend to be just secondary supporting cast characters for each of the girls' arcs.

So, instead of having the conflict of "Who will he go with? Who will he choose?", or the drama of "How will he let her down? How will she take it?", or wondering if the girls can get along in spite of how they're all interested in the same guy, it's a much milder progression of just watching Junichi gradually win over one specific girl per four episode arc, and that's that.

Most of the great romances of fiction, going at least as far back as Romeo and Juliet, tend to have real conflict within them (in the case of Romeo and Juliet, it was the conflict between their respective families).

These Amagami SS stories have no conflict, or very little conflict, and that means they're a bit less engaging, imo.

Keep in mind that with the game source material, the conflict is still there; the conflict is there for the player who has to choose which route to take.

Now, these stories aren't terrible. They're not all that bad. They're nice, fluffy romances with a few comedic and colorful elements, and even some genuine flourishes of inspiration on the part of the artists and scriptwriters (I really liked the touch of that English Director giving some words of romantic encouragement to Junichi). But the quality of the writing for each arc is very much limited by the format of the anime, and the length of each arc, imo.

[Shadow5YA]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Agreed.

But if you downright *dislike* the chosen girl in a particular arc (and not simply like her less than one or more of the other girls), then it can be difficult to work around that dislike given how much screen time and attention is devoted to that girl.

I'm not saying that this applies to me (I haven't disliked either of the girls I've seen in the starring role so far), but I can see why a dislike for one of the chosen girls can make it difficult to get into the story.




Actually, I have to disagree. It might be easier to tie a coherent plot and characterization for each key character together, but it's also harder to make the story (or stories) seem interesting.

No offense to fans of this anime (and I like it a bit myself), but I don't think that it's as good as Clannad or Kanon 2006 was... and I think that the format difference might be a big part of the reason why.

The omnibus 'parallel reality' format effectively removes any and all genuine romantic conflict, as the other five girls tend to be just secondary supporting cast characters for each of the girls' arcs.

So, instead of having the conflict of "Who will he go with? Who will he choose?", or the drama of "How will he let her down? How will she take it?", or wondering if the girls can get along in spite of how they're all interested in the same guy, it's a much milder progression of just watching Junichi gradually win over one specific girl per four episode arc, and that's that.

Most of the great romances of fiction, going at least as far back as Romeo and Juliet, tend to have real conflict within them (in the case of Romeo and Juliet, it was the conflict between their respective families).

These Amagami SS stories have no conflict, or very little conflict, and that means they're a bit less engaging, imo.

Keep in mind that with the game source material, the conflict is still there; the conflict is there for the player who has to choose which route to take.

Now, these stories aren't terrible. They're not all that bad. They're nice, fluffy romances with a few comedic and colorful elements, and even some genuine flourishes of inspiration on the part of the artists and scriptwriters (I really liked the touch of that English Director giving some words of romantic encouragement to Junichi). But the quality of the writing for each arc is very much limited by the format of the anime, and the length of each arc, imo.

No, because even in the game, there really isn't much conflict to any of the girl's stories. The player may get to choose which girl to spend his time with, but Junichi himself isn't conflicted with choosing the right girl, because he often has eyes only for one girl -- the one the player chooses. The game does not have all the girls falling in love with Junichi, and likewise, the anime doesn't either.

The anime is doing its best to keep it accurate to the game story (presumably each character's best ending). Changing it having all the girls liking Junichi at once would deviate from the game and risk degerating into a generic harem anime with a non canon plot.

[Ricky Controversy]

Originally Posted by Shadow5YA

The anime is doing its best to keep it accurate to the game story (presumably each character's best ending). Changing it having all the girls liking Junichi at once would deviate from the game and risk degerating into a generic harem anime with a non canon plot.

Conversely, it'd also create the opportunity for a story with interesting storytelling, provided it was handled skillfully. Creating a good story always involves risk, but if you tell the safest stories you can (as in this show), you will only ever create something mediocre at best. That's okay for the purpose of the show, though.

The truth is that anyone going into this expecting good storytelling had the wrong mindset. Let's be pleasantly surprised by what high points we do get, but not expect anything groundbreaking.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Shadow5YA

No, because even in the game, there really isn't much conflict to any of the girl's stories. The player may get to choose which girl to spend his time with, but Junichi himself isn't conflicted with choosing the right girl, because he often has eyes only for one girl -- the one the player chooses. The game does not have all the girls falling in love with Junichi, and likewise, the anime doesn't either.

Well, it probably would have been better if I said that the game's element of interactive choice (for the player) makes the lack of conflict less of an issue than it can be when watching passive entertainment (like an anime).

Interactive entertainment (a video game) is very different from passive entertainment (such as an anime). What works in one will not necessarily work in the other.

This is why when you adapt something from an interactive media to a passive one (or vice versa), changes are arguably *called for*, imo. I can understand the "stay as faithful to the source material as possible" line of thinking when it comes to going from a novel or a manga to an anime (passive to passive), but when going from game to anime (interactive to passive), I think that it can be a bit more debatable.

That being said, this omnibus 'parallel reality' format might be best for Amagami SS. I don't know if the male lead here would hold up well in a Clannad/Kanon 2006 type of narrative.

However, I'd hate for this to become the new format standard for eroge adaptations in general. If it does, we'll never again see an anime like Clannad or Kanon 2006, and I'd be disappointed by that.

An anime or two of soft, fluffy, "play it safe" romance stories may be fine, but I'd hate to see the entire
eroge-to-anime genre be defined by that style.

Originally Posted by Ricky Controversy

Conversely, it'd also create the opportunity for a story with interesting storytelling, provided it was handled skillfully. Creating a good story always involves risk, but if you tell the safest stories you can (as in this show), you will only ever create something mediocre at best. That's okay for the purpose of the show, though.

The truth is that anyone going into this expecting good storytelling had the wrong mindset. Let's be pleasantly surprised by what high points we do get, but not expect anything groundbreaking.

Good points.

[Vexx]

Pretty much on the same page with Triple R and Rick's comments. I don't hate the series but it is proving to be fairly "disposable" entertainment. The omnibus format is "safe" ... I *prefer* a well-written tight bit of drama (e.g. Clannad, Canvas 2, etc) though there is the rare 1:1 leisurely romance (e.g. Lamune, Toradora!, Spice&Wolf, etc) but few of those are based on VNs... more usually LNs. I did relatively enjoy the first two arcs here with minor complaints. I certainly enjoyed Sae herself... just kind of feel she was not well treated by the story antics. The other similar story (with Ai) appears interesting - at least the manga adaptation was. Will simply see what the other arcs have to offer in diversion

[Hooves]

Amagami SS had a good 2 arc start with the romance, and a bit of drama being involved. But it just does not grip you entirely on it... Like Vexx said, there needs to be a tightly written drama scene like in Clannad.. Not exactly like it, but somewhat close to it. Sae's Arc was great, but not truly... "Want to badly watch it" except to see the cuteness of Sae.

But I have some hopes for Ai

[Francismeunier]

Originally Posted by Hooves

Amagami SS had a good 2 arc start with the romance, and a bit of drama being involved. But it just does not grip you entirely on it... Like Vexx said, there needs to be a tightly written drama scene like in Clannad.. Not exactly like it, but somewhat close to it. Sae's Arc was great, but not truly... "Want to badly watch it" except to see the cuteness of Sae.

But I have some hopes for Ai

You forgot also to add.....a good see able kiss. No it does not have to be a French kiss but I would like the lips to see and locked with a smooch....I mean come on! They can do it but will they?

[DragoZERO]

Originally Posted by Francismeunier

You forgot also to add.....a good see able kiss. No it does not have to be a French kiss but I would like the lips to see and locked with a smooch....I mean come on! They can do it but will they?

I always hate when they don't show the lip locking. They so much other stuff, but they don't do the actual kiss.

And Sae's arc was also disappointing since we didn't have another fetish kiss.

[Francismeunier]

Originally Posted by DragoZERO

And Sae's arc was also disappointing since we didn't have another fetish kiss.

At least there was more than enough ecchi parts. Way more than other arcs.

[Khu]

Kissing her practically was his fetish kiss...

(if you count moe as a fetish...lawl)

[Kanon]

Originally Posted by Vexx

It *is* possible to appreciate a story even if the chosen girl isn't your favorite, just as it is possible to get annoyed about the writing despite the girl being your favorite. I don't *have* a favorite girl here, they're all charming in their ways - so I'm looking for a good story for each of them.

The omnibus 'parallel reality' format is much easier for the writing team than trying to integrate various story threads in the usual horserace anime. Therefore, I was expecting to get a set of very satisfactory romance short stories. They aren't totally failing but compared with other 1:1 or 2:1 romance adaptations they're churning out "B" and "C" grade results so far.

Why of course, but if you outright dislike a girl, I think it makes it a lot harder to appreciate her arc. On the hand, you're absolutely right about the fact it is possible to get annoyed by the writing of your favorite girl's arc, in fact, that's sort of what happened to me with Kaoru's arc. Their terrible attempt at drama during her arc has helped me realized I shouldn't look for a good story in this show (Sae's arc only solidified that thought), I'll just enjoy for what it is: a fun and entertaining anime with an enjoyable cast recounting run-of-the-mill romances

And if by some miracle, the writing dramatically improves in the upcoming arcs, then great!